If the Order fails and the world is destroyed, what happens to the Blood Oath?

[137beth]

In strip 1047 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1047.html), Eugene tells Roy, should the gods destroy the world, it will also kill Xykon and fulfill the Blood Oath. Roy seemingly agrees (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1048.html) with that assumption on the next page (while disagreeing with Eugene on the appropriate response), although it is possible Roy doesn't actually believe it and is just saying what he thinks will convince Eugene to leave him alone.

Later, however, both Hilgya (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1171.html) and Durkon (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1181.html) seemingly believe (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1185.html) that Hilgya could escape the end of the world by Plane Shifting.

It's possible none of those characters actually know whether they could survive the end of the world, since they don't know how long it takes the gods to destroy the world, nor do they know if there will be any obvious signs that they should leave immediately.

Since Xykon presumably has access to more magic than Hilgya, could he escape the world's destruction by hiding in his Astral Plane fortress? If so, it seems likely Eugene could end up stuck on the clouds for a long time.

And what about Julia? She isn't directly fighting Xykon the way Roy is, but she is offering what little help she can to the Order. Do y'all think she'd get in, or would she be stuck like her father?

[dps]

Well, to answer the last question first, we know the blood oath wouldn't have kept Roy out, so there's no reason it should keep Julia from the appropriate afterlife for her, either.

[Emanick]

Well, to answer the last question first, we know the blood oath wouldn't have kept Roy out, so there's no reason it should keep Julia from the appropriate afterlife for her, either.

It didn’t keep Roy out because Roy died trying to fulfill the Blood Oath. Julia may or may not be treated as trying to do so, depending on whether she’s able to persuasively argue that giving Roy advice and learning magic counts as “trying.” (Also, the True Neutral afterlife may not be as strict as the Lawful Good one.)

Unless I’m remembering wrong, it’s also possible that the Blood Oath is only binding on the “next in line” in the family, and that Julia isn’t currently being bound by it. Eugene does tell Roy in the afterlife that now that he is dead, the Oath “will pass to Julia.”

[Roland Itiative]

It didn’t keep Roy out because Roy died trying to fulfill the Blood Oath.
Not quite. The fact Roy died trying to fullfil the Oath helped him because it was a Lawful act, the Deva was just judging if he was Lawful and Good. The implication from the whole conversation seems to be that the Oath is only really keeping Eugene himself from getting to the Afterlife. Any of his descendants that refuse the Oath may be refused in a Lawful plane (assuming they haven't done enough Lawful acts to make this one thing irrelevant, Roy's case was kind of a mess in respects to this), but they aren't being kept out from the Afterlife in general, they may just be knocked to a Neutral or Chaotic plane instead. Which, in Julia's case, wouldn't really make much of a difference, since she's self-proclaimed True Neutral anyways.

Roy and Eugene both think the Oath will bind Roy as well, but in truth, it really doesn't, and the Deva promptly shuts Eugene down when he tries to say it should.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

I figure that after the world has ended a decent god would tie up all loose ends. Yes, Xykon could escape to his fortress and stay alive there for a few more thousand years, but he is not going to make it through the ages upon ages it will take the Snarl to calm down. He may not technically need anything that can run out to survive, but I suspect in the end even the magic that keeps him alive eventually fails after the world is came from has disappeared. Plus he's made of strands of reality, which the gods are going to reweave. If creatures could easily survive until the next world there'd be more characters who don't fit the stick figure fantasy parody mold that is specifically this world's theme. It would also be pretty unreasonable to, under these circumstances, expect anyone to go have some children to go adventure and destroy Xykon, with the whole world not being there anymore and the gods needing to conserve power and such. The same goes for pretty much any other quest oathspirits might have outstanding.

