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Drache64
2020-05-15, 10:46 AM
So I am stuck in an awkward social situation, and I am turning to a bunch of random strangers on the internet for 2 reasons. 1. Good to have a place to vent, and 2. You guys have a lot of experiences in a lot of different situations and while I am probably best positioned to make the decision I would love other perspectives.

So I am a big fan of D&D since 3.5. I taught all my friends how to play, they were great DMs, we had years of fun. Then I moved to a new state, new job, new people. I found that the group of friends I fell into were huge D&D fans but didn't have as much experience and really only played with the same DM. They have played a lot and for a few years but still at the stage where they aren't entirely sure what their classes do until they level up and read the rules. (ALL GOOD!!! Love new players).

But the DM is a newer DM. He railroads worse than people who play Ticket to Ride. The more thought and agency you put into your character the more he will railroad you and even take away your character agency. He likes to design his encounters to counter the party. He has chosen fights where multiple characters have been sidelined because they have no answer for his creatures. No big deal! that happens.... but there is one thing for your character not being prepared, and a totally different thing when your DM asks you for your character sheet, sees what you can do and then plans to subvert it every week.

In short, we have played for months, the sessions just aren't fun and usually unenjoyable for me. But these are our very good friends and I honestly really like the DM as a person, he's just a terrible DM. Leaving the party would cause real life drama. My recommendations on ways that I could have more enjoyment have been seen as just complaining (despite desperately trying not to come across that way).

I don't see any way out but to suck it up, sit at the table every week for the next year or so, and just grin and bear it. The hard part is I am very busy and the hours I spend sitting at his table are the only DnD hours I can muster. So I can't go find a player group I really enjoy because I can't afford two DnD sessions a week (I work 60 hours and have a wife and 3 kids [one is 9 months old]). Especially since my wife plays with us at this table. She isn't having fun either but she just likes to sit around the table with her friends and that's all that really matters to her.

I mean, honestly, the whole table is kind of okay with just going along with whatever the DM wants and regardless of right, wrong, bad, or good, that's this table's unspoken social contract and I feel it would be wrong of me to try and change the whole dynamic just so I could have more fun (Rule of the many).

I don't see a way out but I would love for some more perspectives! If you need more details ask away!

P.S.
In lasts night's encounter he had our party ambushed by a kobold. My wife objected that as the revised ranger (a UA the DM recommended she play) she remains alert to danger after traveling an hour. The Dm begrudgingly let her roll to see if she noticed anything. She gets a natural 20. The DM says "well this doesn't seem dangerous so your character would just let it happen". My wife shrugs and says "okay sure". I flick a fire bolt at the thing to scare it away. The Kobold then counter-spells my fire-bolt and reveals he had a wish scroll and began laughing manically. I say I use misty step to get behind him. The DM has us roll initiative, I get a 21. He says I go first. I teleport behind him, then the Kobold interrupts my turn with a legendary action as a reaction and casts the wish scroll. He has my character and the kobold disappear. The cleric casts Augury to inquire about my fate and the DM replies "you get 'Woe'... this isn't going to end well for him". He then ends the session.

I didn't rules lawyer him, I didn't complain, I just watched this unfold and then thanked him for the session and we ended the night. This is standard stuff for him. His story is all that really matters, not us players. Based on the history with him, I am expecting to be punished.... *telling myself* "Grin and bear it..."

GrayDeath
2020-05-15, 11:05 AM
Assuming you are giving us the full story, no.

He is NOT your friend if, after you talking to him and explaining why what things run counter to your enjoyment, does nothing to change it.

Societal awkward situation or not, you are not obligated to spend hours not having fun.

My only suggestion is to get him alone, talk to him, be as brutally honest about your quarrels with his GMing as possible, but be SURE to offer ideas how to change this without him going full sandbox.

I ahve experience with railroady GM`s (and friends doing that), if one accepts that both sides have to compromise all participants can still have fun.

If not, well, as old as it is, but "Not palying at all is better than bad Gaming".

If you cannot change his mind, and do not enjoy his style, you will have to leave the group (and maybe GM yourself), as bad as it sounds.

Xervous
2020-05-15, 11:11 AM
Have you thought about a simple open discussion about what GM and player expectations are? Just lay out in so many words what your expectations and hopes were that spurred you to join the D&D group. But do this after asking the GM what his views and expectations are for the group.

