Armor Hit-Dice [PEACH]

[Amechra]

This is a bit of a weird, back-of-the-napkin idea, but I kinda like the idea of giving medium and heavy armor hit-dice you can spend as normal. The idea is that when you're resting after a fight, it can turn out that your wounds weren't as bad as they seemed, because your armor took the brunt of the blows. Once you've spent hit-dice from your armor, they're gone until you have a chance to repair it (I don't have any good mechanics for this yet - I'm not sure that Mending should sufficient to recover effective hit-dice).

For some rough numbers, I think something like this would be appropriate:



Armor Type

Hit-Dice



Hide Armor
0d8


Chain Shirt
1d8


Scale Mail
2d8


Breastplate
2d8


Half Plate
3d8


Ring Mail
0d10


Chain Mail
2d10


Splint
3d10


Plate
4d10


+X Armor
+X Hit Dice



And, before anyone asks, this is on top of the other benefits of wearing heavier armor. Yes, this might be a little excessive - I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it.

[Segev]

Maybe just give it to Plate? It's been noted to be out of whack expensive compared to the other armors.

As for repairs, make it take 2 hours of work with Smith's Tools. 1 hour (that specifically doesn't count as a short rest) if you're proficient. Or maybe 1 hour per die, and proficiency makes it 1 hour per two dice. Again, no short resting while doing this.

[DracoDei]

What is the point of 0d8 or 0d10? Just something for magic to stack onto?
In any case, this progression seems to value the jump from d8s to d10s very highly, rather than ranking by average total healing, but I could just be getting confused about which armors are heavier than which.

[Maat Mons]

What if you just carry around a bunch of spare Chain Shirts and change from one to another each time you rest? Then you don't need to worry so much about repairing the armor.

[Amechra]

Maybe just give it to Plate? It's been noted to be out of whack expensive compared to the other armors.

As for repairs, make it take 2 hours of work with Smith's Tools. 1 hour (that specifically doesn't count as a short rest) if you're proficient. Or maybe 1 hour per die, and proficiency makes it 1 hour per two dice. Again, no short resting while doing this.

Restricting it to plate might be a good idea, but I just wanted to put down a full progression.


What is the point of 0d8 or 0d10? Just something for magic to stack onto?
In any case, this progression seems to value the jump from d8s to d10s very highly, rather than ranking by average total healing, but I could just be getting confused about which armors are heavier than which.

Basically, the idea is that you get d8s for medium armor, d10s for heavy armor, and a number of hit-dice equal to maxed-out AC for that armor minus 14 (without Medium Armor Master).


What if you just carry around a bunch of spare Chain Shirts and change from one to another each time you rest? Then you don't need to worry so much about repairing the armor.

Sure, if you want to be capped at AC 15 without a shield and are willing to deal with the weight, that should be fine.

It's when you get your big ol' Plate that that strategy becomes a bit less workable.

[Onos]

This is an interesting take on armour, though I don't see any reason not to give Light Armour d6's/4's. Adding something like this probably means retooling armour costs and whatnot anyway so the plate discrepancy can be fixed alongside.

I like 1 hour/HD with smithing/crafting tools for repairs, though I'd probably restrict it to Proficiency only, and either a threshold (DC+10) or a Crit bonus of an extra HD. Add in a 1st level, scalable ritual spell for repairs to mundane objects - perhaps 2 HD/spell level?

Adding +X HD for +X armour seems a little strong, maybe half the dice size? Although that does then seem needlessly complex. Oh, and ringmail could stand to start at 1d10 to avoid the 2d jump for heavy armour.

[Amechra]

This is an interesting take on armour, though I don't see any reason not to give Light Armour d6's/4's. Adding something like this probably means retooling armour costs and whatnot anyway so the plate discrepancy can be fixed alongside.

