Unearthed Arcana: Subclasses Revisited

[Daphne]

The Revived, Noble Genie, and Archivist subclasses are now the Phantom, the Genie, and the Order of Scribes.

https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/UA2020_SubclassesRevisited_0512.pdf

[elyktsorb]

Bottled Respite: "ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER, actually kind of nice amount of living space."

[stoutstien]

Once again they try to introduce spell damage type swapping. I think it would be ok if they prevented force and radiant damage from working.

[nickl_2000]

Once again they try to introduce spell damage type swapping. I think it would be ok if they prevented force and radiant damage from working.

I saw that to and thought "Didn't they learn their lesson last time"

[Daphne]

Regarding other wizard subclasses, we can share that neither of the wizard subclasses we’ve presented in Unearthed Arcana recently—Onomancy and Psionics— will be moving forward in our development process, since they didn’t appeal to enough people and we can explore those subclasses’ themes in other ways.

I didn't like either of them so I'm fine with that, I'm sure some will be disappointed however.

[ftafp]

honestly, I don't mind they cut the onomancer wizard, I just wish they made it a bard subclass instead. I'm hoping when they say they'll explore those themes in other ways, they mean they'll still make it possible to play a truenamer. While it's not something I would play, the concept does feel missing.

Also, while the phantom rogue has some interesting abilities, I feel like flavor-wise they should have made it more of a "phantom thief" that specializes in teleportation, invisibility and etherealness

[stoutstien]

I saw that to and thought "Didn't they learn their lesson last time"

it could work you just had to put on a class that doesn't have access to every single damage type. The artificer is actually the best candidate IMO or druid limited to the basic elemental damage types.

[Luccan]

Once again they try to introduce spell damage type swapping. I think it would be ok if they prevented force and radiant damage from working.

It's at least a bit tamer than in the past. Forceball may be a problem, but I think introducing a limit on times per long rest could fix it up to not be too overwhelming. I'm not super into "replace your entire spellbook for free on a short rest", simply because if you're in a game where targeting spellbooks is ok, then you've just removed the stakes. Sometimes that will be good (jerk DMs, though you shouldn't play with them), but if it's a potential increase to challenge everyone is ok with....

What impresses me is that they decided to go with a generic "be better at being a wizard" theme and didn't do that by making another class's niche completely redundant. So they are learning.

[Millstone85]

I like the inhabitable lamp a lot more than the previous feature, a flow of smoke or whatever that would make an ally look as if they are coming out of your lamp. I found it kind of goofy.

Sad that the archivist artificer was abandoned, but I do like this scribe wizard.

[nickl_2000]

it could work you just had to put on a class that doesn't have access to every single damage type. The artificer is actually the best candidate IMO or druid limited to the basic elemental damage types.

Agreed, it's a flipping wizard. They have access to absolutely everything in their spellbook.


It's at least a bit tamer than in the past. Forceball may be a problem, but I think introducing a limit on times per long rest could fix it up to not be too overwhelming. I'm not super into "replace your entire spellbook for free on a short rest", simply because if you're in a game where targeting spellbooks is ok, then you've just removed the stakes. Sometimes that will be good (jerk DMs, though you shouldn't play with them), but if it's a potential increase to challenge everyone is ok with....

What impresses me is that they decided to go with a generic "be better at being a wizard" theme and didn't do that by making another class's niche completely redundant. So they are learning.

If they could limit it at all it would be better. A certain amount per day, only being able to swap per the spell prepared rather than in the spellbook.

[NorthernPhoenix]

The Genie one has got to be one of my favorite ones yet. It's amazingly thematic, and while strong, is still weaker than the strongest existing subclasses, which is what they should be aiming for imo.
The Rogue one is fun conceptually, but i weirdly feel like it has too few ribbons to really get you into the feel of being returned to life.
The Wizard one is mostly fine, but replacing damage types needs to go (certainly from anyone other than sorcerer (who had it in another UA)).

[Luccan]

Agreed, it's a flipping wizard. They have access to absolutely everything in their spellbook.



If they could limit it at all it would be better. A certain amount per day, only being able to swap per the spell prepared rather than in the spellbook.

I mean, it is already limited by what's in their spellbook. I absolutely agree they could do better, but the ability to actually use it is going to depend on what's in their book.

[GorogIrongut]

The wizard is meh... but I quite enjoy the Rogue and the Warlock.

[Millstone85]

First funny thought about the genie warlock.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for choosing Familiar Airlines. We hope the cushions are to your liking. We do not foresee any turbulence in the near future.

[Dork_Forge]

FIrst impressions I like the Rogue and Warlock (Rogue should just be half the damage roudned up instead of having to roll multiple dice again though) but man not a fan of that Wizard. We really didn't need a Wizard that was even better at casting without using slots and mixed with the damage swapping it's ridiculous (I don't mind the damage swapping so much if it was the only real non ribbon at 2nd and was limited to prepared spells not anything in the book), Wizard power creep continues.

[Sparky McDibben]

I am digging this wizard; that come back to life but lose spells thing is a nifty tradeoff.

For the rogue, I think they should have swapped the 13th and 17th level benefits.

[Eriol]

I mean, it is already limited by what's in their spellbook. I absolutely agree they could do better, but the ability to actually use it is going to depend on what's in their book.
Chromatic Orb is a 1st-level spell that gets you most of them. Magic Missile (also 1st) gets you Force. Chill touch is necrotic. Not sure the earliest Radiant, but it's definitely there later (sickening radiance).

Scribe is really cool, but OP. Maybe making it "on prep" would be enough to limit that element-changing ability, but it's still really strong.

Scroll thing is really strong too. "Twinned" Hold Person for free every day isn't bad at all.

The Manifest mind is too fragile IMO to be all that useful, though of course "free" rez is interesting and the wish part not much of a penalty by 17th level, as use downtime to completely negate the "wish cost" of it (though I play a lot of AL, in other games may be an actual penalty).

Genie seems mostly reasonable.

Phantom seems OK except that Ghost Walk seems like "Oh, they're like that every fight now" because there's no restriction on attacking while in that form. As long as something dies at least every fight (which if you're winning, they will) then you never lose the ability to be like that. That said, the "questioning" part of the tokens is useless IMO. If they can lie, then they just do. Unless you can compel the truth, not worth anything.

[Zalabim]

I don't like the use of proficiency mod for some abilities when something based on level might be safer, but I do appreciate that they are not based on an ability score. Especially the Genie patron here. Pick dao, get blugeoning resistance, a selection of utility spells, and pick up a giant sword as your pact weapon. It's very compatible with my ideas about pact of the blade.

[MaxWilson]

I like the warlock. Finally a warlock who can upcast high-level spells (via Wish and Limited Wish)! The at-will flight is a nice benefit, and the extra short rest is potentially powerful if used correctly (especially on a warlock chassis, it's almost as good as the warlock capstone). I agree with those who say it's strong but not as strong as the strongest existing subclasses, and that's a good point to aim for.


I am digging this wizard; that come back to life but lose spells thing is a nifty tradeoff.

I think it depends on whether using Wish to restore your spells risks burning out Wish. I think it does, but I wish they would just spend the extra few words to say so explicitly. "The only way to restore your ability to cast one of the lost spells is through the wish spell, which can restore one spell to the book per casting, which causes the usual stress for casting Wish for something that is not spell duplication."

[micahaphone]

Ah there was much rejoicing when the Elemental Metamagic was introduced in Unearthed Arcana - finally, a way for players to make a draconic sorcerer for the elements with few thematic spells. It costs sorcery points, a limited resource, and one of your metamagic choices, an extremely limited pick.

But wizards should get it as a part of a subclass, with no resource usage or limit.

And because Arcane Recovery wasn't enough, at 6th level they get a free 2nd or 3rd level spell slot per day that has to be an upcast 1st or 2nd level spell.

Who thought this was balanced? It's certainly thematically interesting, but this isn't even "okay a bit strong but it's playtest", this is yet another "why would you ever play a sorcerer" wizard subclass.

And why do all the features bother with weird little stipulations about "you can only do this if you have your spellbook nearby" or "this feature only works if you do the writing with the magical quill that you can summon at any time". Are there wizards trying to scribe scrolls while standing in an antimagic field? Is it common for wizards to have their spellbooks destroyed or to go adventuring without the spellbook with them?

[stoutstien]

Not really practical but a level three PC could have an infinite supply of one a day astral bombs combo with bag of holding through the infusion and genie vessel.

[nickl_2000]

Not really practical but a level three PC could have an infinite supply of one a day astral bombs combo with bag of holding through the infusion and genie vessel.

If you have an artificer friend who can keep making you more bags of holding.

[J-H]

The Phantom is creepy. Bonus psychic damage to other targets is unique and useful, and the soul trinkets are...handy? It doesn't look unbalanced at first glance, and is pretty unique.

The genie Warlock class looks great at first pass. Very unique genie-like abilities, including the ability to take a 10 minute short rest inside your lamp for the whole party at level 10. Shenanigans MUST ensue! Limited Wish is a good clutch play.

Archivist: On-the-fly damage substitution at level 2 with no limit is pretty powerful. Force-damage Burning Hands? One upcast low-level spell per day free via scroll is good, effectively a committed bonus spell slot. Spectral mind is blah, looks like a pain to track. Permanently losing spells known from resurrecting through the book is...also a pain. Easier to wait for Raise Dead unless you're in a critical situation. I'd only using that in a TPK or final boss fight. Do not like.

[KatsOfLoathing]

Phantom looks fun, and has both in-combat and utility powers built in. I wish Tokens of the Departed came earlier, since that feels like the big mechanical and thematic feature of the class. Maybe swap it with one of the 3rd-level features? Aside from that, no major complaints there.

Genie likewise seems interesting, and the vessel powers are much more thematically coherent this time around. I appreciate the different kinds of genies available for a broader thematic space of characters, and most of the features have acceptable levels of punch, while also being open to enough interpretation in their use to broaden the warlock's versatility.

Order of Scribes just seems to get a bunch of really powerful abilities for no cost, though. And most of its abilities don't really seem very on-brand for an "archivist" in the first place.

[MaxWilson]

The Phantom is creepy. Bonus psychic damage to other targets is unique and useful, and the soul trinkets are...handy? It doesn't look unbalanced at first glance, and is pretty unique.

The unlimited soul tokens (as long as you keep killing) lead to unlimited ghostly walks, which is a potential balance issue.


Archivist: On-the-fly damage substitution at level 2 with no limit is pretty powerful. Force-damage Burning Hands? One upcast low-level spell per day free via scroll is good, effectively a committed bonus spell slot. Spectral mind is blah, looks like a pain to track. Permanently losing spells known from resurrecting through the book is...also a pain. Easier to wait for Raise Dead unless you're in a critical situation. I'd only using that in a TPK or final boss fight. Do not like.

On the other hand, who cares if one of your Simulacra permanently loses the ability to cast some specific spells? Give you Simulacrum a travelling spellbooks full of low-level spells, and now it can bring itself back to life.

Spectral Mind looks meh at first until you realize that it's at-will and combines well with teleportation. Flavor-wise though it's completely bizarre. You're using the ghost of your spellbook as a remote UAV???

[JumboWheat01]

Phantom Rogue is deliciously creepy and I know a few people who will love it for that alone.

Genie Warlock, on the other hand, is by and far my favorite of this UA. It's thematic, not overly powerful, provides some party utility with its bottle, and gives me one heck of an excuse to make a genasi warlock. Use that heritage of yours! I like how its expanded spell list changes based on your genie instead of trying to be a catch-all for the four types. The addition of Wish, while thematic, may open up abuse, but that's for the DM to control. You only get Wish very late-game and only once a day, and your limited wish specifically mentions spells only and is on a 1d4 day recharge. Still, that's a bonus 6th spell every now and then for a warlock, that's pretty nice.

Scribe Wizard doesn't really tickle my interest any.

[Luccan]

Chromatic Orb is a 1st-level spell that gets you most of them. Magic Missile (also 1st) gets you Force. Chill touch is necrotic. Not sure the earliest Radiant, but it's definitely there later (sickening radiance).

Chill touch is a cantrip. Last I checked, you just know those, they aren't "in your spell book". Though some clarifying language could be helpful there.

Chromatic Orb is something I hadn't considered. They need to clean that section up a lot more than I originally thought.

[Aett_Thorn]

First funny thought about the genie warlock.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for choosing Familiar Airlines. We hope the cushions are to your liking. We do not foresee any turbulence in the near future.

Also, you can have your party enter the vessel, have your familiar invisibly drop it off somewhere, like the bed chambers of the enemy king, and then the whole party can pop out and commence with the coup. Much fun to be had!


I do wish that they would add more familiar types as they roll these new subclasses out, such as Mephits, but I am actually very happy with this new Genie patron!

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't like the use of proficiency mod for some abilities when something based on level might be safer, but I do appreciate that they are not based on an ability score. I like use of the proficiency mods in that way. Scales up slowly.

Tokens of the departed: i'd say that's a lot fiddly, needs a clean up.The Phantom appeals to me.

Genie patron: like it a lot, to include the Genie spell list. (How does wish fit into arcanum?) Does it replace the aracanum at level 17? I love the return of "limited wish" but I wonder if it needs a tweak.


• When you cast a wizard spell with a spell slot, you can temporarily replace its damage type with the damage type of another spell in your spellbook, as your spellbook magically alters the spell’s formula for this casting.
Let's not do the Lore Wizard again, OK?

I like the 10th level feature a lot. I think that's the best bit of this arcane tradition.

One with the word:
Too fiddly, rethink, come up with another feature.

[Amechra]

The Phantom just straight-up feels better than the Revived. It still feels stronger damage-wise than any other Rogue subclass, but not in as crazy of a way.

Genie Warlock is interesting, but it feels weird that only Genies have a 9th level spell added to their list. Rings are obviously the best vessel, since they're the easiest to carry - Bottled Respite is just plain cool. I'm glaring at Genie's Wrath, though - it highlights that a lot of features have been scaling with your proficiency bonus... Sanctuary Vessel might also be a bit excessive, just because of that speed-up to short rests. Limited Wish feels weird, though, because of the random recovery time - not sure I like it.

I love the idea behind the Order of Scribes, but I'm not a fan of the implementation. Living Spellbook would be a fantastic feature even if you removed that second bullet point. Master Scrivener is annoying (half the fun of making scrolls is sharing them with your party members!). And the rest of the subclass just kinda loses me - I was grooving to the idea of being an awesome scribe, not a make-an-astral-construct-and-teleport dude.

[P. G. Macer]

I agree with the general consensus here on the Phantom Rogue and the Genie Patron.

I think that the Order of Scribes, while currently broken with its free damage substitution, is salvageable once you scrap that feature entirely and WotC revises the others. The features are sweet, but aside from the damage substitution and the upcast scroll, they’re workable into something balanced.

EDIT: I am actually a little concerned with the Genie’s reliance on proficiency bonus scaling. While on the one hand it results in a lower ceiling than class level, on the other it’s ripe for multiclassing tomfoolery. Part of the issue with the Hexblade is that Hexblade’s Curse scales off proficiency bonus, making it powerful even as a dip.

[NorthernPhoenix]

I agree with the general consensus here on the Phantom Rogue and the Genie Patron.

I think that the Order of Scribes, while currently broken with its free damage substitution, is salvageable once you scrap that feature entirely and WotC revises the others. The features are sweet, but aside from the damage substitution and the upcast scroll, they’re workable into something balanced.

EDIT: I am actually a little concerned with the Genie’s reliance on proficiency bonus scaling. While on the one hand it results in a lower ceiling than class level, on the other it’s ripe for multiclassing tomfoolery. Part of the issue with the Hexblade is that Hexblade’s Curse scales off proficiency bonus, making it powerful even as a dip.

Genie damage crucially only applies once per round, while Hexblade applies to every damage roll. This reigns it in a lot in comparison.

[druid91]

I like the scribes. But they almost seem expressly designed for a combative DM type campaign, I'm also utterly unconcerned with damage substitution since you can do that for free anyway by just making a new spell.

"I cast Frodo's Force Ball."

[micahaphone]

I like the scribes. But they almost seem expressly designed for a combative DM type campaign, I'm also utterly unconcerned with damage substitution since you can do that for free anyway by just making a new spell.

"I cast Frodo's Force Ball."

Sorry, what do you mean by making a new spell? Like working with your DM to design a new spell, per the DMG rules? Because no way would I let my wizard player spend their downtime creating a new spell that's fireball but in a never-resisted damage type

[P. G. Macer]

Genie damage crucially only applies once per round, while Hexblade applies to every damage roll. This reigns it in a lot in comparison.

Good point, I hadn't taken that into account.

[CheddarChampion]

Phantom's extra psychic damage when dealing a sneak attack doesn't sit well with me.
I don't like it when a subclass boosts the main draw of a class unless it is resource based, depends on some condition or another, or is a capstone for the subclass.

There's also the whole bag of rats trick you can use. Just stand next to an ally, grab a rat and stab it. Now a foe of yours automatically takes damage.
BTW is the damage boosted if you get a crit? Grab a (nearly starved to death) unconscious rat and get an automatic critical if you hit.

[Nidgit]

I absolutely love the Genie patron and it's among the best things to come out of UA in quite a while. The 1d4 timer on Limited Wish might be a tad harsh but it's otherwise excellent.

The Phantom Rogue is a huge improvement on the Revived but still doesn't capture my interest that much. The Revived had a lot of problems but at least the flavor was there- this Phantom lacks a lot of that.

Meanwhile, Scribe has some great flavor but absolutely dismal execution. An Archivist/Scribe needs to have benefits derived from actually learning and recalling new stuff, not just generic combat abilities. The spellbook and quill themselves should be animated too! I'd at least like to see WotC take another crack at the concept, just in a pretty different direction. Any Scribe that willingly sacrifices their knowledge potentially forever is a sham, especially at a level where other party members should very much have revival spells available.