If it turns out that he explicitly states he does want to play the sessions as his own movie with the players just along for the ride you have a variety of inroads. “I hoped to play in a group where my character would be challenged, choices would be available and meaningful to the progression of our group’s story, and petunia carrot whimdivels...”

It’s impossible to guess what his response might be, but the important thing is attempting to smoothly get him on the same page as everyone else or at the very least understand his goals and motivation before you bring out the knuckle dusters.

Cygnia
2020-05-15, 11:17 AM
Echoing GrayDeath: he does not sound like a "good friend" at all. I'd say talk to the other players, see if they feel the same way about him -- and if they do, make sure they have your back when you confront him.

http://www.plausiblydeniable.com/opinion/gsf.html

Willie the Duck
2020-05-15, 11:22 AM
I see a way out -- talk to him. No, actually, I cannot stress this enough Talk. To. Him.!!!

DMing is like standup comedy, you do not get better by preparing your material and performing it towards a lack of feedback, you need an audience and their reaction to guide your course-corrections. If no one has spoken up (and, let's be clear, if the rest of the group prefers the current style, they are more than able to voice their own preferences as well after you have made your pitch), then of course the DM has been stuck at square one, DMing-development-wise.

I would, in a nonconfrontational manner, tell your friend that you and your wife aren't having fun at gaming. Break down why, and if they don't want to address any of it, you politely say that you'd be more than happy to play an actual game of Ticket to Ride with everyone when they are in the mood for not-D&D, and walk off into the night.

prabe
2020-05-15, 11:38 AM
As others have said, talk to your DM. Maybe point him at online how-to resources (such as https://thealexandrian.net/ or https://slyflourish.com/index.html or https://theangrygm.com/ depending on his personality and his ... patience for intellectualism and/or sarcasm). Let him know that you're not enjoying the game, and make it clear why--and make it clear it's not a personal attack.

If he's unwilling or unable to learn (or change), I guess your next option is to offer to DM yourself. I'm in a long-running group that trades off GMing, even though one of the players (not me!) basically only enjoys TRPGs when he's GMing. Maybe you can offer it as a chance for him to play--it might serve as a good example for him, as a bonus.

Either way, good luck. It's a tricky position to be in.

Segev
2020-05-15, 12:17 PM
I know talking to people about things like this is hard. It sounds like you've tried, since you say it's been dismissed as "complaining." I would explain that you're not having fun, and see if he's willing to discuss why. If you can convince him to change what he's doing to allow you to enjoy it more, great. If not, do your best to stay calm and friendly, and apologize and say that you don't think you're a good fit for his game.

If this isn't a date night activity and your wife enjoys hanging out with her friends, maybe you can volunteer to watch your kiddos rather than hiring a babysitter or having them interrupt the session with periodic supervision needs.

Depending on whether you can afford the time commitment to work on it, you could also volunteer to run a game. Maybe a short dungeon that takes only 1-4 sessions (Sunless Citadel is a good one if you're running 5e, and I know it was written for 3e if you're running that, too). Don't lecture and say "see, this is how it's done" or anything, but run by example. Offer it as something of a break for the current DM, perhaps, or when he's not available.

If you're genuinely stuck just "grinning and bearing it," see to it you have something to do when you're not allowed to play. Don't fight him over what he's saying; take it as your character being just your contribution to his story, and let him railroad. If you go there for something other than the game, and let him tell his story while you get your enjoyment elsewhere, that works, too.

Do be honest about this, and do talk to him. If he gets angry and defensive, you can choose to back off. But try to make sure he knows where you're coming from.

Don't let him punish you through your character. By this I mean: don't let it BE a punishment. The worst he can do is make you unable to play. So if you're prepared to just let him move your character along on rails while you have other sources of enjoyment from hanging out with your friends, he can't punish you. Just don't invest in your character; invest in the story. See where it goes.

Again, this is if he won't talk with you about it and won't or can't do differently in order to make it more fun for you. This is just a solution to the problem as you present it, where you can't get him to change how he runs and he's "punishing" you for "complaining."

