Not-opitmised thrower build ?

[Condé]

Greetings dear people of Giant in the Playground.

TL;DR : Looking for a build for a thrower with only 1 class and 1 PrC or 2 but no more. You can skip the first paragraph if you want.

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I'm looking for a not-so-cheesy, regular, not "I try to trick my DM", convoluted-mixed-bag-of-18-classes-thrower build for my character.

We're actually level 12 and I have access to everything except PHB 2 / Dragon Magazines / Psionics.
In my party, there is :
- Aasimar Fighter/Paladin of Tyr. (Not always easy to play with but we love him.)
- Elf Wizard
- Elf Scout
- Human Warblade with a human cleric follower (Given by the Leadership feat)

I looked a lot of builds on the internet, a lot on GITP itself, and for the most part they are level 20 builds, over-optimised and barely even playable and not really thinked about the idea that you're going to play them from 1 to 20. People are, and I have nothing against that, trying to get the most they can of their class features and take advantage of everything.

I'm actually in a "standard" game. It means nothing, I know, but stay with me. What I mean by that is my GM is not a min-maxer, nor are the other players. And by that I do not mean I'm looking for crippling myself and I want to have an unoptimised build and work around something voluntarily bad... Just something rather simple.

I hope it is understandable and I do not sound harsh or anything. Again, I have NOTHING against min-maxer or whatever, just that we're not focusing on that part of the game and I want to have a somewhat justifiable character in term of roleplaying.

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Setting : Forgotten Realms.
Available Races : Core mostly.
Unavailable Ressources : Everything except hombrew (Obivously) + PhBII + Dragon Magazines + Psionics
Stats Array : 12|17|16|16|14|12 (We do not use Points Buy system, instead we are rolling our stats and I ended up with these. I think they're pretty neat.)

Hammer of Moradin seems fun to me as Bloodstorm Blade. Master Thrower is even more straightforward than the other two.
I'm not sure to something about the Bloodstorm Blade and couldn't find answers to my questions :

- Do you need Power Throw ? The answer is probably "No" but I don't know if you can spam Thunderous Throw and if it works with Lightning Ricochet. If it doesn't, I guess you'd prefer taking throwing feat and focus on Lightning Ricochet rather than just considering your ranged attacks as melee for just one or two turns and then... Go in melee ?

Hammer of Moradin looks cool but as far as I know, you can only make one attack (Not a full) while throwing your warhammer and have to wait the beginning of your next turn to have it back at you. (And have to stand still otherwise you just don't regrab it)
Is it possible to build something about having just a powerful, big strong single attack and still being "good" or does it just plain suck ? (As a reminder, I'm not aiming at being overpowered but I don't want to be a burden for my teammates.)

Any advice is welcome. Thank you by advance. :)

[ixrisor]

Warblade into bloodstorm blade is simple, pretty good, and contained entirely in one book (tome of battle)

[Saintheart]

Hammer of Moradin seems fun to me as Bloodstorm Blade. Master Thrower is even more straightforward than the other two.
I'm not sure to something about the Bloodstorm Blade and couldn't find answers to my questions :

- Do you need Power Throw ? The answer is probably "No" but I don't know if you can spam Thunderous Throw and if it works with Lightning Ricochet. If it doesn't, I guess you'd prefer taking throwing feat and focus on Lightning Ricochet rather than just considering your ranged attacks as melee for just one or two turns and then... Go in melee ?

If you go into Bloodstorm Blade, then no, you don't need Power Throw. The reason for that is because -- as you've suspected -- Thunderous Throw renders it completely obsolete. Thunderous Throw explicitly allows you to use Power Attack on your weapon throws, to its full extent, i.e. double your attack penalty added to damage. Power Throw doesn't allow that; it only permits a one-for-one trade of attack accuracy for damage. And yes, Thunderous Throw works with Lightning Ricochet as well - they're part of the same prestige class. Now, if you want a feat that helps throwers, try Brutal Throw - which outright switches your DEX for your STR with thrown weapons, which is generally going to be right up the beefy fighter's alley.


