Need help with a character build! (Monk/Warlock(WIS))

[Whaleman]

So my group is starting up an Eberron campaign in 5e. I decided to be a Kalashtar because they seemed cool. I immediately felt like their lore had a lot in common with a galaxy a long time ago and far, far away. Warrior monks with mystical powers vs an evil empire with similar powers. So I wanted to try building a jedi style character.
I immediately thought Warlock seemed to have most of the abilities that would be appropriate especially goolock (which I have styled as being my Quori). I felt I needed a bit more help in the martial department. Considering the Kalashtar come from monasteries. I went with fighter originally but when I told my GM he thought I should go Monk for thematics. I said yes and began building the character.
I immediately ran into the obvious MADness of the build. My GM has thrown me an olive branch though and has said I can use WIS as my stat for my Warlock stuff (spells etc.). Now I am trying to figure out the best setup. We are using point buy for stats and I will be a Kalashtar. As far as warlock I am set on goolock. For the monk levels Kensei looks interesting.
My current ideas involve three different possibilities. 3 Monk/17 Warlock which gets me the 9th level Mystic Arcanum and a 4th spell slot. 4 Monk/16 Warlock which gets me 5 ASIs instead of 4 so I could maybe even fit a feat into the build. The last idea is 6 Monk/14 Warlock which gets me more ki and a bigger martial arts die.
I am looking to evoke a Jedi with the build but not exactly be one. I still want to fit into Eberron Lore.

What do you all think?

[Alias Unknown]

Unless you start at lvl 20 don't plan for lvl 20.

But my advice is ditch the monk 4/warlock 16 as an option, the ASI probably isn't worth losing class features for.

If you intend to be in melee more monk is more good, while more warlock is better for the range and support.

[Crucius]

My copper piece is that Monk 5 is an exceptionally powerful level. This allows you to force choke (stun) enemies and gets you not only an extra attack (lowering your invocation tax) and ups your unarmed strike die to 1d6.

Open Hand monk can do force push and is mechanically more interesting than the kensei in my opinion, but I guess a Jedi wields a sword (which you still can using the base monk, as they get short sword proficiency and it counts as a monk weapon).

Like Alias Unknown said, do you want to go melee or ranged? My guess would be melee since Jedi are known for their lightsaber fights.

[HiveStriker]

hi op!

Since your DM was kind enough to give you WIS Warlock, I'd strongly suggest aiming towards Warlock 2 / Monk 5 first, then Warlock 3, then either Monk 11 ASAP or a Monk 7 / Warlock 7 hybrid.

You can either grab utility spells from Warlock to scout (invisibility) or manipulate (Suggestion is on their list IIRC), or get powerful combat spells (Armor of Agathys, Hex making Grapples/Shoves easier, Fly for extreme mobility, Fear to minimize threat against you, Fireball as fiend, possibly Greater invisibility later...)

Basically you can be a Monk and possibly "cherry pick abilities from Long Death (fear) / 4E (Hold Person / Fireball / Fly) / Shadow (Darknessà" by grabbing their related spells, or even go for something completely different.

Or you can simply be a "near regular Monk" that just happens to get a powerful ranged attack, onto which he can apply either pull (Grasp of Hadar) or push (Repelling) or speed reduction (Lance of Lethargy).
Considering your base speed, I'd personally grab the two last to give you strong option to contain a few enemies or litterally push away one threatening you.

[Amechra]

What level are you starting at?

[Whaleman]

Great to see some replies I thought no one would help me when I first posted this! I will be starting at level 1 with Monk for story and because I think its a good start. I will definitely have next level be 1 in Warlock its after that where I need to start making more decisions.

I was planning to go goolock especially for the mind effecting spells. I will also for sure betaking control spell like Suggestion. Also to help make the combo work I will be taking less thematic but still strong spells like Hex and Armor of Agathys. HiveStriker, I assume you think I should go to 11 Monk for the d8 martial arts and tradition feature. That will deny some strong invocations to me though like Lifedrinker.

As mentioned Monk 5 is a big upgrade with extra attack and stunning strike, if I went that far into Monk I would go to 6 though for the Ki-Empowered Strikes and monastic feature.

I hadn't really thought about Open Hand monk. Those are very interesting points you make about it being more interesting and still fitting the build idea. My DM approved the class feature variants for everyone so I already can use a longsword thanks to that!

I want to fulfill the the fantasy of the mystic sword wielding knight (Jedi) but I do want to help my party. We did a quick intro combat since several of the players are new to 5e and it became clear to me (I have been playing for a while) that we were very melee centric. I feel I need to be pretty okay at range to help in that respect. I am not sure if Eldritch Blast will be enough (I haven't run a Warlock before). The Kensei build would allow me to take a Longbow, use it with Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite (good for fliers).

I am still struggling with the level split but I do agree 4 Monk/16 Warlock is probably the weakest choice. That narrows it down to the 3/17 or 6/14 build then. 3/17s extra spell slot and 9th! level spell is very nice but 6/14s higher martial arts, magic punches and monastic feature are also very intriguing. I don't think I want to go super high into Monk I already am playing an Astral Monk in another game.

Thanks for all the input so far!

[HiveStriker]

Great to see some replies I thought no one would help me when I first posted this! I will be starting at level 1 with Monk for story and because I think its a good start. I will definitely have next level be 1 in Warlock its after that where I need to start making more decisions.