MoiMagnus
2020-05-15, 01:00 PM
At some point, if you're not having fun, that's definitely something you need to talk about. Things won't get better (and will probably get worse) if you don't communicate.
You can continue to play if you consider it's worth it. Spending time doing thing you don't personally like, because peoples you care about have fun, is something reasonable. Just be aware that a lot of time you "sacrifice" for maintaining those relationship.

When reading you're text, I'm kind of thinking this guy would probably be better fit for "DMing" boardgames like Descent into the Darkness (and many others, that's just the only one I played) or any of those semi-D&D boardgame where the DM is actually an opponent of the PCs and is restricted by rules on how he can attack and kill them.

kyoryu
2020-05-15, 01:57 PM
A) Talk to him
B) Recognize that, maybe, this is just his style. It's different than yours, but if you go into it expecting it, maybe you can find something enjoyable.

I hate linear, pre-published games. But if I know that's what I'm getting into, I can deal with it.

King of Nowhere
2020-05-15, 03:40 PM
if he does not accept you talking to him, you can try to talk to the other players first. see if you can get them to your side, then again talk to the dm and form a unified front.
other option is, you pick up dming

Knaight
2020-05-15, 04:41 PM
Quit. Assuming you're friends outside D&D, keep doing whatever else you do together*, but their style clearly disagrees with you** enough that you're not only not having fun but you're getting frustrated instead. The real life drama you allude to will likely be entirely manageable, and if it isn't then you've probably dodged a bullet there too.

*Inasmuch as you can in the current circumstances.
**Probably because it's terrible.

Nifft
2020-05-15, 04:54 PM
In my experience, some great DMs come from former players who chafed under a bad DM, and some bad DMs become excellent players.

Run a game and do it better.

Mr Beer
2020-05-15, 05:06 PM
Talk to him. You said you already did, so quit.

There's lots of people I like but I can't conceive of anyone I wouldn't quit a game on if they sucked at DM-ing and refused to accept my feedback on the subject LET ALONE if was working 60 hour weeks and had young children around. Some friend's feels would be so far down my list of concerns that I can't fathom the issue here. You have real responsibilities in your life, assigning your precious spare time to a hobby you are not enjoying is just ridiculous. Have a word with yourself.

Zarrgon
2020-05-15, 07:12 PM
I guess I should point out that this guy is not quite the "great friend" you think he is...you might want to downgrade him to "guy whose name I know and think is OK".

You could just be not mixing with the DMs style. That happens.

In any case:

If you don't like the game and are not having fun: then just quit. Gather some players and play another game. You don't have to DM, you can get someone to do it.

Or just relax. Just hang out and have fun. When the DM says X happens just shrug and say "ok".

Dimers
2020-05-16, 07:35 AM
Don't let him punish you through your character. By this I mean: don't let it BE a punishment. The worst he can do is make you unable to play. So if you're prepared to just let him move your character along on rails while you have other sources of enjoyment from hanging out with your friends, he can't punish you.

Trying to get a different kind of joy is a good idea. I'm in one game right now where the GM forces every situation to be a skin-of-teeth success, regardless of how well or how poorly the characters would normally perform. Not my playstyle! I want defeat to be a real possibility and I want to feel like optimal choices are better than suboptimal ones, neither of which is true for this game. So I continue to play, but instead of danger fun and optimization fun, I look for humor fun, story fun, instigator fun, and the pleasure of spending quality time with these particular people.

Tom Sawyer convinced people to enjoy painting a fence for him, so much that they paid him to do it. The lesson to take from that isn't "take advantage of people like Tom", it's "you can enjoy pretty much anything if you want to".

Drache64
2020-05-16, 08:52 AM
In my experience, some great DMs come from former players who chafed under a bad DM, and some bad DMs become excellent players.

Run a game and do it better.

I actually love DMing and have a whole campaign planned for when the time arises. But this is more about all the social issues I brought up. I think it would really hurt him if I left and started a different group.

Cygnia
2020-05-16, 09:00 AM
You are not responsible for this guy's reaction.

Anonymouswizard
2020-05-16, 09:28 AM
A good friend won't make you feel bad for stopping something you get no enjoyment out of. So yeah, the main options you have are 'talk to him (again)' or 'quit', and if the first doesn't work then nobody who cares about you should want you to spend your free time doing something you don't enjoy.

