Is Scourge Aasimar a waste of time?

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm taking about Radiant Consumption, which is a super cool ability that seems pretty powerful - but takes your Action to initiate. My gut feeling is that 90% of the time you're better off using your action to attack or use class features.

Specifically, I'm thinking about using it on a Barbarian. In that case, there's a synergy with Rage, where the radiant damage you take from Radiant Consumption keeps your Rage going. But, I just can't help think that that would be my Action plus a Bonus Action to RC and Rage and I wouldn't actually achieve anything. Thoughts?

[RSP]

But, I just can't help think that that would be my Action plus a Bonus Action to RC and Rage and I wouldn't actually achieve anything. Thoughts?

Not horribly concerned about the use of an Action, as it’s an AoE effect, therefore, only use it when the number of creatures affected makes it worthwhile.

Hadn’t thought about using it on a Barb to maintain Rage. It’s an interesting idea, but probably not very efficient. Aasimars already have Resistance to Radiant damage so even a Bearbarian won’t benefit from any damage reduction. If you’re not attacking or taking damage otherwise, why do you want Rage up? I understand filing in the odd gap where for 1 round you need something to hold you over, but carrying javelins or a crossbow might be more efficient than being an Aasimar and using an Action, and taking damage, just for those gaps.

My biggest issue with Radiant Consumption is it doesn’t end when incapacitated, so you’ll keep taking damage during Death Saves, meaning you’ll probably kill your character simply by using this ability.

[Amechra]

Darn, I was going to suggest a Scourge Barbarian. :smalltongue:

The synergy is actually a bit stronger than just keeping up Rage. Since you're a melee character, you'll have at least one enemy in range of Radiant Consumption on turns where you can make attacks.

[CTurbo]

I have played a Scourge Aasimar Zealot Barbarian and it was great. I played the Radiant Consumption ability as like a next level Rage type feature. It was an extremely flavorful combo IMO. Just keep in mind that it hurts your buddies that are close to you too. I loved it though. I'd actually jump at the chance to play another Scourge Barb.

[DrKerosene]

Well, it lets you add Radiant Damage to melee attacks, and does an AoE effect too, which should make it a useful ability for fighting undead and swarms of minions.

Additionally, if your Barbarian is chained-up, tied-up, caged, etc, you might be able to simply burn your way to freedom if you can’t make a Strength check to break free.

It seems more useful than a single Fear effect from the fallen aasimar, and I’m usually not interested in Flight enough to go for the protector one (nor have I had extremely tactical games when I’m a player).

[Mr Adventurer]

Not horribly concerned about the use of an Action, as it’s an AoE effect, therefore, only use it when the number of creates affected makes it worthwhile.

That's an ameliorating factor, it's true.


Hadn’t thought about using it on a Barb to maintain Rage. It’s an interesting idea, but probably not very efficient.

What do you mean?


Aasimars already have Resistance to Radiant damage so even a Bearbarian won’t benefit from any damage reduction.

I don't follow this at all. "Even" Bear Totem Barbarians won't benefit from the damage resistance? You mean, only Bear Totems won't benefit? That sounds like a plus, not a minus.


If you’re not attacking or taking damage otherwise, why do you want Rage up? I understand filing in the odd gap where for 1 round you need something to hold you over, but carrying javelins or a crossbow might be more efficient than being an Aasimar and using an Action, and taking damage, just for those gaps.

Scenarios in our game where it would have been useful for my Barbarian who does have javelins and a crossbow:

Encounter is a chase scene, attacks aren't always possible to make or aren't incoming but Rage is wanted for the damage reduction, Athletics bonus, and eventual attacks when the chase is over AC is to high for enemies to hit reliably and I've had to do something other than attack with my Action Still closing with the enemy and don't have enough hands to switch between weapons Enemy is out of range


My biggest issue with Radiant Consumption is it doesn’t end when incapacitated, so you’ll keep taking damage during Death Saves, meaning you’ll probably kill your character simply by using this ability.

Damn, great catch. I'll have to to check with the DM.


Darn, I was going to suggest a Scourge Barbarian. :smalltongue:

The synergy is actually a bit stronger than just keeping up Rage. Since you're a melee character, you'll have at least one enemy in range of Radiant Consumption on turns where you can make attacks.

Yeah, it looks great once it's going, I don't contend that at all. It's just the action economy cost to start it up.


I have played a Scourge Aasimar Zealot Barbarian and it was great. I played the Radiant Consumption ability as like a next level Rage type feature. It was an extremely flavorful combo IMO. Just keep in mind that it hurts your buddies that are close to you too. I loved it though. I'd actually jump at the chance to play another Scourge Barb.

