Barbarian race question

[Theodoxus]

I'm looking to build a mitigation barbarian for front-line tanking.

Three builds offer similar core needs, but I'm not sure which way to go. I'm also not committed to a particular archetypal path yet either (though either Bear or Zealot are the biggest contenders).

Using Point Buy, to obtain optimal Str, Dex and Con, the three choices would be:

Variant Human, Tough feat. +1 Str and Con.

Pros: Highest hit points at 17.
Cons: No darkvision (meh), no other racial abilities that support the build.

Hill Dwarf, +1 Wis, +2 Con

Pros: Second highest hit points at 16. Darkvision (meh), Poison resistance (circumstantial, and would overlap with Bear, but not a dealbreaker), highest wisdom (good for perception and survival).
Cons: Lowest strength at 15 (ick), no other racial abilities that support the build.

Half-Orc, +1 Con, +2 Str

Pros: Darkvision (meh), Relentless Endurance (decent), Savage Attacks (good, but makes me want to build a crit fisher for maximum efficiency), 12 wisdom (good for perception and survival).
Cons: Lowest hit points at 15.

So, from a purely mitigation aspect, the human comes out on top, though Relentless Endurance would give him an extra round to get a final hit in... But the hit point gap would only get larger every level, causing RE to be relied on more often... I guess that's good for using all your abilities?

Is a 15 Strength for 4 levels too detrimental? I need some opinions or options I'm not looking at. BTW, only PhB is allowed per the DM, so no Goliath or goblinoid races, unfortunately.

[Christew]

No real wrong answers here. The difference of a couple hit points per level will be pretty negligible as you level. You will still be getting at least d12+3 regardless of race, which will likely give you highest HP in most parties.

If you want max damage mitigation, I would go Bear Totem (for super resistance while raging) and Half-Orc (for Relentless Endurance, Savage Attack, and STR). Relentless Endurance is only once per long rest, but it can be a huge boost to your effective HP. For example:
Human (17 HP) vs Half-Orc (15 HP)
- Round one: Hit for 10 damage (7 HP vs 5 HP)
- Round two: Hit for 10 damage (0 HP/Dying vs 1 HP)
- Round three: Hit for 10 damage (Dying with Save loss vs 0 HP/Dying)

Even though the Human started with more HP, it only took two hits (20 HP) to drop him, while the Half-Orc required three hits (30 HP) to drop. This is higher effective HP and, with an extra round to act, higher damage output. The best defense is to kill your enemy as quickly as possible, so higher STR and Savage Attack will help your Half-Orc drop enemies faster and therefore take less damage. This is more valuable than 2 additional HP (which will quickly become meaningless when you are resisting for half and enemies are hitting for more and more damage per hit as you level).

[elyktsorb]

Ghostwise halfling is the best so you can scream at people in their head while silently running at them.

[Amechra]

If you want to do front-line tanking, I'd look at either Ancestral Guardian (Ancestral Protectors and Spirit Shield are really good for a tank) or Storm Herald (The Tundra Storm Aura hands out a surprisingly solid amount of temporary hit-points once you take into account that you can refresh it once per round) before I looked at Zealot. All the hit-points and resistance in the world are useless if no-one's attacking you, and the way you make people attack you is by being annoying.

I kinda agree with going for good old Variant Human (it's very rarely a bad choice), but I'd go for Sentinel, Shield Master, or Tavern Brawler instead of Tough. Sentinel and Tavern Brawler make you sticky (Sentinel makes it hard for people to run away, and raging Barbarians are great grapplers), while Shield Master makes you annoying to deal with (you have advantage on your Shoves while raging, and you'll effectively have two good saves thanks to how much the feat boosts your Dexterity saves).

[Mith]

For the general Barbarian (and you'll have to clear with your DM), we used Half Orc Endurance overlap with the mid level Barbarian feature as one free fails per day, which is really nice.

[da newt]

I also like shield master over TOUGH (although the SM dex save bonus from the second feat bullet is almost useless, the third bullet is handy and shoving folks prone is great), but I'd also recommend PAM as a starting feat. The extra attack and extra OpAt trigger are great. In my experience, the extra OpAt trigger occurs much more often than Sentinel.