I was planning to go goolock especially for the mind effecting spells. I will also for sure betaking control spell like Suggestion. Also to help make the combo work I will be taking less thematic but still strong spells like Hex and Armor of Agathys. HiveStriker, I assume you think I should go to 11 Monk for the d8 martial arts and tradition feature. That will deny some strong invocations to me though like Lifedrinker.

As mentioned Monk 5 is a big upgrade with extra attack and stunning strike, if I went that far into Monk I would go to 6 though for the Ki-Empowered Strikes and monastic feature.

I hadn't really thought about Open Hand monk. Those are very interesting points you make about it being more interesting and still fitting the build idea. My DM approved the class feature variants for everyone so I already can use a longsword thanks to that!

I want to fulfill the the fantasy of the mystic sword wielding knight (Jedi) but I do want to help my party. We did a quick intro combat since several of the players are new to 5e and it became clear to me (I have been playing for a while) that we were very melee centric. I feel I need to be pretty okay at range to help in that respect. I am not sure if Eldritch Blast will be enough (I haven't run a Warlock before). The Kensei build would allow me to take a Longbow, use it with Improved Pact Weapon and Eldritch Smite (good for fliers).

I am still struggling with the level split but I do agree 4 Monk/16 Warlock is probably the weakest choice. That narrows it down to the 3/17 or 6/14 build then. 3/17s extra spell slot and 9th! level spell is very nice but 6/14s higher martial arts, magic punches and monastic feature are also very intriguing. I don't think I want to go super high into Monk I already am playing an Astral Monk in another game.

Thanks for all the input so far!
Hello again. :)

Sooo. People will definitely smack me for saying that, but I really wouldn't care that much about Lifedrinker. Reasons for that.
1. You can bring much more damage, although indirectly, whenever you apply some kind of control through Monk abilities or Warlock spells.
2. It's a Warlock 11 feature. There is no reason not to go at least Monk 4 (even if you didn't want Stunning Strike, Dodge/Disengage/Dash as a bonus action is VERY strong), but there is hardly any reason either to go Monk and not wanting to get it (plus other features from archetype). Meaning Monk 5, possibly 6 or 7! If those levels are important for you, so you take them early, it means that Lifedrinker becomes at best a level 18 feature.

Apart from that, I feel that as far as "being good at ranged attacks" imo you're going in the wrong direction.

All you need is Eldricht Blast and Repelling Blast (push 10 feet per ray) + either Lance of Lethargy (reduce speed 10 feet once) or Grasp of Hadar (pull 10 feet once) or Eldricht Spear (300 feet).
You can grab Agonizing Blast if you really want it once you get at least 2 rays, better 3. Honestly the movement control is much more interesting for you, especially with a melee-centric party, especially with a spell that can be either focused on an enemy or split on several.

It will allow you to create/remove OA, group enemies for AOE, put them into hazards, etc.

However, a good reason to divert from that EB-based approach and instead look on the martial side would be because you want Sharpshooter (imo it's not your case) or because you're damn interested in the "free-spell" invocations (which would be a very legitimate desire ;)): Gaze of Two Minds, Beast Speech, Devile's Sight, Beguiling INfluence could be fitting for you.

And of course, if you want to double down on pure combat capability, your intuition of Blade + Improved Pact Magic + "Smite" would indeed be very good, especially paired with Kensei.

I'd suggest you try to envision a "typical turn" so you can decide which feature(s) you'd *really* like to use regularly as a level 5 / 10 / 14 character. Then deduce which invocations you really want, then which class is "more important" to you, and which archetype (all Monk archetypes would work great for you)

[Whaleman]

Hello again. :)

Sooo. People will definitely smack me for saying that, but I really wouldn't care that much about Lifedrinker. Reasons for that.
1. You can bring much more damage, although indirectly, whenever you apply some kind of control through Monk abilities or Warlock spells.
2. It's a Warlock 11 feature. There is no reason not to go at least Monk 4 (even if you didn't want Stunning Strike, Dodge/Disengage/Dash as a bonus action is VERY strong), but there is hardly any reason either to go Monk and not wanting to get it (plus other features from archetype). Meaning Monk 5, possibly 6 or 7! If those levels are important for you, so you take them early, it means that Lifedrinker becomes at best a level 18 feature.

Apart from that, I feel that as far as "being good at ranged attacks" imo you're going in the wrong direction.

All you need is Eldricht Blast and Repelling Blast (push 10 feet per ray) + either Lance of Lethargy (reduce speed 10 feet once) or Grasp of Hadar (pull 10 feet once) or Eldricht Spear (300 feet).
You can grab Agonizing Blast if you really want it once you get at least 2 rays, better 3. Honestly the movement control is much more interesting for you, especially with a melee-centric party, especially with a spell that can be either focused on an enemy or split on several.

It will allow you to create/remove OA, group enemies for AOE, put them into hazards, etc.

However, a good reason to divert from that EB-based approach and instead look on the martial side would be because you want Sharpshooter (imo it's not your case) or because you're damn interested in the "free-spell" invocations (which would be a very legitimate desire ;)): Gaze of Two Minds, Beast Speech, Devile's Sight, Beguiling INfluence could be fitting for you.

And of course, if you want to double down on pure combat capability, your intuition of Blade + Improved Pact Magic + "Smite" would indeed be very good, especially paired with Kensei.

