What a real guard's stat block should be.

[Kobold_paladin?]

Hi everyone!
So I couldn't help but notice that the guard stat block in DMG was a more physically fit commoner with cruddy weapons and armor. No intimidation, which a guard should have if they want to stop yelling "halt" like a suggestion rather than an order. These to me are militia, not guards. I'd like to remake the statistics for the guard but I'm drawing a blank because I have a session later and am focused on that. Thanks for the help.

[HappyDaze]

Hi everyone!
So I couldn't help but notice that the guard stat block in DMG was a more physically fit commoner with cruddy weapons and armor. No intimidation, which a guard should have if they want to stop yelling "halt" like a suggestion rather than an order. These to me are militia, not guards. I'd like to remake the statistics for the guard but I'm drawing a blank because I have a session later and am focused on that. Thanks for the help.

These guards are basic combatants. They are not Spartan warriors. However, I've used that stat block for common mercenaries that our PCs have hired, and a group of six guards has been quite effective in support of tougher leaders (our PCs are currently 4th level).

[Kobold_paladin?]

These guards are basic combatants. They are not Spartan warriors. However, I've used that stat block for common mercenaries that our PCs have hired, and a group of six guards has been quite effective in support of tougher leaders (our PCs are currently 4th level).
I'm not expecting them to be champions, I just want something that actually would be an effective invader. Yes, don't underestimate them but still, when I look at that stat block labeled "guard" my eye twitches.

[HappyDaze]

I'm not expecting them to be champions, I just want something that actually would be an effective invader. Yes, don't underestimate them but still, when I look at that stat block labeled "guard" my eye twitches.

These are fantasy mall cops and the guys manning checkpoints with numbers behind them. They are not meant to be "invaders" or even to stand up to such.

[Kobold_paladin?]

These are fantasy mall cops and the guys manning checkpoints with numbers behind them. They are not meant to be "invaders" or even to stand up to such.
Sorry, I used the wrong turn if phrase.
Let's say you're running a war campaign. The PCs cross over a hill and there's this huge battle raging. They get caught up in the tide and are attacked by some soldiers. What stat block should I use for them?

[NorthernPhoenix]

It should be variable. I've used everything from generic Guard to Champion and Warlord NPC for "guards" on the spectrum from fantasy mall-cop to elite imperial kingsguards.


Sorry, I used the wrong turn if phrase.
Let's say you're running a war campaign. The PCs cross over a hill and there's this huge battle raging. They get caught up in the tide and are attacked by some soldiers. What stat block should I use for them?

That depends on their level the level of the conflict going on, but "Knight" (CR 3) is a good start.

[Kobold_paladin?]

It should be variable. I've used everything from generic Guard to Champion and Warlord NPC for "guards" on the spectrum from fantasy mall-cop to elite imperial kingsguards.
Ok, I try it out. Thanks for the help guys!

[JackPhoenix]

Historically, most 'soldiers' and various guards/watchmen *were* conscripted or 'volunteered' commoners given some basic equipment and little training... with mail armor, Guards are actually better geared than majority of their real-world equivalents would be. Professional soldiers... men-at-arms... had better equipment and actual training, but they were few in numbers... best represented by Veteran or Archer NPC. Knights also fall into this category, but those are nobility, as represented by their even better (and more expensive) gear. Thugs fall somewhere between... they are better fighters than guards, but have worse equipment: they could serve as guards (and they *do* have proficiency with Intimidate) who are more skilled at beating heads, but are propably not expected to get into fights (hence their crappy armor). Bandits... beyond being, well, bandits.... could also serve as soldiers, more focused on ranged combat, as they have crossbows, but no proper armor or shield. Tribal Warriors are the equivalent of guards for less advanced civilisations, with worse equipment. Scouts are more specialized role, and wouldn't feel well in a large-scale conflict, though they would make good skirmishers. Noble has good equipment, but bad stats... better representing courtiers and later nobility that didn't involve themselves in fights than earlier feudal lords and knights whose life was focused on combat training.

Notably, a guard is comparable to a regular hobgoblin in one-to-one combat. Hobgoblins are better equiped, and as they are very militant culture, are better at working together, as represented by their Martial Advantage (which PC hobgoblins don't get for stupid reasons)... but their base stats are almost identical.

[Azuresun]

Historically, most 'soldiers' and various guards/watchmen *were* conscripted or 'volunteered' commoners given some basic equipment and little training... with mail armor, Guards are actually better geared than majority of their real-world equivalents would be.

Pretty much this. Don't compare them to PC's, compare them to Commoners.