Interesting! What levels did you play to?

(As a matter of fact, my Barbarian is a Zealot too)

[chainer1216]

I'm ALSO playing a scourge zealot, my group is doing Dungeon Of The Mad Mage, we're lvl6 currently, I end up using Radiant Consumption sparingly, only in the big encounters as a sort "Super Rage" my DM has jokingly referred to it as a number of various Gaming or Anime power ups.

[Mr Adventurer]

Randomly on the topic of Aasimar: their innate spellcasting doesn't remove the need for components, so although they can cast the Light cantrip at will, they need to use phosphorescent moss or fireflies every time.

[Crucius]

The aura is guaranteed damage. That's a guaranteed concentration save on an enemy spellcaster.

If it's damage you're concerned about we can do a napkin-calculation:

You want to have more damage than you lost by not attacking the first turn.
Assuming 1 target AoE damage and 2 more turns of attacks.

Radiant damage: 0.5x+2*1.5x, where X is your level
Assuming biggest average damage possible (greatsword), 18 STR, no zealot for now: 13 damage per attack (rage damage included)

13/3.5 = 3.7 So on level 4 it is worth it to use radiant consumption
What about extra attack?: 26/3.5= 7.4 so from level 8 onward it deals more damage on average than two attacks.

Zealot messes this calculation up a bit as it has a damage bonus on 1 attack that scales with level, so maybe for that specific subclass it might not be worth it.

Edit: I also played a Scourge Aasimar Barbarian, Ancestral Guardian this time. It was bonkers. The amount of flat damage I could do with this and GWM was... bonkers.

[Mr Adventurer]

That's great, thank you.

I guess I haven't given this thread all of the information. Although I was thinking about Radiant Consumption in terms of its flat exchange, your post made me realise that it really should be in context. So, this is the character build I'm looking at. No element is negotiable except the kind of Aasimar:

Zealot 9
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10 before Aasimar racials
Shield Master and Resilient (Wisdom)
Half Plate armour, shield
Longsword +1

I've posted about this character before in a couple of threads. The theme is crusader knight errant, hence the heavier armour and shield. In play it works really well.

[RSP]

What do you mean?

Hopefully it was explained in the post, but I guess not. You’re taking 1/2 level damage every round, whether you need that damage to maintain Rage or not. Since you don’t know when those gaps will occur (or even if they’ll occur during any one instance of combat), it’s not horribly efficient. Since it’s a 1x/day ability, you may even use it when not needed (for that specific purpose of maintaining Rage, it’s damaging effects will still be useful), and not have it available when needed.

So in your chase example. If the chase goes for more than a minute, Rage will expire anyway. If it goes a minute, you’ve lost the benefit of the damaging effects for when you catch up to whomever you were chasing (if you need to take them down). Note: the Rage will also end on its own if level 10 or lower.

Now, if level 5+ the barbarian has +10 speed, so they’re probably one of the fastest characters, if not the fastest, in the party. Using an Action to activate RC is an Action not spent on Dash, when the objective is to move as fast as possible.

So the end result is when/if you catch your quarry, you’ve lost up to 5x level HP, and possibly don’t have Rage or RC up anyway, while having lost 40’ on your first movement of the chase.

That’s the lack of efficiency I was referring to.



I don't follow this at all. "Even" Bear Totem Barbarians won't benefit from the damage resistance? You mean, only Bear Totems won't benefit? That sounds like a plus, not a minus.

I was referring to the benefits of Resistance during Rage. Since Aasimars already have Resistance to Radiant damage, there is no benefit in terms of halving the Radiant damage, even if you’re playing a Bearbarian, as Resistance does not “stack”.

[Mr Adventurer]

Hopefully it was explained in the post, but I guess not. You’re taking 1/2 level damage every round, whether you need that damage to maintain Rage or not. Since you don’t know when those gaps will occur (or even if they’ll occur during any one instance of combat), it’s not horribly efficient. Since it’s a 1x/day ability, you may even use it when not needed (for that specific purpose of maintaining Rage, it’s damaging effects will still be useful), and not have it available when needed.

So in your chase example. If the chase goes for more than a minute, Rage will expire anyway. If it goes a minute, you’ve lost the benefit of the damaging effects for when you catch up to whomever you were chasing (if you need to take them down). Note: the Rage will also end on its own if level 10 or lower.

Now, if level 5+ the barbarian has +10 speed, so they’re probably one of the fastest characters, if not the fastest, in the party. Using an Action to activate RC is an Action not spent on Dash, when the objective is to move as fast as possible.