I like 1 hour/HD with smithing/crafting tools for repairs, though I'd probably restrict it to Proficiency only, and either a threshold (DC+10) or a Crit bonus of an extra HD. Add in a 1st level, scalable ritual spell for repairs to mundane objects - perhaps 2 HD/spell level?

Adding +X HD for +X armour seems a little strong, maybe half the dice size? Although that does then seem needlessly complex. Oh, and ringmail could stand to start at 1d10 to avoid the 2d jump for heavy armour.

The main reason I didn't give light armor d6s is because it's dirt cheap, proficiency in it is stupidly common, and there needs to be some incentive to wear medium armor instead of light armor. Plus, it's a bit harder for me to figure out how many HD it should grant - my current system is "Maximum AC Granted By That Armor minus 14", which does weird things with light armor.

I'm also still unsold on having recovering these hit-dice only really cost time. My other issue is that Mending is a cantrip that exists, which should logically repair the damage to the armor represented by lost HD. I don't really want people to be able to repair their armor between combat and a short rest, because then you run into weird situations where you go into battle with a partially damaged suit of armor, get it repaired, and then suddenly retroactively took less damage from that battle. Hmm...

As for your last two points... I don't think the +X HD for +X armor thing is too strong, given that even a +1 suit of armor is a Rare item. By the time you get access to it, you probably have 9 or so HD of your own before any granted by your armor. At that point, adding one more is really just a drop in the pond. Also, there's less of a jump than you'd think - people who start with medium armor start with scale mail (2d8 HD), while people who start with heavy armor start with chain mail (2d10 HD). In other words, anyone with decent armor effectively starts off with two extra hit-dice.

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's a neat idea-- it should definitely help heavy armor feel, you know, heavy. For the repair, I'd suggest that it can be repaired as part of a long rest, costing no money but requiring either proficiency in smith's tools or Mending.

[Onos]

stuff

Perhaps a distinction between "streamlined" or stealth capable armours and "fortified" armours which grant the HD buff? As I mentioned, costs and such should probably be rejigged anyway if you're altering properties so you could still have - slightly pricier - HD-granting light armour.

It doesn't just cost time - if you go down the skill route it requires a Proficiency (and bait for Expertise), whilst also requiring supplies. This puts it in much the same realm as a healers kit. Mending specifies "a single break or tear" so I'd make the argument it's too weak for armour repairs - maybe if they also had the skill Proficiency.

More generally, armour repairs really just fall under "healing potions/spells/abilities" so as long as it's not completely free it seems reasonable to allow for repairs.

You make a fair point regarding the +X stuff, I tend to play around with things a lot at my table so I occasionally forget the standardised "power level" of things.

[Amechra]

It's a neat idea-- it should definitely help heavy armor feel, you know, heavy. For the repair, I'd suggest that it can be repaired as part of a long rest, costing no money but requiring either proficiency in smith's tools or Mending.

I kinda like the "during a long rest" idea - a lot of the "recover a hit-die with an hour of work" ideas are pretty good, but they don't feel very 5e to me.


Perhaps a distinction between "streamlined" or stealth capable armours and "fortified" armours which grant the HD buff? As I mentioned, costs and such should probably be rejigged anyway if you're altering properties so you could still have - slightly pricier - HD-granting light armour.

It doesn't just cost time - if you go down the skill route it requires a Proficiency (and bait for Expertise), whilst also requiring supplies. This puts it in much the same realm as a healers kit. Mending specifies "a single break or tear" so I'd make the argument it's too weak for armour repairs - maybe if they also had the skill Proficiency.

More generally, armour repairs really just fall under "healing potions/spells/abilities" so as long as it's not completely free it seems reasonable to allow for repairs.

You make a fair point regarding the +X stuff, I tend to play around with things a lot at my table so I occasionally forget the standardised "power level" of things.

Dang it, Onos, stop making me want to redesign 5e's armor system! It wouldn't be that hard, since we have a few variables to play with (granted AC, how many hit-dice you get, whether or not it gives you disadvantage on stealth...). I might see if I can cobble together a piecemeal armor system, because I generally like those.