[Damon_Tor]

Guards are the NPCs you use when you need a bunch of guys. If you made them stronger you wouldn't be able to put as many in a single encounter. The stronger version is the veteran: if you have a particular guard you would like to be a credible threat, make him a veteran.

They're also useful as hirelings. Their low CR makes them cheap for the PCs to hire if they feel like they want some warm bodies standing watch (you know, guarding) over their castle while they're out adventuring.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Pretty much this. Don't compare them to PC's, compare them to Commoners.

Personally i'd only ever use the "Commoner" statblock to represent completely helpless people. Even a huge but otherwise regular blacksmith or farmboy would be "bandit" or better.

[HappyDaze]

Personally i'd only ever use the "Commoner" statblock to represent completely helpless people. Even a huge but otherwise regular blacksmith or farmboy would be "bandit" or better.

The Thug makes a good burly blacksmith. Those two mace attacks are rough on low-level guys.

[firelistener]

It's a pretty good question to think about. I think deciding how strong law enforcers are tends to eat up a lot of my thought time and preparation as DM. Good thing to remember, in my experience, is the importance of action economy. Four PCs against only two guards will vastly favor the PCs, but ten guards of the same low strength are a much deadlier encounter.

[NorthernPhoenix]

The Thug makes a good burly blacksmith. Those two mace attacks are rough on low-level guys.

Thug is definitely a great multi-purpose statblock for any sort of tough but otherwise regular person, for sure.

[Kobold_paladin?]

The Thug makes a good burly blacksmith. Those two mace attacks are rough on low-level guys.
I'd give him a light hammer if he was a blacksmith.

[TigerT20]

I'd give him a light hammer if he was a blacksmith.

Not a warhammer, for those especially big orders? Maybe even a maul if this is some high-tech everything-is-metal city.

Also a war pick + thug would make a miner (well, a war miner)

[Deathtongue]

Narratively speaking, I think Thug is way too strong of a stat block for typical commoners, even ones we'd expect to be strong like blacksmiths and militiamen. The Thug has stats and abilities only slightly worse than a level 3-4 fighter, held back mostly by their gear. 32 hp and double-attack is a big deal, especially at very low level. Bandit should be used instead.

[HappyDaze]

Narratively speaking, I think Thug is way too strong of a stat block for typical commoners, even ones we'd expect to be strong like blacksmiths and militiamen. The Thug has stats and abilities only slightly worse than a level 3-4 fighter, held back mostly by their gear. 32 hp and double-attack is a big deal, especially at very low level. Bandit should be used instead.

Sometimes it's nice for a "nobody" to emerge from the crowd and remind players that not everyone is a basic as they might appear.

[NorthernPhoenix]

Sometimes it's nice for a "nobody" to emerge from the crowd and remind players that not everyone is a basic as they might appear.

Yeah that was my thought too. In my vision of 5e, not everyone is a complete scrub or a monster/super-person. There's a space in between for competent and strong, but sub-monster/sub-player humans/people.

[Deathtongue]

Sometimes it's nice for a "nobody" to emerge from the crowd and remind players that not everyone is a basic as they might appear.To what end? And why would you do it via an NPC that can, assuming equal gear, fight about as well as a level 3-4 PC fighter? Especially since Thugs don't natively come with vocational skills or proficiencies aside from Intimidate.

[No brains]

Maybe they have misleading names, but Noble could be a slightly hardier guard and Bandit Captain could be a guard who can really back up their threats.

[Connington]

Regardless of their suitability as random blacksmiths, Thugs make great leaders for little bands of Guards. They're tough and proficient in Intimidation. Likewise, if you take a Scout and swap out the proficiency in Survival and Nature for Insight and Investigation, suddenly you've got a canny and dangerous Watchman. If you're in the big city or anywhere else where the guards are really nothing to mess with, have the Thugs and Scouts led by a Knight or a Veteran.

Level of tactics can also differentiate opponents. If you have two groups of X CR 1/8 opponents, but one acts like a mob of individuals flee at 1/2 HP and the acts like a disciplined unit that concentrates fire on soft targets, fights bravely and watches each other's backs, the PCs will feel the difference.

Finally, if the setting calls for it and you really want to screw with the PCs: Make one of the guards a Bardic equivalent to the Acolyte. Give them some Bardic Inspiration to hand out and some first spells like Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds.

[Mr Adventurer]

Sometimes it's nice for a "nobody" to emerge from the crowd and remind players that not everyone is a basic as they might appear.

Yes, exactly, that's why not every blacksmith or big guy should have Thug stats.

[Kobold_paladin?]

So, I guess thugs are guards now for me.