More importantly, most oathspirits will have no descendants left standing. Maybe if say Hilgya's father is an oathspirit wanting her to kill Xykon and both she and Xykon do indeed make it to the astral plane while still counting as alive/not completely dead, that might be a reason to wait. But assuming all heirs are dead? It's a closed case, one way or another. So, the reasonable thing to do is to just process final judgement on those closed cases. Julia never really got a chance to fix the oath, that was still Roy's job. Odds are she gets the benefit of the doubt and just gets her deserved true neutral afterlife. Eugene? Well, I don't know. He might get in, he might be cast into oblivion, he might end up in some super weird afterlife for cases like his, sort of an endless plane of not belonging. But there's no sense in letting him wait around until one of his heirs fixes everything, because there are no more heirs and in the grand scheme of things there will soon be nothing left to fix.

[hamishspence]

Not quite. The fact Roy died trying to fullfil the Oath helped him because it was a Lawful act, the Deva was just judging if he was Lawful and Good. The implication from the whole conversation seems to be that the Oath is only really keeping Eugene himself from getting to the Afterlife.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0491.html

IMO she doesn't directly contradict "Now, I know the oath binds my kids too."


And, as written, the Oath wasn't about keeping Lawful people making it out of the afterlife - it was about keeping people in general who make it and don't fulfil it, out of the afterlife. The point is that the person "will not rest until the oath is fulfilled".

I'd speculate that if Eugene had died trying and failing to fulfil it, he'd have gotten in to whatever afterlife he chose despite the failure.



If Eugene had been Chaotic, and acted exactly the same way, the guardians of the relevant Chaotic afterlife would have refused to let him in - and would have let him in if he'd "died trying".

[snowblizz]

If Eugene had been Chaotic, and acted exactly the same way, the guardians of the relevant Chaotic afterlife would have refused to let him in - and would have let him in if he'd "died trying".

I'd disagree. The Chaotic afterlife should refuse entry on the grounds of "taking a binding oath of revenge? Doesn't seem chaotic to us. Have you tried Lawful?". IMO.

Not actually following through might well be a point in favour of. "You took a silly oath you upheld for awhile, but then realsied it was daft and did something more productive? Sounds chaotic to us. In you go Sir!".


Ultimately, how much of what we see around is actually part of "creation"? I'm not convinced anything off the material plane will survive the unmaking whether you are present or not. The elemental planes etc, only make sense if "creation" is a self-aware fantasy parody. Hence I suspect even the astral palne is on the chopppig block if the threads of reality are unwound.

[Fyraltari]

I'd disagree. The Chaotic afterlife should refuse entry on the grounds of "taking a binding oath of revenge? Doesn't seem chaotic to us. Have you tried Lawful?". IMO.

Not actually following through might well be a point in favour of. "You took a silly oath you upheld for awhile, but then realsied it was daft and did something more productive? Sounds chaotic to us. In you go Sir!".


Ultimately, how much of what we see around is actually part of "creation"? I'm not convinced anything off the material plane will survive the unmaking whether you are present or not. The elemental planes etc, only make sense if "creation" is a self-aware fantasy parody. Hence I suspect even the astral palne is on the chopppig block if the threads of reality are unwound.

But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. It’s a magic oath, a geas. That’s like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.

Also we know for a fact that the Astral Plane is safe because that’s where the gods go hide whenever the Snarl goes a-roaming. Also the Giant confirmed the Snarl is incapable of planar travel under its own power which is why it is trapped inside its prison in the first place.

[Peelee]

But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. It’s a magic oath, a geas. That’s like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.

[furiously jots down notes in "silly campaign ideas" notebook]

[Darth Paul]

[furiously jots down notes in "silly campaign ideas" notebook]

You've got one as well, eh?

I've always wanted to try a "cavemen vs. astronauts" campaign, basically to see if Fred was right (in Joss Whedon's Angel). "Cavemen win, of course the cavemen win."

[LadyEowyn]

Wouldn’t that depend entirely on the setting?

I mean, if you drop the cavemen into the modern day and the astronauts have access to current tech, of course the astronauts win.

