Shatterspike

[TheCleverGuy]

My players have just finished the Sunless Citadel, and the Paladin picked up the magic sword Shatterspike. In addition to being a +1 longsword, it has the following ability:

"If it hits an object, the hit is automatically a critical hit, and it can deal bludgeoning or slashing damage to the object (your choice). Further, damage from nonmagical sources can't harm the weapon."

Could this be used to break an enemy's weapon or shield mid-combat? If so, how would you run it--does the PC need to declare their intention to strike the item rather than the creature with his attack? What's the AC and HP of, say, a standard orc's greataxe, or any other item?

[Pex]

Shatterspike was introduced in 3E where you can sunder an opponent's weapon, i.e. break them. It was a way to encourage someone taking the Improved Sunder feat which no one liked because it meant possibly breaking magical weapons - loot, but I digress.

I don't know what page it's on, but the DMG has rules for object hardness, hit points, and AC. 5E SRD has information on it. Google 5E object hardness. You'll find a link.

[Tanarii]

I don't know what page it's on, but the DMG has rules for object hardness, hit points, and AC. 5E SRD has information on it. Google 5E object hardness. You'll find a link.following up in this:
Object AC is DMG p246. Iron/Steel is AC 19
Object HP is DMG p247. A small resilient item has 10hp.

The DMG doesn't have a Sunder combat option, but it might be possible to house rule something from Disarm.

DMG 271:
DISARM
A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.
The attacker has disadvantage on its attack roll if the target is holding the item with two or more hands. The target has advantage on its ability check if it is larger than the attacking creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller.


Quick and dirty would be to make it a 2 step check, but instead of dropping it you attack the object as if unattended against its AC. Yes that's hard, but breaking an enemy item should be harder than making them drop it. Especially given how easy it is to retrieve an item on the ground, all they have to do is use their object interaction.

Or you can just make it require a Disarm followed by an attack against the now unattended object on the ground. Taking two attacks total.

[MaxWilson]

My players have just finished the Sunless Citadel, and the Paladin picked up the magic sword Shatterspike. In addition to being a +1 longsword, it has the following ability:

"If it hits an object, the hit is automatically a critical hit, and it can deal bludgeoning or slashing damage to the object (your choice). Further, damage from nonmagical sources can't harm the weapon."

Could this be used to break an enemy's weapon or shield mid-combat? If so, how would you run it--does the PC need to declare their intention to strike the item rather than the creature with his attack? What's the AC and HP of, say, a standard orc's greataxe, or any other item?

FWIW, my general rule (following the 5E idiom) is that objects that are currently being wielded by non-incapacitated creatures do not take damage, nor do attuned items currently being worn or carried. (The logic is that the creature is able to protect the item from harm just as it protects itself, until it runs out of HP.)

Implication: Shatterspike would have to target a spare weapon or non-attuned item of clothing or equipment, like a backpack or a spell component belt pouch, but it would do so twice as efficiently as a normal weapon. Or you could do a DMG Disarm on an enemy and then attack the weapon before it can pick it up.

Based on DMG table 246-7, I'd say AC 19 and 3d6 HP is probably about right for a greataxe.

[TheCleverGuy]

Thanks, this is all very helpful. What about something like a shield? Narratively, I tend to describe weapons hitting a creature's shield (assuming they have one) when the attack roll would have hit if not the shield's +2 AC bonus. Of course, mechanically, I don't rule that normal weapons cause any damage to the shield.

But it definitely seems that a case could be made that Shatterspike is hitting an object in that scenario.

[Democratus]

Yeah. I'd say that Shatterspike can be used to destroy unattended/un-wielded items.

Defeat the bad guy, destroy his evil thingamajig.

Going down the path of destroying a sword/shield being used by another character is a slippery slope.

[Tanarii]

Thanks, this is all very helpful. What about something like a shield? Narratively, I tend to describe weapons hitting a creature's shield (assuming they have one) when the attack roll would have hit if not the shield's +2 AC bonus. Of course, mechanically, I don't rule that normal weapons cause any damage to the shield.

