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Nifft
2020-05-16, 01:44 PM
This seems to have gotten positive attention (over here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24498951&postcount=2)) so I'm posting it in its own thread, where it's easier to find:

Counterspells

It is possible to cast any spell as a counterspell. By doing so, you are using the spell’s energy to disrupt the casting of the same spell by another character. Counterspelling works even if one spell is divine and the other arcane.

How Counterspells Work - When you perceive a spell being cast, make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + the spell’s level). This check is a free action. If the check succeeds, you correctly identify the opponent’s spell and can attempt to counter it. If the check fails, you can’t do either of these things.

To counterspell, you must then cast the appropriate spell as an Immediate action. As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself. If you are able to cast the same spell and you have it prepared (if you prepare spells), you cast it, altering it slightly to create a counterspell effect. If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results.

Counterspelling Metamagic Spells - Metamagic feats are not taken into account when determining whether a spell can be countered

Specific Exceptions - Some spells specifically counter each other, especially when they have diametrically opposed effects. Spontaneous spellcasters like Sorcerers and Favored Souls can counterspell with any spell known of the same level and school.

Dispel Magic - This spell can counter itself, but isn't generally able to counter other spells.



Notable changes from the Core rules are in green.

Author's Notes:
- Action type. No more using the Ready action. Casters can deplete their resources more efficiently, while not reducing the contributions of non-casters!
- Prepared casters are rewarded for preparing to counter a specific enemy's favorite spells.
- Sorcerers have a reason to exist, and maybe Favored Souls too (but I'm less confident of the latter).
- If your BBEG is a spellcaster, put it behind some cover, or obfuscate its actions some other way. Dragging the Wizard out from behind the curtain is a step towards victory, just like in that Oz movie.

rferries
2020-05-16, 02:47 PM
Bravo! :smallsmile:

Elves
2020-05-16, 07:18 PM
Why remove the counterspell ability of Dispel Magic? Seems orthogonal to the fix.

Nifft
2020-05-17, 12:25 PM
Bravo! :smallsmile:

Thanks!


Why remove the counterspell ability of Dispel Magic? Seems orthogonal to the fix.

Dispel Magic is good enough without that capability.

Removing the Readied Action cost of counterspelling would have made Dispel Magic even better, and its starting point was already being a top spell choice.

(It's not orthogonal from a balance perspective.)

Elves
2020-05-17, 01:04 PM
Dispel Magic is already a fundamental part of the kit. What's the issue with letting its counterspell function become competitive with its other functions? This would also let you remove the new effect for spontaneous casters, which seems a little finicky. That brings you back to about the same place, which is that casters, whether prepared or spont, who really like to counterspell will take Improved Counterspell for the no-check dispel and the rest can make do with Dispel Magic.

Nifft
2020-05-17, 08:51 PM
Dispel Magic is already a fundamental part of the kit. What's the issue with letting its counterspell function become competitive with its other functions? This would also let you remove the new effect for spontaneous casters, which seems a little finicky. That brings you back to about the same place, which is that casters, whether prepared or spont, who really like to counterspell will take Improved Counterspell for the no-check dispel and the rest can make do with Dispel Magic.

Removing the perk for spontaneous casters would be a nerf for classes which don't need a nerf.

Retaining the perk for dispel magic would be a buff to a spell which doesn't need a buff.

Thanks for trying to help, but your arguments aren't relevant to the issues I see.

Elves
2020-05-17, 09:46 PM
Removing the perk for spontaneous casters would be a nerf for classes which don't need a nerf.
The way it is now adds a significant incentive to have your spells known for each level be of different schools, which seems like an unnecessary new pressure to put on classes whose spells known slots are already competitive. In gameplay, it also seems like it will tend to slow things down unless you have the schools of every spell in the game memorized. The gameplay inequality with prepared casters also means that you'll see spontaneous casters use counterspelling a lot more and I don't really see why that should be the case. And it makes Improved Counterspell worse for sponts than prepared. These are the things that do leap out and sway me toward just letting Dispel Magic keep that counterspell functionality if I were to use this rule ingame. YMMV.

edit: Though it may be that Dispel Magic should be some sort of inbuilt functionality instead of a spell in any case, since it's such a staple ability.