If you take a couple astronauts who are just walking around doing their shopping on an ordinary day (they don’t spend 100% of the time in space) and drop them in them into the Stone Age, then the cavemen win because the astronauts don’t have basic knowledge like “identifying which plants aren’t poisonous” (unless they happen to be into botany on the side) or “hunting/trapping animals using stone and bone tools”.

Is there something I’m missing about the concept?

Sorry if this is thread-derailing.

[The MunchKING]

I thought the concept was more Gladiatorial Combat. In which case the Astronauts, being military dudes in good health by modern standards would have a pretty solid advantage.

[Fyraltari]

I thought the concept was more Gladiatorial Combat. In which case the Astronauts, being military dudes in good health by modern standards would have a pretty solid advantage.

Cavemen* were pretty tough, though. And very much more used to death (both of their own and by their own hands) than modern army dudes. Of course martial arts weren’t invented and neither were combat doctrine so it really depends on the individuals, the tools/weapons at their disposal and the arena.


Which is a terribly imprecise term. Homo ergaster? neanderthalensis? Early sapiens? Modern sapiens?

[Resileaf]

But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. It’s a magic oath, a geas. That’s like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.


Not only is it a magic oath, but being chaotic or lawful isn't about keeping or not keeping oaths. It's about your respect for the rules in place or your personal code of conduct, or your viewpoint of law vs anarchy, or freedom, or a whole bunch of stuff. Even a chaotic person can make promises. Hell, you could even consider that a true vow from a chaotic person is extremely precious because it's something that is really close to their heart. Doesn't mean that they'll keep the vow forever (circumstances depending) but it should be taken as seriously as a vow from a lawful person.

[snowblizz]

But the Blood Oath is not a silly oath. It’s a magic oath, a geas. That’s like saying that if Eugene was soul-trapped he could still go to a chaotic afterlife because it would be lawful to comply with the interdiction of the spell.
But we clearly see that the Deva seems to have jurisdiction over the "magic oath", she says "it's not a problem for us" in case of Roy and lets him in. Eugene protest and insists magic binds Roy as well, and the Deva explains why they let Roy in but not him. But the key is IMO that it's the powers that be that are making this call, not being bound by some cosmic unknowable diffuse concept of "magic". The Deva lets Roy in becasue it is in her power to do so. Which means logically, a Chaotic Deva, whatever that is, should have similar powers over whether you are up to the standards of Chaotic, geas or no. Eugene disagrees, he clearly thinks "magic" in this case should trump. Clearly he is mistaken. Even Roy think so and argues against the pointlessness he believes the interview to be as he assumes he will be bound by magic to not enter.

Again, the unfulfilled Blood Oath for Roy is "not a problem for us" ie LG in the case of Roy. But it is a problem for them in the case of Eugene. Because of his lackadasical approach to fulfilling it. Nowhere does it say they can't let him in becasue the power of magic is greater than them, they are chosing not to because he did not fulfil his Oath. Not even trying to.

[hamishspence]

Again, the unfulfilled Blood Oath for Roy is "not a problem for us" ie LG in the case of Roy. But it is a problem for them in the case of Eugene. Because of his lackadasical approach to fulfilling it. Nowhere does it say they can't let him in becasue the power of magic is greater than them, they are chosing not to because he did not fulfil his Oath. Not even trying to.

I think the point is that "died trying" overrides any magical power the oath may have.

The person swearing the oath, is saying "I will not rest (living or dead) until it is fulfilled".


The Deva lets Roy in becasue it is in her power to do so. Which means logically, a Chaotic Deva, whatever that is, should have similar powers over whether you are up to the standards of Chaotic, geas or no.


And since Devas are a subclass of Angel, and Angels are Any Good

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

I think it's safe to say that Chaotic Good realms will have some Chaotic Good devas.

Ysgard (OOTS's Valhalla is the nearest equivalent) is a Chaotic plane, leaning toward Good:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1136.html

and we know from this that Thor is served by deva. There's a strong implication that Thor's associated with Valhalla.