Hammer of Moradin looks cool but as far as I know, you can only make one attack (Not a full) while throwing your warhammer and have to wait the beginning of your next turn to have it back at you. (And have to stand still otherwise you just don't regrab it)

You've hit the nail on the head of the problems with returning weapons. Once you hurl a weapon with the returning quality, it only comes back at the start of your next turn. That's problematic because you're left unarmed for the rest of your turn, which means your ability to take attacks of opportunity is ... well ... nonexistent. This is why I recommend the Lesser Crystal of Return weapon crystal, which allows you to call a weapon to your hand from 30 feet away as a move action. It's not as impressive as Thunderous Throw which allows you to ditch that weapon and get it back instantaneously as a free action, but if you don't want to play Bloodstorm Blade, it's something to consider ahead of any returning weapon.

Hammer of Moradin would be a more optimal class if it allowed full divine spellcasting progression. As it is, the biggest problem with the class is that you have to take three levels in cleric and then go no further. It forces just a little bit too much generalisation. One way to mitigate its problems? Four levels in Bloodstorm Blade, which is perfectly doable since B.B. doesn't advance any martial adept maneuvers.


Is it possible to build something about having just a powerful, big strong single attack and still being "good" or does it just plain suck ? (As a reminder, I'm not aiming at being overpowered but I don't want to be a burden for my teammates.)

The issue really comes down to whether you're a glass cannon, i.e. good for that one massive strike and then weak as a kitten otherwise. I don't think that's so for a Bloodstorm Blade, and with a d10 hit dice, whilst you might not destroy everything in your path, Hammer of Moradin isn't that bad either.

[Gruftzwerg]

Since ToB seems to be allowed, how about a ranged ubercharger with some Bloodstorm Blade lvls?
You can decide yourself how much you want to optimize your dmg. Nobody forces you invest all you WBL into dmg items. Without the specific items the dmg become more sane, even for low optimization tables.

As for "optimized" build, have a look at my Hammerdin of Moradin build (see signature). The dmg is still on the sane side, even with magic items, and the biggest boost comes at lvl 20, so it will stay sane for a long time.

My ShurikeNado build is another ranged ubercharger build (see signature). Same as above, optimize so far that you are fine with your table.

And lastly a Duskblade Arcane Channeling optimized build (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?528541). Again, you don't have to go the full optimized route to have fun with the build.

[A.A.King]

A thrower should not rely on a single weapon. Bloodstorm Blade does make it possible to use a returning weapon to full attack but you can just as easily take the Quick Draw feat and carry a bunch of spare weapons. You probably won't have to make many ranged full attacks anyway afterall you're not an archer. You should be able to do just as well in melee as you do at range, your range just isn't far enough to expect to fell an opponent before he can charge you. If your opponent focuses on a team mate you might be able to stay in combat without getting targeted but when you have Warblade/Fighter Hit Die you probably should be there next to your team make to hopefully take some of the blows as well.

A great combination for the idea of using multiple weapons to attack is the Stormlord prestige class (Complete Divine) combined with the Gloves of the Endless Javelin. Stormlord is a prestige class for clerics of Talos (perfect for a Forgotten Realms game, but worshipping a CE deity isn't easy with a Paladin in the party) and it has some features that make any javelin you throw magic. Gloves of the Endless Javelin allow you to conjure javelins to your hand as a free action. You buy it once and never run out of ammo. A great way to make full attacks with good thrown weapons without being limited by the returning ability.

If you do intend to just make one attack each round, then being either an initiator or a Duskblade combined with Bloodstorm Blade is a good idea. One-Attack Martial Strikes from the Crusader/Warblade combine well with the limitations of the returning ability and Bloodstorm Blade lets you make martial strikes at range. Similarly, Arcane Channeling from the Duskblade also limits you to one attack each round and so combines well with a returning weapon and once again Bloodstorm Blade uniquely allows you to do that with a thrown weapon.

So something like
- Duskblade 4 / Warblade 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 / Duskblade X (if the game continues longer you should consider taking 2 more levels of Bloodstorm Blade once you reach Duskblade 13)
or
- Crusader 4 / Warblade 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 2 / Warblade +1 (3) / Crusader X

Though you could add more Bloodstorm Blade if you also want Lightning Ricochet.

[crankykobold]

This Thrower build will beef up your whole party. You need a dragonblooded bard, draconic heritage feat, and dragonfire inspiration feat. I ran this build once with one level of dragonfire adept( took the draconic knowledge incantation), Bard 8, Master thrower 5, I think one level of fighter cuz i needed the feat. Through items and song of the heart Inspire courage was adding 4d6 force damage(draconic heritage amethyst) I got on average +4/+4 from knowledge devotion. Throwing I think 6 darts a round at touch ac with master thrower tricks. Gave 4d6 force damage to my party as well.
If the whole force damage thing is to OP for your groups play style, do it without the dragonfire inspiration bit and it is still pretty good.