Thanks for trying to help, but your arguments aren't relevant to the issues I see.
The basic issue with counterspelling is that the readied action makes it bad. Making it an immediate action fixes that. It makes the counterspell function of dispel magic better, but only in the same way that it makes all counterspelling better, so what's the difference?


Is your intent to not have an Improved Counterspell feat? Because under these rules, that feat does seem like it would lead to lockdown being too strong. But if that feat no longer exists, I'd say it's even more important to let Dispel Magic counterspell.

Nifft
2020-05-19, 08:43 PM
The way it is now adds a significant incentive to have your spells known for each level be of different schools, which seems like an unnecessary new pressure to put on classes whose spells known slots are already competitive. Counterspelling isn't such a great tactic that it's going to overwhelm anyone's spell choices.


The basic issue with counterspelling is that the readied action makes it bad. Making it an immediate action fixes that. It makes the counterspell function of dispel magic better, but only in the same way that it makes all counterspelling better, so what's the difference? There's already a level 4 spell which functionally emulates Immediate action counterspelling.

You've never heard of it because even usable counterspelling is not any kind of a dominant tactic.

But even though it's not overpowered at level 4, I will not add the value of a level 4 spell to a level 3 spell which is already overwhelmingly popular, and which is frankly strong enough to justify its popularity. Notably the level 4 spell does not do all the other things which Dispel Magic does, so your suggestion would be strictly better than a level 4 spell, yet available at level 3.

Your idea is imbalanced, and it will not be used, but seriously thanks for trying to help.

Elves
2020-05-19, 09:16 PM
Didn't see you answer, what are you thinking for Improved Counterspell?

>so your suggestion would be strictly better than a level 4 spell, yet available at level 3.
Ok, but as you say, that spell, at level 4, is underpowered.

You could downlevel it, but if you're going to do that, why not just condense it with Dispel Magic?

Nifft
2020-05-19, 09:30 PM
Didn't see you answer, what are you thinking for Improved Counterspell? I don't have a problem with the feat as-is.

It just makes a prepared caster more like a houserule'd Sorcerer, which isn't a problem.


>so your suggestion would be strictly better than a level 4 spell, yet available at level 3.
Ok, but as you say, that spell, at level 4, is underpowered.

You could downlevel it, but if you're going to do that, why not just condense it with Dispel Magic?
Reducing that level 4 spell to 3rd level might be viable, if I should choose to incorporate it into my games. There's no particular need for it, though.

Adding that spell's benefit to Dispel Magic is not a good idea, for all the reasons I've outlined above.

Elves
2020-05-20, 12:13 AM
Adding that spell's benefit to Dispel Magic is not a good idea, for all the reasons I've outlined above.

But it's not actually buffing dispel magic. It's buffing all counterspells, and dispel magic gets buffed as an equal consequence. The fact that the rule change makes an existing underused spell redundant doesn't change that. The old underused spell was only balanced as a 4th level slot under the old counterspell rules; under the new rules it's much less valuable.

rferries
2020-05-20, 09:01 AM
What's the 4th-level spell you guys are referring to?

Nifft
2020-05-20, 02:16 PM
What's the 4th-level spell you guys are referring to?

Stifle Spell, from the PHB2.

It forces a Concentration check rather than actually using the Counterspell mechanics, which is why it's a functional emulation of Immediate counterspelling rather than an example of it.

rferries
2020-05-22, 07:33 PM
Stifle Spell, from the PHB2.

It forces a Concentration check rather than actually using the Counterspell mechanics, which is why it's a functional emulation of Immediate counterspelling rather than an example of it.

Many thanks! :)