Presumably, these are Thor's Deva minions:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0353.html

and they are presumably CG.

[Fyraltari]

But we clearly see that the Deva seems to have jurisdiction over the "magic oath", she says "it's not a problem for us" in case of Roy and lets him in. Eugene protest and insists magic binds Roy as well, and the Deva explains why they let Roy in but not him. But the key is IMO that it's the powers that be that are making this call, not being bound by some cosmic unknowable diffuse concept of "magic". The Deva lets Roy in becasue it is in her power to do so. Which means logically, a Chaotic Deva, whatever that is, should have similar powers over whether you are up to the standards of Chaotic, geas or no. Eugene disagrees, he clearly thinks "magic" in this case should trump. Clearly he is mistaken. Even Roy think so and argues against the pointlessness he believes the interview to be as he assumes he will be bound by magic to not enter.

Again, the unfulfilled Blood Oath for Roy is "not a problem for us" ie LG in the case of Roy. But it is a problem for them in the case of Eugene. Because of his lackadasical approach to fulfilling it. Nowhere does it say they can't let him in becasue the power of magic is greater than them, they are chosing not to because he did not fulfil his Oath. Not even trying to.
You choose to read that scene as the Deva overriding the Oath, when it seems to me that the Oath was already content with Roy’s effort and the Deva is simply pointing that fact out.

[Alcore]

Xykon won't make it.

There is clear evidence of his possible survival. The Angels know that his oath is unfulfilled (despite Xykon having epic level anti scrying available) so as long as an oath spirit remains they know they missed someone. Even the least of gods have free access to limited wish. If push comes to shove he won't make it.

Eugene will go to the afterlife, eventually, as even the none godly outsiders get a free mind whipe between worlds. So the slate will be wiped and Xykon will be part of it.

If there was no bloodoath? He might last awhile but boredom and insanity will set in long before the next world.

[NerdyKris]

This is assuming Xykon would even know he needs to escape to the Astral Plane. He doesn't know the truth about the Snarl, the gods' backup plan, or that there's any risk of the world ending. As far as he knows this is just a big monster. So it's questionable he would even realize that existence is being undone.

More importantly, the world shaking is just what Hilgya said, and we know she knew nothing about the Snarl up until Durkon told her about it. So we can't assume that her description of what would happen if the gods unmade existence is how it would play out. It's possible it would be an instantaneous disintegration.

Xykon might not get any warning if the gods unmake the world, and he's not likely to understand the true scope of the Snarl's threat if it attacks him, especially since he thinks his soul will safely go to the Astral Plane and not to the phylactery that's in Redcloak's possession right next to him. (Assuming Redcloak keeps it with him)

[facw]

If the world is destroyed by the gods, Xykon dies and the oath is fulfilled. Perhaps he could escape to another plane, but he'd have to know to do so, and while it hasn't been said explicitly, if the gods go so far as to wipe the memories of the outsiders, I wouldn't be shocked if they hunted down any loose ends of the prime material as well (especially ones like Xykon who won't die on their own). They might not even have to depending on how their destruction of the world works.

And of course of the Snarl unmakes everything, then it really doesn't matter.

As for Julia, isn't she true neutral? It seems unlikely that the blood oath would be a problem for any non-lawful alignment. Also note that it didn't keep Eric out of the lawful good afterlife, though of course the rules may be different for him.

[jwhouk]

Four words.

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."

[Resileaf]

As for Julia, isn't she true neutral? It seems unlikely that the blood oath would be a problem for any non-lawful alignment. Also note that it didn't keep Eric out of the lawful good afterlife, though of course the rules may be different for him.

Eugene was still alive when Eric died in the accident. The Blood Oath only affects his children once he himself passed away.

[dps]

I thought the concept was more Gladiatorial Combat. In which case the Astronauts, being military dudes in good health by modern standards would have a pretty solid advantage.