I did this before we ever looked into ToB, now I would probly try to work it out with warblade x, blood storm blade 4, bard x, master thrower 5. Use song of the white raven to stack warblade and bard levels for inspire courage.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm looking for a not-so-cheesy, regular, not "I try to trick my DM", convoluted-mixed-bag-of-18-classes-thrower build for my character.

Prepare to suck. Most of the tricks for making throwers worthwhile stray into controversial and often complicated areas. Probably the absolute simplest you'll get is Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade, which is essentially just a meleer whose "reach" is his range increment. Sort of. But if your DM isn't too hot on ToB, then the rest of your options are almost invariably "sucks for different reasons" or "legally cheating".

[ExLibrisMortis]

Druid 5/stormlord X with gloves of endless javelins and your usual archery feats. Simple, effective, fun. Not at all an optimal way to play a druid. It's more of a "stack a gimmick on a druid" kind of build, leaving your spells for backup, out-of-combat utility, long-term buffs, and generally flavour.

Pros:
Throw lightning bolts all day long.
Covers some of the divine casting that your party lacks.
Provides an excuse to conjure storms before big fights, adding instant drama.
Talos is an enemy of Tyr, adding even more instant drama.

Cons:
Your thrown attacks still suffer from miss chances in heavy winds. Ask your DM whether Storm Walk or Storm Ride affect your attacks as well as your movement.
Talos is an enemy of Tyr, making cooperation difficult.


As an advanced option, you can use the two Unearthed Arcana druid variants to turn your druid into a more barbarian/ranger-like "angry hunting druid"--note how appropriate this is for a druid of Talos the Destroyer. Basically, you give up two big class features (Animal Companion and Wild Shape) to get Rage and Fast Movement (as barbarian), AC bonus and Fast Movement (as monk), and Favoured Enemy (as ranger). You can then replace your standard barbarian rage with Whirling Frenzy--highly appropriate for a Stormlord--and pick a Favoured Enemy appropriate to Talos, like Outsider (lawful).

Your build would look like this:

Human druid 5/stormlord X.
1) Weapon Focus (javelin)
human) Point Blank Shot
flaw: Meager Fortitude) Rapid Shot
flaw: Frail) Endurance
(Between these two flaws, it's clear that you are not naturally tough, but your feats show that you overcame that weakness--presumably by camping out during a storm.)
3) Great Fortitude
6) Extra Rage
9) Extend Spell
12) Tormtor School

Note that all the "required" feats (basic archery feats and PrC prerequisites) are all gained at levels 1 through 3, and all feats after that are just suggestions. You can play this from 1 to 20 no problem, and emphasize spellcasting or throwing as the campaign unfolds.

At level 1, you're mostly just a druid who can throw javelins pretty quickly (two per round), and sometimes Rage for even more javelins (three per round). At level 8, with Extra Rage and +6 base attack, you're actually looking at four javelins per round pretty consistently, and each gets +1d6 electricity damage. Still not optimal by any stretch (total damage would be around 8d6+4+4*STR if all attacks hit, but your Strength is only about 16 while raging, so it works out to ~44 damage for a full attack), but hey, you're a lightning throwing druid.

There are a lot of cool weather spells in the PHB and Frostburn. Especially if you're going for icy thunderstorms. Between control temperature, control winds, control weather, gust of wind, boreal wind, frostfell, whiteout, and fimbulwinter, you can completely control the environment (so long as you want it cold and stormy). With snowsight and Storm Ride, you're invulnerable to your own storms, giving you a massive advantage. Just about the only way you could be more prepared would be to play a white dragon Stormlord (which you can totally do, by the way, but not from level 1).

[crankykobold]

I dont understand this advice for him to play an evil character in what I have to assume is a good party? How is that conducive to the roleplay? If you reflavor the class a bit to follow akadi it might work out ok.

[RNightstalker]

I'll second the Warblade/BloodstormBlade/MasterThrower idea. Not too overly complicated. If you really want to go simple, go straight fighter and have a bunch of ranged attack feats.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I dont understand this advice for him to play an evil character in what I have to assume is a good party?
Was I advising an evil character? I don't think so. A druid following Talos can be CN just as easily.