But it definitely seems that a case could be made that Shatterspike is hitting an object in that scenario.
Make a second attack roll against AC 19 when the shield comes into play?

Only problem is that's really fiddly. The 2ac shield coming into play I mean. I tried that in 3e, determine from bonuses how the miss/block happened, and it got real old even when it mattered.

[DrKerosene]

In 5e terms, I feel like Shatterspike is a really weak version of the Sword Of Sharpness, if you wanted to work on an “awakening” weapon arc.

A number of weapon being made of wood (at least partially) should mean a lower AC and HP for sundering. I feel like Shields should probably get close to max HP for their object category.

I’ve seen some suggestions to give (N)PCs the ability to negate a critical hit by having their shield get destroyed. Perhaps you could treat the Object HP kind of like Temp HP in that regard.

Shatterspike also makes enemies using Improvised Weapons (and Cover) a little more interesting if you can just hack away at it in 1-2 chops.

If you look at Grey Oozes and Black Puddings, you’ll see that a Shield should be destroyed in two successful hits. If you want a different official metric.

In context of the Sunless Citadel adventure, I think it was implied good PCs would seek to return Shatterspike to the relevant Church Of Pelor, and maybe get some kind of compensation. If you or the PC wants a clear way to trade it for something more conventional.

Disarming an enemy would also allow the spell Shatter to work, at the risk friendly fire.

[Segev]

The elven wizard in my Tomb of Annihilation game picked up Shatterspike; it's a longsword, so he's racially proficient. He has used it in melee (in fact, did so last session several times), but he mostly uses it to attack environment elements. Cutting through stone and wood and the like because it gets to ignore hardness and is unbreakable.

I'm a little worried about what I should do if he uses it to try to hack his way back out through the two sealed doors that lock people in the Tomb itself. There's the usual "have a bunch of denizens of the dungeon hear it and come to investigate," but I don't know that that will be sufficient or dissuasive. My big concern is whether it should be possible to do permanent damage to the Tomb's doors like that. I doubt the kobolds and the other denizens can fix that kind of damage with any alacrity.

Heck, if they don't get all the puzzle cubes before they find the entrance, I wonder if they'll hack their way IN.

[Waazraath]

When I DM'ed this, I said bugger it, I'm not gonna jump through hoops just to get an item working with an ability that only existed 2 editions before. I replaced it with a Dragonslayer, also a decent +1 weapon with situational effect.

[LtPowers]

My take is that "hitting an object", as required by the item description, does not include "the attack missed because of the AC provided by the object". In game terms, hitting an object requires that object to be the target of an attack roll.


Powers &8^]

[MaxWilson]

Thanks, this is all very helpful. What about something like a shield? Narratively, I tend to describe weapons hitting a creature's shield (assuming they have one) when the attack roll would have hit if not the shield's +2 AC bonus. Of course, mechanically, I don't rule that normal weapons cause any damage to the shield.

But it definitely seems that a case could be made that Shatterspike is hitting an object in that scenario.

It's being deflected by an object in that case, but that's not the same thing as directly attacking the object. (Same way that a fencing parry looks completely different from attacking the weapon.) I have no problems saying "you still can't damage the shield as long as it's actively being wielded by a conscious creature."

I probably would let you Disarm the shield though to make it no longer actively wielded: it would still be on your arm, but no longer functioning as a shield until your next turn, and at that point it could be attacked as long as it wasn't attuned. So Extra Attack + Shatterspike or GWM/etc. could then shatter the shield.

I'd call a shield AC 16-19 (16 for wood, 19 for steel) and 3d6 HP.

[JackPhoenix]

(Same way that a fencing parry looks completely different from attacking the weapon.)

Wait, you're saying that about every movie swordfight ever has lied to me? What's next, armor that actually does something?