[MaxWilson]

Sorry, I used the wrong turn if phrase.
Let's say you're running a war campaign. The PCs cross over a hill and there's this huge battle raging. They get caught up in the tide and are attacked by some soldiers. What stat block should I use for them?

How many is "some"? If there's a platoon of 40 of them I'd use Guards. If there's an elite special forces squad of 4 of them I'd use Veterans.

[HappyDaze]

Yes, exactly, that's why not every blacksmith or big guy should have Thug stats.

No, of course not, but the occasional big guy (e.g., butcher, stevedore, etc.) with Thug stats is fine.

As for not having "vocational skills," do any of the entries in the Monster Manual have tool proficiencies?

[Deathtongue]

No, of course not, but the occasional big guy (e.g., butcher, stevedore, etc.) with Thug stats is fine.I don't think it's fine, not without an explanation such as 'this dockworker used to break arms for the mob until he reformed himself' or 'she used to be part of an elite retinue until she deserted'. A thug, equipment-for-equipment, is the match of a level 3-4 fighter. Unless level 4 fighters are supposed to be a common thing in your world, I think a PC would feel justified in feeling like you were trying to flex on their character with a random NPC.

[NorthernPhoenix]

So, I guess thugs are guards now for me.

They're a decent pick for some tougher, perhaps more serious guys. It's always good to remember the context you want the "guards" to appear in. The generic NPC statblocks can be reflavoured super easily to reflect the breadth of non-adventure, non-superNPC competence across the setting you're running.


I don't think it's fine, not without an explanation such as 'this dockworker used to break arms for the mob until he reformed himself' or 'she used to be part of an elite retinue until she deserted'. A thug, equipment-for-equipment, is the match of a level 3-4 fighter. Unless level 4 fighters are supposed to be a common thing in your world, I think a PC would feel justified in feeling like you were trying to flex on their character with a random NPC.

People with Action Surge or Battlemaster powers, GWM and who knows what else are probably very rare in my world too, but "normal" people who can handle themselves in a fight at the most basic level are much more common.

[JellyPooga]

I don't think it's fine, not without an explanation such as 'this dockworker used to break arms for the mob until he reformed himself' or 'she used to be part of an elite retinue until she deserted'. A thug, equipment-for-equipment, is the match of a level 3-4 fighter. Unless level 4 fighters are supposed to be a common thing in your world, I think a PC would feel justified in feeling like you were trying to flex on their character with a random NPC.

It depends on several factors, but the main one is the level of the PCs. If they're well into Tier 3, then it's not going to matter one whit to them if you're using Commoner stats or Thug; either are just chaff to them. If they're level 1, on the other hand, then the difference is immensely important. It's worth bearing in mind that when it comes to NPCs that aren't differentiated by gross physical features (e.g. a goblin vs. an orc, as opposed to a commoner vs. a thug), the players aren't going to notice much, if anything, that you don't point out yourself.

For instance; if you describe a "rough looking crowd of guards, glaring at you for the crime they watched you commit, halberds leveled in your general direction", then the only time they'll realise that they're facing off against Thug stats as opposed to Guard or Bandit is if you tell them as much and/or in how difficult the combat plays out.

World building comes second place to Encounter building. Sure, maybe this particular guard or dockworker did break arms for the local mob before he got clean...the players will never know either way, so who cares *why* he has the right stats you need for *this* particular encounter? Maybe the Players *are* facing off against the local guards best and brightest; why? Maybe because the PD decided they were needed for that response, maybe the PC's were just unlucky...the reason is irrelevant. Build the encounter and then make up the reason. Even in Combat as War this is the case; "such and such" location needs to be "X" difficult because it has "Y" reward comes before what the location is, who/what is guarding it and what "Y" is specifically for the PC's to obtain.

[stoutstien]

I don't think it's fine, not without an explanation such as 'this dockworker used to break arms for the mob until he reformed himself' or 'she used to be part of an elite retinue until she deserted'. A thug, equipment-for-equipment, is the match of a level 3-4 fighter. Unless level 4 fighters are supposed to be a common thing in your world, I think a PC would feel justified in feeling like you were trying to flex on their character with a random NPC.

They are common enough for the party to potentially fight against so it not a large leap to believe some decided to choose more legitimate career paths.

[HappyDaze]

I don't think it's fine, not without an explanation such as 'this dockworker used to break arms for the mob until he reformed himself' or 'she used to be part of an elite retinue until she deserted'. A thug, equipment-for-equipment, is the match of a level 3-4 fighter. Unless level 4 fighters are supposed to be a common thing in your world, I think a PC would feel justified in feeling like you were trying to flex on their character with a random NPC.

NPCs that are the equivalent of Level 4 Fighters are not terribly uncommon in my game. All of the major cities have several, and any large town might have a few.