Zealot is a nice damage bump (especially at lower tiers), but as mentioned not the best TANK choice, and if your DM is serious about PHB only - then Zealot and many other subclasses are out.

[GlenSmash!]

Too bad Goliath is off the table. Stone's Endurance is a great defensive option that gives a Barbarian a little short rest utility.

If looking for a damage sponge the Battlerager's ability to generate their Constitution Modifier's worth THP every round they use Reckless Attack while in a Rage is pretty great.

Hill Dwarf would be the good fit here. 15, 14, 17, 8, 11, 8 stats to start with and you can bump Strength to 16 ans Con to 18 at 4. At level 6 You would be getting 4 THP every round you Reckless Attack Which would be effectively doubled by resistance from Rage against the most common damage types. You could easily max con for more HP and THP which is a nice little synergy there. Keeping strength at 16 for a while is not so bad for a Barbarian as Reckless Attack will make sure you are still hitting enough. Then you could work on Strength or pick up Resilient Wisdom to round out that Wisdom score (and because failing a wisdom save is often awful for a Barbarian)

[Waazraath]

No real wrong answers here. The difference of a couple hit points per level will be pretty negligible as you level. You will still be getting at least d12+3 regardless of race, which will likely give you highest HP in most parties.

If you want max damage mitigation, I would go Bear Totem (for super resistance while raging) and Half-Orc (for Relentless Endurance, Savage Attack, and STR). Relentless Endurance is only once per long rest, but it can be a huge boost to your effective HP. For example:
Human (17 HP) vs Half-Orc (15 HP)
- Round one: Hit for 10 damage (7 HP vs 5 HP)
- Round two: Hit for 10 damage (0 HP/Dying vs 1 HP)
- Round three: Hit for 10 damage (Dying with Save loss vs 0 HP/Dying)

Even though the Human started with more HP, it only took two hits (20 HP) to drop him, while the Half-Orc required three hits (30 HP) to drop. This is higher effective HP and, with an extra round to act, higher damage output. The best defense is to kill your enemy as quickly as possible, so higher STR and Savage Attack will help your Half-Orc drop enemies faster and therefore take less damage. This is more valuable than 2 additional HP (which will quickly become meaningless when you are resisting for half and enemies are hitting for more and more damage per hit as you level).

+1 to this. If Eberron was on the table, I'd say Beasthide shifter, start the day with 4+1d6 temporary hp (and then take a short rest), and enjoy +1 ac for a little extra tankyness. But without it, Half-Orc serves your needs best I think.

[Man_Over_Game]

I'd actually recommend the Gnome, interestingly enough.

Gnomes get Advantage on any mental saving throws. Your weaknesses are more likely to be spells than straight hits, and Gnome really helps round the Barbarian out to have no weaknesses.

As far as which class to go, keep in mind that the Zealot is a Xanathar's class so you wouldn't be able to pick it. For frontline tanking, I'd recommend the Bear Totem Barbarian anyway. It's one of the most boring, but it does what it does well.

Gnomish Bear Totem Barbarian that comes equipped with Speak With Animals? Pretty dang useful, and thematic enough that you won't feel like another generic, optimized V.Human.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I say go with either Goliath or Lizardfolk in Xanathar's.

Goliath gets Str +2, Con +1, athletics proficiency, a few other benefits, and a once per short rest reaction that reduces damage taken from an attack by 1d12+Con mod.

Lizardfolk gets Con +2, Wis +1, a 1d6+Str bite attack that can be used if your hands are occupied (shield and grapple), two bonus skill proficiencies, an amazing artisan ability, and a once per short rest bonus action bite attack that if it hits gives you your Con bonus in temporary HP. Sadly their natural armor won't stack with your unarmored defense, but it does set a minimum AC of 13 + Dex + Shield.

[CheddarChampion]

Have you considered a mountain dwarf?
You could start with 17/14/17/8/10/8 and get to 18/14/18/8/10/8 at level 4.

[Christew]

I say go with either Goliath or Lizardfolk in Xanathar's.

Goliath gets Str +2, Con +1, athletics proficiency, a few other benefits, and a once per short rest reaction that reduces damage taken from an attack by 1d12+Con mod.

