Any easier way to get decent unarmed-strike damage as a secondary attack?

[Draconi Redfir]

So long and shot of it: Eventually i hope to start a new character that is primarily an Alchemist, and mainly uses Bombs for damage. If he gets stuck in a situation where Bombs won't be viable or unavailable though, like he's forced to enter Melee combat, then i'd like to use unarmed strikes to have the character just punch through his foes like a brawler. The damage output for this doesn't need to be amazing or high, i'm essentially just looking for like, more then 1d4 damage. maybe a d8 or something.

I briefly got a chance to play him as a level 13 character. i built him with 8 levels in alchemist, 1 level in fighter (For reasons that are not important to this discussion), and 4 levels in Unchained monk. For the whole unarmed combat thing, i took the Monastic Legacy (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monastic-legacy-combat/) feat to give me some decent damage dice. I could get this with one less level if i took levels in just classic monk, but then i wouldn't get the full BAB, and lower saves.

The problem is, that while at level 13 this build is fine, trying to build up to it from levels 1-10 is going to be a chore, and i'll almost certainly be lagging behind. I'm looking for something that would at least be half-viable in the early levels. One or two multiclass levels would be fine, but i worry that three or four might be pushing it.

i hear a lot of talk on these forms of "Oh you want to play monk? Just play unarmed swordsage" or whatever on these forums, so i figure i may as well ask here.

Is there a way to get to Monastic Legacy (Requiring the Still Mind class feature) or something similar that can increase my unarmed damage without needing to take 3-4 levels in a secondary class?

Keep in mind, this unarmed punching thing is NOT my primary damage output. the character is primarily an explosives alchemist, this is just a backup weapon kind of thing. i'm looking for half-decent, not full on specialization.

For some added flexibility, i re-flavored Handwraps (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/weapons/weapon-descriptions/handwraps/) filled with special materials such as adamantine or cold iron into a sort of Brass-knuckle situation, allowing me to still deal unarmed damage and count for the monk damage, while also being able to enchant them and use special materials to bypass DR.

[meemaas]

Theres a third party feat by Dreamscarred Press called Greater Unarmed Strike that gives you a 1d8 starting at level 3 when you can take it, and improving to 1d10 at 10th.

[Psyren]

The Kirin Style feat chain eventually lets you add 2x your Int to damage. Unfortunately, that doesn't come online until 9th level, so it won't solve your 1-10 problem.

VMC Monk will give you the unarmed progression of a monk (-2) and won't delay any of your alchemist features. However, you give up 5 feats to do so, and can no longer wear armor, which could be a tough sell.

My personal advice would be to use an alchemist ability for this instead of trying to kung-fu things. Feral Mutagen for example will, in addition to the stat boosts from the mutagen itself, give you two 1d6 claw attacks and a 1d8 bite attack, that should be more than enough to let you deal with things unarmed and you can pick it up as early as level 2. You can add a tentacle or two to that for even more natural attack goodness, all while still wearing armor and even getting a natural armor bonus to further help you in melee. Pick up a Vest of Stable Mutation and you can boost your strength with it without harming your Intelligence.

[exelsisxax]

Buy a gauntlet and don't waste 4 levels and a feat to get bad unarmed damage. Unless you're vital striking, base weapon damage is relatively unimportant, and your damage is going to suck either way. So instead of throwing alchemist levels down this drain, just go alchemist. Use feral mutagen as psyren mentioned if you want something that doesn't suck, or a more melee-capable archetype like beastmorph.

Or just buy a gauntlet.