But hey, this UA's worth it for the Genie alone.

[MaxWilson]

Phantom's extra psychic damage when dealing a sneak attack doesn't sit well with me.
I don't like it when a subclass boosts the main draw of a class unless it is resource based, depends on some condition or another, or is a capstone for the subclass.

But it is resource-based: you can use it N times/long rest where N = proficiency bonus.

I blame WotC's writing for not making this clearer. They always say things backwards: "You can do XYZ... blahblahblah... once you do this, you can't do so again until a long rest" should be "once per long rest, you can XYZ."

[Man_Over_Game]

My initial opinion of the Phantom Rogue is that it's really, really bad.

You have this awesome mechanical concept around minor phylacteries, and it's mostly irrelevant until level 9. For 8 levels, you're basically a generic Rogue that is good at skills and deals a slight bit of splashing psychic damage with your attacks.

Here's the weird part about it: It starts out simple at level 3, and then dramatically ramps up in complexity once you start the second half of your Rogue levels. Complexity level is something that needs to be ingrained in every part of a subclass. It's why the Champion doesn't randomly get weird Critical boosting condition effects later on, or how the Moon Druid has scaling CR sizes of monsters as you level up.

It'd be the equivalent of me giving you Green Flame Blade with some extra damage as your level 3 feature, and then start leveling you as a full caster at level 9. It doesn't feel consistent, and it'd be really damn boring until you hit that point.

They usually follow a formula that worked for everything it's applied to: Put the coolest, mechanically/thematically demanding stuff as early as you can, and then make your later features only supplement those first features. I'm not sure why they didn't do that this time, but it seems to be a dumb mistake. They did it with the Horizon Walker, where the features that make you feel like a "portal expert" come far too late, but I figured they would have learned their lesson.

Assuming they fix that mistake, I'm still not entirely sold as most of it doesn't feel all that "roguish". There's not much you can do that would interact with the plethora of skills you'd have or using/improving your Sneak Attack. A good way of doing something like i'm talking about is giving the Rogue the means to cast Speak with Dead on a corpse creature that died from your Sneak Attack, maybe allowing him to use a specter as a scout, or as some kind of fear effect that improves your Intimidation rolls while the specter shrouds you, or allow you to communicate with the undead, which opens up so many ways you could use your skills for the party.

This guy put it succinctly:

Also, while the phantom rogue has some interesting abilities, I feel like flavor-wise they should have made it more of a "phantom thief" that specializes in teleportation, invisibility and etherealness

They coulda made it so that the Rogue had some kind of hybrid/phantom powers, akin to your protagonist in the Shadow of Mordor series, which would be unique enough to stand out against our existing options of "Soul Stealing Bard" and "Soul Eating Warlock". As-is, the Phantom just feels like you could have slapped this on a Cleric or Ranger as a "lichdom" path and it'd work perfectly fine, and if your Subclass's class doesn't matter, that's a problem.





To summarize, the problems are:

No emphasis on your main mechanics/thematics until level 9
Lack of interaction between core Rogue mechanics and the Phantom mechanics
Phantom mechanics are limited to "Kill things, use their soul", which we already have two subclasses for that both already multiclass well into (and play similarly to) the Rogue class

[iTreeby]

The Manifest mind is too fragile IMO to be all that useful.

You can summon it as a bonus action forever, there is no limit on summoning it.

[Ortho]

Genie Warlock is interesting, but it feels weird that only Genies have a 9th level spell added to their list.

The way I read it is that all Genie warlocks get the spells in the Genie column, and get the specific Dao/Djinni/Efreeti/Marid spells depending on your patron.

[Segev]

First impressions:

I still don't like the rogue that's "walking the line between life and death." It feels...athematic to the class, and like something you could say about fighters, barbarians, and even rangers or monks just as easily. More easily still on wizards, sorcerers, clerics, or warlocks. While I see the way they tie this specific subclass to the rogue, I don't see why they're using this flavor. It feels like they have an unspoken purpose for this that's heavily tied to one setting or one setting element, and without that, it's a nonsensical subclass, thematically.


The Genie has some neat flavor, but I'm a little bugged that it gets what amounts to a pact boon item as its first level feature. Not hugely bugged, but it's a little off, to me. Weird how much it's trying to make you BE the classic genie, but hey, I have a concept I could play with that. No patron, just an evil sorcerer who turned him into this, but still. That level 10 ability is broken, though, especially since the warlock gets the benefits and is a short-rest class, itself. This is all but begging for every fight to be followed by a short rest. The "1d4 long rests" thing also bugs me. It's almost as bad as the Cleric's "once per week" ability. Still, nice to see "limited wish" make an appearance.


The Order of the Scribe takes a huge step towards making the spellbook more of a point of interest than an actual thing wizards need to have, since they can essentially teleport their book from anywhere to them, and it can't be destroyed. I'm not sure how I feel about that, but it makes them feel more like a sorcerer, in a way. The concept is interesting, and isn't inherently broken. I'm amused by the "ritual spell 1/long rest with no longer action time;" it's basically an extra spell slot you can only cast a ritual out of. Manifest Mind is...it's Invoke Duplicity at will, at least for the only feature a high-level wizard would really care about with Invoke Duplicity. It's what project image was in earlier editions: a way to cast your spells without having to be present! It has hp, but nothing says you can't remanifest it, and it provides no instruction for replacement, so it must be conjured anew each time. Likely rules loophole: it doesn't say you can have only one manifested at a time. ...okay, re-reading, you can only cast through it your Prof. bonus times per day. I don't like One With The Word. Permanent spell loss, with a recovery mechanic that eventually will fail permanently with its own permanent cost, doesn't feel like fun. Far better at that level to die and be resurrected, with very few exceptions. And you won't be playing Tomb of Annihilation at 14th level, most likely.


Overall thoughts: "Your proficiency bonus times per day" seems to be the mechanic they're testing out in this one. It's an interesting idea. A bit of sloppiness in the wording, though: it should be "you can do this a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, regaining these uses after a long rest," or something similar. They do this most of the time, but a few times they just say "per day," which isn't the standard terminology of 5e.

[Amechra]

The way I read it is that all Genie warlocks get the spells in the Genie column, and get the specific Dao/Djinni/Efreeti/Marid spells depending on your patron.

It looks like you're right - I misread the feature. Now that feels a little bit less weird.

---

Honestly, I really wish that the Order of the Scribe had just been the "School of I-Like-Casting-Rituals" Wizard, with more boosts to ritual casting. The ability to quickly cast a ritual once per day is interesting to me in a way that the rest of that subclass isn't.

[Nidgit]

The Genie has some neat flavor, but I'm a little bugged that it gets what amounts to a pact boon item as its first level feature. Not hugely bugged, but it's a little off, to me. Weird how much it's trying to make you BE the classic genie, but hey, I have a concept I could play with that. No patron, just an evil sorcerer who turned him into this, but still. That level 10 ability is broken, though, especially since the warlock gets the benefits and is a short-rest class, itself. This is all but begging for every fight to be followed by a short rest. The "1d4 long rests" thing also bugs me. It's almost as bad as the Cleric's "once per week" ability. Still, nice to see "limited wish" make an appearance.
The Level 10 Genie ability is strong, but it's saved by being once per long rest by virtue of keying off Bottled Respite. At-will abbreviated short rests would be extremely strong, but as-is it's a once per day Catnap/Tiny Hut combo, which seems acceptable.

[Zevox]

Honestly, the most important thing for me here is the that survey about the Psionics UA is finally up. I hope they get enough negative feedback about the Psi Dice that they don't go forward with that, personally.

Anyway, about the new stuff. The Rogue looks a hell of a lot better than the previous version of it - the flavor of it fits together a lot better (Rogue with ghostly necromatic abilities, as opposed to the weird reincarnation/zombie/ghost mixture that the Revived Rogue had), and I actually like the abilities by and large, and nothing sticks out as OP (okay, maybe the modular proficiency a bit, but still). It still seems generally odd to me to have a necromancy-themed Rogue subclass, but if they're set on doing that, this is leaps and bounds a better way to do it than the "Revived" Rogue from before.

The Genie Warlock I immediately like just for that Vessel ability that basically gives them their own extradimensional home that they can even store stuff in right from level 1. That just sounds like a fun thing to have on a flavor level alone. I do have to say that the Elemental Gift feature's flight ability seems kind of strong for how early it kicks in: as soon as you get it that's almost three uses per day of the Fly spell (just at half the speed and can only be used on you), and it's a bonus action to boot. At sixth level that's like three extra spell slots of the highest spell level you can cast - only for a specific spell, sure, but that's a good spell. That could probably stand to be toned down a bit, maybe drop the duration to 1 minute instead of 10, or perhaps just wait until level 10 to give that ability. The rest of their abilities I like too, good stuff all around, I think, just that concern about the flight ability.

The Scribe Wizard seems... eh. I don't understand why this is a subclass? It just seems like the most generic Wizard possible, flavor-wise. All Wizards are bookish, this one is just supposed to be even more so than the rest? Not a fan. Also, freely altering spell damage type with no use limitations, seriously, they haven't learned that that's a bit OP? (Yes, you need another spell with the type you're switching to first, but you can cover most damage types from level 1 just by having Chromatic Orb and Magic Missile in your spellbook.) And the big theme mechanically is that your spellbook is sentient now, and you get to cause its mind to manifest starting at level 10... yeah, that's just weird to me. I like my Wizards, but this one just leaves me confused about what the point is.

Still, two out of three's not bad.

[Mikal]

I like the three classes mostly, though I do wish they could have let sorcerer keep the damage type change on their spells (counting UA). Not only is the wizard one online one level early, it doesn’t cost resources (vs sorcery points), and has energy types the sorcerer can’t.

Like really? You couldn’t let the sorcerer have one nice flexible thing for once?

[Segev]

Honestly, the most important thing for me here is the that survey about the Psionics UA is finally up. I hope they get enough negative feedback about the Psi Dice that they don't go forward with that, personally.

Heh. Well, I actually disagree with you; I think it's an interesting mechanic that could go interesting places. I wouldn't mind a more 3.5 approach, but honestly, I think it'd feel stale and off from the way 5e has gone in general. I do understand the dislike of the psi die in terms of some of the flavor given to it ("Reserving your power" isn't something you randomly do on accident, guys), and it definitely feels too chaotic to be a controlled psion-like experience, but my hope and expectation is that the full-flavored version of it will talk about the raw and hard-to-control power of the mind, and then give the psion-alike class features which let them bring it under control while leaving most psychic characters with this wild mental power, pulsing and barely controlled.

[KorvinStarmast]

Like really? You couldn’t let the sorcerer have one nice flexible thing for once? No, they can't. they are Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Coast.

And they already gave you the Shadow sorcerer. It's a nice kit.

[JumboWheat01]

No, they can't. they are Wizards of the Coast, not Sorcerers of the Coast.

You mean Sorcerers of the Plains, clearly.

The Scribe focusing on rituals would've been an interesting choice of subclass, definitely more of a utility choice. Wizards are the second best Ritual Casters, after all, after Tomelocks, enhancing that power would have been something fun to look at.

[CheddarChampion]

But it is resource-based: you can use it N times/long rest where N = proficiency bonus.

I blame WotC's writing for not making this clearer. They always say things backwards: "You can do XYZ... blahblahblah... once you do this, you can't do so again until a long rest" should be "once per long rest, you can XYZ."

Oh! Thanks for pointing that out.

[Benny89]

I like damage swap type, but it should be level 14 feature of this subclass. I think level 15+ is already riddiculous enough so more power-spikes are kind of ok for me.

Btw. damage swap is fine, but I think they should make Bard subclass that has this feature (for example number of time their CHA modifier), not Wizard.

Reason is I don' think Wizards needs anything more really. But we could use something new for Bards, Druids or Rangers.

[Chaosmancer]

So, I agree with a lot of the things being said so far.

The Phantom has some great flavor, love the floating proficiency (Could expand it to include languages just for fun) and the Wail is actually really great. The biggest part of it to me, is that your target can't save or dodge the damage. It is still gated behind needing to sneak attack one opponent, but then a second of your choice just takes damage. It starts weak with 1d6 twice per day, but gets to be 5d6 six times per day, which is equivalent to some free spellcasting or smites so I think it works out. It also makes this the first rogue who doesn't mind fighting multiple opponents. Tied into this, it makes it possible to do a 15d6 sneak on a single target six times per day at level 17. Which is really nice.

Mechanical Tangent: Probably note, but what are people's thoughts on this damage benefiting from Crits? This isn't a seperate action, it is part of the attack and just hitting a second target. It think it qualifies for doubling from crits. Which would make a 30d6 sneak on a crit at high levels. Just stupid damage.

The only real problem I have with Phantom is the same everyone else is having. Tokens of the Departed is cool, but that question ability is flat useless. Maybe allow them to smash the trinket to get an automatic 20 on their Death Save, giving them a reason to have multiple tokens before level 13.

Genie is also a ton of fun, and way better than the previous version.


I think the Dao list is actually pretty good. Sanctuary might not be great, but Spike Growth is a solid spell. And Wall of Stone could get ridiculous.


The Bottled Respite is great for safe short rests, and allows you to do some fun bag of holding things. But, I think people are missing some other great uses for it. For example, you get to hear from inside your container. With it starting at four hours you can rest in there, you can easily go into your ring and have it hidden by an ally to snoop in a room, or have your ally wear it and you can pop out to help them. It is once per day, but I think it is incredibly powerful. And, by 9th level, never long rest anywhere else.

I didn't realize til this thread that the prof bonus from Wrath is once per turn, which weakens it a lot from what I thought. Still really good to get a permanent damage boost, but it isn't nearly as bad as I first thought it was.


Fun thing I want to do, with the level 10 ability? I'm sure it doesn't work, but it doesn't specify if the willing creatures can only remain for the same number of hours. Assume they don't. Genie Warlock Sultan with his own personal harem hanging out in the bottle. Just makes me laugh. Still, a powerful ability since you can do a fast short rest and give everyone between a +4 and +6 to their HD. Combine with bard for some excellent healing.


Also, if you don't use it for the short rest, then take a long rest in the item. It isn't invulnerable, but you could easily bury it in the dirt or otherwise keep it fairly safe.

Mechanic Question: Do we imagine this is +prof to every die, or just the total?

For the wizard, I'm almost ashamed to not see anyone talk about this amazing power move.

Write your spell book using the quill. If you get captured, use the bonus action to erase your spellbook. then you use the Awakened Spellbook feature when you escape to recreate the spell book for free.


I just love it.


Also, there are a lot of subtle things in those two abilities. 1/2 cost and time for all spells is big for the wizard. Being able to erase anything with a wave of the hand could be great for a spy campaign, after all, you could pass messages and then erase it. Now, I would like the ability to reverse that, restoring anything erased by this, maybe restoring paper would be cool.


I do agree the damage replacement needs limit, being able to do it all the time is too much, and I would like to have more than 1 quickened ritual per day. Maybe a number of times equal to int or prof.

Scrivener is a great ability, the scroll gives a free powered up spell, and tons of uses for that.


But then everything falls apart. The Manifest Mind is actually a bit of a crappy familiar. It takes you bonus action to move it every turn, which a familiar doesn't. Now, casting any spell through it is nice and being 300 ft away is also neat, but that is a very niche ability, and since it glows and has hp, it is not a stealth option and will be spotted and destroyed if you try and put it too far ahead of you.

The teleport is nice for the last ability, and I like the concept of the revive, but as was pointed out, by this level, you have Raise Dead easily which is if you died within a few days. This is you using it within a minute. So, you have to decide, do I take the risk on Raise Dead, or do we need me back after a minute, with 1 hp and losing spells.


It just isn't worth it most of the time. And it ends up making Wish a neccesary spell for this class, which is weird for a spell that is already one of the most powerful and since it restores one spell per cast, you need to make that 1/3 chance of permanently losing wish every time. It just is not a good ability.

[Kane0]

Phantom Rogue:
Thematics: Could we just drop the 'intimate with death' stuff? 'Uses ghost powers' is good enough. The flavor of the AT doesn't describe exactly how and why they use magic, they just outline that they do.
Whispers of the dead: Floating proficiency, neat
Wails from the grave: The number of uses really sucks for what should be a defining feature of the subclass (on a class that is largely rest-independent). Rolling again instead of just using half damage is a waste of time at the table, the number of uses also really sucks, and why does it triggers off Prof bonus? This needs work.
Tokens of the Departed: Functionally advantage on Con and Death saves, with the added bonus of asking questions of the dead. They can be as deceptive and/or curt as the DM wants though, so not much more than a ribbon.
Ghost Walk: This is a good feature. It's fueled by tokens, is a bonus action and has a good duration with both combat and noncombat uses. Thumbs up.
Death Knell: Not that great a capstone.

Still a good kernel of a concept, but again presented poorly. The level 13 feature shows the promise of this subclass but the rest is just a bit of a letdown. Swapping the level 3 and 9 stuff around somehow is required to start with, then fixing up the damage features to interact with tokens as well. The speak with dead ribbon would be fine if the the rest was touched up.
Also, please dial back the edge.


