Optimizing the Sub-Opitmal: Drow Racial SLAs

[Nifft]

At first level, a Drow Cleric takes two flaws to purchase a total of 3 feats:
- Magic in the Blood (FR:Player's Guide)
- Highborn Drow (FR:Races)
- Master of Shadow (Drow of the Underdark)

How many times can she use each spell-like ability?


Depending on the order of operations:

A) Magic in the Blood improves every SLA (from race and the Highborn feat) from 1/day -> 3/day, then Master of Shadow adds another +1/day for the basic racial SLAs. Your totals are 4/day darkness, faerie fire, dancing lights; 3/day levitation, detect magic, detect good.

B) Magic in the Blood looks at your instantaneous current daily limit, and sees that Master of Shadow improved your basic racial SLAs to 2/day; Magic in the Blood ignores those SLAs and only increases to 3/day the SLAs from Highborn Drow. Your totals are 2/day darkness, faerie fire, dancing lights; 3/day levitation, detect magic, detect good.


Now for her next level, she takes Drow Paragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/racialParagonClasses.htm#drowParagon) 1. This gives her

Improved Spell-Like Abilities
At 1st level, a drow paragon gains one additional daily use of each of her innate spell-like abilities.

I think this improves all of her SLAs (both base racials and from Highborn Drow); but again, the order of operations implies either 5/day (basic racial SLAs); 4/day (highborn drow SLAs) -- or -- 3/day (basic); 2/day (highborn).

It would be a bit of a dysfunction for a class ability to reduce your functionality, so I personally favor the former, but I'm interested in hearing arguments.


She finishes out Drow Paragon, and then takes 2 levels of either Cleric or a full-caster PrC (perhaps Paragonistic Apostle). Now she's level 6 with level 5 casting, and she takes the feat Lolth's Blessing (from FR:Races or the FR:Shadowdale module). This gives her more innate SLAs (clairaudience/clairvoyance, discern lies, dispel magic, and suggestion), each 1/day.

How do her per-day increases interact with these new SLAs?

I think that at least one or the other of the Drow Paragon 1 increase or Magic in the Blood would apply, so at worst she'd get 2/day (clairaudience/clairvoyance, discern lies, dispel magic, and suggestion); but other than a hostile DM imposing an unfavorable order of operations, I think they'd both apply additively for a total of 4/day (clairaudience/clairvoyance, discern lies, dispel magic, and suggestion).


Arguments for one interpretation or the other are welcome.

[gorfnab]

Don’t forget to add a Ring of Drow Blood from Drow of the Underdark.

Also here is a Drow E6 SLA build that may provide some more ideas (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5111)

[Nifft]

Don’t forget to add a Ring of Drow Blood from Drow of the Underdark.

Also here is a Drow E6 SLA build that may provide some more ideas (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=5111)

The ring is a good idea -- no gear on this build yet, so there's certainly room.

Any insight into the questions I'm asking in this thread?

[JustIgnoreMe]

Just off the top of my head: I think it shouldn’t matter which order you take feats in. Every character with the same feats should have the same benefits, all other things being equal. So whichever order they are applied in, it should be the same no matter what order they are taken in.

I would rule in the way that’s most positive to the character. Add, then multiply.

[daremetoidareyo]

https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-491135.html

I played with this a few years ago. Maybe I covered it?

[Nifft]

Just off the top of my head: I think it shouldn’t matter which order you take feats in. Every character with the same feats should have the same benefits, all other things being equal. So whichever order they are applied in, it should be the same no matter what order they are taken in.

I would rule in the way that’s most positive to the character. Add, then multiply.

Order-of-operations questions don't rely on order-of-acquisition.

I'm looking for rules which might point one way or the other -- as the DM, I could rule as I wanted, but I'm curious what the game rules say about this sort of thing before I make that decision.




https://forums.giantitp.com/archive/index.php/t-491135.html

I played with this a few years ago. Maybe I covered it?

It's cool, but you lean on some iffy interpretations, like...
... getting extra magic missile per-day SLA from this feat:


Master of Shadow [General] (Drow of the Underdark, p.51)
You gain extra uses of your drow powers of light and darkness.
Prerequisite: Drow
Benefit: You gain one extra daily use of each of your drow spell-like abilities (dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire).
In addition, you gain a +2 bonus to your caster level with these spell-like abilities.
The benefits of the feat are explicitly listed, and you're claiming a benefit which isn't listed.