[jdizzlean]

there are a lot of options if you just go daggers. there's a crazy thread out there about making shurikens the end all be all weapon of doom, which is obviously throwing.

i have a character who i'm playing now in a pbp game that is throwing based. 2h power attacking throwing a large sword for a med char. it's pretty fun, but you still have your weaknesses. i did have an animated shield, and of course you can spend your money however you see fit, but here's an idea of a build. it does take awhile to get going however you build one.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2087298

12th feat would be:

12th feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery - Slashing (PHBII 82) any ranged slashing weapon you wield gains +2 attack/damage, and +20 feet range.
(( base range 10, +20 mastery = 30, far shot doubles to 60)

[RNightstalker]

12th feat: Ranged Weapon Mastery - Slashing (PHBII 82) any ranged slashing weapon you wield gains +2 attack/damage, and +20 feet range.
(( base range 10, +20 mastery = 30, far shot doubles to 60)

Unfortunately PH2 is out for this game.

[crankykobold]

Was I advising an evil character? I don't think so. A druid following Talos can be CN just as easily.

That's true. I still don't think you could properly roleplay clergy of those two deity in the same group without a lot of conflict that would get tedious for the other players. That's just my opinion tho.

The build looks like it would be fun to play tho, in the right game.

[Anthrowhale]

I really like Master Thrower 5 for 'Weak Spot'. Being able to leverage touch attacks means you can hit reliably, deal damage with Power Throw, and bypass damage reduction (which does not apply to touch attacks).

Edit: adding some details.

Halfling Fighter 5/Master Thrower 5/Fighter 2 using Str 14=16-2(racial)/Dex 22=17+2(racial)+3(levels)/Con 16/Int 14/Wis 12/Cha 12

with feats:
1: Weapon Focus(Dagger)
Fighter 1: Point Blank Shot
Fighter 2: Precise Shot
3. Power Attack
Fighter 4: Brutal Throw
6. Power Throw
MT 1: Quickdraw
MT 1 Feature: Defensive Throw
MT 3 Feature: Palm Throw
9. Rapid Shot
MT 4: Snatch arrows
MT 5: Improved Critical (Dagger)
MT 5 Feature: Weak Spot
Fighter 6: Two-Weapon Fighting
12. Improved Two Weapon Fighting

At this point, your baseline attack (vs. touch AC) is +20=+12(BAB)+1(Halfling)+1(Weapon Focus)+6(dexterity). You can also full attack with +16/+16/+16/+11/+11/+8 by combining rapid shot and Improved Two Weapon Fighting, with each attack role using 2 daggers. In situations where the touch attack is easy, you can trade attack bonus for damage. This is a 1-for-2 trade due to Palm Throw. You'll want a couple hundred daggers, but they are reusable as long as you win the fight. A dexterity enhancement item is super helpful since it feeds Initiative, AC, and either attack bonus or damage x2.

On second thought this might be to optimized...

Edit x2: Piggy's take is solid as well.

[Piggy Knowles]

I really like Master Thrower 5 for 'Weak Spot'. Being able to leverage touch attacks means you can hit reliably, deal damage with Power Throw, and bypass damage reduction (which does not apply to touch attacks).

Agreed. You can make a simple and effective thrower with just a fighter/master thrower this way. Using the requirements in the OP, with a minimum of classes and sources:

Halfling, Fighter X/Master Thrower 5
1 Fighter1- Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2 Fighter2- Rapid Shot
3 Fighter3- Weapon Focus (dagger)
4 Fighter4- Weapon Specialization (dagger)
5 Fighter5-
6 Fighter6- Brutal ThrowCAdv, Two-Weapon Fighting
7 Master Thrower1- Quick Draw
8 Master Thrower2-
9 Master Thrower3- Power ThrowCAdv
10 Master Thrower4- Snatch Arrows
11 Master Thrower5- Improved Critical (dagger)
12 Fighter7- Far Shot

Thrown Weapon Tricks: Palm Throw, Defensive Throw, Weak Spot

Books required: Player’s Handbook, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer

Just continue with fighter from there. Additional useful feats without involving any additional sources include Improved Precise Shot, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved/Greater TWF and Improved Rapid Shot. Weapon Finesse so that you can function competently in melee probably isn’t the worst, either.

