Building an Epic Diviner/Seer

[Caladbolg]

Hey, all.

I'm going to be joining a level 20 campaign soon, with the possibility of going epic.

My character is going to be the head of intelligence for the party. We were part of a war before, so I would have been the one doing the scrying, divination, and when the need arose, assasination of key targets. Very much someone who manipulates circumstances so that others can achieve a decisive victory, rather than one who personally crushes armies.

With that in mind, I could be a diviner of a divine, arcane, or psionic bent. So long as I have an int rank and plenty of knoweldges, it's fine with my backstory. I prefer the psionic system to vancian, and I like the really high end Seer powers for breaking through mind blank and the like, but I feel I want to have all of those niche divination spells the wizard/archivist has- my char is a massive bibliophile, so eshewing a spellbook seems weird.

But apart from my slight distate for vancian, and it's overall weaker divinations, it does have more spells, in addition to all of those niche spells Psion wouldn't have room to take- I can use them to fit any circumstance- to really give the sense of being forewarned and prepared for anything. I could go Wizard or Archivist, with basically any combination of prestige classes if Psion doesn't work out. I guess, I'm worried a Seer might not have the means to act on information they gather.

I'm not sure about what prestige class to take in any case, or any other details about character build beyond my inclination towards divination. This is practical optimisation, not theoretical, so I need something strong, but not utterly. We have other full casters (I think, a Rainbow servant/Warmage, and some others?) but still has to be reasonable. Multiclass xp penalties are in effect.

Anyone have any advice on what to build?

TLDR, Help me make a Divination Archivist/Wizard, or a Seer Psion. Level 20, possibility for epic

[Palanan]

Can you tell us what sources are available to you, and whether material from Pathfinder is accepted?

[Caladbolg]

Can you tell us what sources are available to you, and whether material from Pathfinder is accepted?

Yeah, sorry, should have included that in the OP!

First party published material is blanket allowed, unless the DM specifically vetoes it. Dragon magazine is available on application, although discouraged. Published third party can also be applied for. Pathfinder material is not allowed.

[Heavenblade]

The simplest (and probably most effective way) to build a highevel diviner is diviner wizard 5/Divine oracle X/Unseen seer X, divide levels as you wish.


Take the spontaneous divination ACF from phb II, and...you are pretty much done!

This character has access to an absurd amount of divination spells, using the oracle domain+advanced learning to get all the good ones outside the list.


Another less obvious option -
A spell to power erudite - if you prefer the psionic system, just pick divination-spell powers in addition to paionic divination powers. Youll get "the spontaneous divination" trick in some form- less versatility, but not vanician.


I recall building an incarnate that used scrying, but maybe Im just confused with another subsystem...

[Telonius]

How big is the party? Artificer (or Psionic Artificer, from the Magic of Eberron variant) is a pretty good "force multiplier." Given time and gold, the class has a whole lot of the tricks that a Wizard, Cleric, or Psion does. Also very much fits in with the "manipulates circumstances so that others can achieve a decisive victory, rather than one who personally crushes armies" thing.

[AvatarVecna]

The advantage of going with a Wizard or Archivist build like what got posted up there is that a prepared vancian caster is at their strongest when they've prepared the right handful of spells from the billion available for the situation they're in...and diviner specializes in knowing what kinda situation they should expect to be in later. Uncanny Forethought might also be a good idea: it sets aside [Int mod] spell slots which you can either use to spontaneously cast one of a handful of pre-selected spells, or can be used to spontaneously cast any spell in your spellbook as a Full Round Action (instead of its normal casting time). This gives you some pretty amazing flexibility.

[Rebel7284]

Some thoughts:

- Wizards and Clerics/Archivists have much wider set of divination option, but Seer has access to Metafaculty, which is, as far as I know, the only divination effect that defeats wish explicitly. This is pretty relevant since you are starting at 20.

I guess the question becomes which ridiculous game-breaking stuff do you want to use?

Vancian Caster Options:
- Craft Contingent Spell
- Free Metamagic from Incantatrix
- Supernatural Spell from Dweomerkeeper
- Uncanny Forethought
- Circle Magic

Psionics:
- Power Point Recharge
- Power Link Shards allowing you to augment 3 powers/day to 60+ Power Points
- Slightly better action economy

Overall, vancian casters have more support for ridiculous stuff, but psionics have no shortage of that.

