Mounted Smites: Two for one?

[Nagog]

So I was looking through some of the rules for Mounted Combat, as I'm considering Find Greater Steed as a Magical Secrets for my Lore Bard, but I've discovered an interesting bit in the spell description that may be highly exploitable:

While mounted on it, you can make any spell you cast that targets only you also target the mount.

Does this include Smite spells, who have a target of "Self"? If so, do they register as two separate spells that can each be triggered individually, effectively giving you 2 smites for the price of 1?

[Zhorn]

This one is a little tricky, as it would come down to a few other rulings and how your tables is ruling on them.
I'm unclear on the exact RAW of the matter because of how some of the smites are worded differently, so I'd put this in the "DM fiat" pile.

Question 1: Do you allow mounts from Find Steed and Find Greater Steed to attack as an independent mount?
I'd say yes, as the mount is bonded to you and "allows you to fight as a seamless unit", so by letting your mount act independently, it should still be controllable by the player to take the attack action, not restricted by the same rules as controlled mounts.

Question 2: Do you allow unarmed smites?
This one is part of the distinction between
weapon attack
melee attack
attack with a melee weapon
melee weapon attack
A few of the smites spells are worded differently, and there are some other rulings that tend to hinge on the distinction between each of those types of attacks. The mount is not wielding a melee weapon, but their attacks still class as melee weapon attacks. If you let characters smite unarmed, then your mount can too.

If both of the above conditions are allowed, it should work.

Note: the concentration is still being held by the PC for both smite spell effects, so if one creature hits with the smite and the other doesn't, you'll still have to hold onto that concentration to make use of the other smite.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

You forgot question 3: does the spell target only the caster? And for any of the X Smite spell, the answer is no, unless the caster wants to stab himself. The spell doesn't have a target of self, but a range of self... there's a difference, because you're still targetting another creature: all of the spells specifically call the creature hit a target.

[Zhorn]

You forgot question 3: does the spell target only the caster? And for any of the X Smite spell, the answer is no, unless the caster wants to stab himself. The spell doesn't have a target of self, but a range of self... there's a difference, because you're still targetting another creature: all of the spells specifically call the creature hit a target.
The paladin class abilities target a creature with a weapon attack, but the spells...

Banishing Smite
Range: Self

Blinding Smite
Range: Self

Branding Smite
Range: Self

Searing Smite
Range: Self

Staggering Smite
Range: Self

Thunderous Smite
Range: Self

Wrathful Smite
Range: Self

The spells are casting a buff on yourself; where the buff empowers your next hit with the smite.

[DevilMcam]

It's not a question of targeting but of affecting.

Fireball doesn't target a creature but a space, yet it damages several creatures.
Spiritual guardian have a target of self and have been ruled out of find steed shenanigans by sage advice
Dragon breath is not eligible to be twinned because the breath effect can affect more than a single target

Over the entire duratio of the spell any of the smite spells will affect two creatures : the caster, granting him a buff, and a creature struk by the weapon attack

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

So, when Banishing Smite causes extra damage to the target of the spell, the spellcaster hits someone with a sword and takes damage and gets banished? Man, those spells suck....

5e spells don't have separate target line in their description (though they should), the description tells you who the target is. Spells even can have multiple targets. And in every Smite spell, the target is the creature that's hit with the weapon attack. Just like with Fireball, which targets both a point in space for the origin of the AoE, and every creature caught in the AoE. Or GFB, which targets both the creature hit with the weapon attack, and another adjecent creature. Or Pass without Trace, which has a range of self, but also targets creatures of the caster's choice within 30'.

Relevant SA answer. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/08/03/blinding-smite-and-find-steed-does-the-spell-qualify-for-find-steeds-spell-effect-duplication/)

[Zhorn]

Point taken.
It's a ruling I disagree with, but I'm not enthused about a debate over the semantics of where the casting of a spell ends and where the effect granted by a spell begins.
Designers have given an answer; that's the only answer that matters for the OP.