If that gets a PC's fee-fees hurt, they should look for another game.

[JNAProductions]

NPCs that are the equivalent of Level 4 Fighters are not terribly uncommon in my game. All of the major cities have several, and any large town might have a few.

If that gets a PC's fee-fees hurt, they should look for another game.

Right, but there's a difference between "A small town's captain is about level 4, a big town has several level 4 folk, and a city has dozens," and "Every ordinary guard is level 4, about."

One makes sense, and still leaves room for PCs to be heroes. Even if other people could technically fight better, they have responsibilities, a home, and chose to not take the risk. If EVERY joe schmoe guard is level 4, approximately, then suddenly your level 2 PCs feel quite unneeded.

[Luccan]

Right, but there's a difference between "A small town's captain is about level 4, a big town has several level 4 folk, and a city has dozens," and "Every ordinary guard is level 4, about."

One makes sense, and still leaves room for PCs to be heroes. Even if other people could technically fight better, they have responsibilities, a home, and chose to not take the risk. If EVERY joe schmoe guard is level 4, approximately, then suddenly your level 2 PCs feel quite unneeded.

Reminds me of playing Morrowind. Early levels felt like every commoner could beat up your character barehanded, even if you were wearing armor and carrying a big sword around. I'd definitely advise that DMs avoid having "random" NPCs who can fight as well as PCs of any level. Most human beings are not adept warriors, even the burly ones.

[Zalabim]

I don't think it's fine, not without an explanation such as 'this dockworker used to break arms for the mob until he reformed himself' or 'she used to be part of an elite retinue until she deserted'. A thug, equipment-for-equipment, is the match of a level 3-4 fighter. Unless level 4 fighters are supposed to be a common thing in your world, I think a PC would feel justified in feeling like you were trying to flex on their character with a random NPC.
They're a thug because they don't have the equipment of a fighter. If your fighter is equipment-for-equipment with a thug, then you're probably in some kind of jailbreak situation. If you give a thug the equipment of a fighter, then they're not a thug anymore. They're a veteran or something.

[HappyDaze]

Right, but there's a difference between "A small town's captain is about level 4, a big town has several level 4 folk, and a city has dozens," and "Every ordinary guard is level 4, about."

One makes sense, and still leaves room for PCs to be heroes. Even if other people could technically fight better, they have responsibilities, a home, and chose to not take the risk. If EVERY joe schmoe guard is level 4, approximately, then suddenly your level 2 PCs feel quite unneeded.

I generally consider Tier 1 (levels 1-4) PCs to be "aspiring heroes" as they do heroic things that most people would never attempt while not necessarily being all that much better than the (top end of the) masses. I paint my worlds appropriately, and adventuring guilds are filled with such individuals, both PC and NPC. Dangerous places are often filled with their corpses.

[EggKookoo]

One problem with a random guard being the equivalent of a 4th level fighter isn't that it's not likely such a variance could crop up. The question is, why is he still just a guard?

By 2nd level, my players are making money hand over fist, at least compared to commoner levels of income. A person as capable as a high low-tier PC is going to have plenty of opportunities to make money. Sure, they may not want to risk their life as much as a PC might, but they'd be some kind of specialist guard to be called upon when needed, at least.

[NorthernPhoenix]

One problem with a random guard being the equivalent of a 4th level fighter isn't that it's not likely such a variance could crop up. The question is, why is he still just a guard?

By 2nd level, my players are making money hand over fist, at least compared to commoner levels of income. A person as capable as a high low-tier PC is going to have plenty of opportunities to make money. Sure, they may not want to risk their life as much as a PC might, but they'd be some kind of specialist guard to be called upon when needed, at least.

To me that's as good an explanation as you ever need. This guy would rather live his life getting payed to play cards, work out and take part in fights he can't ever lose rather than having a 10-50% chance of death every day/fight.

Same as if you're some farmboy who can wrestle an Ox. You probably won't ever lose a fight in your village or the next one over, but that doesn't mean you feel like risking getting shot up by goblin arrows, ambushed by giant spiders or whatever else sort of threat he can reasonably avoid by staying as a farmer. In my mind, the majority of non-adventurer people, regardless of ability, would generally want to reduce their risk of death each day to as close to 0 as they can get.

[HappyDaze]

One problem with a random guard being the equivalent of a 4th level fighter isn't that it's not likely such a variance could crop up. The question is, why is he still just a guard?

By 2nd level, my players are making money hand over fist, at least compared to commoner levels of income. A person as capable as a high low-tier PC is going to have plenty of opportunities to make money. Sure, they may not want to risk their life as much as a PC might, but they'd be some kind of specialist guard to be called upon when needed, at least.