Genie Patron:
Thematics: Was solid before and remains solid now. Genies make good conceptual patrons.
Spell list: Efreeti is sort of one-note compared to the others (and even Fiend patron), but looks solid. Wish is the outlier here as warlocks don't actually get 9th level spell slots and thus can't use it. Mystic Arcanum doesn't work like that.
Genie's Vessel: Still the same mistake as last time, physical objects are a Pact Boon thing and shouldn't be mixed into Patron features. Bottled respite is good and on par with other non-hexblade level 1 features; I don't see the connection with Genie's Wrath and that should be moved elsewhere.
Elemental Gift: Resistance and Flight, good stuff but why are we tying this all to Prof bonus?
Sanctuary Vessel: 10 minute short rest for the party, nice. I feel like this should be an invocation though, seeing as it's tied to the vessel which as above shouldn't be a patron thing but a boon thing. Also, more prof bonus linkage why?
Limited Wish: This is good, but 1d4 long rests is... not fun. At least it isn't tied to bribing or persuading more uses out of your patron like before, but it's only a small improvement.

Again still a great concept, but still needs polish. Bring back the Talisman pact boon and work it into the genie patron as a combo and I could see this working very, very well.


Scribe Wizard:
Thematics: Written word/scroll specialist is a thing I could see for wizards, generic in regards to school but specific in application. Just like Onomancy and the spoken word, though that touches on Bard territory.
Wizardly Quill: Neat replacement to [school] savant but much, much stronger. Also, I'm assuming you can use Mage Hand to write with it?
Awakened Spellbook: I feel like this could be bundled with the quill into a single feature thematically, but mechanically I can see that one is supposed to be the ribbon and the other the level 2 feature. As far as said feature goes, it's a doozy. Free damage type swaps with a limitation that isn't really a limitation as well as rituals without ritual casting times. And in case this makes the DM want to target your spellbook, you can recover it during a short rest. This needs a nerf.
Master Scrivener: Extra good at making scrolls as expected (but not at level 2 as your ribbon, this is an extra and separate one) but more importantly a free up-level scroll once per long rest. This is a solid feature but the ribbon part is out of place.
Manifest Mind: I don't see the link between being a scribe and giving sentience to your spellbook. Casting from another space is neat, but why are we linking it to prof bonus when it has low HP and isn't invisible?
One with the Word: Now you've really lost me; merging your soul with the spellbook you gave life to? Functionally it's benign transposition, stolen from the Conjurer and again linked to Prof bonus. I don't get it. But that's not even the main event, if you die with spells left in the book you get a rez at the cost of losing some spells forever, now stealing from the Transmuter while being seriously unfun to actually benefit from and still I don't see anything to do with mastery of the written word!

I really, really want to like a UA wizard subclass for once. Please, please bring out the nerf bat on the first half and something to do with WRITING for the second half so I can! We have sigil, glyph and word spells, how about doing something with those?


Overall, there are improvements here. Small improvements, not as much as I would expect for a second go round. The impression I get is that this isn't the primary devs doing this, it's been handed off to someone less experienced but more eager who was first testing the waters and is now trying to figure out what to do with the feedback they received. Basic mistakes are still being made.

[MaxWilson]

Tokens of the Departed: Functionally advantage on Con and Death saves, with the added bonus of asking questions of the dead. They can be as deceptive and/or curt as the DM wants though, so not much more than a ribbon.

The way I see this playing out is an enhancement to intimidation, something like the following enhanced interrogation:

[mook assassin is tied up, party is trying to figure out who hired the assassins. Rogue is trying the old "scare them into thinking you already know everything they could possibly tell you" tactic.]

Rogue: Okay, pal, we can do this the easy way or the fun way. I don't really care which but my boss says we need to find out how much you know before we deep-six you. Question one, when was the last time you saw the man in the yellow hat?

Mook: [scowls] Get lost.

Rogue: [eyebrow raised, pretends to make a note on a piece of paper] Question two--it's probably not even worth asking but do you even realize that your boss actually paid off your inside man in counterfeit money? [Rogue is lying, watches for signs of confusion to indicate a possible lead on an inside man]

Mook: [glares silently]

Rogue: Hmm. No clue, huh? Question three, who paid you?

Mook: The Crown Prince.

Rogue: Ah, excellent. [makes a note] Thanks very much for your cooperation, and I guess we're done here, except for one small thing...

[Rogue stabs mook in the heart, then seizes his dying soul and summons the mook back]

Rogue: ... I hate being lied to. Anything you want to clarify before I chain you to your own rotting corpse for eternity?

At this point the hope is that the mook is so shell-shocked by his own sudden death that he says something useful and verifiable. (I assume he was lying about the Crown Prince before, but maybe he'll say something about an inside man or the real employer. Man in the yellow hat is just smoke to appear more knowledgeable about the plot than the mook is.) Then of course the cleric Revivifies the mook because we're not monsters, right?

Anyway, that's how I imagine the ability being used. Roleplay is still very much involved even with the dead.



It just isn't worth it most of the time. And it ends up making Wish a neccesary spell for this class, which is weird for a spell that is already one of the most powerful and since it restores one spell per cast, you need to make that 1/3 chance of permanently losing wish every time. It just is not a good ability.

People are overreacting to the spell erasure thing. In reality, campaigns are finite and PCs are too--most people won't even play up to 14th level in the first place, much less be crippled by losing a handful of spells coming back from the dead that one time (or zero times) it's necessary to self-raise.

It would be different if you didn't get to choose the spells, but in actual play you'd just give up the spells you prepare least often at high level, then finish the campaign.

[BloodBrandy]

Phantom Rogue-Honestly I have no real strong feelings. I am happy with the change they made between Bolts from the Grave and Wails from the Grave, though admittedly I am iffy on that much damage of a rarely resisted type with no save or attack roll. It would make boss fights involving mooks somewhat interesting, but I think it would be better as necrotic. The Death Knell expansion on it is alright, basically adding sneak attack onto your sneak attack while also letting you sneak attack as you sneak attack.

Whispers of the grave, as with it's predecessor in Revived Rogue, adds a bit more skill to the skill monkey.

Tokens of the Departed is...It's just Speak with Dead with added steps and restrictions. Really kind of not too great. The main use of these tokens seems solely for the next class feature because the Speak with Dead one seems really not that good.

Ghost Walk is...It's alright. Not good, not bad just alright. 10ft of flight is really nothing worth writing home about, and while the Disadvantage on all attacks against you is pretty good, I'm just not sure if it's really worth a dang.

Genie Warlock-I actually really, really like this. I like the pseudo bag of holding-Not Tiny hut Tiny hut thing they are doing with the vessel while still keeping a limit on both of it's base features. I like that they are seperating it up a bit for the different genie types, and I like that we finally have a patron making additions to the Arcanum selection (I never understood why this wasn't a thing before).

I'll admit, the flying feature seems a bit early to me. Yes, it's a little after you would have the Fly spell anyways, but non-concentration flight at the usual walk speed, along with a damage resist at level 6 seems almost too good.

Speaking of Too Good, I think Sanctuary Vessel should have some limit on it's short rest boosts other than just time because by the time you have this, you have a grand total of 8 hours to spend in the thing, so 48 ten-minute short rests.

I like Limited Wish. it's not too powerful with the "1 action cast time" and the recharge on it makes you really have to think about what you want to do with it, without dipping into other class lists to heavily because of it.

Order of Scribes Wizard-I'm honestly not sure on this one. I like the Quill and Book, though I think it needs some specification on the free ink not being used for spell scribing into the book (Just to be safe). The Spellbook Features are neat, though as others have said, I think the Element Swapping needs more of a restriction than "Same element as another spell you know" since you can just have Magic Missile for Force damage.

Master Scrivener is...Solid, I suppose. Essentially a free 2nd or 3rd level spell slot with some restrictions, but it can be an unprepared spell which is neat.

Manifest Mind is...Alright. It's somehow squishier than the squishy wizard, the shared senses is a neat solution to darkness, and the range extension on your spells is good, allowing the wizard to keep safe and hidden while still contributing through the use of certain spells.

One with the Word is...Interesting. The teleport is gravy, but the self revival is a very interesting way to work things, making one's spell choice very vital and possibly robbing you of your best in order to survive.

[Zevox]

Heh. Well, I actually disagree with you; I think it's an interesting mechanic that could go interesting places. I wouldn't mind a more 3.5 approach, but honestly, I think it'd feel stale and off from the way 5e has gone in general. I do understand the dislike of the psi die in terms of some of the flavor given to it ("Reserving your power" isn't something you randomly do on accident, guys), and it definitely feels too chaotic to be a controlled psion-like experience, but my hope and expectation is that the full-flavored version of it will talk about the raw and hard-to-control power of the mind, and then give the psion-alike class features which let them bring it under control while leaving most psychic characters with this wild mental power, pulsing and barely controlled.
The flavor is the big thing for me, though - "wild mental power, pulsing and barely controlled" isn't what I want the core mechanics of Psionics built around. I like my Psionic characters flavored as highly mentally disciplined masters of their abilities, aside from maybe a one-off class like the Wilder. The Psi Dice would be fine as a mechanic for something like that, or could make for a great homebrew alternative Wild Magic Sorcerer, but doesn't fit with what I want most Psionic classes to be at all, especially the Psion itself.

A more 3.5 approach with Psi Points would be preferable personally, sure, but I'm also fine if that's not the way they go with it. I just don't like the Psi Dice in particular because of those flavor issues.

[Evaar]

I actually played the Archivist Artificer for a few levels and rapidly decided it wasn't for me because it lacked much to do in combat. I just ended up casting its cantrip (Scramble Thoughts or whatever it was called) over and over.

This seems much better. By taking advantage of the Wizard chassis, you add many more combat options. I loved the fantasy of being focused on the magical connection between book/writing/words/thought, so I do hope it's a theme they keep.

I would agree some of the features need work - damage type substitution doesn't really fit the flavor of the subclass, and is mechanically problematic for all the reasons noted above. Something that might be more interesting is the option to replace one component with another - particularly turning verbal components into somatic component by using the quill. That can be a ribbon most of the time, but if used cleverly can pull off some neat tricks. Maybe they could even get a once per day way to get around an expensive material component, though you'd need to limit just how expensive it can be.

My feedback would be "This is on the right track, but could use some tweaks."

[druid91]

Sorry, what do you mean by making a new spell? Like working with your DM to design a new spell, per the DMG rules? Because no way would I let my wizard player spend their downtime creating a new spell that's fireball but in a never-resisted damage type

Honestly, that sounds boring. Like, incredibly boring. That you think that's overpowered is kind of hilarious given elemental adept in the core PHB removes resistance to the chosen element so your FIRE fireballs are never resisted.

[Zevox]

Honestly, that sounds boring. Like, incredibly boring. That you think that's overpowered is kind of hilarious given elemental adept in the core PHB removes resistance to the chosen element so your FIRE fireballs are never resisted.
Elemental Adept costs a feat, and doesn't help at all against things that are immune to the element. Being able to easily change the element to something like force is just better than having Elemental Adept, by a significant margin.

[druid91]

Elemental Adept costs a feat, and doesn't help at all against things that are immune to the element. Being able to easily change the element to something like force is just better than having Elemental Adept, by a significant margin.

And this costs two levels and your subclass choice. I know which seems cheaper to me. But again, it almost seems to be tailor made for combative DMing.

[Man_Over_Game]

And this costs two levels and your subclass choice. I know which seems cheaper to me. But again, it almost seems to be tailor made for combative DMing.

Elemental Adept also only works with the single element you chose. So it still bottlenecks you into your narrative. That is, it makes you more specialized and less generic.

The Lore Wi- I mean, Scribe Wizard doesn't have that same kind of limitation, so it ends up feeling generic while having none of the weaknesses of Elemental Adept.

Personally, I think weaknesses add more to the game than strengths.

[Chaosmancer]

People are overreacting to the spell erasure thing. In reality, campaigns are finite and PCs are too--most people won't even play up to 14th level in the first place, much less be crippled by losing a handful of spells coming back from the dead that one time (or zero times) it's necessary to self-raise.

It would be different if you didn't get to choose the spells, but in actual play you'd just give up the spells you prepare least often at high level, then finish the campaign.

Sure, maybe in practice.

But, looking at the theory, you have 6 levels, and if you die you lost spells forever, and they might be spells you don't use, but if you had to use this more than once you are going to be missing enough spells to be a big impact, especially since you will most commonly lose 1st level spells

And so when you get to 17th level, Wish is pretty much a guaranteed choice. Not only for the normal reasons, but because you are incentivized to use it to get back what you lost.

Or, perhaps worse, you never use that ability ever. In which case it was a waste of printed space.






Speaking of Too Good, I think Sanctuary Vessel should have some limit on it's short rest boosts other than just time because by the time you have this, you have a grand total of 8 hours to spend in the thing, so 48 ten-minute short rests.

That limitation exists. The ability wraps around to the next column and states that once you enter the vessel, you are not allowed to enter the vessel again until after you finish a long rest.




'm honestly not sure on this one. I like the Quill and Book, though I think it needs some specification on the free ink not being used for spell scribing into the book (Just to be safe).

Full disagreement here actually. Since the Quill halves the gold you spend on all spells, it makes perfect sense that it replaces the ink you use, that is the half of the cost that is taken care of.




Honestly, that sounds boring. Like, incredibly boring. That you think that's overpowered is kind of hilarious given elemental adept in the core PHB removes resistance to the chosen element so your FIRE fireballs are never resisted.


It should be noted that costing a feat is a rather large price tag.

Additionally, elemental adept does nothing at all for immunity to fire. This ability cancels that as well. Also, Elemental adept does not make a creature vulnerable to your damage, which this ability can do as well.

When a single ability can be a Feat's biggest bonus ++ then it is fair to call it too powerful.

[Chaosmancer]

And this costs two levels and your subclass choice. I know which seems cheaper to me. But again, it almost seems to be tailor made for combative DMing.

Why do you think this is particularly made for Combative DMing?

Now, I will agree that this costs your subclass (not going to agree with the two levels. 95% of the time you were going wizard anyways) but it isn't the only ability of this subclass, even at that level.

And, the sorcerer can do something similiar, by spending one of two metamagic choices (if we assume a game going to level 9 or 10) a level later, and it has a significant cost in sorcerer points (1/3 of all sorcerery points when you get it per casting).

This only requires you have a spell that does a different damage type, and most of them are covered very quickly by taking Chromatic Orb and Magic Missile, which are standard wizard spell choices.

[MaxWilson]

That limitation exists. The ability wraps around to the next column and states that once you enter the vessel, you are not allowed to enter the vessel again until after you finish a long rest.

But that's not enough to prevent you from taking dozens of consecutive short rests in a few hours. Hello, sorlock spell slots! (Hello, Chonurgist Arcane Abeyance!)

[Zevox]

And this costs two levels and your subclass choice. I know which seems cheaper to me. But again, it almost seems to be tailor made for combative DMing.
I was more so referring to the ability to just custom-make a "Force Fireball" that you were discussing before. But as far as the subclass goes, it's even better, since you can change any spell to theoretically any damage type on the fly, without limit, once you have Chromatic Orb, Magic Missile, and one radiant and one necrotic damage spell in your spellbook, as compared to a feat that just allows you to ignore resistance with spells of a single, specific element (which tends to be a narrow selection unless you choose exactly fire, which has the problem of many things being immune to it).

Power level wise, there's no comparison - Elemental Adept is much weaker in every way.

[Damon_Tor]

The 10 minute short rest inside the vessel isn't entirely clear.

For one thing, is there a limit on how many 10 minute short rest a creature can take? If they're in there for eight hours can they take 48 short rests in a row?

Could a max level warlock spend some downtime collecting bones in there, then spend 12 hours inside there casting Animate Dead? With 4 5th level slots per short rest that would be... 5 skeletons per spell, 20 skeletons per rest, 120 skeletons per hour, 1440 skeletons summoned in total. They all exit the vessel when you do, making it one hell of a skeleton bomb.

[BloodBrandy]

Sure, maybe in practice. That limitation exists. The ability wraps around to the next column and states that once you enter the vessel, you are not allowed to enter the vessel again until after you finish a long rest.

Ah, I had missed that. I suppose it would work




Full disagreement here actually. Since the Quill halves the gold you spend on all spells, it makes perfect sense that it replaces the ink you use, that is the half of the cost that is taken care of.

No, what I mean is I can't help but think there will be some folks who will try and argue "It's free magical ink, I shouldn't need to by any to add spells to my book" or some such hogwash. That and I'm not sure adding in ink so easily removed to your added spells is a good idea

[druid91]

Why do you think this is particularly made for Combative DMing?

Now, I will agree that this costs your subclass (not going to agree with the two levels. 95% of the time you were going wizard anyways) but it isn't the only ability of this subclass, even at that level.

And, the sorcerer can do something similiar, by spending one of two metamagic choices (if we assume a game going to level 9 or 10) a level later, and it has a significant cost in sorcerer points (1/3 of all sorcerery points when you get it per casting).

This only requires you have a spell that does a different damage type, and most of them are covered very quickly by taking Chromatic Orb and Magic Missile, which are standard wizard spell choices.


By and large because it seems purpose built for that style of game.

Spellbook destruction is usually 'that's it, you're done' this comes with a built in way to not only recreate the spellbook, but also teleport it around. While Spellbook destruction is usually kind of a no-no in most campaigns it comes up frequently in combative DMing.

The ability to swap energy types helps 'find' shifted around weaknesses and immunities without having to cue up a variety of different spells and risk running out of acid spells before you get to the monster with the weakness to acid.

The resurrection allows a return from death, assuming you live long enough to get that far.

[BloodBrandy]

The resurrection comes at a pretty steep cost though. You permanently lose the use of spells, and that's a big thing for a class based entirely around spells.

[Garfunion]

Genie Patron:
Wish is the outlier here as warlocks don't actually get 9th level spell slots and thus can't use it. Mystic Arcanum doesn't work like that.
Actually it does work like that, Wish gets added to the warlocks spell list as part of the expanded spell list option and then Mystical Arcanum allows you to choose a spell from the warlock spell list. At warlock level 17 you may choose a 9th level spell(Wish) from the Warlock’s spell list and cast it with your Mystical Arcanum.