Though I do see your point about how I might be a little too reluctant to allow people to recover the hit-dice - I really just don't want people to end up with way more hit-dice than I initially assumed, because that'll throw away any other balance I might have set up.

---

An idea that occurred to me is that, instead of spending the hit-dice during a short rest, you spent them when doffing your armor, and only if you've taken damage since you put it on? It's not a big distinction (you can doff/don your armor during a short rest just fine), I just want to make it clear that this is supposed to represent "I take off my armor, and we all see that I'm not as injured as I thought I was" and not "Oh no, John just got stabbed! Quick, put a chain shirt on him!"

I'm also thinking that Medium Armor Master would give you an extra HD, and that Heavy Armor Master might let you spend armor hit-dice to prevent damage, kinda like how Goliaths have Stone's Endurance.

[jjordan]

Like it. Balance it by giving repairs different costs/requirements. I can tell you from experience that it's lot easier to repair maille armor with a scratch kit than it is to repair plate armor if the damage is anything more than a torn strap or a blown rivet.

So plate gives you more hit-dice. But each hit-die costs more to replenish than lesser armors.

[Bannan_mantis]

I do like this but one suggestion, maybe instead of expending on a short rest you instead decrease the damage of attacks with them. It being expended on a short rest feels a bit too gamey in a way, like the armour's healing you, but if you use it in combat it'd feel more like the armours more dampening the blow and taking the force for you. This'd make sense for repairs since there's a limit to the force your armour can withstand before it becomes damaged.

This said this would make it more powerful since it's not a out of combat healing but instead a in combat damage reduction which would make it more useful.

[Onos]

*snip*

Ah, but it's so ripe for redesign!

Allowing repairs on long rests seems logical, though I'd set something down for outside of that as well. One thing I've been playing around with recently for a Dark Souls themed campaign is tying HD-expenditure directly to all healing, that could potentially help offset additional HD?

I'm not certain about linking the armour HD to doffing specifically, though you make a good point about rules abuse and it is fairly thematic. I'm concerned though for situations where the party wouldn't remove their armour (short rest with a high chance of being interrupted?). Perhaps separating character HD from Armour HD and allowing AHD to only be recovered if you wore the armour during combat and took damage?

With regards to the formula you used for this, it gives almost a perfect progression anyway - particularly if you incorporate stealth etc. - so you could reasonably dispense with it so light armour doesn't go awry.

Between what you and Bannan_mantis are saying about preventing damage, I'm toying with the idea of temporary HP instead. Maybe as an extra variable for the armour redesign? Column A: stealth, Column B: HD, Column C: temp HP equal to the low split of the HD?

[notXanathar]

I had a similar-ish idea, built around dealing with absurd hitpoint inflation, but I think mine is a little more radical. Essentially I would bring HP for humanoids of all kinds down a massive chunk, gaining HP maybe once every three levels. Additionally, armour class would be more like a dodging class, actually brought down by wearing heavy armour. However, your armour would have it's own pool of HP, which could reach the levels currently enjoyed by most high level characters. Of course the amount of re-balancing needed would be ridiculous, and it would make item progression pretty much mandatory. In addition it would deal with a thing that is hardly a problem by adding an extra level of complexity. Also, healing would have a very different role unless it affected items. However, if you can get past the fact that it is probably a broken and unwieldy system, but can't get past the fact that a wizard can take more than four crossbow shots, or are willing to homebrew an entire game system to fit around my absurd vision, I think this may have something for you.

In terms of what that means for you, I think it might be possible to implement armour HP pools on your smaller, more manageable scale, which might make more sense than extra HD. I would say that if you did that, you would probably have to consider what it meant for armour to be broken, work on carrying capacity so that it can't be ignored(which i do, but i don't know about others), and maybe consider how characters like the barbarian work, who tank but don't wear armour.