Not everyone rises to the fullness of their potential. There are plenty of examples IRL of people with great ability making their way quietly through a mundane existence.

[Tes]

Hm guess the guard's statblock would depend on his training a lot.

Small town gatekeeper? Probably works out less than a farmer. Better at standing at attention than actually carrying that arming sword of his. +3 to hit CR 1/4-2

Militaristic Empire? Even basic town guards are part of the military, used to daily drills, with Sergeants mostly veterans of a war or two. Above average WIS, +3 in their Combat stat and Con. Those can give a run of the mill level 1 Fighter a run for the money with a +5 to hit and CR 1-4.

Filthy rich merchant city? Decent on the skill side and excellent equipment. Above average CHA, baseline AC of Plate, a little lacking on skills. +4 to hit and CR 1-3.


Doesn't take much effort to get some flavor in there if you know what you want to portrait. How do you want the guard job covered in your setting? Mall cop, basic soldier, drilled soldier, hired mercenary company or a ruler's personal standing army?

[KorvinStarmast]

Regardless of their suitability as random blacksmiths, Thugs make great leaders for little bands of Guards. That's what I tend to do for villages and small towns.

Finally, if the setting calls for it and you really want to screw with the PCs: Make one of the guards a Bardic equivalent to the Acolyte. Give them some Bardic Inspiration to hand out and some first spells like Faerie Fire and Cure Wounds. This also works.

So, I guess thugs are guards now for me.
I'd not do that until your characters hit 3d level at the least. A question was asked farther up "So I come across a battle, what do the combatants look like?"

I use Tribal Warrior, and I will vary the armor class by situation - up to scale and shield, for any squad, or squad(-) sized group of soldiers found somewhere.
{General} Tribal Warrior
Medium humanoid (any race)
Armor Class 12 (hide armor); or 14 Hide Armor + Shield. (spear is one handed or two handed, right?)
Hit Points 11 (2d8 + 2)
Speed 30 ft.
STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA
13 (+1) 11 (+0) 12 (+1) 8 (−1) 11 (+0) 8 (−1)
Senses passive Perception 10
Languages any one language
Challenge 1/8 (25 XP) (If I move the AC up high enough I pop this to CR 1/4)

Pack Tactics.
The warrior has advantage on an attack roll against a creature if at least one of the warrior’s allies is within 5 feet of the creature and the ally isn’t incapacitated.
I use this if they are soldiers in a local unit; town guards are as described further up; local someone's hired who don't have a lot of training, and can keep commoners in line.
Actions

Spear. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +3 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d6 + 1) piercing damage, or 5 (1d8 + 1) piercing damage if used with two hands to make a melee attack. I sometimes borrow from Bandit in this case, and add a light crossbow as an option, and other times I add a javelin or two as standard kit for these troops.

I think my break point on AC is if it's 15 or higher I increase the CR to 1/4. (Can't find my little scribbled notes anywhere at the moment)

[Kobold_paladin?]

thanks for the help guys!
tribal warrior with scale mail and shield is definitely an improvement!

[Mr Adventurer]

If you change their equipment, don't forget to check their new CR according to their updated defense and attack.

[Kobold_paladin?]

If you change their equipment, don't forget to check their new CR according to their updated defense and attack.

yes, i know.

[HappyDaze]

If you change their equipment, don't forget to check their new CR according to their updated defense and attack.

Only if you think it matters. I don't think the Challenge set-up is worth spending the time & effort for most changes. I also dont award XP, so there's even less incentive to count all the bits.

[Mr Adventurer]

Only if you think it matters. I don't think the Challenge set-up is worth spending the time & effort for most changes. I also dont award XP, so there's even less incentive to count all the bits.

Okay. The system will help you get a feel for when to think it matters. And anyway on the gripping hand, a Tribal Warrior with scale mail and shield goes from AC 12 to AC 16, which is a significant change that will absolutely make them more challenging to encounter.

CR does more than determine XP award. It's not the end-all of assessing encounter difficulty, but it'll definitely help guide attention to some of what's important.

[HappyDaze]

And anyway on the gripping hand, a Tribal Warrior with scale mail and shield goes from AC 12 to AC 16, which is a significant change that will absolutely make them more challenging to encounter.

Most of my group--bard, cleric, druid, and paladin--uses magic that involves saves (toll the dead, thunderwave, burning hands, vicious mockery, dissonant whispers, moonbeam, sacred flame, etc. so the effect of that change would be minimal, and in many cases, that 'significant change' just gives out more loot for little actual increase in difficulty.