Burn it with fire! A viable strategy?

[Asisreo1]

So, I've been looking at Oil and Alchemist's fire. I realized that both Oil and Alchemist fire is treated as ranged improvised weapons and improvised weapons add the ability score to damage.

So from my understanding is that if you take an attack to douse a creature in oil for 1d4+str and throwing alchemists fire does 2d4+str+5 first turn and subsequent turns does 1d4+5 for free until the enemy uses an action to extinguish the flames.

Does this strategy seem viable? It take 2 turns to set up at level 1, a level 5 fighter can take 1 turn to do it, but will it be worth it to constantly do 1d4+5 damage for free each round afterwards?

[LudicSavant]

So, I've been looking at Oil and Alchemist's fire. I realized that both Oil and Alchemist fire is treated as ranged improvised weapons and improvised weapons add the ability score to damage.

So from my understanding is that if you take an attack to douse a creature in oil for 1d4+str and throwing alchemists fire does 2d4+str+5 first turn and subsequent turns does 1d4+5 for free until the enemy uses an action to extinguish the flames.

Does this strategy seem viable? It take 2 turns to set up at level 1, a level 5 fighter can take 1 turn to do it, but will it be worth it to constantly do 1d4+5 damage for free each round afterwards?

If you care what Crawford has to say on the matter, he says Alchemist's Fire is d4+Dex every turn, and explains his ruling in a series of posts here: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/13/does-alchemists-fire-on-hit-adds-dex-modifier-to-damage/

The tricky thing about all the alchemical weapons is that they don't use your Proficiency bonus unless you take the Tavern Brawler feat. And they burn money to use. So there's some investment there, but otherwise yeah you can do ongoing damage.

My favorite use for oil is to actually the use where you put it on the ground. If you have abilities that can push, drag, or hold people in position on the map, then smearing the oil is something you can have an unseen servant or familiar do, and the damage is guaranteed... no save, no nothing. So I'll do something like have the familiar drop oil, then light it up with Create Bonfire, and then have the grappler or the repelling eldritch blaster or the Open Palm Monk or whoever knock people into it.

[Mr Adventurer]

So, I've been looking at Oil and Alchemist's fire. I realized that both Oil and Alchemist fire is treated as ranged improvised weapons and improvised weapons add the ability score to damage.

So from my understanding is that if you take an attack to douse a creature in oil for 1d4+str and throwing alchemists fire does 2d4+str+5 first turn and subsequent turns does 1d4+5 for free until the enemy uses an action to extinguish the flames.

Does this strategy seem viable? It take 2 turns to set up at level 1, a level 5 fighter can take 1 turn to do it, but will it be worth it to constantly do 1d4+5 damage for free each round afterwards?

I would say that the way these items are written is pretty clearly meant to replace the normal effects of attacking with an improvised weapon, i.e. you don't deal 1d4+Dex bludgeoning damage just for hitting a target with an oil flask. (Edit: though maybe not, see below)

I've also asked the question here in the past on whether the bonus damage from oil is per every fire attack or just the first; the answer I was given was that the bonus fire damage from oil is only the first time the target takes fire damage.

Alchemist Fire also deals no damage when you hit with it (i.e. not 1d4), only at the start of the enemy's turn.

Finally, beware the action economy: a level 5 character with Extra Attack will be able to throw two improvised weapons as their action, yes, but they'll need to either have started their turn holding one in each hand, or will end their turn without anything in their hands, thanks to only one free Use an Object to draw weapons.


If you care what Crawford has to say on the matter, he says Alchemist's Fire is d4+Dex every turn, and explains his ruling in a series of posts here: https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/04/13/does-alchemists-fire-on-hit-adds-dex-modifier-to-damage/



This is very relevant to my interests, thank you. My initial feeling would have been that Dex is not added to AF damage because, as I say, it's rules replace the normal weapon rules. I'll read this.

Edit: so, according to this, as far as I can tell a Rogue is absolute murder with Alchemist Fire if the conditions are right: they get to add Sneak Attack. Every round that the fire burns?

[JackPhoenix]

Finally, beware the action economy: a level 5 character with Extra Attack will be able to throw two improvised weapons as their action, yes, but they'll need to either have started their turn holding one in each hand, or will end their turn without anything in their hands, thanks to only one free Use an Object to draw weapons.