[Breccia]

If you're going this route, a few things you could consider:

1) A maximum reduction per hit, which can be modified by class features, proficiencies, and feats. A level 1 commoner in full plate, that's hit by a giant, should still be dead.

2) Things which bypass armor, like falling or psychic damage, or bypass some armor, such as lightning vs. plate mail

3) Abilities or features in this new system, like armor piercing attacks, with a cap on how much damage the armor was allowed to take (half, 10hp, or even none). Or "crushing" attacks that do extra armor damage. The maul-wielding fighter Rekt McFaceoff might be better at armored foes, simply because they do weapon damage to the victim's armor hit points in addition to whatever the normal attack's damage did because the wearer used the hit points. His ally, "Mithril" Shiv McGee, might be just as good by bypassing the armor, but his teammates wouldn't be able to benefit -- making McGee better at one-shot strikes but Rekt better at softening up enemies for his allies to finish them off.

4) Adding yet more kinds of armor to the list. A player might want a set with worse AC but better Armor HP.

5) Also, because hit dice are variable, there's room for quality of construction to kick in. Maybe the human hunter who comes into town once/week to trade his meat and pelts is an expert at making leather armor, and sells suits that re-roll 1's?

6) You'll need consideration for Barbarians, Monks, or others front-liners who don't use armor. You just cut their hit points, but they might have nothing to replace it with. At least give monks bracers or something.

But the biggest issue that comes to mind is repairs.

Older systems of D&D spelled out a few things, such as "fixing an item costs 20% of its value" and requiring a skilled artisan (which the PC, by skills, could be) and workshop.

Repair costs are a thing that needs to be addressed. Simply put, the player has to make a tactical decision about "spending" armor hit points when they don't know if they'll get them back. There should be consequences to their use.

Other issues can arise. Can you repair adamantium armor with iron tools? How about magic armor?

I would also suggest specific rules for specific spells used for this. If cure wounds heals 1d8 per spell level, maybe mending does the same?

I've heard this idea on and off but was never brave enough to try it. I did, however, run campaigns with two rules that you might find interesting.

1) In one campaign, one geographic region had Ablative Armor. Heavy Armor could be fit with ceramic plates, and if you had the right Feat, you had extra hit points you could use like your armor hit points. The big bonus was ceramic plates were great for cold, fire, acid, and lightning (being resistant, you could shift 5hp of acid to the plates and the plates would take 2hp) but could not absorb damage that didn't strike the armor, like poison gas and psychic. The plates could be replaced/fixed at many local armorers, but without the Feat, they were dead weight. You couldn't turn your body to the right angle to transfer the impact to the plates in a way that helped.

2) In another, a post-apoc setting, there wasn't armor added hp but there was item damage. Some classes got the ability to do "field repairs" which, translated to this context, would "heal" an armor by a set amount, like 5hp or 25%, but could only be done once/armor until the armor got real, professional repairs. Duct tape only holds things together for so long. Something like this would prevent a party from being reliant on a spell slot being locked away.

I suppose there could be oil of armor repairing as well.

P.S. Yes, someone's going to bring a bag of holding and 100 chain shirts. You know what, why not? They're all nonmagical, you can't swap out in combat, and it's not like potions of healing aren't available for gold. And it's not like +1d8 max hit points is the end of the world in a campaign high enough level to buy these items.

[Nifft]

I've always liked the idea of armor as an ablative defense, with its own hit points / HD / "damage track".

Your idea isn't exactly what I envision -- usually the armor takes damage into its own damage pool immediately, so you could see the effect of damaged armor in the middle of combat -- but your idea is an interesting abstraction, so I'm going to try to see where it could go.


Some things to consider:
- You might want to reduce PC hit dice, thus moving some portion of recovery into armor. This is a clear boost to heavier armor, which might be desirable, or might not.
- You might want to increase the HD size with class and level, so a Fighter gets more value from a breastplate than a Bard.