BAB +12 alongside Rapid Shot, TWF and Palm Throw means you’re throwing out ten daggers a round. Put your 17 in Dex and make sure you have a 13 in Strength after racial adjustments to qualify for Brutal Throw (more than 13 isn’t necessary, though, since Palm Throw and Weak Spot don’t let you add Strength to your damage). Boost Dex at levels 4/8/12 and get the best gloves of dexterity you can afford. I’m away from books right now but I think you’re within WBL for the +6 gloves, but let’s go conservative and assume you can only find +4 for a Dex of 24. That still gives you an attack routine of +20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10 with just masterwork daggers. You’re making these attacks as touch attacks, and with Power Throw and Weapon Specialization, each one can deal some decent damage all-told. Plus, you have 10 chances to crit per round from a 17-20 crit range, which is not bad at all

If you’d prefer you can do shuriken instead of daggers. It requires an extra feat and is mostly inferior… except that shuriken can be priced and enchanted as ammunition, meaning the party wizard or the warblade’s cleric cohort can hit fifty of them at a time with a single casting of greater magic weapon. That alone makes it potentially worth considering.

It’s far from gamebreaking, but it’s solid damage for a low- to mid-op game, it’s simple and it only requires a minimum of sources, which is something that a lot of DMs appreciate. If you want to start optimizing beyond that you have a lot of options even within your sources - hit and run fighter from Drow of the Underdark to add on a significant amount of bonus damage whenever you win initiative, for example. Strongheart halfling for another feat. A warblade dip for weapon aptitude, blood in the water and some swift action movement. A dark moon disciple monk 7/master thrower 5 version with Assassin’s Stance and shadow blend for constant sneak attack with shurikens. Basically, you’ve got options, but if you want it simple and straightforward, fighter X/master thrower 5 won’t be terrible.

[Condé]

Thank you all for your answers, I really appreciate it.

There is some really neat builds, but some are not made for the campaign I am in, sadly. Even tho, once again, they look great on paper and fun to play with.

The stormlord looks neat. But as some noticed, I have a paladin of Tyr in my party sooooo... Couldn't make a necromancer, nor this class that can summon demons even so they're not evil themselves and btw... I can't build a stormlord because of that.
Plus, the paladin is a really great guy, and a "typical hero" and the party really like him. Even if sometimes, it's hard to follow his guidelines because of his alignment.

For the last two posts, I'm wondering...

• How do you manage to have 200+ daggers with you ? I mean, it's gonna weight a lot and you'll want to have them in your bag, you can't have 200 daggers on your belt or whatever. Is there something I'm missing to understand ? I don't think my DM would allow that.

• I'm seeing what could be a problem with throwing build... Let's pretend we have like 50+ daggers. You can't enchant them all to bypass resistance and can't bypass DR because of your low damage input which can be a problem I guess.
I like the shuriken solution for the +1 if they're considered as ammunition.

• Could the Gloves of endless javelins be a solution of that problem ? Do these builds work with javelins in replacement to daggers ?

Oh and could it be possible to make a big strong shot via the Hammer of Moradin Prc ? It's not going to be optimal by any mean, but the class have some neat options even if I think they're not great... But the flavor of the class is interesting.

Once again I can't thank you enough for your participation... But... Thank you again.

[Piggy Knowles]

Reasonably you’ll want to carry at least 50. Daggers don’t break or disappear after you throw them, so you can always collect them after combat is done, and if you’re making ten attacks in a full attack, that’ll reliably get you through five rounds. A small-sized dagger weighs half a pound, so you’re talking 25 lbs. total, which shouldn’t be an issue with a Strength of 14 (you need a 13 minimum to take Brutal Throw anyhow) even with the reduced carrying capacity of a small-sized creature. Extradimensional storage makes this even easier.

As far as damage reduction goes, it’s a definite problem for anyone making lots of somewhat weak attacks. Power Throw helps a bit, since it can give you up to +12 damage on each attack, but it’ll still carve a chunk out of your damage per round. As you mentioned, though, switching to shuriken can easily fix both issues, as they are both lighter and considered ammunition for purposes of pricing and enchantment. This means that you can either more easily purchase magical versions, or enchant them all in blocks of 50 with a single casting of GMW or similar spell.

As far as your question about the gloves of endless javelins, javelins won’t work with palm throw, so unfortunately you’ll cut your total number of attacks in half. There’s also the issue of needing a custom magic item regardless, since you’ll want your hands item slot for gloves of Dexterity. May not be an issue in most campaigns, but if you’re strictly going off of items that you can find in the books and no custom enchantments, it’s something to consider. If you were able to get something like gloves of endless darts instead, though, that would work.