The first astronauts back in the 1960s were all members of the military, but most of them nowadays are scientists, not soldiers. And even those military guys back in the day were test pilots, not infantrymen, so in unarmed combat or even combat with melee weapons, the cavemen would probably have an edge.

[Peelee]

The first astronauts back in the 1960s were all members of the military, but most of them nowadays are scientists, not soldiers. And even those military guys back in the day were test pilots, not infantrymen, so in unarmed combat or even combat with melee weapons, the cavemen would probably have an edge.

Practically all of the early astronauts had a BS or MS (usually in aerospace engineering), with some like Buzz Aldrin even having a doctorate (Aldrin had an Ph.D in Orbital Mechanics from MIT). Even the early astronauts were all highly educated scientists - they were just also in the military.

This is still largely true today.

[Dion]

What happens to Xykon if he plane shifts to his astral fortress, but the snarl destroys his phylactery?

Also, I’m pretty sure John Glenn had a *lot* of experience points, and a high CON score. He’d probably be a pretty high level and have a ton of HP.

[understatement]

What happens to Xykon if he plane shifts to his astral fortress, but the snarl destroys his phylactery?


He should be fine. He's not affected by the phylactery being destroyed unless he himself is regenerating from it.

[hroþila]

Caveman vs astronaut is not a debate I expected to see. Maybe we can try the classic samurai vs knight next.

[hungrycrow]

I don't think cavemen frequently got into fights. Their experience was more in ambushing or exhausting some wild animal and throwing a spear at it. A modern human with any amount of combat experience, even just something like 'took wrestling in high school'', would probably have an edge.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think cavemen frequently got into fights. Their experience was more in ambushing or exhausting some wild animal and throwing a spear at it. A modern human with any amount of combat experience, even just something like 'took wrestling in high school'', would probably have an edge.

Heh, archeological evidence suggests that it varied a lot from individual culture to indidividual culture, some had little to zero human violence as cause of death while some had so many it looks borderline genocidal.

[Dion]

I’ve read a lot of Conan stories, and I can definitively say that the primitive barbarians of Northern Hyboria are the greatest hand to hand combatants in the history of the universe.

Even the two greatest astronauts of all time, Charlton Heston and Captain Kirk, would be no match against Conan.

[Fyraltari]

I’ve read a lot of Conan stories, and I can definitively say that the primitive barbarians of Northern Hyboria are the greatest hand to hand combatants in the history of the universe.

Even the two greatest astronauts of all time, Charlton Heston and Captain Kirk, would be no match against Conan.

They have nothing to do with cavemen, though.

[Peelee]

They have nothing to do with cavemen, though.

Depends. Did they live in caves?

[Dion]

They have nothing to do with cavemen, though.

I’ll concede that point. But what if we took the most famous caveman of all time, Rachel Welch from One Million Years BC, against the most famous astronaut of all time, Captain James T Kirk of the Starship Enterprise.

What do you suppose is going to happen in a head to head matchup?

[Fyraltari]

Depends. Did they live in caves?
No, they didn't.

I’ll concede that point. But what if we took the most famous caveman of all time, Rachel Welch from One Million Years BC, against the most famous astronaut of all time, Captain James T Kirk of the Starship Enterprise.

What do you suppose is going to happen in a head to head matchup?
Well given that I don't know who the former is and only have a passing knowledge of the slatter I'm going to say... poker night?

[hungrycrow]

Heh, archeological evidence suggests that it varied a lot from individual culture to indidividual culture, some had little to zero human violence as cause of death while some had so many it looks borderline genocidal.

True, but massacring a rival tribe was probably a singular event. Would any particular caveman get into enough fights with other cavemen to actually become good at fighting?

[Fyraltari]

True, but massacring a rival tribe was probably a singular event. Would any particular caveman get into enough fights with other cavemen to actually become good at fighting?

Well, current apes (which is the closest equivalent we have for Homo sapiens ancestors) often get into fights. Agrarian Homo sapiens often get into fights. We have evidence of warfare between pre-agrarien Homo sapiens tribes. So it seems to me that yes, there were fighters among the cavemen as there have been among every single Homo sapiens society ever.