It looks like you're arguing that general should trump specific.


Also, ouch, the archive format is unkind to tables.

[Emperor Tippy]

It goes:

Racial adjustments -> Class adjustments -> Feats in the order taken -> Feats taken at the same level are calculated in whatever order is most advantageous to the character -> Items.

That is for additions/subtractions, if anything multiples (i.e. says twice as many daily uses) then the multiplication is done last (generally speaking).

So in this case it would be Magic in the Blood (that it is a regional, first level only, feat would also indicate it should come earlier) first.

That changes if your first level is Drow Paragon, because levels are done before feats and Drow Paragon 1 provides an additional use of your drow SLA's and thus Magic in the Blood won't do anything to those.

There is an argument to be made that all things gained as part of level up (feats, skills, class features) should be calculated together in whatever order best suits the character but that isn't actually RAW (which does express that leveling up is a step by step process that goes Attribute Scores -> Class level/HD -> Feats -> Skills).

[Nifft]

It goes:

Racial adjustments -> Class adjustments -> Feats in the order taken -> Feats taken at the same level are calculated in whatever order is most advantageous to the character -> Items.

That is for additions/subtractions, if anything multiples (i.e. says twice as many daily uses) then the multiplication is done last (generally speaking). Could you cite where that's laid out?


So in this case it would be Magic in the Blood (that it is a regional, first level only, feat would also indicate it should come earlier) first.

That changes if your first level is Drow Paragon, because levels are done before feats and Drow Paragon 1 provides an additional use of your drow SLA's and thus Magic in the Blood won't do anything to those.
Drow Paragon 1 is listed in this example as the 2nd character level.

Improved SLAs is a feature of Drow Paragon 1, which was taken after Magic in the Blood, but is a class feature.

Would SLA usage drop from 3/day at level 1 (via Magic in the Blood) to 2/day at level 2 (via Drow Paragon Improved SLAs)? It looks like that's what your operations chart says, though maybe the source material has more nuance in it?

[Emperor Tippy]

Could you cite where that's laid out?
PHB page 58 under the Level Advancement header. It's amended and/or clarified somewhere else that you can take a Prestige Class's prerequisite feat(s) (but not skill points) at the same time as you gain the first level in the PrC so long as you aren't using a bonus feat granted by the PrC.

It's Choose Class -> BAB is adjusted -> Base Saves are adjusted -> Ability scores are adjusted -> Hit Points are adjusted -> Skill Points -> Feats granted outside of the Bonus Feat class feature (so this would include Flaw granted feats) -> Spells are granted -> Class Features are granted/adjusted.

It's somewhere, but I can't remember where, that feats granted at the same time are applied in whatever order is most advantageous to the character. Feats aren't, as a general rule, dynamic though and so a feat taken at level 1 won't recalculate based on decisions made at, say, level 3.


Drow Paragon 1 is listed in this example as the 2nd character level.

Improved SLAs is a feature of Drow Paragon 1, which was taken after Magic in the Blood, but is a class feature.

Would SLA usage drop from 3/day at level 1 (via Magic in the Blood) to 2/day at level 2 (via Drow Paragon Improved SLAs)? It looks like that's what your operations chart says, though maybe the source material has more nuance in it?

No, Drow Paragon wouldn't reduce daily SLA's. Magic in the Blood is taken at first level and it checks at the time you take it. Think of it as an instantaneous spell.

The operation chart is for level up, not for recalculating when you gain additional levels in future.

[daremetoidareyo]

Could you cite where that's laid out?

It's in the phb near the beginning of a chapter. Let me see if I can find it. My gut says p.51, I'll edit in the results in a few minutes.

Answer:
Page 58 of phb. Near the end of a chapter. Memory is wierd.

Page 87 has stuff about feats and prereqs

[Nifft]

PHB page 58 under the Level Advancement header. It's amended and/or clarified somewhere else that you can take a Prestige Class's prerequisite feat(s) (but not skill points) at the same time as you gain the first level in the PrC so long as you aren't using a bonus feat granted by the PrC.