Re: hammer of Moradin, it’s a neat class but it has some issues. Returning isn’t actually ideal for a thrown weapon because you don’t get the weapon back until just before your next turn, so you can’t make a full attack with it. The rest of the class features outside of power strike are flavorful but not actually that great. The real killer, though, is the 2nd-level divine spells requirement, forcing you into a really non-optimal entry. I think I’d much rather just go with a warblade/bloodstorm blade if my goal was to throw a single big weapon. You can capture a lot of the same flavor by using strikes and Power Attacking at range with your giant thrown hammer, and lightning ricochet is so much better for throwing than the returning property. A dwarven warblade 5/bloodstorm blade 4/warblade +3 dedicated to Moradin and wielding a big hammer could do pretty much everything fun that a hammer of Moradin might do but do it far more effectively.

[crankykobold]

I like the hammer of Moradin class myself. You can't enter until level 9 regardless of what route you take so Paladin 8 or Fighter 4/Cleric 4 are your basic choices. I've played one in City of the Spider Queen and it was great. Depending on how flexible your DM is you might be able to convince him to let you use the vital strike feats from pathfinder. You give up your iterative attacks for increased base damage.
If your game isn't really optimized I say go for it regardless, carry two hammers and get 1 or 2 least crystal of return so you can call them to you when you have to move.

[Anthrowhale]

W.r.t. damage reduction (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction),

Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks..."
which is one of the great virtues of master thrower.

[Troacctid]

W.r.t. damage reduction (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction),

which is one of the great virtues of master thrower.
This rule was clarified in later books. Touch attacks with weapons are affected by damage reduction normally. Sorry.

[crankykobold]

This rule was clarified in later books. Touch attacks with weapons are affected by damage reduction normally. Sorry.

Do you know which book? Cuz I thought this sounded like cheating.

[Gruftzwerg]

Re: hammer of Moradin, it’s a neat class but it has some issues. Returning isn’t actually ideal for a thrown weapon because you don’t get the weapon back until just before your next turn, so you can’t make a full attack with it. The rest of the class features outside of power strike are flavorful but not actually that great. The real killer, though, is the 2nd-level divine spells requirement, forcing you into a really non-optimal entry. I think I’d much rather just go with a warblade/bloodstorm blade if my goal was to throw a single big weapon. You can capture a lot of the same flavor by using strikes and Power Attacking at range with your giant thrown hammer, and lightning ricochet is so much better for throwing than the returning property. A dwarven warblade 5/bloodstorm blade 4/warblade +3 dedicated to Moradin and wielding a big hammer could do pretty much everything fun that a hammer of Moradin might do but do it far more effectively.

If you want to focus on the ranged aspect of Hammer of Moradin, you need 4 lvls of Bloodstorm Blade. In my build I added Pounce to have a ranged ubercharger. Its safer due to the ranged aspect compared to a regular ubercharger, high mobility and thus can charge under almost any circumstances every turn on a reliable base. The build enters Hammer of Moradin at lvl 10, one lvl later than it is earliest possible, but already has the Lightning Ricochet for the free action returning ability. This makes the build much more fluid and flexible. You should give the build a look if you like the Hammer of Moradin character concept.

[Troacctid]

Do you know which book? Cuz I thought this sounded like cheating.
Rules Compendium has the full updated wording.

[Condé]

What a rollercoaster. Though for a moment that's a lot of people were overshadowing the fact that touch attacks bypass DR... But, finally no.

Gruftzwerg. I saw your build and it looks awesome. Sadly, as I said in my original post (I think, I'll double check that and probably edit my post otherwise) I do not think I'll be able to multiclass that much.
All people playing at the table are suboptimal.

I'm playing a Dragonfire Adept and my DM think it's pretty busted. (Because of free infinite Identification, Slow breath even on failed check and my all new spammable solid fog.)
Since we're not min-maxer nor good player either (I suppose) I actually think the class is pretty op... And because I have something level 22 or 24 CON at level 11, 128hp and always flying. The paladin is probably our strongest character actually. Beside mine... WHo does not deal a ton of damage but is pretty ridiculous at controlling the battlefield.