[Chronos]

With the smite spells, there's a target of the spell, and then there's a target of the eventual attack, which also gets affected by the spell. When you cast the spell, the one and only target is yourself. You can even cast them when there's no other creature around. And so, when you cast the spell, you can share it with your mount. Later, the spell might have an effect on someone else, but that's after you've already cast and shared it.

[Mikal]

You forgot question 3: does the spell target only the caster? And for any of the X Smite spell, the answer is no, unless the caster wants to stab himself. The spell doesn't have a target of self, but a range of self... there's a difference, because you're still targetting another creature: all of the spells specifically call the creature hit a target.

Wrong.

The wording only states that spells that target only the caster also target the steed. That's it.

So when you cast the smite spell, you're targeting yourself so your next successful attack does extra damage and a rider effect.
With find steed, this goes to your mount as well, so THEIR next successful attack does damage extra damage and a rider effect.

That's it. 5e divine smite doesn't say range of self, but targets yourself. You're targeting yourself to provide a buff to your next attack. That's it. That's all. If you want to rule otherwise that's on you and your house rules, but it's not RAW.

But please if you disagree, show me where the smite spells says it has a target of anyone other than self. FYI "hit" is not "target"

[KorvinStarmast]

So I was looking through some of the rules for Mounted Combat, as I'm considering Find Greater Steed as a Magical Secrets for my Lore Bard, but I've discovered an interesting bit in the spell description that may be highly exploitable:
There's a great discussion on that here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/62330/22566) (it's one of the first tricksy questions our group ran into when our Paladin got to 5th level) and the consensus is .. not there. Discuss with your DM.

[JackPhoenix]

Wrong.

The wording only states that spells that target only the caster also target the steed. That's it.

So when you cast the smite spell, you're targeting yourself so your next successful attack does extra damage and a rider effect.
With find steed, this goes to your mount as well, so THEIR next successful attack does damage extra damage and a rider effect.

That's it. 5e divine smite doesn't say range of self, but targets yourself. You're targeting yourself to provide a buff to your next attack. That's it. That's all. If you want to rule otherwise that's on you and your house rules, but it's not RAW.

But please if you disagree, show me where the smite spells says it has a target of anyone other than self. FYI "hit" is not "target"

"5th-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, your weapon crackles with force, and the attack deals an extra 5d10 force damage to the target. Additionally, if this attack reduces the target to 50 hit points or fewer, you banish it. If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the one you're on, the target disappears, returning to its home plane. If the target is native to the plane you're on, the creature vanishes into a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. It remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied."

Emphasis mine.

That's the entire description of Banishing Smite (because it's the first X Smite spell in alphabetical order. I can provide any other Smite spell, if you wish). It's also not Divine Smite, which is not a spell, so it's irrelevant to the discussion (and that one definitely doesn't target the paladin).

Now, maybe I'm blind, but I can't find any mention it targets the caster, all mentions of a target refers to the creature you hit with a weapon attack. It also very clearly says Range: Self. But perhaps your PHB has a different description? If it does, please provide it.

[Zhorn]

To preface the following post; I recognise there is a ruling by the designers on their interpretation, and I accept that for a universal table approach; input from the designers should be taken as the official RAI.

But the ruling is just silly.

I'm not going to assume to talk for other people on this matter, but for me the issue with that ruling comes down to the separation of actions.

The action (bonus action in the case of these spells) used to cast the spell only targets the self. The attack is not a component of casting the spell, unlike something like Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade where the attack is a component of the casting process.

You can cast any of the smite spell and not attack. The spell has still been cast, spell slot consumed. After that bonus action used to cast the smite spell, the casting is over and the spell's effect is now persisting as concentration. At this point of the spell's casting completion, it is only able to affect the one target, the creature it was cast on (the self), and is only buff/enhancement, not at attack.

The attack that delivers the buffed/enhanced hit is not a component of casting the spell, is a distinctly separate action, and shouldn't count as a disqualifier for Find Steed's spell sharing gimmick.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

"5th-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, your weapon crackles with force, and the attack deals an extra 5d10 force damage to the target. Additionally, if this attack reduces the target to 50 hit points or fewer, you banish it. If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the one you're on, the target disappears, returning to its home plane. If the target is native to the plane you're on, the creature vanishes into a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. It remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied."