It's Choose Class -> BAB is adjusted -> Base Saves are adjusted -> Ability scores are adjusted -> Hit Points are adjusted -> Skill Points -> Feats granted outside of the Bonus Feat class feature (so this would include Flaw granted feats) -> Spells are granted -> Class Features are granted/adjusted.

It's somewhere, but I can't remember where, that feats granted at the same time are applied in whatever order is most advantageous to the character. Feats aren't, as a general rule, dynamic though and so a feat taken at level 1 won't recalculate based on decisions made at, say, level 3. Cool, I thought that section was just about adjudicating level-up choices.

I'll take another look, thanks.



No, Drow Paragon wouldn't reduce daily SLA's. Magic in the Blood is taken at first level and it checks at the time you take it. Think of it as an instantaneous spell.

The operation chart is for level up, not for recalculating when you gain additional levels in future.

That's kinda bad though.

The SLAs granted by Lolth's Blessing are a lot better than the racial SLAs, and I'd generally prefer Magic in the Blood to apply to both sets.

If a level 1 feat can't modify something gained at level 6 because it's an "instantaneous spell", then that also breaks a big chunk of daremetoidareyo's magic missile build.

[daremetoidareyo]

Cool, I thought that section was just about adjudicating level-up choices.

I'll take another look, thanks.




That's kinda bad though.

The SLAs granted by Lolth's Blessing are a lot better than the racial SLAs, and I'd generally prefer Magic in the Blood to apply to both sets.

If a level 1 feat can't modify something gained at level 6 because it's an "instantaneous spell", then that also breaks a big chunk of daremetoidareyo's magic missile build.

Arguably, You could lose the prereqs for the feat temporarily, thereby losing the use of the feat, and then it reapplies when you regain the prereqs.

Also, that build isn't great, it was just a collage glued together with arguments about how it should work.

[Emperor Tippy]

That's kinda bad though.

The SLAs granted by Lolth's Blessing are a lot better than the racial SLAs, and I'd generally prefer Magic in the Blood to apply to both sets.

If a level 1 feat can't modify something gained at level 6 because it's an "instantaneous spell", then that also breaks a big chunk of daremetoidareyo's magic missile build.

It really depends on the specifics of the feat(s)/abilities in question how they interact. A level 1 feat can absolutely modify something gained at level 6, depending upon wording of both things and what is being done.

[Nifft]

It really depends on the specifics of the feat(s)/abilities in question how they interact. A level 1 feat can absolutely modify something gained at level 6, depending upon wording of both things and what is being done.

Yeah, that's what I'd been expecting, not at all an "instantaneous spell".

Magic in the Blood looks like it applies to any 1/day spell-like ability, and in that case it increases the uses to 3/day.

Drow Paragon Improved SLAs looks like it applies to any "innate" spell-like ability, which seems to include feat-based and racial SLAs.

Per your idea about order-of-operations, the Drow Paragon class ability would be applied before the Magic in the Blood feat, but that would be disadvantageous to the PC so if that's true then I'd like a more clear rule indication that it needs to be evaluated in that way. My preference is to favor the PC.

[Emperor Tippy]

Yeah, that's what I'd been expecting, not at all an "instantaneous spell".

Magic in the Blood looks like it applies to any 1/day spell-like ability, and in that case it increases the uses to 3/day.

Drow Paragon Improved SLAs looks like it applies to any "innate" spell-like ability, which seems to include feat-based and racial SLAs.

Per your idea about order-of-operations, the Drow Paragon class ability would be applied before the Magic in the Blood feat, but that would be disadvantageous to the PC so if that's true then I'd like a more clear rule indication that it needs to be evaluated in that way. My preference is to favor the PC.

No, Magic in the Blood applies to racial SLA's. If you don't gain an SLA because of your race than Magic in the Blood does nothing for it.

When Magic in the Blood is gained at first level, it increases those racial SLA's that are 1/day to 3/day.

Drow Paragon 1 increases the daily use of all innate SLA's by 1. So Magic in the Blood + Drow Paragon 1 would result in 4 daily uses of the Drow racial SLA's. That would be true at whatever level Drow Paragon is taken given that the +1 daily use is a class feature and those are calculated after feats.