So unless there’s some kind of rule that requires the Wish spell to be cast from a spell slot, I don’t see the problem.

[Seclora]

I think the Phantom's bonus damage and Soul Trinkets need to be swapped for each other, and the Soul Trinkets are used to fuel the ability. Maybe even replace the 17th level ability with it, bonus 50% sneak attack is a very powerful damage boost for a class that deals strong damage already.

Scribe Wizard is neat, but should probably ditch the damage type flexibility. All the other features would add up to a functional, but strong subclass.

I am psyched about the Genie patron. This feels right, without being too strong, and even makes the higher levels of Warlock feel worth taking, instead of multi classing Sorcerer or Paladin. And I'm not just saying that because a 40x40x20 space is larger than my two bedroom apartment, Limited Wish is a solid ability to make the Warlock more versatile at a point in the game when that really starts to count.

[Chaosmancer]

No, what I mean is I can't help but think there will be some folks who will try and argue "It's free magical ink, I shouldn't need to by any to add spells to my book" or some such hogwash. That and I'm not sure adding in ink so easily removed to your added spells is a good idea

Why not let them? They still need to buy the components to experiment with.

Remember the PHB states that each spell costs 50 gp per level and "The cost represents the material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it"

So, if a player declares "Aha, I never need to buy magical ink again" I would declare, "You are right! It now only costs you 25 gold per level to copy a spell since you never need to buy the ink."

I feel like this is 100% the intent of the ability, because it only halves the cost when you use the Quill. So, the ink must cost 25 gp per spell level, and you cover that with the Quill's endless magic ink.

I would then say that this clarifies the other half of the wizard savant ability. The schools who specialize in certain types of magic, do not need the experimental components that are the other half of the equation, because their grounding in theoretical magic within their school allows them to skip the need to experiment.

The only issue is if a player tries to claim that they get endless magic ink (reducing cost by half) and then half that (making it a quarter) but to that I would tell them exactly this. That is not the way the ability is meant to work.




By and large because it seems purpose built for that style of game.

Spellbook destruction is usually 'that's it, you're done' this comes with a built in way to not only recreate the spellbook, but also teleport it around. While Spellbook destruction is usually kind of a no-no in most campaigns it comes up frequently in combative DMing.

The ability to swap energy types helps 'find' shifted around weaknesses and immunities without having to cue up a variety of different spells and risk running out of acid spells before you get to the monster with the weakness to acid.

The resurrection allows a return from death, assuming you live long enough to get that far.

Hmm, I see where you are thinking, but I don't think that is the intent of this class.

I think the intent of all wizards according to the company is to have back-up books. And, they gave the Enduring Spellbook in Xanathars which combats pretty much every books destruction outside of putting it through a wood chipper or an acid bath.

Swapping energy types is something they've tried to give wizards almost half a dozen times now, and it isn't going any better this time than previous times. And the ressurection is a very poor version of Revivify, a 3rd level spell.

It is useful for those games, but so is something like the Zealot (diamond shortages mean nothing to their revival), the Monk (can't disarm them) ect.

[Kane0]

Actually it does work like that, Wish gets added to the warlocks spell list as part of the expanded spell list option and then Mystical Arcanum allows you to choose a spell from the warlock spell list. At warlock level 17 you may choose a 9th level spell(Wish) from the Warlock’s spell list and cast it with your Mystical Arcanum.

So unless there’s some kind of rule that requires the Wish spell to be cast from a spell slot, I don’t see the problem.

Ah right, I was reading it like bonus spells known. Should have read the fine print.

Not sure why you'd need this with the limited wish feature, feels like a bit of a double up to me but hey, Wishes are what Genies are all about.

[Hael]

The genie warlock is ok.. I like the spell selection, the lore and the abilities, as well as the relative balance. I’m not however a fan of the hut mechanic. That’s either going to be dangerously bad, or potentially broken in a very unfun way, depending on the DMs judgement (I hate abilities that setup a DMs judgement call and potential meta gaming around ambiguously broken abilities). Anything that further hits on short rest mechanics in 5e is on shaky ground as there’s already way too many idiosyncratic and consistency issues.

The rest is really uninspired and bad. Super boring and poorly thought out subclasses. Most of the features give uninteresting lore, and not very compelling mechanics.

[BloodBrandy]

I am psyched about the Genie patron. This feels right, without being too strong, and even makes the higher levels of Warlock feel worth taking, instead of multi classing Sorcerer or Paladin. And I'm not just saying that because a 40x40x20 space is larger than my two bedroom apartment, Limited Wish is a solid ability to make the Warlock more versatile at a point in the game when that really starts to count.

I really, really like Genie as well, and I'm glad they altered the spell list based on the patron type, and having what is essentially a once a day Demiplane is really nice

[Kane0]

I think they really missed a golden opportunity combining the Talisman pact boon from the alternative features UA with the Genie as a patron.
The Genie could focus more on elemental traits alongside the wishes while the talisman boon opens the door for the extradimensional resting space as an invocation that all warlocks could choose instead of a weapon or ritual book.

[animewatcha]

Bout to look through it myself. Remember guys there is also the survey for the psionic revisited content. Do remember, roll too well and you lose your class feature with an increasing chance to do so. Be sure to use your Psi Replenishment before that d4 becomes unusable. That's because it restores the psy die size to it's starting size. Doesn't say anything about making it useable again after 'exhausting it' of sorts except by long rest.

[Segev]

Bout to look through it myself. Remember guys there is also the survey for the psionic revisited content. Do remember, roll too well and you lose your class feature with an increasing chance to do so. Be sure to use your Psi Replenishment before that d4 becomes unusable. That's because it restores the psy die size to it's starting size. Doesn't say anything about making it useable again after 'exhausting it' of sorts except by long rest.
Feel free to note that in the survey, but it seems pretty obvious that restoring the due to its starting size means restoring it, not only restoring its size if it’s still around.


Also, I do like my psions to be collected masters of the mind. I just believe that can be done with class features that let them bring the untamed raw power of the psidie under control in various ways.

[Garfunion]

I really like the Genie Patron as well. However I hope there’s an invocation that makes the genie’s vessel act like more of a bag of holding.
As it is right now it’s a once per/“day”use feature. But what if you could use an action to put/retrieve an item in your vessel. The items size and weight could be determined by warlock levels.

[iTreeby]

When it comes to the phantom, you need to remember how strange the trinkets really are, yes you could end up with an unbendable needle, or "griffon grease" or a knife that belonged to a relative, but you could also get some socks or hats or mummified elf fingers.

Trinkets are actually insane, especially if you are getting them from killing someone.

[notXanathar]

One thing I noted with the genie patron is that if you take wish for your mystic arcanum, use it for something other than spell replication, and lose it, you end up unable to cast ninth level spells at all since you can't replace mystic arcanum. I think there should be some kind of insurance for that (i.e. you can eventually replace it with another ninth level spell). I know that spell replication is it's primary use, but i think there shouldn't be this massive, permanent loss of power if you use it's other use. perhaps you would have to wait for the stress to wear off before replacing it or something.

Also, I think the damage type substitution would be fine if limited to 1/day. you would use it for a single showstopping attack, but that would be it. I feel like that would balance it reasonably well, since your forceball would be a major choice, rather than a constant spew. I also like the idea of choosing the spell when you prepare it, as mentioned previously, though again, I think that it should be limited beyond simply being a spell that you have and can use as you want.

[Razgriez]

Revived/Phantom Rogue
There's some definite marked improvements rules wise here. Less clunky abilities that are smoother, maintain the core feature of the Revived's abilities, and some removed ability bloat.

Unfortunately, I can't help but feel it lost some of the fluff/style of Revived, and went for a bit more stereotypical "Edgelord Death Dealer and Soul Taker" kind of fluff. I'm kinda disappointed that Wizard of the Coast went this route again when it comes to any of these "death" themed sub-classes. There's certainly room to change that as player/DM sees fit, but eh, needs some improvements on that side of things. And when I hear "Phantom Rogue", I think "phantom thief" in the classic sense. Not this Necromancer Rogue.

Short version:
+ Improved rules/features
- Feels too much "Necromancer Rogue", not enough "Revenant Rogue"

Noble Genie/ The Genie Patron Warlock
Again, like Revived/Phantom Rogue, there's some definite improvement and streamlining from the original rules, and overall better fluff style rules. The one thing I wish they kept in from Noble Genie, was the ability to effectively Plane Shift creatures to your patron temporarily, but arguably this frees up the DM to more readily make the Genie into a properly powerful mighty being who may demand the Warlock bring specific creatures or items of its interest with all the role-playing consequences, instead of being a glorified Banishment spell. I like the fact that the powers granted are a bit more "Selfish" in general as well.

Limited wish however is nice, and feels powerful without being actually overpowered due to how simple and efficient the limitations are (1 action spells only, no bonus, not multi-round, etc etc. 6th level or lower, any spell list)

Over all, solid improvement.

Order of the Scribe

This one...this one I have some major problems with. Its a hyper-tuned Stat Stick Wizard that has some neat fluff ideas, but its rules fail to live up to the concept of "Scribe".

First off, where's any of the writing/drawing/etc Tool Proficiency? You're supposed to be extremely good at writing and cataloguing important information, and yet you don't have Calligrapher/Cartographer/Painters/etc tools? No Book Binder's kits? Paper making? Nothing?! Seriously? C'mon man, seriously? You get a magic quill, and that's it.

As for the rest of the rules, I'm normally one to think some of the complaints about Wizard/Warlocks overshadowing Sorcerer's gets blown quite a bit out of proportion. But Order of the Scribe Wizard? Oh no, this one I'll join the grumbling Sorcerers in crying foul.

2nd level, and you're getting at-will, unlimited use, replace damage-type? Omni-discipline savant from all of the PHB Wizard Schools for reduced spell learning costs? Completely remove the penalties and dangers of losing your spell-book shy of the most immediate ones until you can get a new book? This is some extreme front-loading with some very significant benefits. Its only balancing is that you're limited for much of these features to Wizard spells, so Multi-class dips don't really benefit much.

Scribe 6 Master Scrivener wouldn't bother me so much, if it wasn't for the fact that it again removes balancing factors from base Wizard. You get a free empowered spell slot every day, and you can make more Spell Scrolls at half cost, which 5e's balance generally discourages. This is directly built on getting rid of Wizard's limited spells per day.

10 Gives you all of the benefits of Familiar, with basically none of the draw backs. "oh no, you broke my familiar's spirit form, I'll just Bonus Action restore it"

14th level on its own, is a bit of a red herring. Action to swap places with your Book Familiar isn't powerful on its own, and is basically a "woops, I somehow survived my positional mistake, let me correct it this turn". The Auto-Revive is basically a way to escape some of the more troublesome or permanent deaths.

The real issue with the 14th level ability, is that you already learn spells at half costs, so what's stopping you from having a few "throw away" spells to avoid the few times this is going to be needed. It further cheapens death in D&D for high level characters, and it puts the DM in the unenviable situation of now having to specifically hard target your spell book in a way that makes sense role-play wise, while trying to avoid hurt feelings between DM and player. And even then, that might not be enough, because you can basically just transfer all the spells you had from a lost spell book into a new book by moving your spell book's spirit over.

Short version:
-Doesn't really live up to its Scribe theme
-Low to mid level abilities are too powerful to have no real costs associated with them. Its a "Champion Wizard" that may not have specifically useful utilities like other schools, but its benefits are distinctly better than most other "generic power" sub-class
-Forces the DM into the bad situation of intentionally having to go after you or your spell book, which causes strife in a game group.

[Crucius]

Genie Patron:
Thematics: Was solid before and remains solid now. Genies make good conceptual patrons.
Spell list: Efreeti is sort of one-note compared to the others (and even Fiend patron), but looks solid. Wish is the outlier here as warlocks don't actually get 9th level spell slots and thus can't use it. Mystic Arcanum doesn't work like that.


Note that it adds the spell to the warlock spell list, allowing it to be a choice for Mystic Arcanum. It's not a known spell. This lines up with other warlock subclasses that give you 2 extra spells to choose from for each spell level, in this case 1 from the genie and another 1 from the genie-type.

[Arkhios]

-SNIP-
Regarding other wizard subclasses, we can share that neither of the wizard subclasses we’ve presented in Unearthed Arcana recently—Onomancy and Psionics—will be moving forward in our development process, since they didn’t appeal to enough people and we can explore those subclasses’ themes in other ways.

Oh my... that's a big relief!

[sayaijin]

As others have said, the Phantom should have the 9th level feature earlier. After thinking about it, I think this is how I would do it:

◆ Tokens of the Departed (Phantom Rogue 3)
As a reaction, when a creature I can see dies within 30 ft, I can create a soul trinket. While I possess a soul trinket, I have advantage on death and Con saving throws. I can have a maximum number of trinkets equal to my proficiency bonus. I can destroy a trinket as an action to gain a skill or tool proficiency that lasts until I use this feature again.
◆ Specter's Blade (Phantom Rogue 3)
Immediately after I deal my SA damage, I can target a second creature I can see within 30 ft of the first creature. If I spend a trinket, a phantom duplicate of me attacks the second creature with advantage. On a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to half my SA dice for my level rounded up. Immediately after the attack, the duplicate vanishes.
◆ Taxing Death (Phantom Rogue 9)
I can use my trinkets as if they were souls captured by the spell Soul Cage - only one use per trinket.
◆ Ghost Walk (Phantom Rogue 13)
As a bonus action, I assume a spectral form for 10 mins. I gain a flying speed of 10 ft in addition to my normal walking speed, I can hover, and attack rolls against me have disadvantage. I can also move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but I take 1d10 force damage if I end my turn inside a creature or object. I can use this feature once per long rest unless I spend a trinket to use it again.
◆ Death Knell (Phantom Rogue 17)
When I use my Specter's Blade ability, a second duplicate appears and can attack the first, second, or a third targeted creature.

This way the splash damage requires an attack roll, but it can happen more than just 2-3x a day at for most of the campaign. Also, what they gave us at level 9 was weak, so might as well just give the players something useful.

[ZRN]

They usually follow a formula that worked for everything it's applied to: Put the coolest, mechanically/thematically demanding stuff as early as you can, and then make your later features only supplement those first features. I'm not sure why they didn't do that this time, but it seems to be a dumb mistake. They did it with the Horizon Walker, where the features that make you feel like a "portal expert" come far too late, but I figured they would have learned their lesson.

Yeah, when I look at this subclass and ask, "what would it be like to play as a phantom rogue," the answer before level 9 is basically, the same as any other rogue except a few times a day you do a bit of extra damage to a secondary target. This is especially weird since almost every other rogue subclass gets stuff at third level that has a big impact on how you play the class: look at the thief, assassin, mastermind, swashbuckler, etc. and compare.

[ATHATH]

As others have said, the Phantom should have the 9th level feature earlier. After thinking about it, I think this is how I would do it:

◆ Tokens of the Departed (Phantom Rogue 3)
As a reaction, when a creature I can see dies within 30 ft, I can create a soul trinket. While I possess a soul trinket, I have advantage on death and Con saving throws. I can have a maximum number of trinkets equal to my proficiency bonus. I can destroy a trinket as an action to gain a skill or tool proficiency that lasts until I use this feature again.
◆ Specter's Blade (Phantom Rogue 3)
Immediately after I deal my SA damage, I can target a second creature I can see within 30 ft of the first creature. If I spend a trinket, a phantom duplicate of me attacks the second creature with advantage. On a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to half my SA dice for my level rounded up. Immediately after the attack, the duplicate vanishes.
◆ Taxing Death (Phantom Rogue 9)
I can use my trinkets as if they were souls captured by the spell Soul Cage - only one use per trinket.
◆ Ghost Walk (Phantom Rogue 13)
As a bonus action, I assume a spectral form for 10 mins. I gain a flying speed of 10 ft in addition to my normal walking speed, I can hover, and attack rolls against me have disadvantage. I can also move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but I take 1d10 force damage if I end my turn inside a creature or object. I can use this feature once per long rest unless I spend a trinket to use it again.
◆ Death Knell (Phantom Rogue 17)
When I use my Specter's Blade ability, a second duplicate appears and can attack the first, second, or a third targeted creature.

This way the splash damage requires an attack roll, but it can happen more than just 2-3x a day at for most of the campaign. Also, what they gave us at level 9 was weak, so might as well just give the players something useful.
This is a great improvement to the subclass, and is basically what I think the Phantom Rogue should have done, so I'm not gonna comment on that subclass.

The Genie Warlock subclass looks pretty good, although I really hate that you can only use Bottled Respite once per day (and that you can only remain inside of your vessel for 2*prof. mod hours per day). If I'm playing a genie-themed Warlock, I wanna be able to lounge around in my lamp until I'm needed/"summoned" without being forced to awkwardly just sorta wait for 8+ hours after being summoned from my lamp before I can return to it.

As for the Wizard subclass, I think the part of the 2nd level ability where you can swap the damage types of spells should be swapped with the 10th level ability (as 10th level is when most Wizard subclasses get their "holy **** what" abilities). Moving it to 10th level would unfortunately reduce its combo-ing potential (with stuff like Tempest Cleric), though, which is sad; maybe give the ability at level 2, but make its number of uses/day be restricted until 10th level? The 6th level ability is just kinda... bland and unadventurous (from a meta perspective). It's also a bit disappointing that, once again(? I coulda sworn that I've seen other features with this restriction before as well...), nobody but you can use your temporary magic items (in this case, scrolls). The spirit from the (normal) 10th level ability also feels sort of lame, especially since it's a level 10 feature (and in comparison to what the Archivist got, which was pretty darn cool). It should be a stand, not a glorified familiar!

[Misterwhisper]

Phantom Rogue:

This just seems wonky to me.
Half sneak attack to someone else from wailing?
Stealing parts of souls to fuel things?
That does not say rogue to me, it sounds more like a necromancy type caster.