Lizardfolk gets Con +2, Wis +1, a 1d6+Str bite attack that can be used if your hands are occupied (shield and grapple), two bonus skill proficiencies, an amazing artisan ability, and a once per short rest bonus action bite attack that if it hits gives you your Con bonus in temporary HP. Sadly their natural armor won't stack with your unarmored defense, but it does set a minimum AC of 13 + Dex + Shield.
OP stipulated PHB races only.

[LudicSavant]

I'm looking to build a mitigation barbarian for front-line tanking.

Three builds offer similar core needs, but I'm not sure which way to go. I'm also not committed to a particular archetypal path yet either (though either Bear or Zealot are the biggest contenders).

Using Point Buy, to obtain optimal Str, Dex and Con, the three choices would be:

Variant Human, Tough feat. +1 Str and Con.

Pros: Highest hit points at 17.
Cons: No darkvision (meh), no other racial abilities that support the build.

Hill Dwarf, +1 Wis, +2 Con

Pros: Second highest hit points at 16. Darkvision (meh), Poison resistance (circumstantial, and would overlap with Bear, but not a dealbreaker), highest wisdom (good for perception and survival).
Cons: Lowest strength at 15 (ick), no other racial abilities that support the build.

Half-Orc, +1 Con, +2 Str

Pros: Darkvision (meh), Relentless Endurance (decent), Savage Attacks (good, but makes me want to build a crit fisher for maximum efficiency), 12 wisdom (good for perception and survival).
Cons: Lowest hit points at 15.

So, from a purely mitigation aspect, the human comes out on top, though Relentless Endurance would give him an extra round to get a final hit in... But the hit point gap would only get larger every level, causing RE to be relied on more often... I guess that's good for using all your abilities?

Is a 15 Strength for 4 levels too detrimental? I need some opinions or options I'm not looking at. BTW, only PhB is allowed per the DM, so no Goliath or goblinoid races, unfortunately.

Of these 3 choices, Hill Dwarf is the worst IMHO.

Oh sure, you get +1 hp per level, but that's not actually going to change your survivability by much (it's gonna be less than 10%, and other racial abilities can help as much or more).

In exchange, you
don't get a bonus to your main attack stat (important for actually locking things down and tanking effectively as opposed to ending up as an easily ignored "turtle." Also, remember that better offense and control means less damage taken, too).
get a penalty to your movement speed (Barbarians who are stuck out of position even occasionally lose a lot for it; you're not like a Paladin where you can decide to just buff or something comparably useful if you're stuck out of position for a bit).

[KorvinStarmast]

Pros: Highest hit points at 17.
Cons: No darkvision (meh), no other racial abilities that support the build.

Hill Dwarf, +1 Wis, +2 Con

Pros: Second highest hit points at 16. Darkvision (meh), Poison resistance (circumstantial, and would overlap with Bear, but not a dealbreaker), highest wisdom (good for perception and survival).
Cons: Lowest strength at 15 (ick), no other racial abilities that support the build.
[B] Mountain Dwarf. Why did you not choose that?
+2 Con +2 Str Resistance to Poison. (Which at low levels is not an uncommon damage type)
Youi can dump Int and bump Wis to 12
S 16 D 14 C 16 Int 8 Wis 12 Ch 10. or wis 13 and ch 10 for a later game Wis Res if you'd like)
Or, you can go S 17 D 14 C 17 Ind 8 Wis 10 Ch 8 and then at first ASI have 18 STR and 18 CON. Your Wis Saves are the place to worry later, though.

Half Orc makes a fine barbarian.

[Theodoxus]

Mountain Dwarf. Why did you not choose that?

Bonus to hit points was a higher consideration, for mitigation.

Regarding the race vs subclasses, the DM specified the races were PhB only, because that's what his world is. Other books are allowed for class options, which is why I was considering Zealot.

I like half-orc, I played a berserker when 5E first came out, and it was a lot of fun (though I did waste feats on PAM and GWM) so I could try that again, it's just that 4 out of 5 barbarians are half-orcs... it's a little played out.

