Eberron setting question: Why does the Gnomish language use the Dwarven script?

[HappyDaze]

Eberron: Rising from the Last War gives us the 5e version of Eberron. Based on the history of Eberron, why does the Gnomish Language use Dwarven script? The gnomes of Zilargo were civilized long before the barbaric dwarves of the setting and geographically, the lands of the two peoples are rather far apart with no significant shared history. In Eberron, it would make more sense if the Gnomish language used the Common (or even Goblin) script if they didn't come up with a unique Gnomish script on their own.

Insights? Opinions?

[Arkhios]

Eberron: Rising from the Last War gives us the 5e version of Eberron. Based on the history of Eberron, why does the Gnomish Language use Dwarven script? The gnomes of Zilargo were civilized long before the barbaric dwarves of the setting and geographically, the lands of the two peoples are rather far apart with no significant shared history. In Eberron, it would make more sense if the Gnomish language used the Common (or even Goblin) script if they didn't come up with a unique Gnomish script on their own.

Insights? Opinions?

Maybe the modern Gnomes simply find Dwarven Script appealing? Just because Zilargo has been civilized for a longer period of time it doesn't mean the modern dwarves had to be any less sophisticated than the gnomes. The age of a civilization is not necessarily directly proportional with how sophisticated they are.

[Ninja_Prawn]

If you're playing in Eberron, I'd say it makes sense for the Gnome language to use the Common script. The guidance in the PHB is clearly based on Forgotten Realms lore, wherein the 'Dwarvish' script (Dethek) is the oldest written script still in use. Primordial and Giant (the oldest spoken languages) are both written in Dethek for that reason.

[Arkhios]

If you're playing in Eberron, I'd say it makes sense for the Gnome language to use the Common script. The guidance in the PHB is clearly based on Forgotten Realms lore, wherein the 'Dwarvish' script (Dethek) is the oldest written script still in use. Primordial and Giant (the oldest spoken languages) are both written in Dethek for that reason.

This is a good point. However, knowing how "weird" gnomes tend to be in most settings (and Eberron is no different in that) I wouldn't be surprised if they originally used Common script but later diverted to using runic dethek instead, because it's so different from common alphabet, and in on itself suffices well for delivering secret messages (which is the quintessential business for Mark of Scribing).

[HappyDaze]

If you're playing in Eberron, I'd say it makes sense for the Gnome language to use the Common script. The guidance in the PHB is clearly based on Forgotten Realms lore, wherein the 'Dwarvish' script (Dethek) is the oldest written script still in use. Primordial and Giant (the oldest spoken languages) are both written in Dethek for that reason.

I was going from the table in the 5e Eberron book where Gnomish still lists the Dwarven script.

It's not the only language-related oddity: PC Orcs (and, presumably Half-Orcs) still speak Orc even though the book says that they should speak Goblin (Orc being a rarely spoken language used only by isolated communities). This is made all the more odd because the PC Orc entry has Eberron-specific text in it that tells me that these are not just setting-neutral Orcs. Oddly, the House Tharashk racial option does follow the guidance and speaks Goblin (but not Orc).

[HappyDaze]

Maybe the modern Gnomes simply find Dwarven Script appealing? Just because Zilargo has been civilized for a longer period of time it doesn't mean the modern dwarves had to be any less sophisticated than the gnomes. The age of a civilization is not necessarily directly proportional with how sophisticated they are.

I'm assuming the Gnomish language adopted a written script long ago. The "modern" dwarves of Eberron are just now (in the last few hundred years) crawling out of barbarism.

[HappyDaze]

This is a good point. However, knowing how "weird" gnomes tend to be in most settings (and Eberron is no different in that) I wouldn't be surprised if they originally used Common script but later diverted to using runic dethek instead, because it's so different from common alphabet, and in on itself suffices well for delivering secret messages (which is the quintessential business for Mark of Scribing).

If that was their intent, it makes me wonder why the gnomes wouldn't have created their own script(s).