They would not. Throwing a flask of oil/whatever is an action in itself (i.e. Use an Object action), not part of an Attack action. RAW, Thief rogue can throw it twice thanks to their Cunning Action allowing them to Use an Object as bonus action, but that's about it. Well, and Action Surge and Haste can give you extra Use an Object action, but those require limited resource.


This is very relevant to my interests, thank you. My initial feeling would have been that Dex is not added to AF damage because, as I say, it's rules replace the normal weapon rules. I'll read this.

Edit: so, according to this, as far as I can tell a Rogue is absolute murder with Alchemist Fire if the conditions are right: they get to add Sneak Attack. Every round that the fire burns?

Throwing an improvised weapon a ranged attack, but the flask of oil/whatever is not a ranged weapon or a weapon with finesse property, so they wouldn't get to add Sneak Attack even once.

[Mr Adventurer]

They would not. Throwing a flask of oil/whatever is an action in itself (i.e. Use an Object action), not part of an Attack action. RAW, Thief rogue can throw it twice thanks to their Cunning Action allowing them to Use an Object as bonus action, but that's about it. Well, and Action Surge and Haste can give you extra Use an Object action, but those require limited resource.



Throwing an improvised weapon a ranged attack, but the flask of oil/whatever is not a ranged weapon or a weapon with finesse property, so they wouldn't get to add Sneak Attack even once.

Erk, yes. Sorry, I got confused with a house rule we use. Thanks.

Thief Rogue could throw two, then, if they started with them in hand.

I don't understand how Dex modifier applies but Sneak Attack wouldn't. JC says in his tweet: it's a ranged weapon attack. AIUI this is a much-discussed area where the Sage Advice position is that "improvised weapons are weapons when they are used in an attack, and not otherwise".

[JackPhoenix]

I don't understand how Dex modifier applies but Sneak Attack wouldn't. JC says in his tweet: it's a ranged weapon attack. AIUI this is a much-discussed area where the Sage Advice position is that "improvised weapons are weapons when they are used in an attack, and not otherwise".

Dex modifier applies to ranged weapon attacks, unless specific rule says otherwise (i.e. thrown property, which makes the weapon use the same stat it would use in melee, if it's a melee weapon). But you don't need to use ranged weapon to make a ranged weapon attack, unintuitively enough: thrown dagger or javelin is still a melee weapon. There's even such a thing as spell attack with a ranged weapon (Magic Stone shot from a sling). Improvised weapon is a weapon when it is used for an attack, but it's not specifically melee or ranged weapon, which means anything requiring melee or ranged weapon (Improved Divine Smite, fighting styles, 3rd point of Sharpshooter feat or Sneak Attack, for example) doesn't work with them. Whacking someone over a head with a longbow doesn't mean you can use SS's -5/+10 because it's a ranged weapon together with GWM's -5/+10 because it's a melee attack with a heavy weapon, it'll do 1d4+Str, and doesn't count as having any properties, because it's improvised weapon.

[DrKerosene]

Dex modifier applies to ranged weapon attacks, unless specific rule says otherwise (i.e. thrown property, which makes the weapon use the same stat it would use in melee, if it's a melee weapon). But you don't need to use ranged weapon to make a ranged weapon attack, unintuitively enough: thrown dagger or javelin is still a melee weapon. There's even such a thing as spell attack with a ranged weapon (Magic Stone shot from a sling). Improvised weapon is a weapon when it is used for an attack, but it's not specifically melee or ranged weapon, which means anything requiring melee or ranged weapon (Improved Divine Smite, fighting styles, 3rd point of Sharpshooter feat or Sneak Attack, for example) doesn't work with them. Whacking someone over a head with a longbow doesn't mean you can use SS's -5/+10 because it's a ranged weapon together with GWM's -5/+10 because it's a melee attack with a heavy weapon, it'll do 1d4+Str, and doesn't count as having any properties, because it's improvised weapon.

Why wouldn’t such an improvised weapon need to have the Range property, or the Finesse property, to use your Dexterity modifier? If the Thrown property would be needed. I figured the default modifier to add is Strength (if anything).

[JackPhoenix]

Why wouldn’t such an improvised weapon need to have the Range property, or the Finesse property, to use your Dexterity modifier? If the Thrown property would be needed. I figured the default modifier to add is Strength (if anything).