Nothing too good or bad power wise though.


Genie Warlock.

This seems like it would be fun to play.
I can picture a temperamental actor or diva just yelling that why will be in their trailer and proofing into their vessel.

Love the theme and the visuals but the powers are kind of Meh.


Lore wizard:

Level 3, can make every spell they have do force damage because they took magic missile at level 1 like everyone else.

Nope. A huge nope.

If anyone should get elemental switching it should be sorcerer. At the cost of sorcery points.

After that just more recycled brokenness.

Not happening in my games.

Stop making wizards even more broken.

[jaappleton]

The Wizard subclass is fine overall. Ability to change the damage types of a spell should be limited to elemental damage types only, and the likes of Force, Psychic, Radiant & Necrotic should not be applicable. It’s fine aside from that.

I’ve seen many comment about it, “Didn’t they learn their lesson last time?!”, etc. You’re all missing something very important:

WOTC DOES NOT WANT TO CREATE 40 NEW SPELLS JUST TO COVER ALL DAMAGE TYPES. If I want to make a thematic Cold mage, I’ve got Ice Knife and then pretty much jack cheese until Cone of Cold. Right?

They love the PHB+1 guideline they use. It’s far simpler and easier to say “make Fireball deal Cold” than it is to create Cryoball. It makes it a subclass feature, and it handles what needs to be done.

Don’t forget Sorcerers get a similar ability in the Class Variant UA from back in early November.

The ability to change damage types is going to happen. That’s going to be a thing. As long as it’s restricted to “elemental” damage types and they leave off Force, Psychic, Necrotic & Radiant, it’s pretty much fine.

[P. G. Macer]

The Wizard subclass is fine overall. Ability to change the damage types of a spell should be limited to elemental damage types only, and the likes of Force, Psychic, Radiant & Necrotic should not be applicable. It’s fine aside from that.

I’ve seen many comment about it, “Didn’t they learn their lesson last time?!”, etc. You’re all missing something very important:

WOTC DOES NOT WANT TO CREATE 40 NEW SPELLS JUST TO COVER ALL DAMAGE TYPES. If I want to make a thematic Cold mage, I’ve got Ice Knife and then pretty much jack cheese until Cone of Cold. Right?

They love the PHB+1 guideline they use. It’s far simpler and easier to say “make Fireball deal Cold” than it is to create Cryoball. It makes it a subclass feature, and it handles what needs to be done.

Don’t forget Sorcerers get a similar ability in the Class Variant UA from back in early November.

The ability to change damage types is going to happen. That’s going to be a thing. As long as it’s restricted to “elemental” damage types and they leave off Force, Psychic, Necrotic & Radiant, it’s pretty much fine.

The reason people are complaining about this ability and not Elemental Spell is twofold:


The ability to switch a spell’s damage type is far more thematic for a sorcerer than for a wizard.
Elemental Spell has costs, both a resource cost in sorcery points, and an opportunity cost in metamagic options.

[Evaar]

So if you use Limited Wish to cast Leomund's Secret Chest, have you created an exquisite chest worth 5,000g?

I know it says you ignore the material component requirements of the spell, but the chest is sort of intrinsic to the function of the spell. So does it create the exquisite chest? Or does it make a worthless box that fulfills the same function?

[Segev]

So if you use Limited Wish to cast Leomund's Secret Chest, have you created an exquisite chest worth 5,000g?

I know it says you ignore the material component requirements of the spell, but the chest is sort of intrinsic to the function of the spell. So does it create the exquisite chest? Or does it make a worthless box that fulfills the same function?

"Ask your DM."

Personally, I'd let it make the chest. You probably get the same chest each time, though, from then on out. So if you try selling it, you're running a scam rather than manufacturing wealth.

[Evaar]

How does Word Of Recall work with Limited Wish?

The feature exempts you from "the requirements in that spell;" and states "the spell simply takes effect..."

Word Of Recall requires you to designate a sanctuary beforehand and cast the spell in that sanctuary. That sanctuary also has to be dedicated to your deity.

So wipe out all of those requirements - you don't have to designate it beforehand, it doesn't have to be dedicated to your deity, and you don't have to have cast the spell in that location previously.

Obviously you don't want it just teleporting the party anywhere they want. I would figure most of us would agree it should be limited to "somewhere you've physically been" at least, right?


All told, it's not a super exploitable feature. Those are the biggest ones I could find - that and getting a free circle of protection from Summon Greater Demon, since it's part of the spell and you don't have to provide the material component. That one's pretty minor. So pretty good job on designing that feature so it's useful but doesn't break the game.

[Foxydono]

Why is the general consensus that swapping damage types is OP? Sure, the lore wizard was OP, but that was mostly because of swapping saving throws. Also, upping DC and ditching spell slots dit extra damage etc etc.

Sure, swapping damage types is powerful, but it won't break anything. If i'm fighting a demon or a red dragon, I won't be casting fireball and ill do other stuff. With the scribe wizard I might make a force fireball. Good for me. But nothing broken or OP. Just very flexible.

[nickl_2000]

"Ask your DM."

Personally, I'd let it make the chest. You probably get the same chest each time, though, from then on out. So if you try selling it, you're running a scam rather than manufacturing wealth.

I don't see that much of a difference between the two :smalltongue:

[Dork_Forge]

The Wizard subclass is fine overall. Ability to change the damage types of a spell should be limited to elemental damage types only, and the likes of Force, Psychic, Radiant & Necrotic should not be applicable. It’s fine aside from that.

I’ve seen many comment about it, “Didn’t they learn their lesson last time?!”, etc. You’re all missing something very important:

WOTC DOES NOT WANT TO CREATE 40 NEW SPELLS JUST TO COVER ALL DAMAGE TYPES. If I want to make a thematic Cold mage, I’ve got Ice Knife and then pretty much jack cheese until Cone of Cold. Right?

They love the PHB+1 guideline they use. It’s far simpler and easier to say “make Fireball deal Cold” than it is to create Cryoball. It makes it a subclass feature, and it handles what needs to be done.

Don’t forget Sorcerers get a similar ability in the Class Variant UA from back in early November.

The ability to change damage types is going to happen. That’s going to be a thing. As long as it’s restricted to “elemental” damage types and they leave off Force, Psychic, Necrotic & Radiant, it’s pretty much fine.

But if you wanted to make a thematic ice mage, you don't see something wrong with the 'best' way being to be a Scribe specific Wizard?

The Sorcerer metamagic is a different kettle of fish, it has two costs (SP and opportunity as already mentioned), fits the Sorcerer better and is a main class ability rather than an odd duck subclass one.

As for your specific example of Cold, as a Wizard there's (ignoring Absorb Elements) the following cold spells:

Cantrips: Frostbite, Ray of Frost

1st: Chromatic Orb, Ice Knife

2nd: Dragons Breath, Snilloc's Snowball Swarm

3rd: Glyph of Warding (eh)

4th: Elemental Bane, Fire Shield, Ice Storm

So before we get to Cone of Cold there's something at each level with a total of 10 spells, you're hardly struggling for something to do beside's cast Ice Knife and they're mosty upcastable as well I believe.

Damage swapping isn't a bad thing, as long as it isn't at will and preferably not on the Wizard who, let's face it, is already starting on a stronger base than other casters and doesn't need any power creep.

[Luccan]

Why is the general consensus that swapping damage types is OP? Sure, the lore wizard was OP, but that was mostly because of swapping saving throws. Also, upping DC and ditching spell slots dit extra damage etc etc.

Sure, swapping damage types is powerful, but it won't break anything. If i'm fighting a demon or a red dragon, I won't be casting fireball and ill do other stuff. With the scribe wizard I might make a force fireball. Good for me. But nothing broken or OP. Just very flexible.

It does kind of give you dominant strategies, which I think is the problem people have. Sure, most of the time I'm going to be casting Fireball anyway, but now it's only Fireball and there's little chance anything will resist it. Then, as someone pointed out, Chromatic Orb lets you cover most energy types with no complex spell choices. And I'm not a fan with it being unlimited. Even though I don't believe the UA with the Sorcerer energy swapping Meta Magic will ever get printed in something official, even as a semi-official thing like UA, it'll feel cheap if wizards get it for free and see that printed.

[jaappleton]

I wholeheartedly agree that Wizards shouldn’t be able to swap a damage type for free when Sorcs have a cost attached to it.

My point was that it’s going to happen. Taking existing spells and altering the damage type is going to be a thing. How often it can happen (x times per rest = to proficiency mod? Spellcasting mod?) is up for debate, but charging one class to do it and letting another do it at will is not cool, of that I absolutely agree.

The last thing Wizards need is another advantage over Sorcs.

[Evaar]

On reflection, I don't think swapping damage types is all that problematic. It only impacts a segment of the spells Wizards are going to use; we all know Blasting isn't necessarily the best use of a Wizard's slots.

Still, I don't like that feature attached to this subclass. It just doesn't fit the theme. Arguably you could try to connect it because this Wizard is about knowledge, so is more likely to understand "metamagic" as a concept (unfortunate that Sorcerers have a feature by that name already...) and be able to try experimenting with variations on the standard formulae...

But that's a bit of a roundabout way to get there. Seems like you could do better with something like "Expertise on Arcana checks" or even something like "If an enemy is casting a spell in your spell book, you can identify what spell they are casting without using an action or making an Arcana check."

I would save swapping damage types for something more explicitly like an Elementalist or a Planar Sage, where the theme is their broad understanding of different energies.

[jaappleton]

On reflection, I don't think swapping damage types is all that problematic. It only impacts a segment of the spells Wizards are going to use; we all know Blasting isn't necessarily the best use of a Wizard's slots.

Still, I don't like that feature attached to this subclass. It just doesn't fit the theme. Arguably you could try to connect it because this Wizard is about knowledge, so is more likely to understand "metamagic" as a concept (unfortunate that Sorcerers have a feature by that name already...) and be able to try experimenting with variations on the standard formulae...

But that's a bit of a roundabout way to get there. Seems like you could do better with something like "Expertise on Arcana checks" or even something like "If an enemy is casting a spell in your spell book, you can identify what spell they are casting without using an action or making an Arcana check."

I would save swapping damage types for something more explicitly like an Elementalist or a Planar Sage, where the theme is their broad understanding of different energies.

I interpreted it as “your spell book is alive and can change one damage type to another spell written in it”.

[No brains]

I kind of want to play a Dao Warlock just so I can spam Wall of Stone and turn D&D into LEGO.

I wouldn't even want to continue adventuring at that point. Hell, I wouldn't even want to contract my services, I just want to pollute the Earth with castles everywhere.

[ZRN]

As others have said, the Phantom should have the 9th level feature earlier. After thinking about it, I think this is how I would do it:

◆ Tokens of the Departed (Phantom Rogue 3)
As a reaction, when a creature I can see dies within 30 ft, I can create a soul trinket. While I possess a soul trinket, I have advantage on death and Con saving throws. I can have a maximum number of trinkets equal to my proficiency bonus. I can destroy a trinket as an action to gain a skill or tool proficiency that lasts until I use this feature again.
◆ Specter's Blade (Phantom Rogue 3)
Immediately after I deal my SA damage, I can target a second creature I can see within 30 ft of the first creature. If I spend a trinket, a phantom duplicate of me attacks the second creature with advantage. On a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to half my SA dice for my level rounded up. Immediately after the attack, the duplicate vanishes.
◆ Taxing Death (Phantom Rogue 9)
I can use my trinkets as if they were souls captured by the spell Soul Cage - only one use per trinket.
◆ Ghost Walk (Phantom Rogue 13)
As a bonus action, I assume a spectral form for 10 mins. I gain a flying speed of 10 ft in addition to my normal walking speed, I can hover, and attack rolls against me have disadvantage. I can also move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but I take 1d10 force damage if I end my turn inside a creature or object. I can use this feature once per long rest unless I spend a trinket to use it again.
◆ Death Knell (Phantom Rogue 17)
When I use my Specter's Blade ability, a second duplicate appears and can attack the first, second, or a third targeted creature.

This way the splash damage requires an attack roll, but it can happen more than just 2-3x a day at for most of the campaign. Also, what they gave us at level 9 was weak, so might as well just give the players something useful.

I like the approach! Here's how I'd do it:

Level 3: Whispers of the Dead (Unchanged)

Level 3: Tokens of the Departed
When a life ends in your presence, youÂ’re able to snatch a token from the departing soul, a sliver of its life essence that takes physical form: as a reaction when a creature you can see dies within 30 feet of you, you open your free hand and a Tiny trinket appears there, a soul trinket. The DM chooses the trinketÂ’s form or has you roll on the Trinkets table in the PlayerÂ’s Handbook to determine it. While the soul trinket is on your person, you have advantage on death saving throws and Constitution saving throws, as your vitality is enhanced by the life essence within the object. You can have a maximum number of soul trinkets equal to your proficiency bonus, and you canÂ’t create one while at your maximum. When you deal sneak attack damage, as part of that attack you can destroy one of your soul trinkets, no matter where itÂ’s located, releasing the tormented soul to attack a nearby enemy. When you do so, a target of your choosing within 30 feet must make a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or take psychic damage equal to half the sneak attack damage you dealt.

Level 9: Token Mastery
As an action, you can destroy a token you've created to have one of the following effects:
Query the Dead: You can ask the spirit associated with the trinket one question. The spirit appears to you and answers in a language it knew in life. ItÂ’s under no obligation to be truthful, and it answers as concisely as possible, eager to be free.
Spectral Vision: You project an image of the departed soul in agony; creatures of your choosing within 60 feet must make a DC 16 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of it for one round.
Dark Inspiration: You receive one d6 inspiration die, which you can add to one of your saving throws, ability checks, or attack rolls within the next 10 minutes, per the Bardic Inspiration ability.

Level 13: Ghost Walk (unchanged)

[Lockwolfe]

Is changing damage types overpowered? Probably not. Vulnerabilities are pretty rare and Wizards should have a lot of damage types anyway. I agree that the real issue is that this should be a Sorcerer thing. I don’t mind a little bit of toe-stepping, but it sucks that Sorcerers have such a high cost to do the one thing that they’re designed to do, alter their magic, and with little variety in how they can do it. The Sorcerer needs a few more toys before the Wizard should start borrowing them. The variant class features were a nice start, but did little to address the real issue with the Sorcerer.

[Dork_Forge]

Is changing damage types overpowered? Probably not. Vulnerabilities are pretty rare and Wizards should have a lot of damage types anyway. I agree that the real issue is that this should be a Sorcerer thing. I don’t mind a little bit of toe-stepping, but it sucks that Sorcerers have such a high cost to do the one thing that they’re designed to do, alter their magic, and with little variety in how they can do it. The Sorcerer needs a few more toys before the Wizard should start borrowing them. The variant class features were a nice start, but did little to address the real issue with the Sorcerer.

It's not just about targeting vulnerabilities, it's more about skirting around resistances and immunities by switching to a little to not resisted damage type. Fireball is already overtuned, switch it from one of the most resisted/immune types to Force and you start to have an issue.

[Lockwolfe]

It's not just about targeting vulnerabilities, it's more about skirting around resistances and immunities by switching to a little to not resisted damage type. Fireball is already overtuned, switch it from one of the most resisted/immune types to Force and you start to have an issue.

I do think it should be restricted to elemental damage types. Making all of your spells do force damage is boring and kind of annoying. Even so, most encounters it won’t matter that much, and the worst that happens is that your spells do the damage they were intended to do.

[Kane0]

Easy patch i just thought up: when you change damage type to that of another spell you have prepared, you lose that spell as prepared and must prep it again.

Corollary: being able to prep a spell faster instead of one of the other ribbons

[Misterwhisper]

I do think it should be restricted to elemental damage types. Making all of your spells do force damage is boring and kind of annoying. Even so, most encounters it won’t matter that much, and the worst that happens is that your spells do the damage they were intended to do.

That is a pretty big bonus when many monsters have resistance to damage of multiple types.

It is essential the same but word it like: “your spells ignore resistance and immunities.”

Take magic missile at level 1, a very common spell, now every spell you ever throw can just do force damage.

Also if something has a weakness to a damage type you automatically have their silver bullet.

Undead?
Radiant magic missiles, radiant lightning bolt.

Elemental dragons?
So what? Force ball, force rays.

All at level 3, no action, every spell, all day.

Most classes don’t even get capstones that good.

[Lockwolfe]

That is a pretty big bonus when many monsters have resistance to damage of multiple types.

It is essential the same but word it like: “your spells ignore resistance and immunities.”

Take magic missile at level 1, a very common spell, now every spell you ever throw can just do force damage.

Also if something has a weakness to a damage type you automatically have their silver bullet.

Undead?
Radiant magic missiles, radiant lightning bolt.

Elemental dragons?
So what? Force ball, force rays.

All at level 3, no action, every spell, all day.

Most classes don’t even get capstones that good.

Yeah, I think that’s a good reason this type of ability should be restricted to elemental damage types. Still, overcoming resistance is as simple as choosing a different spell anyway. If you’re fighting a red dragon you’re going to Lightning Bolt it instead of Fireball. I really don’t see dealing intended damage as overpowered.

I don’t think the Wizard subclass should get this anyway. Doesn’t fit the theme and, again, should really have been built into the Sorcerer.

[Telwar]

Honestly, the most important thing for me here is the that survey about the Psionics UA is finally up. I hope they get enough negative feedback about the Psi Dice that they don't go forward with that, personally.

Thank you for the reminder!

[Razgriez]

Why is the general consensus that swapping damage types is OP? Sure, the lore wizard was OP, but that was mostly because of swapping saving throws. Also, upping DC and ditching spell slots dit extra damage etc etc.