I'd suggest you try to envision a "typical turn" so you can decide which feature(s) you'd *really* like to use regularly as a level 5 / 10 / 14 character. Then deduce which invocations you really want, then which class is "more important" to you, and which archetype (all Monk archetypes would work great for you)

I am not sure I understand the idea of there being no reason to not get Monk 4. As I mentioned in my last post Monk 4 denies me getting a 4th Warlock Spell Slot (another 5th level spell) and a 9th level spell (mystic arcanum 9th). Also Lifedrinker is a 12th level Warlock feature (it would add 10 or 8 damage a turn depending on whether I cap WIS or not). The Dodge/Disengage/Dash as a bonus action you get at 2nd level Monk.

This is all not to say I don't see the obvious appeal of a 6 or 7 levels of monk. Evasion is fantastic and ki empowered punches +1d6 martial arts mean that the unarmed strikes keep up with any weapon better. If I went the Kensei route I would be pretty damn good with a longbow shooting from very far away with no penalty and dealing 1d8+1d4+1d6+3(DEX)+1(Improved Pact) on the first hit and 1d6 less on the next hit. The Open Hand 6th level feature means I could have a pretty strong heal for 18 HP helping with my lower CON I will have to take.

As far as a typical turn I see the character running around the battlefield applying control to it either through pushing enemies or spells. If that part is under control than he will pick a single target and shred it down via lots of attacks and Hex.

As far as stats I was thinking: 9 15 13 10 15(17) 9(10) (After Racials). I don't really like doing the 3 15s build as I feel its too power gamey and not interesting for characters. I like having at least 10 INT and CHA because then I am not actively bad at them. The 9 STR is mostly for being able to jump further. As far as progression first ASI gets 16 DEX and 18 WIS from there I cap one of those, leave the other at 18 and take resilient CON for the all important concentration checks and extra HP.

Any more input?

[Witty Username]

I would recommend going to monk 5, then grab warlock to the end. This will mean you don't delay your first ASI which will mean your AC won't hurt as much, as well as getting extra attack and stunning strike.
I don't think you need to get you dex to 18 for a while, my take
ASI 1: +1 dex and +1 wis
ASI 2: +2 wis
ASI 3: resilient(con)
ASI 4: + 2 dex? maybe

Have you considered taking pact of the tome? two extra cantrips and possibly ritual casting may serve you pretty well, if you are wanting to be a bit sage like. I would only take blade pact with this build if I was planning on eldritch smite, personally.

Other than that, if you are a jedi you should have force push. EB+Repelling blast then grasp of hadar and agonizing blast as you mood strikes you. I think I would grab EB at warlock 1 and repelling blast+agonizing blast at warlock 2. that will give you a nice ranged attack and a some battlefield control.

[Whaleman]

Hey Witty! I am fully onboard with your ideas on how to divy up my ASIs. I really want to get Warlock 2 quickly (for EB with Repel and Agonizing) but after that I am cool going Monk for a while if that seems like the right play. While my ASIs will be a little behind and Extra Attack will also be a little delayed I think its okay since I can rely on some utility during that time with my spells and EBs. I will also have a big power jump when I do get ASIs and Extra Attack. I was thinking about Eldritch Smite because its cool.

A couple things I am getting from most posts is that Lifedrinker Invocation is not good enough for the level investment. I am also seeing most people not even mentioning the loss of higher level spells with the lower Warlock level in favor of the more martial monk powers. Is the increased martial ability that much better than another spell slot and a 9th level spell? If so I will invest in the 6 Monk/14 Warlock build.

[bid]

Also Lifedrinker is a 12th level Warlock feature (it would add 10 or 8 damage a turn depending on whether I cap WIS or not).
Bladelock has nothing going for monk before that. All other pacts offer much more at an earlier level. Lifedrinker is just a patch to match the extra 1d10+4 from EB+AB.

I can understand that chainlock doesn't match, but tomelock extra cantrips (and rituals) adds many blades to your utility knife.

With the 2 odds stats forced by your race, an early monk 4 will help a lot. It also goes along with mastering yourself before using your powers.

[Whaleman]

Bladelock has nothing going for monk before that. All other pacts offer much more at an earlier level. Lifedrinker is just a patch to match the extra 1d10+4 from EB+AB.

I can understand that chainlock doesn't match, but tomelock extra cantrips (and rituals) adds many blades to your utility knife.

With the 2 odds stats forced by your race, an early monk 4 will help a lot. It also goes along with mastering yourself before using your powers.

Yeah chainlock just won't fit at all. Pact of the Blade seemed logical to me especially if I went only 3 levels in monk where it seemed mandatory for thirsting blade. It also would fit the thematics of the Jedi with the summoning weapon to hand (ala Luke and Obi). Tomelock is interesting and would fit in with the character (I am carrying around an ancient text to protect). I am not really sure what I would even want for the cantrips but rituals are cool and we don't actually have a ritual caster in the group.

I am guessing high level Warlock stuff is not worth going for then given you response.

[HiveStriker]

I am not sure I understand the idea of there being no reason to not get Monk 4. As I mentioned in my last post Monk 4 denies me getting a 4th Warlock Spell Slot (another 5th level spell) and a 9th level spell (mystic arcanum 9th). Also Lifedrinker is a 12th level Warlock feature (it would add 10 or 8 damage a turn depending on whether I cap WIS or not). The Dodge/Disengage/Dash as a bonus action you get at 2nd level Monk.