Per the combat chapter, "The ability modifier used for a melee weapon attack is Strength, and the ability modifier used for a ranged weapon attack is Dexterity. Weapons that have the finesse or thrown property break this rule. Some spells also require an attack roll. The ability modifier used for a spell attack depends on the spellcasting ability of the spellcaster."

If you throw a javelin, you'll use your Str modifier, due to how thrown property ("If a weapon has the thrown property, you can throw the weapon to make a ranged attack. If the weapon is a melee weapon, you use the same ability modifier for that attack roll and damage roll that you would use for a melee attack with the weapon.") works. However, if you throw a longsword, you'll use your Dex modifier, as it lacks the thrown property (and it's used as improvised weapon, just like alchemical stuff).

[Mr Adventurer]

Dex modifier applies to ranged weapon attacks, unless specific rule says otherwise (i.e. thrown property, which makes the weapon use the same stat it would use in melee, if it's a melee weapon). But you don't need to use ranged weapon to make a ranged weapon attack, unintuitively enough: thrown dagger or javelin is still a melee weapon. There's even such a thing as spell attack with a ranged weapon (Magic Stone shot from a sling). Improvised weapon is a weapon when it is used for an attack, but it's not specifically melee or ranged weapon, which means anything requiring melee or ranged weapon (Improved Divine Smite, fighting styles, 3rd point of Sharpshooter feat or Sneak Attack, for example) doesn't work with them. Whacking someone over a head with a longbow doesn't mean you can use SS's -5/+10 because it's a ranged weapon together with GWM's -5/+10 because it's a melee attack with a heavy weapon, it'll do 1d4+Str, and doesn't count as having any properties, because it's improvised weapon.

The implication is that there are three categories of weapon: ranged, melee, and improvised. Plus spells. And three categories of attack: ranged, melee, and spell. And they can be paired up in different ways.

So a dagger is a melee weapon.
It can be used to make a ranged attack.
It has the Thrown property so you use the ability score you use to make melee attacks, rather than automatically using Dexterity for a ranged attack.
It has the Finesse property so you can choose Dexterity or Strength.

A bow is a ranged weapon.
If you use it to make a melee attack, it is instead as an improvised weapon.
So a melee attack with a bow is a melee attack with an improvised weapon.

Alchemist Fire is already an improvised weapon.
You can make a ranged attack with it.
It uses Dexterity because that's the default rule for ranged attacks (there isn't a default rule for ability score to use for ranged weapons, only attacks).

The rules are not very clear about this.

[JackPhoenix]

The rules are not very clear about this.

The main confusion comes from the fact that they've decided to call melee/ranged weapon attack a weapon attack, even if no weapon is involved. If they've called it pretty much anything else... physical attack, martial attack, whatever.... there would be less confusion about things like ranged weapon attack with a melee weapon. Thrown dagger works with the first 2 points of Sharpshooter (is's a ranged weapon attack), but not the third (it's not a ranged weapon), while Magic Stone thrown from a sling works with the third one (it's an attack with a ranged weapon), but not the first two (it's a spell attack).

And there are also natural weapons. And unarmed strikes, which are not a weapon (not even natural weapons, unless they specifically are... Aarakocra talons are 1d4 unarmed strike, but NOT natural weapon, every other PC race with natural weapon specifies it can be used to make unarmed strikes), but are used to make melee weapon attacks.

[Mr Adventurer]

I went to look up unarmed, because I remembered seeing it in my PHB. It is listed in the table of simple weapons.

That section also says "every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged", so actually there's no third classification of "improvised"?

[JackPhoenix]

I went to look up unarmed, because I remembered seeing it in my PHB. It is listed in the table of simple weapons.

You have 1st printing PHB, then. It was removed in the first errata.


That section also says "every weapon is classified as either melee or ranged", so actually there's no third classification of "improvised"?

That section talks about the weapon table. Improvised weapons are not on that table, because they are not weapons. Acid/Alchemist's Fire/Holy Water/Oil is called improvised weapon, but not improvised ranged weapon, in its own section separated from the weapon table, which means they are not ranged weapons. Compare it to natural weapons like tabaxi claws, which are specified to be natural melee weapons.

[Mr Adventurer]

Uuurrrgghh

[Chronos]

Improvised weapons are not weapons, except while they're being used as weapons. At that time, they are. And so they must fall under "all weapons are melee or ranged", during that time.

Yeah, it's a mess.