That's why I don't want to use all these neat builds on you can find everywhere on the internet, because people on the internet want overpowered characters, because they are playing 3.5 for several years and can build everything they want. It's not the case at the table I'm in and a lot of peple are not hardcore or even core players. It's pretty casual so, as for fighting videogames, tiers list do not apply the same.

And I think Dragonfire adept is a pretty boring class to play. And I always wanted to try a thrower build.

Hope that'll help you understand why I don't want to dip on many classes / strange PrC too much. I don't want to be overpowered and let other players feel almost useless or anything. I am a GM myself and I sometimes feel bad to play the character I actually play because it seems so... Not in "phase" with the rest of the party. (Dragon Magic isn't even available in our language...)

[Anthrowhale]

Rules Compendium has the full updated wording.

Interesting, it looks like this was clarified via ommission---they just never mention touch attacks as an exception to DR in the RC.

Dealing with DR is more annoying in this case. It looks like Slashing, Piercing, Cold Iron, and Silver are cheap, so that leaves Bludgeoning, Adamantine, Lawful/Chaotic/Evil/Good, Magic, and Epic as sources to worry about. Shurikens would indeed help here, and Power Throw becomes essential in a worst-case situation.

[RNightstalker]

• How do you manage to have 200+ daggers with you ? I mean, it's gonna weight a lot and you'll want to have them in your bag, you can't have 200 daggers on your belt or whatever. Is there something I'm missing to understand ? I don't think my DM would allow that.
• Could the Gloves of endless javelins be a solution of that problem ? Do these builds work with javelins in replacement to daggers ?

As long as you have scabbards for them, you should be able to put them in a bag of holding or Heward's Handy Haversack.

I would ask your DM about two things:

-Can I make "Gloves of Endless Daggers"?

-How would you rule daggers being held in a Quiver of Ehlonna? The javelin and spear sized compartments won't have trouble throwing 24 daggers in there. It's the arrow compartment that holds up to 60 arrows...how many daggers would that equate to? Daggers are wider but shorter than arrows, and the quiver produces the desired item. If you really want to push your luck, ask how many daggers would fit in the space of a spear and javelin? Oh yeah, no matter what you put in the quiver, it always weighs 2 lbs.

[Maat Mons]

Sufficient ammunition is, indeed, a potential problem with thrown weapon builds. Well, "ammunition" isn't the correct word, unless you're throwing shuriken. But you get the idea. The typical ways of getting around it have already been mentioned, but to reiterate: Bloodstorm Blade, Gloves of Endless Javelins, Telekinetic Boomerang (not available to you), just carrying a lot of weapons, or custom items.

Another potential problem with thrown weapon builds is Multiple Attribute Dependance. You need high Dexterity to hit, and you need high Strength for Damage. The typical ways of getting around it have already been mentioned, but to reiterate: Bloodstorm Blade or Brutal Throw.

Still a third potential problem with thrown weapon builds is the need for feats. You need Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot to attack enemies engaged in melee without penalty. You need Brutal Throw to avoid splitting your focus between Strength and Dexterity. And you may need yet more feats for whatever prestige class you plan to use. Hammer of Moradin requires Iron Will and Weapon Focus, and also requires you to be a Dwarf, so you can't play a Human to help with your feat needs.

The typical ways of getting around it have already been mentioned, but to reiterate: Bloodstorm Blade requires only one feat to enter (Point Blank Shot), and it effectively gives you the benefits of both Precise Shot and Brutal Throw in the first four levels. Fighter, of course, can help out with a feat-starved build. And Humans get a bonus feat.

Anyway, you may have noticed that Bloodstorm Blade can address all of those problems. It's kind of an all-in-one solution. It does what it's supposed to do out of the box. You don't need to cobble together a bunch of different elements from a bunch of different books just to achieve core competency. And you can enter it with any class you like, though not using Warblade means you'll have to spend two extra feats (Martial Study and Martial Stance).



Now to completely go against what I just said about not cobbling together a bunch of different elements form a bunch of different books, here's a build that does just that. Goliath (+1 LA) Fighter 6 / Bloodstorm Blade 5. Take the Knockback feat (Races of Stone) and the Dungeoncrasher ACF for Fighter (Dungeonscape). Your thrown weapon attacks now bull rush the targets further away from you and bull rushing enemies into walls deals a bunch of bonus damage.