This is all not to say I don't see the obvious appeal of a 6 or 7 levels of monk. Evasion is fantastic and ki empowered punches +1d6 martial arts mean that the unarmed strikes keep up with any weapon better. If I went the Kensei route I would be pretty damn good with a longbow shooting from very far away with no penalty and dealing 1d8+1d4+1d6+3(DEX)+1(Improved Pact) on the first hit and 1d6 less on the next hit. The Open Hand 6th level feature means I could have a pretty strong heal for 18 HP helping with my lower CON I will have to take.

As far as a typical turn I see the character running around the battlefield applying control to it either through pushing enemies or spells. If that part is under control than he will pick a single target and shred it down via lots of attacks and Hex.

As far as stats I was thinking: 9 15 13 10 15(17) 9(10) (After Racials). I don't really like doing the 3 15s build as I feel its too power gamey and not interesting for characters. I like having at least 10 INT and CHA because then I am not actively bad at them. The 9 STR is mostly for being able to jump further. As far as progression first ASI gets 16 DEX and 18 WIS from there I cap one of those, leave the other at 18 and take resilient CON for the all important concentration checks and extra HP.

Any more input?
Honestly, everything can be boiled down to the bolded part. "You want tun RUN around, controlling enemies with PUSH or spells".
Thirsting Blade will only affect your Attack EVER since iy requires your pact weapon, and you can bond with only one. You'll get it at the earliest as a level 15 feature.
By that time, enemies will have so much HP that taking into account your own damage is simply an non-efficient approach. Getting a +10 "in isolation" will rarely change how quickly an enemy will die.
However, focusing fire with every teammate will. Meaning that any way you help others hitting better and more often will be much more important.

What can you do from Monk and Warlock to control enemies?
- Warlock: Eldricht Blast plus invocations: allows you (potentially), at 12th character level, to push a single enemy up to 30 feet away, to pull it 10 feet, and reduce its feet by 10.
- Warlock: Hex can be applied to make Shoving creatures much easier.
- Warlock: Hypnotic Pattern can put enemies to incapacitated.
- Warlock: Fear: helps defend everyone.
- Monk (Long Death): free Fear for action.
- Monk (any): Stunning Strike (1 ki per attempt).
- Monk (any): Shove/Grapple (wince you can use WIS on both classes, if you go Hexblade, it means you can also keep a decent STR, and tack some Expertise one way or another).

How can you get to enemies?
- Warlock: Fly (uses concentration)
- Monk: 10->20 speed increase, Dash as bonus action (which costs Ki as a reminder), wall run.

How can you hit?
- Warlock: Extra Attack (requires Invocation), +1 to hit and damage (Invocation), "smite" with one of precious slots (Invocation), bonus damage on one or two attacks per turn max (Invocation). Will need to perform a ritual if want to change bonded weapon from melee to ranged one (IIRC).
- Warlock (Hexblade): extra damge and crit range once per short rest on single creature.
- Monk: 3 attacks from the get go, ability to increase AC for free (important too), ability to get up to 4*1d8 attacks (considering your "Monk ceiling), easier "reach to melee" thanks to native speed, can attempt a stun to generate advantage, can Shove and still get 3 attacks (Attack + Flurry).
- Monk (Kensei): consume 3 Ki to get +3 to hit and damage on your weapon for one minute.
- Monk (4E): use Hold Person when applicable to generate advantage and crits for everyone (including yourself next turn).

How can you defend?
- Warlock (Hexblade): medium armor and shield
- Warlock (Hesblade): Shield (damn waste once you get higer level slots).
- Warlock: Mirror Image (great for 2nd level, decent as 3rd level, waste at 4th level)
- Warlock: Fear (it does benefit you defensively)
- Warlock: Armor of Agathys (decent as 3rd level spell, good as 5th level one).
- Warlock: Greater Invisibility: you cannot get better than that.
- Monk: using Martial Arts (requireing good DEX and WIS),
- Monk: Dodge as a bonus action (costs Ki).
- Monk: Deflect Arrows (will end useless if you dont "let it scale" with Monk level)
- Monk: Disengage as bonus action (costs Ki).
- Monk: Evasion (no ki).
- Monk (Kensei): +2 AC after Attack.
- Monk (4E): "Disengage and Dash for one ki" (Fangs of Fire Snake).
- Monk (Long Death): THP on kill, scales with Monk level.

So, on one side (Warlock), you get a powerful control ability with Eldricht Blast that *will* scale up by itself, and otherwise require a huge investment in feat to get as good on the martial side as if you were going plain Monk, and spells running on few slots for most of your character's life. You'd get an incredibly huge competition for slot consumption if you want on top of that use spells like Armor of Agathys / Greater Invisibility or the smite feature.
On the other side, you get a smooth martial progression in every aspect with only tradeoff being a slightly lesser AC, with features that are much more manageable in terms of resource consumption since it relies on a finer-grained one, which scales linearly.

For all these reasons I think for your character concept a great build would be making Monk your primary class for a theorical level 20 character, and having Monk 6 as a "semi-priority".
Like...