To be frank, if it didn't come online at 6th level, the battlerager would be a no-brainer. My playstyle is definitely to reckless attack every chance I get, and the added THP would be a godsend... living to 6th level might be problematic though...

[CTurbo]

Why not just go for a Mountain Dwarf Battleranger then? Start 17 Str, 17 Con, and bump them to 18 at level 4.


I've played a Barb that used Reckless Attack 100% of the time and I never felt like I "needed" the Tough feat.


If Vhuman, there are probably 10 other feats I would consider starting with other than Tough, but that's just me.

[GlenSmash!]

Bonus to hit points was a higher consideration, for mitigation.
To be frank, if it didn't come online at 6th level, the battlerager would be a no-brainer. My playstyle is definitely to reckless attack every chance I get, and the added THP would be a godsend... living to 6th level might be problematic though...

That seems a bit odd to me. I have never had survivabilty problems with any Barbarians. I'd think a Battlerager with 14 dex, Spiked Armor, and a Shield would be pretty tough at any level.

[Man_Over_Game]

That seems a bit odd to me. I have never had survivabilty problems with any Barbarians. I'd think a Battlerager with 14 dex, Spiked Armor, and a Shield would be pretty tough at any level.

For some maths:

Assuming a normal 60% chance to hit the Barbarian normally, that goes up to 84% with Advantage.

That's a 40% increased chance to hit (84%/60% = 140%), or it effectively means you're taking 40% more damage.

This goes up the lower your enemy's bonus to hit is. So if a mook only had a 20% chance to hit you, that skyrockets to 36%, the equivalent of taking 80% more damage.

So Reckless Attack is a bad move against swarms, but great against bosses, which basically summarizes the difference between AC vs. Rage, or Fighters vs. Barbarians.

[LudicSavant]

For some maths:

Assuming a normal 60% chance to hit the Barbarian normally, that goes up to 84% with Advantage.

That's a 40% increased chance to hit (84%/60% = 140%), or it effectively means you're taking 40% more damage.

This goes up the lower your enemy's bonus to hit is. So if a mook only had a 20% chance to hit you, that skyrockets to 36%, the equivalent of taking 80% more damage.

So Reckless Attack is a bad move against swarms, but great against bosses

The general principle here is correct: Reckless Attack is reckless against swarms.

The damage difference is a little bit bigger than that because you raise the enemy's crit rate, too. For example, if a Bandit has a 20% chance to hit and you raise it to 36%, you'll be taking 82.5% more damage.

(Bonus math: the Reckless Barb is also taking a whopping ~1046% of the damage compared to if they had Disadvantage to be hit. More than 10 times as much damage! Basically, effective durability scales exponentially with how hard it is to hit you, and mook swarms tend to be at around the point where the slope is about to get steep)


which basically summarizes the difference between AC vs. Rage, or Fighters vs. Barbarians.

I think this part is a bit of a hasty generalization. I think AC alone doesn't really summarize a Fighter's anti-boss toolkit, which includes stuff like rerolling saves, extra ASIs, Action Surge novas, and various important subclass abilities.


That seems a bit odd to me. I have never had survivabilty problems with any Barbarians. I'd think a Battlerager with 14 dex, Spiked Armor, and a Shield would be pretty tough at any level.

It really depends on the difficulty level of the table you're at and the kind of tactics Team Monster uses.

[GlenSmash!]

Fair points MOG and LudicSavant

I've played o lot of Barbarian's to level 5+ and I guess I never considered using Reckless Attack all the time.

Tangent time.

One time our party was battling a Fire Giant who could hit me on a roll of 4 or better so giving him advantage wouldn't really have made much of a difference as he was hitting me every turn anyway, but since i had a mount I used it's speed to keep in where it would have to throw a rock at me with disadvantage. Even with disadvantage he still hit me every turn, but getting hit with one rock was better than getting hit twice by his greatsword, and every turn he threw that a rock at me was one he wasn't attacking the rest of the party. He did end up killing my mount though, so at that point I did reckless attack to try to keep his focus on me.

So I guess to me Reckless Attack is just one tool in the Barbarian's toolkit and Longbow proficiency is another, and if you want to live to be a wise old Barbarian you should know when to use one and when to use the other.