[Arkhios]

If that was their intent, it makes me wonder why the gnomes wouldn't have created their own script(s).

Beats me. I'd say that's up to you to decide. As is whether the idea I proposed makes sense or not. Not trying to say I was right and all others were wrong.

[HappyDaze]

Beats me. I'd say that's up to you to decide. As is whether the idea I proposed makes sense or not. Not trying to say I was right and all others were wrong.

If I stick with Dwarven script, I may have had the pre-Mror Holds dwarven clans have aided the gnomish partisan "jungle rats" in what becomes Zilargo against the Dhakaani Empire. The dwarven holds were under pressure from the goblinoids, and the gnomes were the "enemy of their enemy" or such. Maybe these dwarves were "advanced barbarians" like the Klingons of Star Trek...

This would have been long before Common was ever spoken (or written) in Khorvaire.

[Arkhios]

If I stick with Dwarven script, I may have had the pre-Mror Holds dwarven clans have aided the gnomish partisan "jungle rats" in what becomes Zilargo against the Dhakaani Empire. The dwarven holds were under pressure from the goblinoids, and the gnomes were the "enemy of their enemy" or such. Maybe these dwarves were "advanced barbarians" like the Klingons of Star Trek...

This would have been long before Common was ever spoken (or written) in Khorvaire.

Also, depends how you define a barbarian. Are they like hunter-gatherers from siberia, or like vikings who are known to have their own cities throughout scandinavia and beyond, or more like nomadic germanic tribes or scottish highlanders who were mostly illiterate farmers. For example Vikings and germanic tribes had a runic script they shared with one another (Futhark) even though they are often pictured as barbarians by the "more civilized" cultures. Illiteracy isn't always a part of being barbaric, it's merely a matter of whether they know how to speak, read and/or write a language or not.

[JackPhoenix]

If I stick with Dwarven script, I may have had the pre-Mror Holds dwarven clans have aided the gnomish partisan "jungle rats" in what becomes Zilargo against the Dhakaani Empire. The dwarven holds were under pressure from the goblinoids, and the gnomes were the "enemy of their enemy" or such. Maybe these dwarves were "advanced barbarians" like the Klingons of Star Trek...

This would have been long before Common was ever spoken (or written) in Khorvaire.

The article on Mror dwarves from old WotC site's archives explain where the barbarism came from:


Much of the early history of the Mror dwarves is based on fragments passed down through oral tradition and scattered across the clans. It is generally accepted that the dwarves first appeared on Khorvaire approximately twelve thousand years ago, but beyond this, stories differ. Some tales say that the dwarves came from a land of ice and snow, which most modern scholars deem to be the Frostfell -- although to date, those few, brave souls who have explored this frigid land have found no evidence of a dwarven civilization. Others claim that the dwarves rose up from the earth itself, that Kol Korran and Onatar forged them from the stone of the mountains or that Eberron created them to battle the aberrations of Khyber. Every clan and every dwarf has his own opinion, and most are ready to fight with anyone who challenges it.

Regardless of their origin, it is clear that the dwarves were a mighty power long before the present day. Dhakaani dirges speak of battles with the "stonefolk of the mountains," and the Dhakaani were repelled from the Ironroot Mountains by a unified, disciplined dwarvish nation. Even today, scholars observe that Mror battle tactics are ideally suited to counter the traditional techniques used by the Dhakaani and their Darguul descendents.

The dwarves themselves have many tales from this age of glory, though it is difficult to separate fact from myth. Tales speak of Stone Kings and Dragon Keepers, of runesmiths forging mighty blades in the depths. This age came to an end in the reign of Lord Kordran Mror. A number of warriors and heroes had stirred up unrest in the deep realm, and Mror banished twelve of the leaders plus their followers to the surface of the mountains. The depths were sealed off with magical wards and a clan of wardens sent to the lands above to ensure that the seals remained until the others "proved themselves to be worthy of the kingdom below."