Sure, swapping damage types is powerful, but it won't break anything. If i'm fighting a demon or a red dragon, I won't be casting fireball and ill do other stuff. With the scribe wizard I might make a force fireball. Good for me. But nothing broken or OP. Just very flexible.

The main issue, it lets you get around Resistances easily and its at no cost, on subclass which is already stomping all over Sorcerer's role.

if it was something along the lines of "You convert all elemental type damage (fire, thunder, lightning, acid) into Cold damage", or have some sort of limitations (X number of spells you know are "rewritten" spell formulas to convert damage type, X/uses per day, etc), people would be more accepting of it. But it doesn't do that.

Sorcerer's whole concept is that by sacrificing versatility of spells known you instead get much further mileage out of those fewer spells, including the Variant rule for energy conversion, at the cost of its Sorcerer Point resource. The same resource they also have to rely upon on recharging their spells in a desperate situation. Usually its supplemented by certain Sub-class options or feats to help overcome those situations.

Scribe Wizard doesn't have those issues when it comes to damage type, and when combined with Scribe Wizard effectively getting easier additional spells and additional spell slots, that's kinda of an insult to Sorcerers.

[werescythe]

I really like the Genie.

[Segev]

I don't see that much of a difference between the two :smalltongue:

Your buyers will!

And they may have means to inform you that they noticed.

[Dr. Cliché]

As others have said, the Phantom should have the 9th level feature earlier. After thinking about it, I think this is how I would do it:

◆ Tokens of the Departed (Phantom Rogue 3)
As a reaction, when a creature I can see dies within 30 ft, I can create a soul trinket. While I possess a soul trinket, I have advantage on death and Con saving throws. I can have a maximum number of trinkets equal to my proficiency bonus. I can destroy a trinket as an action to gain a skill or tool proficiency that lasts until I use this feature again.
◆ Specter's Blade (Phantom Rogue 3)
Immediately after I deal my SA damage, I can target a second creature I can see within 30 ft of the first creature. If I spend a trinket, a phantom duplicate of me attacks the second creature with advantage. On a hit, it deals psychic damage equal to half my SA dice for my level rounded up. Immediately after the attack, the duplicate vanishes.
◆ Taxing Death (Phantom Rogue 9)
I can use my trinkets as if they were souls captured by the spell Soul Cage - only one use per trinket.
◆ Ghost Walk (Phantom Rogue 13)
As a bonus action, I assume a spectral form for 10 mins. I gain a flying speed of 10 ft in addition to my normal walking speed, I can hover, and attack rolls against me have disadvantage. I can also move through creatures and objects as if they were difficult terrain, but I take 1d10 force damage if I end my turn inside a creature or object. I can use this feature once per long rest unless I spend a trinket to use it again.
◆ Death Knell (Phantom Rogue 17)
When I use my Specter's Blade ability, a second duplicate appears and can attack the first, second, or a third targeted creature.

This way the splash damage requires an attack roll, but it can happen more than just 2-3x a day at for most of the campaign. Also, what they gave us at level 9 was weak, so might as well just give the players something useful.

I think this would have been a vast improvement and would make for a class I'd really want to play..

[Waazraath]

I like the Warlock subclass, but getting fly as an ability while having a pact with a Dao really needs to go. The rogue is underpowered compared to other subclasses afaic, and the wizard.... meh. I tend to agree that the ability to switch damage type is too strong (and more fitting for a sorcerer than a wizard), but besides, it's the most boring archetype I've seen in a long time. I don't think it fills any conceptual niche.

[Bakeru]

I just want to point out that the rogue mentions both shadar-kai and the Shadowfell, adding another point (besides the genie warlock, and the summon spells in recent UA) pointing at "we're probably getting a book about the planes."

[MaxWilson]

I like the Warlock subclass, but getting fly as an ability while having a pact with a Dao really needs to go. The rogue is underpowered compared to other subclasses afaic, and the wizard.... meh. I tend to agree that the ability to switch damage type is too strong (and more fitting for a sorcerer than a wizard), but besides, it's the most boring archetype I've seen in a long time. I don't think it fills any conceptual niche.

...why pick on the Dao? Dao can totally fly, just like all the other genies.

[Waazraath]

...why pick on the Dao? Dao can totally fly, just like all the other genies.

Ah, didn't realize it was so this edition, in that case it doesn't matter that much. In 3.x, that I played most, the earth genies couldn't, got bonusses against stuff on the ground and minusses against stuff in the air (maybe even in water also). That seemed incompatible, but if that's different this edition, then nvm: warlock subclass is just nice.

[Pex]

I wholeheartedly agree that Wizards shouldn’t be able to swap a damage type for free when Sorcs have a cost attached to it.

My point was that it’s going to happen. Taking existing spells and altering the damage type is going to be a thing. How often it can happen (x times per rest = to proficiency mod? Spellcasting mod?) is up for debate, but charging one class to do it and letting another do it at will is not cool, of that I absolutely agree.

The last thing Wizards need is another advantage over Sorcs.

I agree. I don't mind energy swapping. I like the idea. It should be Sorcerer only. If Wizard was to do it Evoker should have been the one and even then only for the elemental types (fire, cold, electricity, acid), maybe add force and thunder at a higher level but not necessary. Since that's not happening, leave it Sorcerer only.

[Nagog]

it could work you just had to put on a class that doesn't have access to every single damage type. The artificer is actually the best candidate IMO or druid limited to the basic elemental damage types.
I think it's interesting that they limited it to damage types you can deal with another spell in your spellbook. Force damage is readily available with Magic Missile, but I can't think of a wizard spell that deals Radient damage off the top of my head.

[Nagog]

Why is the general consensus that swapping damage types is OP? Sure, the lore wizard was OP, but that was mostly because of swapping saving throws. Also, upping DC and ditching spell slots dit extra damage etc etc.

Sure, swapping damage types is powerful, but it won't break anything. If i'm fighting a demon or a red dragon, I won't be casting fireball and ill do other stuff. With the scribe wizard I might make a force fireball. Good for me. But nothing broken or OP. Just very flexible.

This is my thought exactly. I'm just happy with the feature because we may actually see people use Elemental Adept for something other than Fire. This makes a Poison build viable, and even further makes builds focusing on less common damage types (Ice for example) possible.

[stoutstien]

I think it's interesting that they limited it to damage types you can deal with another spell in your spellbook. Force damage is readily available with Magic Missile, but I can't think of a wizard spell that deals Radient damage off the top of my head.
Off the cuff I know Sickening radiance, sunbeam/burst, crown of stars, and wall of light all do radiant.
So from memory there at least one lv 4 spell that is both a solid pick on its own and adds radiant to the spell book.

[jaappleton]

Off the cuff I know Sickening radiance, sunbeam/burst, crown of stars, and wall of light all do radiant.
So from memory there at least one lv 4 spell that is both a solid pick on its own and adds radiant to the spell book.

It’s available at 1st level if your table allows the Ravnica backgrounds, as one grants Guiding Bolt.

[JumboWheat01]

This is my thought exactly. I'm just happy with the feature because we may actually see people use Elemental Adept for something other than Fire. This makes a Poison build viable, and even further makes builds focusing on less common damage types (Ice for example) possible.

I don't think Poison would be viable, considering the immunity to it. It has less resistances than Fire, but a lot more immunities. And as I learned when trying to do up a Green Draconic Sorcerer, Elemental Adept doesn't work with Poison damage. Also doesn't work against immunities, but that's neither here nor there.

[Kane0]

Those immunities are usually clumped into things like constructs, fiends and undead though. Should be mostly fine if you can avoid them.

[MaxWilson]

Those immunities are usually clumped into things like constructs, fiends and undead though. Should be mostly fine if you can avoid them.

Yeah, one interesting thing about LudicSavant's thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF) is that I never realized before just how many monsters are NOT immune or resistant to poison. 214 out of 726 creatures are poison-resistant or -immune, but that still leaves 512/726 that you can poison.

I guess I had the impression somehow that the fraction of immune creatures was closer to 1/2 than 1/3.

[JumboWheat01]

True, true. Guess I just ran into undead an awful lot.

[Nidgit]

Just realized you could go Genie Pact of the Chain for a turtle familiar and go full Coco Jumbo. Pairs nicely with a Way of the Astral Self Monk.

[Segev]

Just realized you could go Genie Pact of the Chain for a turtle familiar and go full Coco Jumbo. Pairs nicely with a Way of the Astral Self Monk.

If all you want is a turtle, wouldn't Pact of the Tome and Book of Secrets be better?

[Justin Sane]

I think it's interesting that they limited it to damage types you can deal with another spell in your spellbook. Force damage is readily available with Magic Missile, but I can't think of a wizard spell that deals Radient damage off the top of my head.


Off the cuff I know Sickening radiance, sunbeam/burst, crown of stars, and wall of light all do radiant.
So from memory there at least one lv 4 spell that is both a solid pick on its own and adds radiant to the spell book.

Full list of radiant Wizard spells:
Sickening Radiance, Dawn, Wall of Light, Sunbeam, Crown of Stars, Sunburst.

So no radiant damage before level 7, and that's by preparing a somewhat niche spell.

[Nidgit]

If all you want is a turtle, wouldn't Pact of the Tome and Book of Secrets be better?
While you can hear outside your vessel, you can't communicate to the outside through normal means. Voice of the Chain Master allows you to circumvent that and get some nice Requiem Polnareff action too.

Though you could probably get your DM to allow an imp or quasit familiar to shapeshift into a turtle because it's certainly no more powerful than what they're already capable of.

[werescythe]

I almost liked the Archivist subclass, then I read the last ability. For a class where you have to spend time and resources to gain most of your spells, to have an ability that locks you off from that spell for just 1 HP is just horrid. And only Wish can bring the spell(s) used for it back is also disappointing.

Definitely not a fan. :smallfrown:

[micahaphone]

I almost liked the Archivist subclass, then I read the last ability. For a class where you have to spend time and resources to gain most of your spells, to have an ability that locks you off from that spell for just 1 HP is just horrid. And only Wish can bring the spell(s) used for it back is also disappointing.

Definitely not a fan. :smallfrown:

That top level ability is only for a TPK, right? So that your wizard can come back, dip into the party coffers for some resurrections, and boom your party is alive again. I think if they clarified that using Wish's "recreate 8th level or lower" function was the part used to return spells, so that you don't risk losing Wish just to slowly repair your spellbook.


I'm still not a fan of the extra-bookish wizard being a better elemental caster than a draconic sorcerer, the elemental caster, but that particular ability doesn't rub me the wrong way.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

I am digging this wizard; that come back to life but lose spells thing is a nifty tradeoff.

For the rogue, I think they should have swapped the 13th and 17th level benefits.

No, if you look at the way rogue subclasses work the level 17 power is almost always a big offense buff (see at Burglar, Scout, and Assassin).

[werescythe]

That top level ability is only for a TPK, right? So that your wizard can come back, dip into the party coffers for some resurrections, and boom your party is alive again. I think if they clarified that using Wish's "recreate 8th level or lower" function was the part used to return spells, so that you don't risk losing Wish just to slowly repair your spellbook.

From my experience if you're 14th level and your party is wiped, more then likely the thing that killed you will still be there a minute after, and will proceed to kill you again... and again... and again.

Personally I would rather have something that helps me avoid dying (granted the teleportation ability... sort of helps with that... sort of).

Again that is just my opinion. Personally I would rather have had them take one of the Omenancy abilities (since apparently they are getting rid of that subclass... which honestly is a shame) and apply that somehow.

[micahaphone]

From my experience if you're 14th level and your party is wiped, more then likely the thing that killed you will still be there a minute after, and will proceed to kill you again... and again... and again.

Personally I would rather have something that helps me avoid dying (granted the teleportation ability... sort of helps with that... sort of).

Again that is just my opinion. Personally I would rather have had them take one of the Omenancy abilities (since apparently they are getting rid of that subclass... which honestly is a shame) and apply that somehow.

Good point, as written this is only useful if you tpk and the enemy is severely wounded and retreats immediately after your wizard bites it. Way too niche.

Personally, I thought the onomancy wizard was way too dependent on a single save from an opponent, and the result was still too close to metamagic. Mostly, if you want true names to be a thing in your magic system, it needs to be baked in at the core level of the game, not briefly mentioned in the fluff of a subclass.

[animewatcha]

Just got done with the survey. And noticed something about the Metabolic control feat. Gain benefits of short rest by decreasing psionic die size. Translation: Monk -Spam Ki, meditate, Spam Ki, mediate, Spam Ki, Psi-ReplenishmentIf doable while 'unavailable' ( if not doable while 'unavailable' then it is an acknowledgement by WOTC that they STILL can't word things right and that this Psionic Die system shouldn't be used ) potentially move psi-replenishment up a couple of steps depending, Meditate, ki spam, etc. Adjust accordingly for other short rest classes. If possible pass method along other people until reaches WOTC or one of their celebrities people with influence in WOTC so that psionic Die system can be trashed and never touched again.

I believe Mike Mearls once tweeted that anything that is broken, he can counterbreak 5 times over when fans told him of concerns with OP domains or something. This shows quite some arrogance and while he is a player on occasion, he is SEVERELY underestimating the customer-player.

[Arkhios]

I believe Mike Mearls once tweeted that anything that is broken, he can counterbreak 5 times over when fans told him of concerns with OP domains or something. This shows quite some arrogance and while he is a player on occasion, he is SEVERELY underestimating the customer-player.

Mike Mearls hasn't been part of D&D design team for almost a year now. There might be a reason between the lines above.

[animewatcha]

I may have gotten the person wrong. It might have been Christopher Perkins. I can't bring it on google. It was definately involving talk about a domain posted on twitter kinda like domain posted in Unearthed Arcana.

-edit- Nope. It was Mike Mearls. found handy tool, but can't link
-edit2- Scrubbed the link,

[Amechra]

Just got done with the survey. And noticed something about the Metabolic control feat. Gain benefits of short rest by decreasing psionic die size. Translation: Monk -Spam Ki, meditate, Spam Ki, mediate, Spam Ki, Psi-ReplenishmentIf doable while 'unavailable' ( if not doable while 'unavailable' then it is an acknowledgement by WOTC that they STILL can't word things right and that this Psionic Die system shouldn't be used ) potentially move psi-replenishment up a couple of steps depending, Meditate, ki spam, etc. Adjust accordingly for other short rest classes. If possible pass method along other people until reaches WOTC or one of their celebrities people with influence in WOTC so that psionic Die system can be trashed and never touched again.

I believe Mike Mearls once tweeted that anything that is broken, he can counterbreak 5 times over when fans told him of concerns with OP domains or something. This shows quite some arrogance and while he is a player on occasion, he is SEVERELY underestimating the customer-player.

Except you can only use Metabolic Control like that once per long rest.

[Dr. Cliché]

I almost liked the Archivist subclass, then I read the last ability. For a class where you have to spend time and resources to gain most of your spells, to have an ability that locks you off from that spell for just 1 HP is just horrid. And only Wish can bring the spell(s) used for it back is also disappointing.

Definitely not a fan. :smallfrown:

I'd have been on board if it just removed those spells from your spellbook. So you can potentially get them back, albeit at the cost of time and money (assuming there's a place to actually buy scrolls).

It would also reward a wizard who scribes a lot of extra spells into their spellbook, as they'd have a greater surplus of (somewhat) expendable spells to get rid of before needing to erase their most important ones.

However, preventing you from ever casting those spells again without using Wish just seems completely over the top. Especially for an effect that isn't even that great to begin with.

[Joe the Rat]

All in all, I think this is one of their better sets, and a dramatically better 2nd draft. Overall.

Phantom: A class option that requires a specific event (you died and came back) creates an unneeded requisite, or throwing "did I mention I died and came back to life" into the backstory. I'm glad they dropped that in favor of ONE explanation among many. The Soul Trinket mechanics is interesting - and I like a class that has an interesting, thematic element (psychometry + sticky fingers). Using it to fuel later powers is good. Ghost Walking brings Ghost Faced Killer and Phantom Assassin back onto the field. But most importantly: No Ghost Lasers. Yes, adding a cool trick to a Rogue is fun, but maybe on a theme where blasting things fits every interpretation. If you want to be Danny Phantom play an Undying Warlock.


Genie: Much cleaner, much more in tune, and the vessel is kind of neat. The only oddity is it is literally turning the Warlock into the genie - something that might fit better on a Sorcerer (for D&D lore), but is a common trope of genies in modern fiction - that mortals can be bound as genies. But I have always felt that Warlocks and Sorcerers have a blurry line of origin lore. Limited use Limited Wish. This is a 10/10 for me.


Scribe: Foundationally, this is a good generalist. You do spell book stuff better, ritual casting better, scribe scrolls better (which makes the artificer jealous!). You get the damage swapper, which is always going to have Force as an option because Magic Missile. Putting a use limiter (1/SR, Profmod / LR, Intmod / LR) would trim this back to reasonable - and Sorcerers need the elemental metamagic as well! You could also up the bookkeeping and require a spell of equal or greater level have the element you need. Lightningball is fine, but no Forceball unless you've got a Bigby's in your pocket. Again, more bookkeeping, but it would add some fun choices in advancement.

On the thematic oddities, I am still not a fan of Cortana. Sentient spellbook is cool, Sentient spellbook holographic avatar is weird. Sentient Spellbook avatar AND a familiar... is getting kind of crowded. Give me something that says "Bob the Skull," and we'll talk. As an alternative, something tied to Writing or Lore might be nice - these guys ought to be the Runes and Sigils experts. Pairing this with the Spellwrought Tattoos...

Burning spells to return to life - I get where that fits thematically, but this is sort of a dead feature. By the time you get it, death is a lot harder to achieve, particularly on a class that should be clever enough to avoid that kind of risk. And there is a good chance someone can do something to bring you back. A feature that you will probably never use is not a feature.