Or you could go Goliath (+1 LA) Barbarian 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 6. Take the Knockback feat (Races of Stone), the Rampaging Bull Rush feat (also Races of Stone), and maybe Extra Rage (Complete Warrior). Your thrown weapon attacks still bull rush the targets further away from you but now anyone you bull rush fall prone. You lose the bonus damage from knocking people into walls, but if you push people away and knock them prone, they have to stand back up and move over to you before they can do anything.

Edit: Nevermind that Barbarian one. It would require too many feats.

[Gruftzwerg]

What a rollercoaster. Though for a moment that's a lot of people were overshadowing the fact that touch attacks bypass DR... But, finally no.

Gruftzwerg. I saw your build and it looks awesome. Sadly, as I said in my original post (I think, I'll double check that and probably edit my post otherwise) I do not think I'll be able to multiclass that much.
All people playing at the table are suboptimal.

...
*snip*

Imho we can adjust these things:

1. to Ubercharger or not to Ubercharge

If you want to keep your dmg "unoptimized", just avoid pounce (and charge dmg boosts) and every other problem vanishes. You can make full ranged attacks with your hammer throw and your dmg stays where it is.

If you want to Ubercharge, you can still adjust how far you want to optimize your charge dmg. You can avoid the Power Attack - Imp. Bullrush - Shock Trooper feat line as example. With the freed feats you can adjust your feat selection and get pounce as feat for unarmed strikes (e.g. Lion Tribe Warrior regional feat) if you want it. If not you have some feats to play with (maybe for more style?^^).

2. Drunken Master
is sole there because of the mobility (and some safety) of the Stagger ability for uberchargers. If you don't want to go ubercharger or want to charge every turn (and thus have only a few high dmg spikes), this can easily be dropped.


We can narrow the build down to 2 base classes and 2 prc's. Maybe that is acceptable for your table?
And as said the dmg is adjustable with avoiding the feats and gear that optimizes the ubercharger dmg.

edit: on 2nd thought, if we drop Drunken Master, we can drop the monk too = now we are down to 1 base class (cleric) and 2 prc's.
And as suggestion for alternative feat selection. Maybe you can (for up to lvl 20 if you should go that far) to squeeze in the Whirlwind feat line for an AoE option. If you don't go ubercharger, it will be on a acceptable lvl of dmg.

[Menzath]

What a rollercoaster. Though for a moment that's a lot of people were overshadowing the fact that touch attacks bypass DR... But, finally no.

Gruftzwerg. I saw your build and it looks awesome. Sadly, as I said in my original post (I think, I'll double check that and probably edit my post otherwise) I do not think I'll be able to multiclass that much.
All people playing at the table are suboptimal.

I'm playing a Dragonfire Adept and my DM think it's pretty busted. (Because of free infinite Identification, Slow breath even on failed check and my all new spammable solid fog.)
Since we're not min-maxer nor good player either (I suppose) I actually think the class is pretty op... And because I have something level 22 or 24 CON at level 11, 128hp and always flying. The paladin is probably our strongest character actually. Beside mine... WHo does not deal a ton of damage but is pretty ridiculous at controlling the battlefield.

That's why I don't want to use all these neat builds on you can find everywhere on the internet, because people on the internet want overpowered characters, because they are playing 3.5 for several years and can build everything they want. It's not the case at the table I'm in and a lot of peple are not hardcore or even core players. It's pretty casual so, as for fighting videogames, tiers list do not apply the same.

And I think Dragonfire adept is a pretty boring class to play. And I always wanted to try a thrower build.

Hope that'll help you understand why I don't want to dip on many classes / strange PrC too much. I don't want to be overpowered and let other players feel almost useless or anything. I am a GM myself and I sometimes feel bad to play the character I actually play because it seems so... Not in "phase" with the rest of the party. (Dragon Magic isn't even available in our language...)

The only simplistic thrower builds I could recommend all involve level(s) of master thrower, hulking hurler, or bloodstorm blade.
The problem is they tend to be overly simplistic, or easily broken(read:op).

If you went with other ranged options I could suggest a bard Archer(without Dragonfire song) or totemist. Both out the gate have other utility, and can find a nice medium point to integrate into most parties.

Throwing sadly is a bit harder to fine tune, best bet is a bloodstorm blade build. Without much op you would stay on par with most other classes.

The funnier and harder to tune builds tend to be casters that come online later, like cleric or wu-jen. And if psionics were on the table it would be a whole different ball game.