So the end result is when/if you catch your quarry, you’ve lost up to 5x level HP, and possibly don’t have Rage or RC up anyway, while having lost 40’ on your first movement of the chase.

That’s the lack of efficiency I was referring to.

Ah, I think I see. Thanks.




I was referring to the benefits of Resistance during Rage. Since Aasimars already have Resistance to Radiant damage, there is no benefit in terms of halving the Radiant damage, even if you’re playing a Bearbarian, as Resistance does not “stack”.

Still don't follow here though.

Aasimar Radiant resistance: yes
Rage B/P/S resistance: yes

So that is in fact a benefit for Aasimar non-Bear Totem Barbarians.

Bear Totem resistance to all damage but psychic: okay

That's when there's overlap. Scourge Bear Totem is the only time there's no additional benefit. So it's not "even Bear Totem", which implies that there's never a benefit, and Bear Totem almost manages to turn that around but isn't able to. It's "only Bear Totem", since that's the only one that doesn't enjoy the extra benefit.

You seem to be saying that a non-Bear Totem Barbarian wouldn't enjoy the benefit of the Aasimar resistances, but I don't believe that's the case.

[Crucius]

That's great, thank you.

I guess I haven't given this thread all of the information. Although I was thinking about Radiant Consumption in terms of its flat exchange, your post made me realise that it really should be in context. So, this is the character build I'm looking at. No element is negotiable except the kind of Aasimar:

Zealot 9
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 10 before Aasimar racials
Shield Master and Resilient (Wisdom)
Half Plate armour, shield
Longsword +1

I've posted about this character before in a couple of threads. The theme is crusader knight errant, hence the heavier armour and shield. In play it works really well.

I was in a hurry during my last post, so allow me to redo the calculation, including zealot stuff and the longsword you use:

The damage you are missing in your first round averages out to 32.5 damage (including zealot damage (1d6+4) and rage damage, which is now +3).
Plugging this into the formula reveals that at level 9.3, so level 10, you do more damage if the fight takes 2 more turns (for a total of 3, which is common). If it takes more turns it immediately becomes worth it damage wise. If there is more than one enemy in your radius, it immediately becomes worth it, regardless of level.

So long story short: the difference isn't stellar right now, but you are definitely not doing LESS damage. Analyse the battle to see if you can A) get multiple enemies in your radius, or B) if the fight will take long. If either or both is true, pop the ability.

Ribbon-benefits to this are that you can't shield master shove on the same turn you rage, so you're not losing out on that combo by doing Radiant Consumption on your first turn, and that you didn't reckless attack so enemies don't have advantage on you, increasing your survivability slightly.

So in my opinion, which is backed up by a quick-n-dirty damage calculation: it is not a waste of time.

[RSP]

You seem to be saying that a non-Bear Totem Barbarian wouldn't enjoy the benefit of the Aasimar resistances, but I don't believe that's the case.

No, I was pointing out that there’s no resistance benefit to Rage if taking Radiant damage, even if you’re a Bearbarian.

In the OP, it wasn’t clear what subclass you had taken, and you were discussing using RC to maintain Rage. I was just pointing out that the damage mitigation property of Rage wouldn’t help against RC, because Aasimars are already resistant.

It was just a clarification in case a) you were playing a Bear Totem Barb, and b) were thinking that Rage would further help mitigate the Radiant damage your Barb would be taking. It’s obviously a moot point now, as we know you’re playing a Zealot.

[Amechra]

Hopefully it was explained in the post, but I guess not. You’re taking 1/2 level damage every round, whether you need that damage to maintain Rage or not. Since you don’t know when those gaps will occur (or even if they’ll occur during any one instance of combat), it’s not horribly efficient. Since it’s a 1x/day ability, you may even use it when not needed (for that specific purpose of maintaining Rage, it’s damaging effects will still be useful), and not have it available when needed.

I think you're skipping over the Resistance to Radiant damage that Aasimar get. You're actually taking 1/4 level damage every round - our 9th-level Barbarian (to use the OP's build as an example) would be looking at taking 2 damage per round due to rounding.

Also, funnily enough, Radiant Consumption lets you use Healing Hands during Rage without having it lapse. That's not fantastic, but it amuses me.

[RSP]

I think you're skipping over the Resistance to Radiant damage that Aasimar get. You're actually taking 1/4 level damage every round - our 9th-level Barbarian (to use the OP's build as an example) would be looking at taking 2 damage per round due to rounding.

Also, funnily enough, Radiant Consumption lets you use Healing Hands during Rage without having it lapse. That's not fantastic, but it amuses me.

Apologies, you are correct: I was assuming the damage was the same as the added Radiant damage 1x/round. With Resistance, the Aasimar will take 1/4 level damage. So until level 4, RC cannot even be used to maintain Rage (as the Aasimar will not take damage).