[animewatcha]

Except you can only use Metabolic Control like that once per long rest.

It would figure I would miss some wording. Still psionic die is Bad.

[Segev]

It would figure I would miss some wording. Still psionic die is Bad.

I still disagree with that sentiment.

[Arkhios]

Psionic Die isn't bad idea. It's the current implementation that is.

[Segev]

Psionic Die isn't bad idea. It's the current implementation that is.
My only major complaint with it is the flavor about the way it shrinks and grows. It's called out as "over-extending" and as "conserving your power," but you don't lack control over when you conserve your power.

[Arkhios]

My only major complaint with it is the flavor about the way it shrinks and grows. It's called out as "over-extending" and as "conserving your power," but you don't lack control over when you conserve your power.

Indeed. The mechanism itself is quite evocative, but contextually and flavorwise it's rather off the target.

[Seclora]

I still disagree with that sentiment.

Seconded. Psychic Die has the best feel for a 5e Psionics System I've seen, and better reflects the more modern, cinematic style of psychic powers seen in media like Stranger Things, or X-Men. Power Points were fine in 3.5's mechanics heavy, +2 from each of ten spells system, but 'this die gets smaller if you roll well' is more appropriate for 5e's 'roll twice and take one result' system.

[Zevox]

Indeed. The mechanism itself is quite evocative, but contextually and flavorwise it's rather off the target.
Sure, but that's precisely the reason it shouldn't be used for Psionics. It would make a good mechanic for something akin to Wild Magic, being unpredictable and yielding sometimes strange results (a low roll having a benefit and a high roll coming with a penalty is completely contrary to how things normally work everywhere else, after all), but is totally out of place as a central mechanic of Psionics.

[Arkhios]

Sure, but that's precisely the reason it shouldn't be used for Psionics. It would make a good mechanic for something akin to Wild Magic, being unpredictable and yielding sometimes strange results (a low roll having a benefit and a high roll coming with a penalty is completely contrary to how things normally work everywhere else, after all), but is totally out of place as a central mechanic of Psionics.

I.... didn't say that it should be the centerpiece mechanism for Psionics, did I?

[Zevox]

I.... didn't say that it should be the centerpiece mechanism for Psionics, did I?
You did not, no - that's just what they've currently set it up to be, and so what I felt needs addressing. If we're agreeing there completely, cool, all good. I had thought that perhaps we'd differ there since you seemed to be in agreement with another poster who has a more positive opinion of the psi dice, but I'd still have said much the same thing either way.

[Arkhios]

You did not, no - that's just what they've currently set it up to be, and so what I felt needs addressing. If we're agreeing there completely, cool, all good. I had thought that perhaps we'd differ there since you seemed to be in agreement with another poster who has a more positive opinion of the psi dice, but I'd still have said much the same thing either way.

I agree it shouldn't be used for psionics, but the mechanism itself (if you strip it off of its psionics flavor) is quite fun. It could work with something else. Psionics, in my opinion, is something that requires immense mental discipline and control over your thoughts. Not something that ebbs and flows erratically.

[Kane0]

The die is a neat mechanic and is worth refining, but it's current implementation doesn't fit psionics beyond maybe the wilder with its randomness, nor can it hold up the system singlehandedly.

[Segev]

I’ve said it before, but I think the idea is for this dpsi to be a core representing psionics as a wild and hard to control force. And then use mechanics that bring it under control for more focused classes.

[Justin Sane]

I’ve said it before, but I think the idea is for this dpsi to be a core representing psionics as a wild and hard to control force. And then use mechanics that bring it under control for more focused classes.

I can see that working. All other psionics have to deal with this wild, barely controllable thing, but the Psion? He's the one with the perfect control, rolling multiple dpsi and picking the one he wants.

[Chaosmancer]

I like the psi die, I like the ebb and flow of it, and I especially like that rolling low increases the die size. This is the first mechanic is 5e to make rolling a 1 suck less.

And, while it could be a wild magic thing if we took it back to the beginning of the game, it isn't. Can't be because we've already seen a few wild magic classes and unless they are rewriting the wild magic sorcerer (the most iconic wild magic class) then the psi die can't become a key feature of wild magic.

With a flavor adjustment though, they work for psionics. And I agree with Justin Sane, we could even use the mechanic in such a way that the Psion is more in control than the knight or soul knife. IT could very easily work and I hope the mechanic makes it to print.

[Zevox]

I agree it shouldn't be used for psionics, but the mechanism itself (if you strip it off of its psionics flavor) is quite fun. It could work with something else. Psionics, in my opinion, is something that requires immense mental discipline and control over your thoughts. Not something that ebbs and flows erratically.
Yep, we are in agreement on all of that then. :smallsmile:


I’ve said it before, but I think the idea is for this dpsi to be a core representing psionics as a wild and hard to control force. And then use mechanics that bring it under control for more focused classes.
And if that is their intent, then it is very much one that I wish to discourage, as that completely changes the flavor of Psionics from what I like about it. Capturing that flavor is the most important part of adding Psionics, IMO. It's not just the Psion itself that should be a disciplined master of their mind, it's anyone with Psionics besides perhaps specifically the Wilder (or a new equivalent). I don't see a "Psi Knight" with wild and uncontrollable Psionics as being the same thing as a disciplined Psychic Warrior in full control of their abilities, any more than I'd see a class based on rough-and-tumble, barroom brawling-style unarmed combat as the same thing as a Monk.

[Kane0]

Yep, we are in agreement on all of that then. :smallsmile:


And if that is their intent, then it is very much one that I wish to discourage, as that completely changes the flavor of Psionics from what I like about it. Capturing that flavor is the most important part of adding Psionics, IMO. It's not just the Psion itself that should be a disciplined master of their mind, it's anyone with Psionics besides perhaps specifically the Wilder (or a new equivalent). I don't see a "Psi Knight" with wild and uncontrollable Psionics as being the same thing as a disciplined Psychic Warrior in full control of their abilities, any more than I'd see a class based on rough-and-tumble, barroom brawling-style unarmed combat as the same thing as a Monk.

Agreed, and i've already stated as such in my survey.

[Segev]

I suppose we just disagree, then. I don't mind people who aren't dedicated masters of the mind, but rather have it as a talent that helps them with a different class, being more akin to wilders than psions. In fact, I kind-of appreciate it; why is the Wilder the only representative of the naturally-talented but untrained (or only self-trained) psychic? Why is EVERY class, and even people with the Wild Talent feat, a perfectly controlled master of psionic energies, except this one class?

I'm not really complaining about how PF and 3.5 did it; I like them. But if they're changing things up for 5e, I don't mind the thematic shift to psychic/psionic power being in general this hard-to-control, pulsating, wild power, and being the rare class that actually can tame it actually be something special, rather than it be a weird disability superpower to be unable to control it.

[rlc]

honestly, I don't mind they cut the onomancer wizard, I just wish they made it a bard subclass instead. I'm hoping when they say they'll explore those themes in other ways, they mean they'll still make it possible to play a truenamer. While it's not something I would play, the concept does feel missing.

Also, while the phantom rogue has some interesting abilities, I feel like flavor-wise they should have made it more of a "phantom thief" that specializes in teleportation, invisibility and etherealness

I played an onomancer in avernus and it was fun, in a quirky type of way. I used extract name like two or three times and it made for some interesting moments, and the fact that I knew bane and bless caught the cleric off guard.

[MaxieZeus]

How does this count as the "Archivist" at all? This subclass feels garbage. The Archivist was really cool. one of the few ways to actually weaponize your Knowledge checks and use them in battle and could access all the Divine Spells, meaning you could mix and match cute Domain-specific spells and even access Druid Spells if you wanted.

Why not, for the 2nd level feature, instead of half-cost on all wizard spells. You instead pay normal for wizard spells, but also have the ability to learn ANY one spell as one of your Level-Up Spells from any spell list. And it has to be of the second-maximum spell-list. And you get 1 Cantrip of your choice from any class. but only once at 2nd level. not every level.

And sure, keep the ability to create a new Tomb whenever you lose it. But since that's such a basic and flavour-oriented effect. what about You can pick 1 Knowledge Intelligence Skill (History, Arcane, Religion, or Nature) you are proficient in and gain Expertise in it. And maybe get a another Knowledge Expertise at 5th, 10th, and 15th level or something.

And then at 6th level, instead of this stupid Spell Scroll effect, which basically just gives you an extra 1st or 2nd spell slot. You could get access to the Archivist's best feature. the ability to use Knowledge Checks in battle. Maybe, as a Bonus action, you can target 1 enemy within 60 feet of you and roll a Knowledge Check related to the target's type.
Nature - Beast, Plant, Monstrosity
Arcane - Elemental, Dragon, ooze, Abberation
History - Humanoid, Construct, Giant,
Religion - Fiend, Divine, Fey, Undead,

DC is 10 + the target's number of Hit Dice. You and 3 of your allies all gain +2 to Attack and Damage Rolls if you succeed. and the Higher you rolled, the more bonuses you get. Such as learning the target's vulnerabilities, immunities, proficiencies, even abilities. You can only do this once per short rest.

You also have the ability at 6th Level to, whenever you roll an Intelligence check of any kind, you can spend a Spell Slot to give yourself a bonus to the Knowledge check equal to the spell slot spent this way. But you have to do it BEFORE you roll. and you can only spend 1 spell slot per roll.

At 10th Level, sure, you can keep the Pact of the Chain style effect. Having the ability to seek out more knowledge where you can is definitely flavouful of the archetype.

the 14th ability is also fine. just, I'm totally ok with this Living Spellbook thing. it's just, give it the stuff that made it feel like an Archivist in the first place.

[Zevox]

I suppose we just disagree, then. I don't mind people who aren't dedicated masters of the mind, but rather have it as a talent that helps them with a different class, being more akin to wilders than psions. In fact, I kind-of appreciate it; why is the Wilder the only representative of the naturally-talented but untrained (or only self-trained) psychic? Why is EVERY class, and even people with the Wild Talent feat, a perfectly controlled master of psionic energies, except this one class?
Presumably for the same reason the Wild Magic Sorcerer is the only such class among spellcasters. If I were to guess, that'd be because players generally want their characters to be in control of their cool powers, so classes that are built around the concept of not being in control of them are very much the exception, not the rule.

And hey, if they want to add more classes like that, be my guest, that's fine, and could be fun. Just don't try to tell me that they're the 5E version of something I liked that was nothing like that before.


I'm not really complaining about how PF and 3.5 did it; I like them. But if they're changing things up for 5e, I don't mind the thematic shift to psychic/psionic power being in general this hard-to-control, pulsating, wild power, and being the rare class that actually can tame it actually be something special, rather than it be a weird disability superpower to be unable to control it.
My argument, personally, is that it seems obvious that if they're looking to do a 5E Psionics, at least part of the reason for that is surely because fans of it from prior editions have been asking for a 5E version of it. They've already decided against doing a version that's closer to the mechanics from prior editions, the Mystic, which is understandable to at least some extent. But if they're going to go for a very different mechanical direction, I'd argue that at the bare minimum they need to preserve the flavor and overall style of the classes - otherwise, what's left for those of us who were looking for 5E versions of those things?

[Segev]

My argument, personally, is that it seems obvious that if they're looking to do a 5E Psionics, at least part of the reason for that is surely because fans of it from prior editions have been asking for a 5E version of it. They've already decided against doing a version that's closer to the mechanics from prior editions, the Mystic, which is understandable to at least some extent. But if they're going to go for a very different mechanical direction, I'd argue that at the bare minimum they need to preserve the flavor and overall style of the classes - otherwise, what's left for those of us who were looking for 5E versions of those things?

I tend to agree: they need to keep the feel.

For whatever reason, the die, despite being a radically different approach, doesn't break the "feel" for me the way, say, 4e making everybody into martial adepts did.

[Zevox]

I tend to agree: they need to keep the feel.

For whatever reason, the die, despite being a radically different approach, doesn't break the "feel" for me the way, say, 4e making everybody into martial adepts did.
I can't speak to the 4E comparison, since I never really looked into the mechanics of that edition (I lost interest as soon as I heard some of the things they were doing to the Forgotten Realms, which was my favorite setting at the time). But for me, the Psi Dice does break that feel, for the reasons we've already been discussing. I can see it for the Wilder, or a similar "Wild Magic" type of concept, but not for Psionics in general.

[Garfunion]

Personally I like the psi die because it’s different and fresh. We don’t need another point buy system. If you want to create a psionic class that is truly focused in the craft, they simply need to provide the class with additional ways for them to recharge the die.

Sometimes you can push your mind to far and it breaks. That is what the psi die represents to me. No matter how in control you are with your psionic power, you are forcefully changing and using the magic around you in the most unnatural way. The chance of you blooding out your nose is high.

[heavyfuel]

So, guess I'm in the minority for thinking the Phantom is strictly inferior to the Revived in every single way...

The Revived had a much cooler fluff. It wasn't trying to be super edgy like the Phantom. It was just a chill guy who remembered his past lives.

Mechanically, Bolts from the Grave were almost strictly superior to the new Wails. No uses per rest, and allowed you to ready an action for double SA.

Audience with Death was super flavorful ability that actually allowed a non-caster access to something usually unique to the Divination school.

The Tokens are cool, I guess.

Also, the Genie's Limited Wish is sooo OP. It's frankly ridiculously strong for a lv 14 ability.

[Evaar]

How does this count as the "Archivist" at all? This subclass feels garbage. The Archivist was really cool. one of the few ways to actually weaponize your Knowledge checks and use them in battle and could access all the Divine Spells, meaning you could mix and match cute Domain-specific spells and even access Druid Spells if you wanted.

I'm not sure what you're talking about, but it's not the Archivist they're talking about. They're referencing the previous Artificer subclass released through Unearthed Arcana, which did not make it to publication. It did not have access to Cleric spells.

[Chaosmancer]

Personally I like the psi die because it’s different and fresh. We don’t need another point buy system. If you want to create a psionic class that is truly focused in the craft, they simply need to provide the class with additional ways for them to recharge the die.

Sometimes you can push your mind to far and it breaks. That is what the psi die represents to me. No matter how in control you are with your psionic power, you are forcefully changing and using the magic around you in the most unnatural way. The chance of you blooding out your nose is high.

This is something I've been thinking as well. Even the greatest "my mind is a weapon that I wield" characters tend to show that it is an effort to remain in control, because the mind is an unruly thing.

And, if they ended up doing a psion with the Psi die and had a mechanic like "when you roll your psi die for any reason, roll it three times and take the result you want" then it would have that feel of them manipulating an ability that is by it's nature chaotic and unruly, but that you have master over.

[Zevox]

Personally I like the psi die because it’s different and fresh.
Being different isn't a virtue in and of itself, in my view. There needs to be a reason that what's different about it is a positive thing, and I see none here, just the negatives of the radically different flavor from what I'm looking for.

[Garfunion]

Being different isn't a virtue in and of itself, in my view. There needs to be a reason that what's different about it is a positive thing, and I see none here, just the negatives of the radically different flavor from what I'm looking for.
Everyone has their own opinion. But here’s a question for you. How would you create a psionic system that isn’t your run-of-the-mill point by system?

[Zevox]

Everyone has their own opinion. But here’s a question for you. How would you create a psionic system that isn’t your run-of-the-mill point by system?
Personally, I wouldn't. I'd take the Mystic, change the name to Psion, make various balance changes to it, drop some of the subclasses (Immortal and Soulknife to be Fighter and Rogue subclasses, Wu Jen because it has nothing to do with Psionics), and make that the basis of 5e Psionics.

But I'm open to them doing something else instead - I just insist that it at least fit the flavor of what Psionics is. Thus I was fine with their previous passes at Psychic Warrior and Soulknife, but am very opposed to the "Psionic" Wizard and Sorcerer subclasses, and don't like the Psi Dice mechanic.

[animewatcha]

Once thing I wonder is how a champion feature with do with the double scimitar - appropriate feat which the name I can't remember - Wild talent set to dex ( psionic die to Initiative and damage roll ) and tower of iron will. Fighting style being interception and either GWM or Mariner.

[MaxieZeus]

I think the Mystic had potential, but its number 1 problem was just how broken and bull**** its signiture ability was. Intelligence is the lowest on average stat in the game. The Majority of monsters you fight in the game are mindless or beastial in nature, Wild Animals like Owlbears. Stupid bandits and Goblins. Maybe some basic guards with a 12 in Intelligence. but a large number of enemies with 14 or higher Intelligence? very rare and requires an entire campaign specifically tailored around it.

Not to mention, the overall damage output of the signature attack is better than the Paladin's since they have the range to avoid attacks while also pelting enemies with unblockable attacks.

IMO, the signature attack of the Mystic/Psion, should have been something like a Force-Push. a Breath Weapon that is contested by their Strength OR Intelligence save, whichever is higher. Either the body being too strong to push away, or their mind being too strong to influence. But make the force come out in a cone so that you have some flexibility in how you use it.

I think the point system works. and does a good job to blend the Psionics with the Monk, since the two have been married to each other since AD&D.

[Segev]

Monk and psion were only connected by more than a PrC option in 4e.

[HPisBS]

Monk and psion were only connected by more than a PrC option in 4e.

Very few of us know anything about 4e. It's not the most persuasive of references.


Anyway
The psi die seems like something of a mixed bag. There is something to be said for it being a new, totally unique mechanic. Rolling max or min being both good and bad is kinda cool. The feel of being an unpredictable power can also be fine... but I think it should have more reliability for players to enjoy it very much.

If they move forward with this psi die idea in the way that Segev imagines, then they'd need to include some fluff in every subclass that uses it about how it's an untrained or barely trained talent whose power fluctuates erratically.