[Segev]

Wait, you're saying that about every movie swordfight ever has lied to me? What's next, armor that actually does something?
https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3hnaytZD61rv231do1_640.jpg

[Pex]

https://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3hnaytZD61rv231do1_640.jpg

A few of my characters want that armor.
:smallwink:

[Segev]

A few of my characters want that armor.
:smallwink:

I played a Solar based on that image, once. I knew nothing about Gilgamesh-from-Fate at the time. I was surprised, later, to learn how close the personality of my character was to Gil's.

[TheCleverGuy]

Thanks again for the insight, everybody. Sounds like I should keep it simple and stick to only allowing it to work on items that aren't being worn or carried. Maybe I'll allow the player to target a wielded weapon at disadvantage.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks again for the insight, everybody. Sounds like I should keep it simple and stick to only allowing it to work on items that aren't being worn or carried. Maybe I'll allow the player to target a wielded weapon at disadvantage.

And make sure the player knows they're allowed to use the DMG Disarm rules.

[Yuroch Kern]

The way I do it, It is a modified Disarm: the opposed check versus the attack is at minimum the AC of the material. A steel sword has an object AC of 19. The attack roll must defeat the greater of either the check or the material AC. It does not Disarm, though. Shatterspike was a cool weapon, I'm glad it has returned!

[ScoutTrooper]

I've ran my party through Sunless Citadel as well when they bit the hook. The paladin also picked up the weapon. I've had to remind him he had it and his character knew the properties when him and the EK kept trying to crowbar open doors the Rogue wouldn't pick (Yey party splits)

He asked about hitting mob's weapons, and I said yes, it would work. He tried it on a Water Elemental Myrmidon, and broke the 'magical trident' I was going to make lootable. OH well.

I rule it, that he has to declare if he's attacking the object. With Shatterspike, it auto crits on the object. This is easily done through Roll20. On his sheet, he's got three attacks (One-handed), (Two-handed), (Object). So when he rolls for object, it always crits and does double damage rolls.

I'm okay with the ability to sunder/disarm via attack. Especially if it's some mob with high AC due to armor and shield. With the paladin choosing to hit an object, lessens the DPR for that round, but then opens it up in subsequent rounds for the WM Sorc to hit with nukes, the EK to hit with his spells or weapons.

I really don't have to worry about him breaking through locked doors, seeing as the Sorc was already casting shatter to ruin those. I've since adapted to simple traps and puzzles for them to overthink, and then destroy causing more ruin.

Water puzzles are fun, and flooding dungeons make for a great 'time bomb'

[Segev]

ScoutTrooper, when you say "auto-crits," are you making him roll, or are you saying it hits and crits without a roll?

[ScoutTrooper]

ScoutTrooper, when you say "auto-crits," are you making him roll, or are you saying it hits and crits without a roll?

No he still rolls to met or beat the object AC, but it's always a critical for damage.

[Pex]

He asked about hitting mob's weapons, and I said yes, it would work. He tried it on a Water Elemental Myrmidon, and broke the 'magical trident' I was going to make lootable. OH well.



Bingo. That's why players don't want to sunder. Did the players later find out? Sundering looks cool in movies and tv shows. When the villain does it against the hero, it's an uh oh! When the hero does it against the villain, it's an oh yeah! When it's an NPC weapon like Mjolnir, it's oh ----! When it comes to D&D, it's don't destroy our treasure! It's totally emotional.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

One of the players in a campaign I'm running has Shatterspike. I've been giving it either advantage or double damage on objects. Some of the sentient weapons that came up later in Tales from the Yawning Portal expressed concern about Shatterspike being around but to this point it has never come up and I'm wavering on the effect we'll use. Far as attacking a non magical weapons I'd probably give Shatterspike double damage and the ability to actually target them. It just seems thematic. Maybe somehow it will turn up broken.

Its neat that 2 or 3 years later someone is proudly carrying a +1 weapon around they got a level 3 and its still handy.