[Draconi Redfir]

My personal advice would be to use an alchemist ability for this instead of trying to kung-fu things. Feral Mutagen for example will, in addition to the stat boosts from the mutagen itself, give you two 1d6 claw attacks and a 1d8 bite attack, that should be more than enough to let you deal with things unarmed and you can pick it up as early as level 2. You can add a tentacle or two to that for even more natural attack goodness, all while still wearing armor and even getting a natural armor bonus to further help you in melee. Pick up a Vest of Stable Mutation and you can boost your strength with it without harming your Intelligence.

i kinda really... don't like mutagens though. They cost a standard action to use, and that can't be changed from what I've found. So often times you'll find yourself in combat and if you want to use a mutagen, you basically need to pass your turn unless you want to run around somewhere. If they were a move action, or had the potential to become one like a Bard's song, then sure, maybe. As it is, i don't really like "Doing nothing" as an action while the rest of my party is busy fighting monsters. It's the whole "True Strike" dilemma. why spend a whole turn fantasizing about hitting an enemy, when you can just hit an enemy?


Or just buy a gauntlet.

Gauntlets only deal 1d3 damage though, that's less then a dagger. May as well equip a feather at that rate.

Sure Gauntlet would make a good option if you're playing something that specializes in it and has a bunch of other stuff, like a rogue or something, but i'm not doing any of that.


edit: Apparently, there is a Combat style (https://aonprd.com/RangerCombatStyles.aspx) for the Ranger under "Faithful (Irori)" that could give the Monastic Legacy feat. Perhaps i could take two levels in ranger instead of 3-4 in Monk?

[Psyren]

i kinda really... don't like mutagens though. They cost a standard action to use, and that can't be changed from what I've found. So often times you'll find yourself in combat and if you want to use a mutagen, you basically need to pass your turn unless you want to run around somewhere. If they were a move action, or had the potential to become one like a Bard's song, then sure, maybe. As it is, i don't really like "Doing nothing" as an action while the rest of my party is busy fighting monsters. It's the whole "True Strike" dilemma. why spend a whole turn fantasizing about hitting an enemy, when you can just hit an enemy?

It lasts long enough that you can drink it before a fight (even as soon as you enter the dungeon) and not worry about the action cost, especially if you also have the Enduring Mutagen trait. The penalties are small at low levels, and by the time they're not, you can get the vest to ignore them.

Besides, you said this was just a backup right? Most of the time you'll be chucking bombs anyway.

[Draconi Redfir]

yeah pretty much. always kinda figured i'd just leave mutagens for like, skill checks or something, like when we need to push a heavy boulder or whatnot. Kind of impossible to tell when you will or won't enter combat, so kinda felt that drinking a mutagen would be pointless. what's the point in drinking it if you don't expect to use it? what's the point in drinking it if you currently occupied with combat? etc.

[Psyren]

Alchemists have lots of ways to tell when they'll be entering combat, not to mention whatever the rest of your party might have. If your GM isn't allowing any of those ways to work, that's an out-of-game problem.

That's not to say that you can't ever be caught by surprise, but in that case you're probably going to be down a standard action anyway. And honestly, while taking an action to break out the claws may be suboptimal, being ready to go with a weak unarmed strike isn't necessarily better.

[Firebug]

The Kirin Style feat chain eventually lets you add 2x your Int to damage. Unfortunately, that doesn't come online until 9th level, so it won't solve your 1-10 problem.
...
You can add a tentacle or two to that for even more natural attack goodness, all while still wearing armor and even getting a natural armor bonus to further help you in melee.Kirin Style is frankly terrible. It takes a swift action to turn on, another swift action to identify the target, and a 3rd swift action to get the damage bonus. So we're talking round 3 before it adds any damage and then only 1/round.
The Tentacle discovery doesn't actually give you any additional attacks so its not very good for a natural attacker build. It just gives you another option. Specifically "The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though he can use it to make a tentacle attack (1d4 damage for a Medium alchemist, 1d3 damage for a Small one) with the grab ability."