Combine the above into something like:
- For each ASI you reach in a class, your Medium armor gains one HD of that class's die type.
- For each ASI you reach in a class, your Heavy armor gains two HD of that class's die type.

[JNAProductions]

If you're going this route, a few things you could consider:

1) A maximum reduction per hit, which can be modified by class features, proficiencies, and feats. A level 1 commoner in full plate, that's hit by a giant, should still be dead.

2) Things which bypass armor, like falling or psychic damage, or bypass some armor, such as lightning vs. plate mail

3) Abilities or features in this new system, like armor piercing attacks, with a cap on how much damage the armor was allowed to take (half, 10hp, or even none). Or "crushing" attacks that do extra armor damage. The maul-wielding fighter Rekt McFaceoff might be better at armored foes, simply because they do weapon damage to the victim's armor hit points in addition to whatever the normal attack's damage did because the wearer used the hit points. His ally, "Mithril" Shiv McGee, might be just as good by bypassing the armor, but his teammates wouldn't be able to benefit -- making McGee better at one-shot strikes but Rekt better at softening up enemies for his allies to finish them off.

4) Adding yet more kinds of armor to the list. A player might want a set with worse AC but better Armor HP.

5) Also, because hit dice are variable, there's room for quality of construction to kick in. Maybe the human hunter who comes into town once/week to trade his meat and pelts is an expert at making leather armor, and sells suits that re-roll 1's?

6) You'll need consideration for Barbarians, Monks, or others front-liners who don't use armor. You just cut their hit points, but they might have nothing to replace it with. At least give monks bracers or something.

But the biggest issue that comes to mind is repairs.

Older systems of D&D spelled out a few things, such as "fixing an item costs 20% of its value" and requiring a skilled artisan (which the PC, by skills, could be) and workshop.

Repair costs are a thing that needs to be addressed. Simply put, the player has to make a tactical decision about "spending" armor hit points when they don't know if they'll get them back. There should be consequences to their use.

Other issues can arise. Can you repair adamantium armor with iron tools? How about magic armor?

I would also suggest specific rules for specific spells used for this. If cure wounds heals 1d8 per spell level, maybe mending does the same?

I've heard this idea on and off but was never brave enough to try it. I did, however, run campaigns with two rules that you might find interesting.

1) In one campaign, one geographic region had Ablative Armor. Heavy Armor could be fit with ceramic plates, and if you had the right Feat, you had extra hit points you could use like your armor hit points. The big bonus was ceramic plates were great for cold, fire, acid, and lightning (being resistant, you could shift 5hp of acid to the plates and the plates would take 2hp) but could not absorb damage that didn't strike the armor, like poison gas and psychic. The plates could be replaced/fixed at many local armorers, but without the Feat, they were dead weight. You couldn't turn your body to the right angle to transfer the impact to the plates in a way that helped.

2) In another, a post-apoc setting, there wasn't armor added hp but there was item damage. Some classes got the ability to do "field repairs" which, translated to this context, would "heal" an armor by a set amount, like 5hp or 25%, but could only be done once/armor until the armor got real, professional repairs. Duct tape only holds things together for so long. Something like this would prevent a party from being reliant on a spell slot being locked away.

I suppose there could be oil of armor repairing as well.

P.S. Yes, someone's going to bring a bag of holding and 100 chain shirts. You know what, why not? They're all nonmagical, you can't swap out in combat, and it's not like potions of healing aren't available for gold. And it's not like +1d8 max hit points is the end of the world in a campaign high enough level to buy these items.

Lots of interesting ideas-but remember. KISS.

It's good stuff to think about, but some of that stuff is best left off in 5E, because 5E is designed to be a relatively intuitive game.

[Segev]

What if, instead of rolling the hit dice the armor provides during a short rest, the armor has hit dice of "temporary hit points?"

When you take damage, you can spend and roll any number of the armor's hit dice and gain that many temporary hp. These temporary hp go away at the start of your next turn. Spend (say) 2 hours repairing it to recover the hit dice.