[hungrycrow]

Well, current apes (which is the closest equivalent we have for Homo sapiens ancestors) often get into fights. Agrarian Homo sapiens often get into fights. We have evidence of warfare between pre-agrarien Homo sapiens tribes. So it seems to me that yes, there were fighters among the cavemen as there have been among every single Homo sapiens society ever.

That's a good comparison. You're probably right.

[Dion]

That's a good comparison. You're probably right.

Are we talking about a Hollywood caveman against a Hollywood astronaut?

Or are we talking about the toughest real caveman against the toughest real astronaut?

Or are we talking about an average caveman against an average astronaut?

I’m trying to figure out if we’re imagining 6’3” Charlton Heston, 5’ 9” John Glenn, or a 5’ 4” marine biologist in this hypothetical fight.

[Necris Omega]

Four words.

"Rocks fall, everyone dies."

Only if the Gods are written by Obsidian Entertainment.

[Snails]

Well, to answer the last question first, we know the blood oath wouldn't have kept Roy out, so there's no reason it should keep Julia from the appropriate afterlife for her, either.

I am not convinced the Oath automatically keeps anyone out, including Eugene. Eugene's understanding does not necessarily have to be true. The Deva is not obligated to correct misconceptions. Eugene's attitude about how this plays out might be relevant evidence about Eugene's character and/or a useful learning experience to become more worthy.

Roy's attempt to fulfill the Oath is a great positive to his credit in the Deva's eyes. If Roy took another Lawful path in life, he might get in just fine. The evidence of his behavior and attitude towards the Oath is important because Roy's case is not clear cut -- he uses Chaotic means to fulfill Lawful ends, plus he has a nasty streak. Roy is a good candidate for the Celestial Mountain overall, but the Deva must assess the weaknesses of his case, too.

Eugene has all the issues of Roy, only ten-fold so. His attitude towards the Oath is important, because he also seems to be a Chaotic ends to Lawful means kind of guy. If he had dropped his Oath for some astoundingly Lawful and Good cause, I suspect the Deva might simply allow him directly in. Of course, Eugene would have to grow past his personal flaws revealed by his attitude towards the Oath, or he will just never progress up the Mountain (and, perhaps, his soul would be better off somewhere else).

There is also a Catch-22 here: any soul who failed in such a manner but is actually worthy of entrance, such a soul would refuse entry until at least his son played out his own attempt. In other words, as long as Roy is in the game, Eugene has to be believe it is correct that he is prevented from entering Celestia, or that is evidence against. The Deva is not in the tempting business, so she is not going to play mind games here. Honestly, Eugene does himself no credit with his behavior during his afterlife, but his ultimate fate will probably be determined by his life as a whole. Eventually.

[Fyraltari]

If the Oath isn’t blocking Eugene from the afterlife and the Deva won’t let him in then why wasn’t he sent to another afterlife like Roy could have been?

[Dion]

If the Oath isn’t blocking Eugene from the afterlife and the Deva won’t let him in then why wasn’t he sent to another afterlife like Roy could have been?

You know how some bureaucracy seems to start out well intentioned but then slowly turns into a convoluted and serpentine mess after 20 years?

Maybe they’ve had a few billions of years to build up the bureaucracy and it’s just kind of messed up?

[Peelee]

You know how some bureaucracy seems to start out well intentioned but then slowly turns into a convoluted and serpentine mess after 20 years?

Maybe they’ve had a few billions of years to build up the bureaucracy and it’s just kind of messed up?

IIRC, all beings but the gods get their memories wiped on Snarlification, so it stands to reason they should believe they are first-worlders, and have only been around for a few thousand.

[hungrycrow]

Letting Eugene stew outside instead of sending him on gives him the chance to think about his mistakes and try to rectify them. Of course Eugene will never do that, but Lawful Good Outsiders probably feel obligated to give him the opportunity anyhow.