As far as the usefulness of Mutagen is... you do know you can take the Dex mutagen for +4 to Dex and +2 natural armor for effectively +2 to hit with your bombs and increases your AC by 4? That lasts for 10 minutes/level (or hour/level at 14, or 11 min/level with Enduring Mutagen (https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Enduring%20Mutagen)). Basically, pick one version and stick with it (Dex since you are a bomber). If you really need the strength bonus to move a heavy rock, use a crowbar for +2 to the check. Or an extract of Bulls Strength, or Ant Haul or whatever. It just takes an hour to remake the mutagen(once you drink it) and is not limited in uses/day so you can get almost 100% up-time (especially at 14 when it goes to hour/level). At 16 with Grand Mutagen, you are looking at +8 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Str and +6 natural armor for 16 hours.

But you take a -2 to all mental abilities scores... unless you use that Vest of Stable Mutation (https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Vest%20of%20St able%20Mutation) or Ring of Inner Fortitude (https://aonprd.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of%20Inner %20Fortitudeminor) to reduce the penalties to 0. I recommend the Ring if you have a slot free, because it also applies to Infuse Mutagen and any critters the GM throws at you. Infuse Mutagen is costly (1,000 gp, 2 int damage) but it basically means you have 100% uptime when its important.

[Psyren]

Kirin Style is frankly terrible. It takes a swift action to turn on, another swift action to identify the target, and a 3rd swift action to get the damage bonus. So we're talking round 3 before it adds any damage and then only 1/round.

Well, there's Combat Style Master to remove one of those, but I agree - by that point you're throwing good feats after bad to enable an approach that no alchemist should be using anyway.

[Draconi Redfir]

well i've been doing some thinking, and i might have something a bit more viable thanks to this discussion, even if it's not quite directly related.

earlier, i found the Ranger Combat Styles (https://aonprd.com/RangerCombatStyles.aspx), and the fact that the "Faithful (Irori)" combat style offers Monastic Legacy as a bonus feat. So what i might be able to do is take two levels in ranger to qualify for that. Ranger would also give me Favored enemy (which isn't a whole lot, but hey, bonus) but also Medium armor proficiency.

i'll level with you, the main reason i took one level in Fighter was for heavy armor proficiency. -

... ****... i only now actually read the text under Combat styles. doesn't let me wear heavy armor. dangit.

back to the drawing board then:smallsigh:

edit: Hnmm... Perhaps two levels in Slayer instead? the Slayer talent "Ranger combat style" (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/slayer/slayer-talents/paizo-slayer-talents/ranger-combat-style) just says i select a style and gain a feat from that list. SO! Possible i may be able to select Faithful (Irori), and just acquire the Monastic Legacy feat while still using heavy armor, and not loosing the feat because of it?

[Rynjin]

I think you're investing too much into what is essentially a backup weapon. Dipping out of a caster class is usually ill advised in the first place; the upside needs to be pretty huge to combat the inherent drawbacks.

Speaking as someone who's played a lot of Monks, even a Monk doesn't want an Unarmed Strike to be their main weapon if they're looking to be an optimal combatant. For a non-Monk, there's even less upside.

I think you discarded the idea of a gauntlet far too easily. Yes, it's only a d3...but that doesn't really matter. You static damage bonuses are what count most with a weapon. 1d3+5 and 1d6+5 have an average damage difference of...2 damage. This is perfectly acceptable for a PRIMARY weapon, much less a backup one.

You've also discounted the power of mutagens a bit too much as well, I think. They are a big power boost to any character (hence why they're such a common thing for Archetypes to give to martial classes) and a 10 minute/level duration is as good as most any other buff in the game. That's 10 times the duration of something like Mirror Image or Shield, widely considered great buff spells.

Even if you need to drink it in combat, the boost it gives you is hefty enough to make it worthwhile. The average Dex Mutagen is giving you +4 to AC (see: Shield), +2 to Reflex saves (double the bonus of Haste; same as Heroism), and +2 to-hit (better than Aspect of the Falcon, a spell with a tenth the duration; an item that the continuous version of used to be a MUST HAVE item for archers before it was mega-nerfed) for the price of a -1 to Will saves and Perception checks.

It is one of the most bang for your buck buffs conceivably available.