The dwarf lords took many steps to prove their worth. It is said that the great stone face of Lord Mror was produced at this time, though this is itself a point of some debate. Korranberg sages claim that the dwarves simply didn't have the skills to produce such an artifact, and argue that they must have sculpted down a larger image. For evidence, they point to obscure references to "the face of Eberron," and suggest that "Dragon Keeper" may have referred to a draconic monument dating back to the dawn of time.

In any case, when none of these efforts produced results, the banishe dwarves fell to fighting among themselve. The culture slowly devolved, and while the surface dwarves clung to the secrets of iron, they embraced the grim joy of battle. For thousands of years the clans fought one another, each seeking to prove its ultimate superiority and earn the keys to the kingdom of stone.

When humans first came to Khorvaire, they ignored the feuding clans of the Ironroot Mountains. The dwarves were too busy fighting one another to take an interest in the world beyond the mountains, and the ancient battles continued unabated until Karrn cast his eyes toward the region. The young prince guessed at the wealth that might be hidden in the mountains, and he wanted his share. With his father's permission, he led an army to subjugate the "mountain barbarians." Though (or perhaps because) they had been fighting for millennia, the dwarves were ill prepared to face an unfamiliar foe. Together the clans could have easily expelled the invader, but Karrn played on their feuds to divide and conquer the clans. Within a decade, the clan lords had bent the knee to the prince of Karrnath.

When humans first encountered them, dwarves were fallen remnant of once mighty nation, locked in constant strife... not unlike the goblinoids themselves.

[HappyDaze]

The article on Mror dwarves from old WotC site's archives explain where the barbarism came from:



When humans first encountered them, dwarves were fallen remnant of once mighty nation, locked in constant strife... not unlike the goblinoids themselves.

That Dwarves were focused on oral traditions rather than written history makes the use of Dwarven script for other languages even more odd.

[JackPhoenix]

That Dwarves were focused on oral traditions rather than written history makes the use of Dwarven script for other languages even more odd.

Funnily enough, gnomes don't even have their own language on the list in 3.5 Eberron, though they do have it in PHB. And didn't have their own language at all in 4e.

[Samayu]

Maybe the Dwarves got it from the same place that the Gnomes did. And the Dwarves are just the ones that spread it around and made it so commonly understood that people named it for them. And the Gnomes are mad that the Dwarves always get the credit for inventing it.

[JackPhoenix]

No, I figured it out... it's a ruse the Trust created: if nobody knows gnomes have their own script (and language), nobody will try to learn it, and the gnomes will keep their secrets. Obviously, since 3.5 days, word got out the gnomes have their own language, but they've still managed to keep their script secret. Wait, what's that gnome doing heraaaaaaargh....

Yup, the gnomes definitely derive their language from the dwarves, and nothing suspicious is going on. Suggesting otherwise is riddiculous, and leads to accidents. Stay safe, there's no need to discuss this matter further. Or else...

[Kobold_paladin?]

Eberron: Rising from the Last War gives us the 5e version of Eberron. Based on the history of Eberron, why does the Gnomish Language use Dwarven script? The gnomes of Zilargo were civilized long before the barbaric dwarves of the setting and geographically, the lands of the two peoples are rather far apart with no significant shared history. In Eberron, it would make more sense if the Gnomish language used the Common (or even Goblin) script if they didn't come up with a unique Gnomish script on their own.

Insights? Opinions?
If you poke around in other fantasy books and whatnot creatures like gnomes and dwarves are generally classified under one type: the dwarow. Then if you look at the PHB it says gnomes are rarer than dwarves so I think if you through all that together you can get a pretty decent idea why.
Hope this was helpful -k_pal?

[Osuniev]

I would assume the Gnomes actually invented the script, the Dwarves copied it, but some human scholars at some point called it "Dwarven runes", just like in our world we call the numbers we use "arabic numerals" whilst they were developped by the indians.