Char level 5: Warlock 2 / Monk 3 (you probably want some invocations early: Repelling Blast and Lance of Lethargy recommended, and Shied*2 on short rest is nice, with Expeditious Retreat being good to spare Ki for now if you really need amazing speed.)
Char level 10: Monk 5 / Warlock 5 (I'd say pick "smite" over "+1" and keep the previous invocations: you'll start using Stunning Strike anyways and with teamwork you should have advantage, swap Shield for Mirror Image then for Armor of Agathys)
Char level 15 : Monk 8 / Warlock 7: pick Greater Invisibility.

Be an Elf or Half-Elf depending on whether a) you'd really like being an Expert at Shoving and b) you'd be ready to dip into Rogue (or Bard?) for that.
Pick Elven Accuracy.

From the earliest levels you get
- Good melee capability (3/4 attacks, evasive features, decent AC).
- Great ranged capability (longbow if range or pure damage matter, EB otherwise).
- Decent surviability (lesser AC compensated by Dodge / +2 AC if Kensei).
Having a self-scaling good ranged capability means no pressure on Kensei archetype for the sake of having good ranged. So you can freely choose archetype considering everything each one has to offer (didn't speak of Shadows because you seem more of a jedi than Dark Sith but also good choice).

As you progress, your mundane damage and resilience naturally progresses too, while your "nova defenses / offense" tactics evolve as you pick new spells and Invocations.
To put it another way: even as a plain Warlock you'd spend more than half the total playtime with only two slots per rest. Unless your party is easy on rests, it will be hard to manage when to use those efficiently. And getting levels in Monk make that even truer.
As for Monk, something like half its abilities scale on its level, and having only 3-4 Ki considering the number of great features that depend on it would probably make you frustrated.
So instead of having twice the frustration, I'd say "embrace the 2 slots from an all-in perspective and get enough Ki that you can enjoy special tricks regularly".

With that said, Warlock main can definitely work too, but it boils down Monk's added value to "better martial proficiency" (any martial can give), "better armor" (honestly just a dip in Cleric would work better and without stats trouble, or racial providing Unarmored), "better speed" (Mobile feat ;)), "bonus action attack" (dual-wield until you get your weapon of choice then pick GWM or PAM - also you'll have much competition for bonus action anyways depending on spells), "Dash/Disengage as bonus action" (Rogue 2 would be much better since no resource cost), Dodge as bonus action (multiclassing into a regular caster with defensive spells would probably be more useful).
In short, simply not enough imo for a full 3 level delay on Warlock progression, even for fluff.

[Mutazoia]

Personally, I would consider Monk/Druid. Both have WIS as their primary stat, you still get casting ability, and you can gish the hell out of yourself. A black bear with unarmored defense and flurry of blows? Yes, please. Make it a Spore Druid and you can add Halo of Spores damage, as well as an extra bit of poison melee damage and temp HP to your playbook. At (Spore) Druid 14 you become immune to fear, poison, blinded, etc and critical hits don't count unless you are incapacitated.

After that, you can either ignore Druid and focus on your Monk levels, or wait for Wild Spell.

[HiveStriker]

@Whaleman: reflecting a bit on the thread I realize I may simply have missed your character concept.

I thought you'd want primarily "magically empowered martial power", with a couple of aside abilities pertaining mind control and other social manipulation.
That's the reason I've been evaluating Monk as overall the "better chassis", notably because I saw you rather use "long-duration buffs" for combat, and otherwise keep control/mind spell for non-combat situations (in which it's much easier to get a short rest), so having no more than 2nd or 3rd level spells for a long time seemed fine (I mean, just Disguise Self + Charm Person, or Comprehend Languages + Detect Thoughts, and Suggestions, can already allow some crazy things with a decently open-minded DM).

If however "being a Blade Warlock with just a few bonus action 'movements' per short rest is fine, then going Monk 3 only is certainly viable (although i wonder why you wouldn't directly go Rogue in that case).

In other words, I'm pretty confident in my analysis's worth if a) I understood your objective correctly and b) mechanical optimization or easiness of play in combats are among your top priority.

If your priority is fullfilling your fluff with as close as possible mechanics... Then you are always only the best judge. :)
And whatever you choose will work (because there is simply no way to make a "bad" character).

Hope we could all help anyways.


Personally, I would consider Monk/Druid. Both have WIS as their primary stat, you still get casting ability, and you can gish the hell out of yourself. A black bear with unarmored defense and flurry of blows? Yes, please. Make it a Spore Druid and you can add Halo of Spores damage, as well as an extra bit of poison melee damage and temp HP to your playbook. At (Spore) Druid 14 you become immune to fear, poison, blinded, etc and critical hits don't count unless you are incapacitated.

After that, you can either ignore Druid and focus on your Monk levels, or wait for Wild Spell.
As much as I love that dual-class, and as awesome it is, it's actually a bad fit for OP.

He made clear enough he wants a "mind manipulation" dimension, probably to manipulate people and/or gather information.

Druid can certainly excel at gathering information, but it will be through a very diffent way, using Wild Shape or hiring animals to spy. It's not at all "mind scrying".
And as great Druid's spell list is, there is little in mind-related effects there, it's 90% about manipulating physical environment.