Segev
2020-05-16, 10:21 AM
I actually love DMing and have a whole campaign planned for when the time arises. But this is more about all the social issues I brought up. I think it would really hurt him if I left and started a different group.

If it hurts his feelings for you to leave because you're not having fun, and to join or start a group where you do, then he should be willing to adapt his running style. Otherwise, he's not being a friend, because he's valuing his own feelings but not yours.

That said, I would recommend trying to take over running for this group, and let him be a player. I don't mean it in a "hostile takeover" sense, either. Just...express your desire to DM. And do express it that way: You're feeling the urge to DM, and you miss doing it, and you'd like to have an opportunity. So you're offering to run for a while, next time the game gets to a good pause point or the current DM needs a break or whatever.

Nifft
2020-05-16, 01:15 PM
I actually love DMing and have a whole campaign planned for when the time arises. But this is more about all the social issues I brought up. I think it would really hurt him if I left and started a different group.

Stay friends if you can.

Tell him what's wrong with his game when you leave, putting it in the most neutral, non-blaming language possible.

Let him learn the lesson that bad games make people leave, and hope that he improves (as a DM or as a player, doesn't really matter as long as he improves).

Give him another chance in a few years.

Friv
2020-05-16, 02:30 PM
First, I'm going to echo what the others said. You've tried telling him that you're unhappy, and it hasn't worked. If you think you can, be direct about that. Tell the DM that you really want to stay in the group, but you're not having fun and you don't enjoy playing, and lay out why. As much as possible, do it in an non-confrontational way, but do it.

If that fails, and you absolutely can't quit, there's an obvious choice: give up on effectiveness in favour of absurdity.

Pick some extremely weird gimmick, one that is absolutely not mechanically great, and just lean into it. A circus clown monk who pantses his opponents. A bard who is obsessed with gathering the best recipes from around the world. A cleric of the god of art who does everything to find new pigments for beautiful portraits.

Whatever you build, the DM is going to design an answer for it, so build things that can't be answered because they're not mechanically sound. Be really great at things that are fun, but wildly unoptimal. Stack bonuses to be able to goof off in combat instead of dealing with the bad guy. When the storyline intrudes, let it carry you along to the next place you can be a wild and weird guy.

denthor
2020-05-16, 04:00 PM
So I am stuck in an awkward social situation, and I am turning to a bunch of random strangers on the internet for 2 reasons. 1. Good to have a place to vent, and 2. You guys have a lot of experiences in a lot of different situations and while I am probably best positioned to make the decision I would love other perspectives.

So I am a big fan of D&D since 3.5. I taught all my friends how to play, they were great DMs, we had years of fun. Then I moved to a new state, new job, new people. I found that the group of friends I fell into were huge D&D fans but didn't have as much experience and really only played with the same DM. They have played a lot and for a few years but still at the stage where they aren't entirely sure what their classes do until they level up and read the rules. (ALL GOOD!!! Love new players).

But the DM is a newer DM. He railroads worse than people who play Ticket to Ride. The more thought and agency you put into your character the more he will railroad you and even take away your character agency. He likes to design his encounters to counter the party. He has chosen fights where multiple characters have been sidelined because they have no answer for his creatures. No big deal! that happens.... but there is one thing for your character not being prepared, and a totally different thing when your DM asks you for your character sheet, sees what you can do and then plans to subvert it every week.

In short, we have played for months, the sessions just aren't fun and usually unenjoyable for me. But these are our very good friends and I honestly really like the DM as a person, he's just a terrible DM. Leaving the party would cause real life drama. My recommendations on ways that I could have more enjoyment have been seen as just complaining (despite desperately trying not to come across that way).

I don't see any way out but to suck it up, sit at the table every week for the next year or so, and just grin and bear it. The hard part is I am very busy and the hours I spend sitting at his table are the only DnD hours I can muster. So I can't go find a player group I really enjoy because I can't afford two DnD sessions a week (I work 60 hours and have a wife and 3 kids [one is 9 months old]). Especially since my wife plays with us at this table. She isn't having fun either but she just likes to sit around the table with her friends and that's all that really matters to her.

I mean, honestly, the whole table is kind of okay with just going along with whatever the DM wants and regardless of right, wrong, bad, or good, that's this table's unspoken social contract and I feel it would be wrong of me to try and change the whole dynamic just so I could have more fun (Rule of the many).