There is no circumstance in which Drow Paragon would apply before Magic in the Blood.

The real question is what gets counted as an "innate" SLA. Racial SLA's are clearly innate, but beyond that the term is basically undefined under the rules. A Warlocks Invocations could easily be justified as innate, for example.

[Nifft]

No, Magic in the Blood applies to racial SLA's. If you don't gain an SLA because of your race than Magic in the Blood does nothing for it.

When Magic in the Blood is gained at first level, it increases those racial SLA's that are 1/day to 3/day.

Drow Paragon 1 increases the daily use of all innate SLA's by 1. So Magic in the Blood + Drow Paragon 1 would result in 4 daily uses of the Drow racial SLA's. That would be true at whatever level Drow Paragon is taken given that the +1 daily use is a class feature and those are calculated after feats.

There is no circumstance in which Drow Paragon would apply before Magic in the Blood.

The real question is what gets counted as an "innate" SLA. Racial SLA's are clearly innate, but beyond that the term is basically undefined under the rules. A Warlocks Invocations could easily be justified as innate, for example.Ah, yeah, you're right about the racial SLA limitation.

I'm going to contend that all SLAs provided by race-specific feats or features are "racial SLAs".

That means the SLAs from the feats Highborn Drow and Lolth's Blessing ought to also be improved by Magic in the Blood.


Non-innate SLAs might include those grated from magic items, or from mutable class features like what Master of Masks grants... which is unfortunate, since improving Master of Masks to 3/day for all of those SLAs wouldn't break anything.


The case where Improved SLAs comes before Magic in the Blood is this:


It goes:

Racial adjustments -> Class adjustments -> Feats in the order taken -> Feats taken at the same level are calculated in whatever order is most advantageous to the character -> Items.
It looks like you're saying class abilities apply before feats, and Improved SLAs is a class ability.


I think both would be applied to the level 6 feat Lolth's Blessing (which would be taken after both the class feature and the regional feat), and there ought to be a rule about which is applied first.

I'm asking if anything about this order-of-operations can be found in the rules, and so far I don't see much.

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm asking if anything about this order-of-operations can be found in the rules, and so far I don't see much.

Page 58 of the phb. Class features are last, after feats.

Exception: feats on page 80 *something* specifically allow feats to be taken concurrently with prereqs.

[Nifft]

Page 58 of the phb. Class features are last, after feats.

Exception: feats on page 80 *something* specifically allow feats to be taken concurrently with prereqs.

Ah, nice.

That's clear, and it's in favor of the PC's power, which I like.

Thank you, and also thanks Tippy!

[ShurikVch]

Blend Into Shadows (Drow of the Underdark): swift action to use HiPS within 10 ft of magical darkness, extra use of Darkness
Dazzling Fire (Drow of the Underdark): dazzle target of Faerie Fire, extra use of Faerie Fire
Deceptive Illumination (Drow of the Underdark): use Dancing Lights to create a Silent Image, extra use of Dancing Lights
Fade Into Darkness (Drow of the Underdark): use Darkness to get +5 to Hide checks, extra use of Darkness
Fascinating Illumination (Drow of the Underdark): use Dancing Lights to cast Hypnotic Pattern, extra use of Dancing Lights
Gift Of The Spider Queen (Drow of the Underdark): additional effects for SLAs as an immediate action (turn off non-magical lights, Mirror Image, blinds/dazzles victims and makes you invisible)
Improved Levitation (Underdark): control duration of Levitate SLA
Intensify Darkness (Drow of the Underdark): cast Deeper Darkness as a full-round action, extra use of Darkness
Instinctive Darkness (Drow of the Underdark): use Darkness as an immediate action, extra use of Darkness
Radiant Flicker (Drow of the Underdark): use Faerie Fire to give concealment against melee attacks for one round, extra use of Faerie Fire

[Yogibear41]

Once toyed around with the idea of making a half-fiend lesser drow with magic in the blood, and the drow paragon level to get 4 daily uses out of each of the Half-Fiend SLAS. Use variant half-fiend from that web-article to customize your choices (within the SLAs that make sense of course) even more.