[Amechra]

Apologies, you are correct: I was assuming the damage was the same as the added Radiant damage 1x/round. With Resistance, the Aasimar will take 1/4 level damage. So until level 4, RC cannot even be used to maintain Rage (as the Aasimar will not take damage).

You'd still take 1 damage at 3rd level, actually - the amount of damage you deal is rounded up, unlike the resistance (which rounds down). Yeah, it took me a few minutes of staring at the features and cross-referencing books to be sure about that interaction.

For reference (pre-applying both roundings): You'll take 1 damage per round at 3rd level. This damage increases by 1 at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels.

[DevilMcam]

I think that all the aasiar active abilities are excellent abilities (less so the fallen one but still) for several reason.

1. You get to chose when to use it. if it's not worth, just don't use it, it's fine, wizards don't cast fireball every single encounters just because they can.

2. One thing That I thing have been forgoten in the previous calculations is accuracy as a rule of thumb the extra on hit damage (excluding the aura which is the icing on the cake, as is the fly or fear effect) is worth your round when you get to hit twice with it. Your expected damage per round is 32.5 as pointed out previously. IF you hit all attacks. in reallity it is actually much lower than that because of AC. against AC 18 you only do 84% (expected 27.3) of that with advantage or 60% (expected 19.5). without reckless attack the lost round is compensated by Two rounds of damage from the on hit damage only, anything more is already free profit (such as the 2 rounds of aura damage against your main target). Even if you would have used reckless attack on your first round the on hit bonus damage plus the aura catch up in 2 rounds as well. any extra target cought in the fire or additionnal round of attacks is extra profit.

NB this is inacurate napkin math, I'll edit this later once double checked, but zealots bonus damage is a pain to calculate accurately.
TL-DR : The more HP, AC and number of targets, the better this ability becomes. Unless you are facing a single ennemy that will die in 2 turns you're good to go.

3. It lets memake terrible Puns.
when you use radiant consumption it's now your time to shine.

[Crucius]

2. One thing That I thing have been forgoten in the previous calculations is accuracy as a rule of thumb the extra on hit damage (excluding the aura which is the icing on the cake, as is the fly or fear effect) is worth your round when you get to hit twice with it. Your expected damage per round is 32.5 as pointed out previously. IF you hit all attacks. in reallity it is actually much lower than that because of AC. against AC 18 you only do 84% (expected 27.3) of that with advantage or 60% (expected 19.5). without reckless attack the lost round is compensated by Two rounds of damage from the on hit damage only, anything more is already free profit (such as the 2 rounds of aura damage against your main target). Even if you would have used reckless attack on your first round the on hit bonus damage plus the aura catch up in 2 rounds as well. any extra target cought in the fire or additionnal round of attacks is extra profit.

Yes, all too true. I was of course working with the worst case scenario, where all the attacks hit for maximum average lost damage.

What DevilMcam says is another argument in favor of radiant consumption being very very good. Your chances are better of hitting at least one attack in your following turns, which gets both zealot AND aasimar damage bonuses.

Good stuff!

[ScoutTrooper]

Randomly on the topic of Aasimar: their innate spellcasting doesn't remove the need for components, so although they can cast the Light cantrip at will, they need to use phosphorescent moss or fireflies every time.

Or a component pouch.

[Mr Adventurer]

Or a component pouch.

"Or"? No... that's where the moss or fireflies are kept. How did you think they worked...?

[Mr Adventurer]

You'd still take 1 damage at 3rd level, actually - the amount of damage you deal is rounded up, unlike the resistance (which rounds down). Yeah, it took me a few minutes of staring at the features and cross-referencing books to be sure about that interaction.

For reference (pre-applying both roundings): You'll take 1 damage per round at 3rd level. This damage increases by 1 at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels.
How do you figure? I see the ruling that all fractions round down.

[DrKerosene]

How do you figure? I see the ruling that all fractions round down.

I’m pretty sure this is the racial ability:
Starting at 3rd level, you can use your action to unleash the divine energy ... (snip) ... you and each creature within 10 feet of you take radiant damage equal to half your level (rounded up). In addition, once on each of your turns, you can deal extra radiant damage to one target when you deal damage to it with an attack or a spell. The extra radiant damage equals your level.

Once you use this trait, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
At level 3 this deals 2 points of Radiant damage (reduced to 1 for the Aasimar). Level 7 deals 4 points of damage, reduced to 2, etc.

[Mr Adventurer]

Ah! Of course. So at 9th level, enemies take 5 radiant and you take 2 radiant.