Only a Sorcerer could approach that, but since GOO Warlock has both fluff, spells and special features baked in, it would be a shame not to take advantage of it. :)
It's rather on the martial side that I'd be more wary for a Warlock chassis, because Monk is the one martial class that is based on scaling features the most. ^^ And the level 13 "understand everything" would definitely be a great fit on both fluff and mechanics, but that's a level 13 Monk ability (so at best level 16 character). That's a damn long time to wait. ^^

[Whaleman]

@Whaleman: reflecting a bit on the thread I realize I may simply have missed your character concept.

I thought you'd want primarily "magically empowered martial power", with a couple of aside abilities pertaining mind control and other social manipulation.
That's the reason I've been evaluating Monk as overall the "better chassis", notably because I saw you rather use "long-duration buffs" for combat, and otherwise keep control/mind spell for non-combat situations (in which it's much easier to get a short rest), so having no more than 2nd or 3rd level spells for a long time seemed fine (I mean, just Disguise Self + Charm Person, or Comprehend Languages + Detect Thoughts, and Suggestions, can already allow some crazy things with a decently open-minded DM).

If however "being a Blade Warlock with just a few bonus action 'movements' per short rest is fine, then going Monk 3 only is certainly viable (although i wonder why you wouldn't directly go Rogue in that case).

In other words, I'm pretty confident in my analysis's worth if a) I understood your objective correctly and b) mechanical optimization or easiness of play in combats are among your top priority.

If your priority is fullfilling your fluff with as close as possible mechanics... Then you are always only the best judge. :)
And whatever you choose will work (because there is simply no way to make a "bad" character).

Hope we could all help anyways.


As much as I love that dual-class, and as awesome it is, it's actually a bad fit for OP.

He made clear enough he wants a "mind manipulation" dimension, probably to manipulate people and/or gather information.

Druid can certainly excel at gathering information, but it will be through a very diffent way, using Wild Shape or hiring animals to spy. It's not at all "mind scrying".
And as great Druid's spell list is, there is little in mind-related effects there, it's 90% about manipulating physical environment.

Only a Sorcerer could approach that, but since GOO Warlock has both fluff, spells and special features baked in, it would be a shame not to take advantage of it. :)
It's rather on the martial side that I'd be more wary for a Warlock chassis, because Monk is the one martial class that is based on scaling features the most. ^^ And the level 13 "understand everything" would definitely be a great fit on both fluff and mechanics, but that's a level 13 Monk ability (so at best level 16 character). That's a damn long time to wait. ^^

You all have given me a lot to think about! I love Druid/Warlock and thinks its great but it doesn't fit the fluff at all.

As far as the level split. A big part of why I thought I should go lesser on the Monk side and more on the Warlock was drawing from the Jedi part. In general high level Jedi tend to be less martial and more focused on the force (spells). I thought the progression narrative made sense that way. You have been very convincing with the idea of having more monk. I still feel that 6th level monk is as high as I am willing to go though though 7th level is very tempting. Also being a great old one warlock is locked in at this point. When it comes to the monk side now though I am still wondering which subclass. At first Kensei made a lot of sense with the whole weapon things. Having looked over Open Hand and Long Death as well, they make interesting choices though. Open hands ability to push people around is super neat and could be easily flavored as me using blasts of telekinetic energy. Long Death though seems fairly dark which would be an interesting choice but the character is going LG so far.

I had my first session now and got to run around and do a bit of combat. At level 1 I am not particularly useful out of combat but in combat I deal way more damage than the other characters with the extra bonus action attack. Our party has 1 character who is even remotely good at range. I do think I need to start getting some range quickly to help out on that front. The character has been fun so far. Kalashtar telepathy is a neat trick!

Something I have begun wondering though after reading through is how Thirsting Blade interacts with Kensei (If I only went to 3rd level). My understanding is that you use your action with Kensei to attack with your weapon and than use extra attack to attack with unarmed strike. This gives you the +2 to AC. Thirsting Blade seems to only work with your pact weapon though. So does that mean I can't do that with Thirsting Blade? If so that tells me I really NEED to get 5 levels of Monk if I go the Kensei route.

[HiveStriker]

You all have given me a lot to think about! I love Druid/Warlock and thinks its great but it doesn't fit the fluff at all.

As far as the level split. A big part of why I thought I should go lesser on the Monk side and more on the Warlock was drawing from the Jedi part. In general high level Jedi tend to be less martial and more focused on the force (spells). I thought the progression narrative made sense that way. You have been very convincing with the idea of having more monk. I still feel that 6th level monk is as high as I am willing to go though though 7th level is very tempting. Also being a great old one warlock is locked in at this point. When it comes to the monk side now though I am still wondering which subclass. At first Kensei made a lot of sense with the whole weapon things. Having looked over Open Hand and Long Death as well, they make interesting choices though. Open hands ability to push people around is super neat and could be easily flavored as me using blasts of telekinetic energy. Long Death though seems fairly dark which would be an interesting choice but the character is going LG so far.

I had my first session now and got to run around and do a bit of combat. At level 1 I am not particularly useful out of combat but in combat I deal way more damage than the other characters with the extra bonus action attack. Our party has 1 character who is even remotely good at range. I do think I need to start getting some range quickly to help out on that front. The character has been fun so far. Kalashtar telepathy is a neat trick!