If you want the best of both worlds, here is a build for you:

Kalashtar Seer 5/Thrallherd 10/x 5
- Get yourself 20 Power Link Shards
- Get yourself a Spell to Power Erutide Cohort
- Get yourself a Telepath Cohort with Psychic Chirurgery
- Get one of your Cohorts to setup a power point recharge for you

Telepath grants Psychic Chirurgery to StP Erutide
StP Erutide regularly uses Psychic Chirurgery to give you more spells.

You can skip the Telepath if you can just use Spellcasting services to get someone with Psychic Chirurgery to grant it to you or your StP cohort.

Of course you still don't get easy access to a few of the useful class features that spellcasters get, but you DO get every spell and power that you want along with all the fun psionic abuses all cast spontaneously and infinite number of times a day.

Alternatively, be both?
Cerebremancer/Psychic Theurge will let you be effectively seer 17/Wizard or Archivist 13 even if you don't do any early entry tricks which gives you plenty of leeway to do stuff like Craft Contingent Spell. Maybe go into Mind Mage in epic?

If your DM is particularly tolerant and allows Ardent with Customize Mantle and with the RAW ruling that their power choices are based on Manifest Level, not power level, you can even get 9th level spells AND powers and squeeze in a little Spellcasting class features too, but that's a little cheesy even for my tastes since it relies on writers clearly not thinking.

[Caladbolg]

To respond to you all in order-

@Heavenblade, the wizard build seems simple and elegant. I’d eventually like some way to pierce mind blank, but it is definitely very nice along with something like uncanny forethought.

@Telonius, 4-5 people. I’m not keen on the artificer, however- it seems simultaneously too broken, and too complex to handle. I’ve just never much liked it, although it is quite fitting, I agree. Just don’t want a migraine, or to have the book thrown at me.

@AvatarVecna, those were my thoughts exactly. Forethought is a hell of a drug. Managing spells prepared is a bit tedious, but what can you do.

@Rebel7284, I wanted metafaculty quite a lot for the reason you pointed out- it trumps everything that isn’t epic. Most of the Vancian tricks you mentioned I’m ok with- circle magic is too cumbersome, and I’m not sure if Incantarix will be green lit, but stuff like craft contingency and forethought are excellent. Thrallherd/Chirugery or stp Erudite, however, is wayyy too powerful. I’d get the book thrown at me.

I was actually thinking about Cerebremancer- Mind mage too Is spending approval. However, multi class exp penalty is a thing- so with mind mage, if I keep my levels balanced, I won’t have any 9’s before epic (which we might not even enter!) thanks to the spells/powers lost to mind mage, and just having low-level powers/spells from Cerebremancer alone won’t get me high level divination from the other side.

[Rebel7284]

@Rebel7284, I wanted metafaculty quite a lot for the reason you pointed out- it trumps everything that isn’t epic. Most of the Vancian tricks you mentioned I’m ok with- circle magic is too cumbersome, and I’m not sure if Incantarix will be green lit, but stuff like craft contingency and forethought are excellent. Thrallherd/Chirugery or stp Erudite, however, is wayyy too powerful. I’d get the book thrown at me.

I mean, your party already has a character that casts all Cleric spells spontaneously. Using a 9th level power as printed to replicate that for a big list of powers isn't necessarily much more powerful. Of course whether or not spells can be converted to powers is up to your DM, as is everything. I can see a DM feeling that the full setup to guarantee this is too much because then you are playing 3 psions instead of everyone else playing one character, but also, you can replicate this quite easily without Thrallherd by just paying for spellcasting services, if available.




I was actually thinking about Cerebremancer- Mind mage too Is spending approval. However, multi class exp penalty is a thing- so with mind mage, if I keep my levels balanced, I won’t have any 9’s before epic (which we might not even enter!) thanks to the spells/powers lost to mind mage, and just having low-level powers/spells from Cerebremancer alone won’t get me high level divination from the other side.

Kalashtar have favored class Psion, so that would help with Multiclass Penalties.