[exelsisxax]

I hope you are aware that heavy armor on a bomber alchemist is strictly very bad and contributes nothing of any value to such a build. That is effectively a dead level for a bomber. Slayer levels would be more dead levels to paper over your prior mistake, but only deepening the hole you're in (and not bypassing the armor restriction anyway)

Gauntlet: 2gp, 1 lb, provides around 80% of the function that your 4 levels of monk did while letting you keep 4 alchemist levels.

[Heavenblade]

Shielded gauntelt atyle, using three feats, will get him plenty of bwnefits -
Weapon focus - +1 attack to a 3/4 BaB class - boeing, hut good for low levels
Shielded gauntelt style - +1 AC as long as you dont make attacks this turn - useful for buffing/movement turns - also counts as imp UAS, neat for prereqs and stuff, gauntelt counts as buckler
Shielded gauntelt attack - you get with gauntelts the delayed damage of warpriest's sacred weapon. Also, you can steal/disarm 1/round for basically free.


All that at level 7, 5 if you are a half elf/start with a full BaB dip, see below.

From here you got a couple of options
1- shielded gauntelt master - now your enchanted weapon is also your enchanted shield - can save a LOT of money, especially since th other perk of this feat makes the shield bonus active all day long, regardless of what you do with your hand
2- take a dip into buckler duelist (preferrably in 1st-2nd levels) - with bonus feat and BaB bonus, you can get the entire relevant feat chain at level 2, if you go all the way in level 3 - and you got enough spare feats to invest in shield bash tactics!
3- the most feat heavy path - invest in the steal combat maneuver, if that's your gig - itll take you a lot of feats so I can't honestly recommend it, but it's here, just to be thourough

[Epic Legand]

Lets keep in mind what the OP asked for, not what we think is best. Far as I can see, unarmed strike ans superior unarmed strike are your cheapest way in. Zero reduction in bombing, Still offers D8 or D10 in HTH base damage at medium size. I am not aware of a "practiced bomber trait" but it does not seam unreasonable when compared to the same for casters. If you still want to cross class, you could go with any of the classes you mentioned ( like slayer/ranger) ....May I ask WHY you wanted heavy armor? Is it the total ac? or the look? Because the movement peneltys seam tough when compared to the short range of the bombs. Also Dex( to hit for bombs) also conflicts with heavy armor. Is POW on the table? There are some SWEET choices for a bomb focused build if POW is available.

[Firest Kathon]

You could also take the feat Close-Quarters Thrower (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/close-quarters-thrower-combat) and just continue to throw bombs when in melee, assuming you have a way to not hit yourself with the bombs (Precise Bombs discovery, Targeted Bomb Admixture extract, energy resistance, ...).

[Draconi Redfir]

Lets keep in mind what the OP asked for, not what we think is best. Far as I can see, unarmed strike ans superior unarmed strike are your cheapest way in. Zero reduction in bombing, Still offers D8 or D10 in HTH base damage at medium size. I am not aware of a "practiced bomber trait" but it does not seam unreasonable when compared to the same for casters.

you mean Greater unarmed strike (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/feats/greater-unarmed-strike-combat/) right? Superior unarmed strike (http://www.theworldofnocturne.com/dndtools/feats/tome-of-battle-the-book-of-nine-swords--88/superior-unarmed-strike--2844/index.html) looks like it's a 3.5 thing (which i guess is compatible, but seems to be worse in the short-term). Definitely seems to be what i'm going for, so think that might work actually. might be a feat tax but I've played with worse, Alchemist seems to provide some bonus feats that i would have taken anyways.


No comment on the armor thing, as i don't feel it's relevant to this particular discussion.

[Heavenblade]

Greater unarmed strike is 3rd party, also about the first thing someone recommended in the thread
so it could work if your gm is lenient with outside sources, many GMs aren't

[Draconi Redfir]

dernit, thought path of war was an official source.

might just have to wait until the next campaign starts and ask then. if not, fall back on either the slayer, monk, or gauntlet ideas then.