Something I have begun wondering though after reading through is how Thirsting Blade interacts with Kensei (If I only went to 3rd level). My understanding is that you use your action with Kensei to attack with your weapon and than use extra attack to attack with unarmed strike. This gives you the +2 to AC. Thirsting Blade seems to only work with your pact weapon though. So does that mean I can't do that with Thirsting Blade? If so that tells me I really NEED to get 5 levels of Monk if I go the Kensei route.
Hey again ;)
Many bits to react to \o/.

"As far as the level split. A big part of why I thought I should go lesser on the Monk side and more on the Warlock was drawing from the Jedi part. In general high level Jedi tend to be less martial and more focused on the force (spells)."
So that explains our big starting difference of view. :) By the way in that case I guess spells like Animalte Objects / Telekinesis would be spells you fancy. Which may in turn favor warlock if those are on its spelllist. ^^

I still feel that 6th level monk is as high as I am willing to go though though 7th level is very tempting.
Honestly considering your objective I think getting monk 5 "not too late" (like, before char level 12 at uttermost, i'd personally make it between char level 8 and 10) should be enoug. By the time you reach that level, you'll have enough feedback on your character to know if/when take additional levels.
Especially since level 6 interest will be vastly dependant on archetype (note: I'm just evaluating level 6 feature in isolation: overall all level 3 features can be worthy, even though some would be better for you than others).
Long Death: weak (for you): Fear is concentration free, so it's great for a pure Monk. For your dual class, you'd probably be better grabbing the regular Fear as 3rd effect spell, that way you only "invest" action on initial turn, and on subsequents you can have the cake and eat it.
- Open hand: useless (overall): I mean, using an action to regain a handful of points, once per long rest, won't help you anytime soon when facing death at the level you can grab it.
- Kensei: usually nice feature, but... a) You won't have much Ki so the extra damage you will probably rarely use it (more helpful to keep for Stunning Strike or Dodge/Dash as bonus action) b) if you go Blade you'll have a pact weapon, which already is considered magical, so Monk's side would be helpful if only you were going dual-wielding (and for you it's unrealistic for many reasons).
- Drunken Master: potentially powerful feature since it scales with enemies, but for it to be really worth youd have to actively try and stay in melee against (small) groups of enemies. Not sure that's what you want to do / worth the risk.
- Shadow: probably weak (for you): besides the kinda dark/devious fluff coming from half the spells, the teleport requires dim light, which usually requires some obscuration spell unless you're crawling a "classic" dungeon. That's a YMMV though. If your own feeling is that you'd have enough chances to use it, then it's definitely a great pick.
- 4E: potentially good, if can fit your fluff: the push/pull attacks are usually good, but if you pick Repelling Blast (you should ^^) Unbroken Air becomes 120% redundant. Water Whip *may* still be nice, because targets DEX save and stacks several effects, by costing 2 ki for a guy that will have 6/7 for whole life may be a denier. Shatter can be decent enough though (and you can refluff it as a Jedi's Voice effect), and Hold Person is 100% fitting for a Jedi, so unless humanoids will be expectedly rare it can be worthy the steep Ki cost. Finally, on combat side, Fangs of Fire Snake is usually great, but works only with unarmerd. Seems it's not your thing though. besides that, 4E offers some nice utility disciplines if you want to get creative.
- Sun Soul: although level 3 would be completely redundant with EB, the level 6 can be nice, allowing you to have a decent AOE as a bonus action. If you feel blasting fire is not against your character concept, it's a good pick.
Taking also into account the level 3 benefits, and the fact that level 6 may never be taken, or be taken "late", I'd say following order of "worth":
"Straight to level 6: 4E > Shadow > Long Death.
"Not sure I'll ever get to 6": Long Death | Kensei > Shadow > 4e (except if you really like Fangs of Fire Snake or simply want to grab the utlity disciplines).

Reason why I put Open Hand and Drunken Master aside, even on "mainly lvl 3 feature" rating, is that their benefit require you to use bonus action on Flurry.
Flurry depends on Attack and being in melee. Between spells you want to use (action or bonus action), great ranged attack you will have, the "small for life" ki pool, the "weapon cantrips" not being Attacks, and the Dodge/Dash/Disengage bonus action which you will definitely use often, I simply feel you won't have nearly enough uses for those benefits.
if you feel differently though, then both are good.

But really, the best for you would probably (sadly) be UA archetypes: Tranquillity (lean hard on the "Jedi pursues peace) or Astral Self (refluff arms as Force interaction).

"Something I have begun wondering though after reading through is how Thirsting Blade interacts with Kensei (If I only went to 3rd level). My understanding is that you use your action with Kensei to attack with your weapon and than use extra attack to attack with unarmed strike. This gives you the +2 to AC. Thirsting Blade seems to only work with your pact weapon though. So does that mean I can't do that with Thirsting Blade? If so that tells me I really NEED to get 5 levels of Monk if I go the Kensei route"
No worries, it works.
"Monk weapon" is a qualifier applied to all weapons of some types.
"Pact weapon" is a qualifier that applies to a particular weapon.
There is no reason why you couldn't wield a weapon that happens to fulfill both constraints. :)
However, it will work only for that weapon, whereas Monk's regular Extra Attack works with all weapons.