I don't see a way out but I would love for some more perspectives! If you need more details ask away!

P.S.
In lasts night's encounter he had our party ambushed by a kobold. My wife objected that as the revised ranger (a UA the DM recommended she play) she remains alert to danger after traveling an hour. The Dm begrudgingly let her roll to see if she noticed anything. She gets a natural 20. The DM says "well this doesn't seem dangerous so your character would just let it happen". My wife shrugs and says "okay sure". I flick a fire bolt at the thing to scare it away. The Kobold then counter-spells my fire-bolt and reveals he had a wish scroll and began laughing manically. I say I use misty step to get behind him. The DM has us roll initiative, I get a 21. He says I go first. I teleport behind him, then the Kobold interrupts my turn with a legendary action as a reaction and casts the wish scroll. He has my character and the kobold disappear. The cleric casts Augury to inquire about my fate and the DM replies "you get 'Woe'... this isn't going to end well for him". He then ends the session.

I didn't rules lawyer him, I didn't complain, I just watched this unfold and then thanked him for the session and we ended the night. This is standard stuff for him. His story is all that really matters, not us players. Based on the history with him, I am expecting to be punished.... *telling myself* "Grin and bear it..."


Ok read this on Facebook as well. Did not comment there. Here though.

Couple of things wrong. Kobold with wish.

Your best bet is to DM yourself. Learn his playstyle and avoid encounters. This one likes to over power the group.

Roll a new character learn and change your reactions. Also he appears to want to see if your a murdererhobo.

Segev
2020-05-16, 04:36 PM
I cannot emphasize enough that any "teach him a lesson" play is a bad idea. I apologize if I am misreading anybody as suggesting that who isn't, but I feel like I'm seeing that in here.

What I recommend, if you MUST stay in the game and cannot find any way to get him to adjust his play-style, is not to play something disruptive, but play something cooperative. Don't invest in your characters; if something happens to them, let it go. If you need a new one, don't put a lot of thought and effort into it. Just grab things, if not at random, then at least without too much thought. Take advice and run with it; don't bother questioning or debating, because you don't need to care. Use your abilities, but if he says they don't work, or makes a pronouncement, just accept it.

Focus on hanging out with your friends, and let him tell his story.


Note, this is only advice for what to do if you absolutely can't convince yourself to leave and he won't listen to suggestions about how to play the game. Do not be passive aggressive about it, either. Try stuff, and if he shuts it down, accept it. If he says something happens, say "okay" and roll with it.

FabulousFizban
2020-05-17, 04:27 AM
I'll run a game for you. I am a great DM.

Cry Havoc
2020-05-17, 12:26 PM
In lasts night's encounter he had our party ambushed by a kobold. My wife objected that as the revised ranger (a UA the DM recommended she play) she remains alert to danger after traveling an hour. The Dm begrudgingly let her roll to see if she noticed anything. She gets a natural 20. The DM says "well this doesn't seem dangerous so your character would just let it happen".

She doesnt have to roll for ****. She just cant be surprised.

Also; that would be the point I would stop playing in the campaign.


I flick a fire bolt at the thing to scare it away. The Kobold then counter-spells my fire-bolt and reveals he had a wish scroll and began laughing manically. I say I use misty step to get behind him. The DM has us roll initiative, I get a 21.

Your DM doesnt know the rules. The initiative part should have happened at the start of that sentence, before the fire bolt, counter spell and misty step were cast.


He says I go first. I teleport behind him, then the Kobold interrupts my turn with a legendary action as a reaction and casts the wish scroll.

Wut? Thats... not how Legendary actions work.

Speak to your DM. If that doesnt work, quit the campaign.

Composer99
2020-05-17, 11:37 PM
I have to echo the suggestion that if trying to communicate with the DM hasn't worked and that if you feel that quitting the game isn't an option, you pretty much have to either find a way to take over the game yourself, or find a way to enjoy yourself at game sessions that may or may not actually have anything to do with the game itself.

Tvtyrant
2020-05-18, 02:14 PM
If the DM and everyone else is having fun, you are the one who should be leaving. "Hey I don't feel up to playing D&D for a while" is a perfectly valid answer to why you are leaving, at worst "I don't jive with the groups current approach." There are plenty of activities you can be doing with them without D&D.