- AND, I wholeheartedly believe that even the wildest of psychic archetypes need to have at least one fully at-will power they can always rely on. Whether that means always being able to roll a d4 for it, or just separating it from the psi die altogether, you need to be able to do something with your subclass at all times. (Otherwise, you could wind up using your subclass twice, and then being reduced to just the base class for the rest of the day, and that's just lame.)

Edit:

... IMO, the signature attack of the Mystic/Psion, should have been something like a Force-Push. a Breath Weapon that is contested by their Strength OR Intelligence save, whichever is higher. Either the body being too strong to push away, or their mind being too strong to influence. But make the force come out in a cone so that you have some flexibility in how you use it.

I think the point system works. and does a good job to blend the Psionics with the Monk, since the two have been married to each other since AD&D.

I fully agree with the bolded part. Telekinesis and telepathy are the most iconic psychic powers, and should thus be the psion's specialty. Meanwhile, a Psion's whose subclass is extra telekinesis-focused might be able to turn a normally single-target push into a cone AoE, while a Psion's telepathy-focused archetype might be able to disguise his telepathic messages as the target's own thoughts - his own internal monologue.


Psi Point- based powers would certainly be a cleaner system than the psi die. That much seems clear, at least.

[Quoz]

Probably a relatively minor thing overall, but I've been looking for efficient ways to get spike growth on a warlock for an upcoming character and here it's just added to the spell list. Very potent in the early game when combined with repelling blast, and only gets better as you get multiple attacks. A lot of other very nice features as well. Resistance to bludgeoning damage (not just from nonmagic weapons) is really useful and should come up often. No size limits that I could see on what you can bring into or carry with your vessel, so while harder to access than a bag of holding the capacity is very impressive. You could carry a boat in there if you needed to - though familiar airlines sounds more fun.

[Segev]

Very few of us know anything about 4e. It's not the most persuasive of references.

I know very little about it as well. Apparently autocorrupt on my phone mangled what I wrote, though, as what I was trying to say was more to the effect of (and I am waxing more prosaic here than before): "Before 4e, the closest psions and monks came to being linked was one PrC."

It is my understanding that this "Monks are psionic"/"Monks should have been psionic in 5e" stuff all comes from 4e, where that was the default. I know of no other source, save a PrC that let you hybridize monks and psions in 3e (and which, if used as precedent, means that wizards are also psionic, which would be grossly undesirable to me), which links monks and psionics.

That was my intended point, and I apologize for either my overtired posting or my phone auto"correcting" my words into that nonsensical gibberish.

[HPisBS]

Afraid not.

Though I can't speak for anyone else, my view that monks seem relatively similar to psionics stems primarily from all the psionic-like features that core 5e monks get. There's also the general fluff and feel of monks, chakra, chi, etc, but it's primarily from the base features.

- Stillness of Mind (shrug off mental influence)
- Tongue of the Sun and Moon ("touch the ki of other minds so that you understand all spoken languages")
- Diamond Soul (gain all mental saves, + Con)
- Empty Body (astral projection - literally your mind leaving your body for a while)

Monks are essentially about the mastery of one's own body and mind (more body than mind, but still). Psions are essentially about mastery of one's own mind. The similarities, both in the mechanics and the fluff, are right out there in the open for anyone who's willing to see them.

[sayaijin]

So, guess I'm in the minority for thinking the Phantom is strictly inferior to the Revived in every single way...

The Revived had a much cooler fluff. It wasn't trying to be super edgy like the Phantom. It was just a chill guy who remembered his past lives.

Mechanically, Bolts from the Grave were almost strictly superior to the new Wails. No uses per rest, and allowed you to ready an action for double SA.

Audience with Death was super flavorful ability that actually allowed a non-caster access to something usually unique to the Divination school.

The Tokens are cool, I guess.


I've worked out the math, and it's actually fairly balanced with other UA's if the class can start creating tokens at level 3, but the tokens are consumed to do the wails from the grave and the floating proficiency. Then the class becomes all about a trinket economy - knowing when to give up your advantage on death and con saves to get the extra half SA damage.

Bolts is always going to be stronger, but it was probably too strong at level 3.

[Millstone85]

It is my understanding that this "Monks are psionic"/"Monks should have been psionic in 5e" stuff all comes from 4e, where that was the default.
Though I can't speak for anyone else, my view that monks seem relatively similar to psionics stems primarily from all the psionic-like features that core 5e monks get.4e was my first edition, so I can't claim that I am not influenced by it putting the monk under the psionic power source. But the 5e monk features that HPisBS listed, those do present ki as touching both the body and the mind.

I have actually come to regret my initial dislike of "the mystic" as a name for a dedicated psionic class. It sounds easier to put alongside the monk.

[Mr Adventurer]

I still think that "psionics" should be a collection of optional subclasses that apply changes to normal spellcasting e.g. always remove non-costly material components in favour of a "display" element that 3e had. Sorcerous Origin, Soulknife (Rogue: tweaked Arcane Trickster), and Psychic Warrior (Fighter: tweaked Eldritch Knight) are all that's really needed IMO. Possibly with an even more optional sidebar on converting other casting classes to psionic magic.

However, I also think it's clear that what psionics means in a game is wildly varied across different people, what their experiences, influences, preferences, and expectations are. So I wouldn't expect much agreement with my position - it's only my own.

[Segev]

Afraid not.

Though I can't speak for anyone else, my view that monks seem relatively similar to psionics stems primarily from all the psionic-like features that core 5e monks get. There's also the general fluff and feel of monks, chakra, chi, etc, but it's primarily from the base features.

- Stillness of Mind (shrug off mental influence)
- Tongue of the Sun and Moon ("touch the ki of other minds so that you understand all spoken languages")
- Diamond Soul (gain all mental saves, + Con)
- Empty Body (astral projection - literally your mind leaving your body for a while)

Monks are essentially about the mastery of one's own body and mind (more body than mind, but still). Psions are essentially about mastery of one's own mind. The similarities, both in the mechanics and the fluff, are right out there in the open for anyone who's willing to see them.

See, none of those feel "psionic" to me, so...I guess I just have to disagree with you. On the internet. :smalleek:

[Joe the Rat]

Part of my motivation on the parallel is efficiency of systems. Ki is an existing point resource, with inner strength and discipline (or harmony) vibes, that could easily adapt to other crazy not-spellcasting woojum powers.

(I also have no issues with introducing other classes using Superiority Dice, and am still waiting for another Pact Magic group, but...)

The funky psi die is the new mechanic du jour. I appreciate adding mechanical distinctiveness to a new system, though I do have reservations about the random nature as a key aspect of psionics.

[Segev]

Part of my motivation on the parallel is efficiency of systems. Ki is an existing point resource, with inner strength and discipline (or harmony) vibes, that could easily adapt to other crazy not-spellcasting woojum powers. Maybe, but spell slots, by that logic, are already in place as something that can adapt to other "mental prowess" woojum powers, as well.


The funky psi die is the new mechanic du jour. I appreciate adding mechanical distinctiveness to a new system, though I do have reservations about the random nature as a key aspect of psionics.

I, too, appreciate the mechanical distinctiveness; I think having psionics have its own is important. I do hope that the random nature is something that is moderated in the psion class, itself, but I don't mind the random nature being the new flavor for psionics in general.

[HPisBS]

See, none of those feel "psionic" to me, so...I guess I just have to disagree with you. On the internet. :smalleek:

Ok. So, if Mental defenses, interacting directly with the speakers' Minds to understand them, and sending your Mind on a journey without its body don't feel psychic to you, then what would?

[Mr Adventurer]

Ok. So, if Mental defenses, overcoming the language barrier by interacting directly with the speaker's Mind, and sending your Mind on a journey without its body don't feel psychic to you, then what would?

You're substituting the word "mind" a whole lot there. I'm with Segev on this one.

[HPisBS]

You're substituting the word "mind" a whole lot there. I'm with Segev on this one.

Is your Astral self not your mind? Are charmed and frightened not mental effects (despite the feature's name being Stillness of Mind)?

If not, then what are they?

[Mr Adventurer]

Is your Astral self not your mind? Are charmed and frightened not mental effects (despite the feature's name being Stillness of Mind)?

If not, then what are they?

The DMG says that travellers to the Astral Plane travel as "disembodied souls", so, no, it's not just your mind.

Charmed and frightened are magical effects. There doesn't appear to be a "mindless" categorisation of creature as there was in 3.5e; from a natural language standpoint, being frightened can absolutely be a physical reaction, as can being charmed.

Despite all that, you'll notice you've had to significantly narrow down the features you're talking about; the presence of the word "mind" doesn't at all indicate psionic power, on its own.

[jaappleton]

I want to take a moment here and talk about the Genie Patron.

The Genie Patron might be the perfect Warlock patron.

Not in the sense that its perfect for every Warlock. But it is, IMO, borderline perfectly designed.

You have the base spell list. Solid list. And for each elemental genie type, an expanded list as appropriate for them.

Well, lets take a moment here and analyze that.

WHY did they do it that way? It covers so much, and it does it incredibly concisely.

Lets pause here for just a moment and move to the other features. Additional damage on a hit, of the corresponding elemental type. Who doesn't want that with their Warlock, free bonus damage? Yes, please.

Move on to the 6th level feature. Free flight, multiple times per day? Again, who is going to say that's a bad feature? Its a solid addition, and thematic. But its thematic not just for the genie types.

Level 10? Everyone can get a short rest, in a safe haven, after only 10 minutes. With additional healing on their hit dice. Again, solid. Especially for a Warlock that always wants a short rest. The Monk, Fighter, Cleric, Druid, etc are all going to love you for it, too.

Lv14, Limited Wish. An ace up your sleeve. Any spell, 6th level or lower, no cost.

Now, think of this:

It can be expanded even further. With some simple homebrew, essentially just picking 5 thematically appropriate spells, you can expand this Patron to cover essentially any damage type.

"I want to be a Psychic Warlock but I don't love GOO". "I really want to be a Radiant focused Warlock but I'm not really digging Celestial". Necrotic? Force? Acid?

It is so well written, I'm legitimately amazed.

Take just a moment to consider all the UA content over the years. Yes, some was a bit... much... coughLOREWIZARDcough.... And some was underwhelming, and even was still underwhelming when published (Looking at you, Arcane Archer).

This is so well done, and easily adaptable, its truly wonderful. Its incredibly concise in its design while also very broad. And that is very hard to do.

[HPisBS]

The DMG says that travellers to the Astral Plane travel as "disembodied souls", so, no, it's not just your mind.

Ok. Maybe it isn't; I'm not that up on DnD's lore for astral stuff. If astral projection is said to be not just your mind, but your soul, then I guess that one doesn't count as much as one might assume.

... Then again, the very first entry for "psychic" on Dictionary.com is "of or relating to the human soul or mind; mental (opposed to physical)"....


Charmed and frightened are magical effects. There doesn't appear to be a "mindless" categorisation of creature as there was in 3.5e; from a natural language standpoint, being frightened can absolutely be a physical reaction, as can being charmed.

The "mindless" thing isn't really relevant, but it seems to be (partially) represented by immunity to charmed and frightened. Most constructs seem to share that, other than duodrones, etc.

And I mean... they can be physical reactions insofar as the brain is actually a physical thing, and various chemicals stimulate the brain in those ways. But that isn't so relevant for the purpose of discussing psychic-like effects in a fantasy setting. Psychics are all about the the mind as a mysterious, enigmatic, ¿spiritual? force. Actual biology doesn't usually have much to do with it (unless it involves injuries or something, I guess).


you've had to significantly narrow down the features you're talking about

Huh? What had I narrowed down? You mean the language thing? If so, then no; I just don't like being that repetitive. I figured "you touch the ki of other minds" was explicit enough not to require further repetition. lol


Edit

I want to take a moment here and talk about the Genie Patron.
...
This is so well done, and easily adaptable, its truly wonderful. Its incredibly concise in its design while also very broad. And that is very hard to do.

Yep. If nothing else from this UA moves forward, it should definitely be this.

- Also, thanks for directing us back on topic. lol

[Millstone85]

Is your Astral self not your mind?
The DMG says that travellers to the Astral Plane travel as "disembodied souls", so, no, it's not just your mind.That one is tough. The same sentence also introduces the Astral as "the realm of thought and dream", which is best illustrated on the next page: "A psychic wind is made up of lost memories, forgotten ideas, minor musings, and subconscious fears that went astray in the Astral Plane and conglomerated into this powerful force". So, personally, I would expect astral projection to be predominantly psychic in nature, even if the soul is taken along for the ride.


Are charmed and frightened not mental effects (despite the feature's name being Stillness of Mind)?
Charmed and frightened are magical effects.Actually, they are conditions that may or may not be imposed by magic.

Though it is probably rare for a DM to tell a player that their character simply doesn't find the courage to take another step toward the enemy. No, there has got to be foul magic at play. :smallamused:


from a natural language standpoint, being frightened can absolutely be a physical reaction, as can being charmed.
And I mean... they can be physical reactions insofar as the brain is actually a physical thing, and various chemicals stimulate the brain in those ways. But that isn't so relevant for the purpose of discussing psychic-like effects in a fantasy setting. Psychics are all about the the mind as a mysterious, enigmatic, ¿spiritual? force. Actual biology doesn't usually have much to do with it (unless it involves injuries or something, I guess).But if you do accept the brain as the organ of the mind within the body, as illithids would certainly agree, then of course ki would flow through it.


the presence of the word "mind" doesn't at all indicate psionic power, on its own.I agree that it isn't enough for something to be mind-related. Psychic doesn't automatically mean psionic.

Now, I think the introduction of the UA got its fundamental points right:

"Psionic powers arise from the user, rather than from an external source."
"The powers associated with psi in D&D are like those that appear in other medias that feature psionic characters: telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, and the like."

There was a third point, about using both spells and not-spells, but I would say that all spellcasters already do that in this edition.

Anyhow, I like the idea of a monk/mystic connection because, in addition to the aforementioned psychic features, ki is what IMO best captures the concept of an internal source of magic. No, not sorcery, at least not the way the PHB describes arcane and divine magic. Or, at the very least, ki is an internal source that is present in everyone, not just in those of a particular heritage.

Edit:
Also, thanks for directing us back on topic. lol Sorry for undoing this rerailing. Also, I agree, the Genie is an awesome patron.

[Kane0]

I stand by the lamp and resting thing being better suited to being a pact boon with invocations, taking a leaf from pact of the talisman.

[Pex]

I want to take a moment here and talk about the Genie Patron.

The Genie Patron might be the perfect Warlock patron.

Not in the sense that its perfect for every Warlock. But it is, IMO, borderline perfectly designed.

You have the base spell list. Solid list. And for each elemental genie type, an expanded list as appropriate for them.

Well, lets take a moment here and analyze that.

WHY did they do it that way? It covers so much, and it does it incredibly concisely.

Lets pause here for just a moment and move to the other features. Additional damage on a hit, of the corresponding elemental type. Who doesn't want that with their Warlock, free bonus damage? Yes, please.

Move on to the 6th level feature. Free flight, multiple times per day? Again, who is going to say that's a bad feature? Its a solid addition, and thematic. But its thematic not just for the genie types.

Level 10? Everyone can get a short rest, in a safe haven, after only 10 minutes. With additional healing on their hit dice. Again, solid. Especially for a Warlock that always wants a short rest. The Monk, Fighter, Cleric, Druid, etc are all going to love you for it, too.

Lv14, Limited Wish. An ace up your sleeve. Any spell, 6th level or lower, no cost.

Now, think of this:

It can be expanded even further. With some simple homebrew, essentially just picking 5 thematically appropriate spells, you can expand this Patron to cover essentially any damage type.

"I want to be a Psychic Warlock but I don't love GOO". "I really want to be a Radiant focused Warlock but I'm not really digging Celestial". Necrotic? Force? Acid?

It is so well written, I'm legitimately amazed.

Take just a moment to consider all the UA content over the years. Yes, some was a bit... much... coughLOREWIZARDcough.... And some was underwhelming, and even was still underwhelming when published (Looking at you, Arcane Archer).

This is so well done, and easily adaptable, its truly wonderful. Its incredibly concise in its design while also very broad. And that is very hard to do.

Genie is fast becoming my favorite Warlock Patron. I'm itching to play one. What has escaped notice is it provides you a mini-bag of holding. You're allowed to bring stuff with you into your chamber and leave it there. You can only access it again after a long rest, but it's still a nice perk. You can store important things you don't need to access often or spontaneously.

[GorogIrongut]

Genie is fast becoming my favorite Warlock Patron. I'm itching to play one. What has escaped notice is it provides you a mini-bag of holding. You're allowed to bring stuff with you into your chamber and leave it there. You can only access it again after a long rest, but it's still a nice perk. You can store important things you don't need to access often or spontaneously.

More importantly, you could store all your bags of holding in there without fear of your bags going boom.

[Joe the Rat]

Genie is fast becoming my favorite Warlock Patron. I'm itching to play one. What has escaped notice is it provides you a mini-bag of holding. You're allowed to bring stuff with you into your chamber and leave it there. You can only access it again after a long rest, but it's still a nice perk. You can store important things you don't need to access often or spontaneously.

Very good catch on that. That's one heck of a camp store.

[Dork_Forge]

Genie is fast becoming my favorite Warlock Patron. I'm itching to play one. What has escaped notice is it provides you a mini-bag of holding. You're allowed to bring stuff with you into your chamber and leave it there. You can only access it again after a long rest, but it's still a nice perk. You can store important things you don't need to access often or spontaneously.

Seems like a good place to store potions, have your vessel carried by a party member to sneak you into somewhere, pop out when needed under the effects of whatever potion you have available and with your arms full of weapons to hand to your compatriots once they're past the checkpoints.