So yeah, your tactics works as long as you chose a "monk weapon" as your pact weapon.
By the way, that makes me think. If you're sure you're gonna go the Blade pact way anyways, since you will definitely go high Warlock whatever happens, but are unsure when to get Monk 5 to start playing with Stunning Strike, you could also actually grab Thirsting Blade "for a while" then swap it back for another on a later new Warlock level after you got Monk 5. This means that for one level you'll get redundant feature, but it still may be easier for you than trying to set up the whole leveling in advance. :)

[MaeB1MaeB2]

Very:smallsmile: new to DND here... a buddy of mine is trying to create a Sun Soul Monk. Here's a short version of the campaign: Flee for Your Lives- party of two, hunted, born into isolation (we take a -4 on sense motive and gather info due to isolation) we stole some of our families relics and are on the run. We came to a Lawful evil kingdom and are in hiding while assassins are hunting us. The kingdom is made up of dwarves who became enslaved over a war that lasted several hundreds of years. our Characters have joined this Guild so we could travel around the kingdom freely without guards and magical barriers blocking our every way.

My buddy got "bored" and after a several month hiatus we are coming back to this campaign. The DM was nice enough to allow us to rework our characters since its been so long. A Sun Soul Monk doesn't really fit in with us being hunted and on the run in a magical fascist lawful evil theocracy.

M buddy is devastated that he cant shoot laser beams out of his hands, any help would be appreciated as our DM is heavy into roleplay and said he have to keep it simple this time around -.- I myself have chosen to go with a ranger, shadowdancer, ninja.:P looking forward to it.

[HiveStriker]

Very:smallsmile: new to DND here... a buddy of mine is trying to create a Sun Soul Monk. Here's a short version of the campaign: Flee for Your Lives- party of two, hunted, born into isolation (we take a -4 on sense motive and gather info due to isolation) we stole some of our families relics and are on the run. We came to a Lawful evil kingdom and are in hiding while assassins are hunting us. The kingdom is made up of dwarves who became enslaved over a war that lasted several hundreds of years. our Characters have joined this Guild so we could travel around the kingdom freely without guards and magical barriers blocking our every way.

My buddy got "bored" and after a several month hiatus we are coming back to this campaign. The DM was nice enough to allow us to rework our characters since its been so long. A Sun Soul Monk doesn't really fit in with us being hunted and on the run in a magical fascist lawful evil theocracy.

M buddy is devastated that he cant shoot laser beams out of his hands, any help would be appreciated as our DM is heavy into roleplay and said he have to keep it simple this time around -.- I myself have chosen to go with a ranger, shadowdancer, ninja.:P looking forward to it.
Hi.

{Scrubbed}
I'd suggest you rather open a dedicated thread for your ask for help {Scrubbed}

[MaeB1MaeB2]

So sorry. My internet etiquette is terrible. I meant no offense. As a new user to this site, it does a poor job of explaining how to create a thread. It's also very possible that this site is just not for me in case my blind self can't see where its described I spent hours looking and trying not to rage smash my laptop RN. Very frustrated and feeling discouraged. I don't think I'll continue here. Again sorry.

[HiveStriker]

So sorry. My internet etiquette is terrible. I meant no offense. As a new user to this site, it does a poor job of explaining how to create a thread. It's also very possible that this site is just not for me in case my blind self can't see where its described I spent hours looking and trying not to rage smash my laptop RN. Very frustrated and feeling discouraged. I don't think I'll continue here. Again sorry.
Oh, hey, no worries !! Don't consider it a big deal, it isn't. Everyone could make that kind of error. :)

Soo... Maybe you missed the "create new thread" button for some reason, or maybe because you are a newcomer on these forums you need to get a few comments under your belt before you're authorized... Not sure...

Anyways, follow that link, should lead you to "create a new thread". :)
https://forums.giantitp.com/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=63
I'll be happy to try and help you with your own question once it's live.

[Bobthewizard]

If I were to dip monk on a warlock, I'd try and figure out how few levels I could take. One for flavor with unarmored defense and martial arts seems most likely to me. Any more than that and you fall behind both spellcasting and fighting (thirsting blade).

So here's another suggestion. How about a 2 level dip in warlock on your monk. I'd likely go monk 5 first then take the dip. If you go shadow monk, then devil's sight from the warlock is amazing.

For spells I'd take minor illusion, mage hand, hex and unseen servant. This adds to Darkness, Darkvision, Pass without Trace, and Silence from the shadow monk to give you quite a few options. For invocations, devil's sight and mask of many faces/misty visions would make you a great ninja.

[J-H]

For the OP - have you considered simply using the Psi Knight from the recent UA? Combined with the Telekinesis and Telepathic feats from the same UA, you end up being very Jedi-like.

[Mutazoia]

He made clear enough he wants a "mind manipulation" dimension, probably to manipulate people and/or gather information.

Druid can certainly excel at gathering information, but it will be through a very diffent way, using Wild Shape or hiring animals to spy. It's not at all "mind scrying".
And as great Druid's spell list is, there is little in mind-related effects there, it's 90% about manipulating physical environment.

Only a Sorcerer could approach that, but since GOO Warlock has both fluff, spells and special features baked in, it would be a shame not to take advantage of it. :)
It's rather on the martial side that I'd be more wary for a Warlock chassis, because Monk is the one martial class that is based on scaling features the most. ^^ And the level 13 "understand everything" would definitely be a great fit on both fluff and mechanics, but that's a level 13 Monk ability (so at best level 16 character). That's a damn long time to wait. ^^

So you burn a feat to get Magic Initiate: Cleric and pick up command and charm person.