Emphasis mine.

That's the entire description of Banishing Smite (because it's the first X Smite spell in alphabetical order. I can provide any other Smite spell, if you wish). It's also not Divine Smite, which is not a spell, so it's irrelevant to the discussion (and that one definitely doesn't target the paladin).

Now, maybe I'm blind, but I can't find any mention it targets the caster, all mentions of a target refers to the creature you hit with a weapon attack. It also very clearly says Range: Self. But perhaps your PHB has a different description? If it does, please provide it.

I think the difference is that the one you attack is the target of the attack you make and you are the target of the spell.

In my opinion the target of all the self range spells is always the caster itself. The caster may use is new abilities to target another creatures but it will not be a spell as the spell already been cast.
Same with dragon breath. The caster can only cast it on a creature, the creature does not cast the spell again when he use is action to breathe, he just use an action from his stat page(same as hide, help dash, attack and more).

[LudicSavant]

Fireball doesn't target a creature but a space, yet it damages several creatures.

A few of the relevant rules:


A target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.

For a spell like fireball, the target is the point in space where the ball of fire erupts.
(*snip*)
Once a spell is cast, its effects aren't limited by its range, unless the spell's description says otherwise.


If a spell or other effect deals damage to more than one target at the same time, roll the damage once for all of them. For example, when a wizard casts fireball or a cleric casts flame strike, the spell's damage is rolled once for all creatures caught in the blast.


The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure.


Many spells and other game features create areas of effect, such as the cone and the sphere. If you're not using miniatures or another visual aid, it can sometimes be difficult to determine who's in an area of effect and who isn't. The easiest way to address such uncertainty is to go with your gut and make a call. If you would like more guidance, consider using the Targets in Areas of Effect table. To use the table, imagine which combatants are near one another, and let the table guide you in determining the number of those combatants that are caught in an area of effect. Add or subtract targets based on how bunched up the potential targets are.


For example, if a wizard directs burning hands (a 15-foot cone) at a nearby group of orcs, you could use the table and say that two orcs are targeted (15 + 10 = 1.5, rounded up to 2). Similarly, a sorcerer could launch a lightning bolt (100-foot line) at some ogres and hobgoblins, and you could use the table to say four of the monsters are targeted


The area of effect of a spell, monster ability, or other feature must be translated onto squares or hexes to determine which potential targets are in the area and which aren't

Be careful not to assume that if something says "the target" it means "the only target."

You can find some additional discussion here:
What Counts as a Target for a Spell? (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/152115/what-counts-as-a-target-for-a-spell)

Also, a general principle of 5e elegantly laid out by SevenSidedDie:


D&D 5th edition is not a keyword-driven game; quite the opposite: the designers deliberately avoided writing using keywords where possible in favour of describing the rules in what they dubbed “natural language.”* Lacking the word target is therefore not significant. What is significant is if the spell literally doesn't target you, in the normal meaning of the words.

Does the spell designate a creature as the direct recipient of its effect (i.e., what “targets” means in plain language)? Is that creature you? Then it targets you.


* Ironic that, to convince a readership conditioned to look for keywords, they had to raise the phrase “natural language” to being nearly a keyword itself to indicate that the rules should be read as normal English!

[RSP]

"5th-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
Range: Self
Components: V
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, your weapon crackles with force, and the attack deals an extra 5d10 force damage to the target. Additionally, if this attack reduces the target to 50 hit points or fewer, you banish it. If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the one you're on, the target disappears, returning to its home plane. If the target is native to the plane you're on, the creature vanishes into a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. It remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied."

Emphasis mine.

This can have a valid reading that “the target” referred to in the description is referring to the weapon attack made after the spell is cast. It specifically refers to “the target” of the attack when its first used.

If reading it thusly, the target of the spell can be “self” while the “target” stated in the description is the creature targeted by the described weapon attack.

Essentially, the caster is targeted by the spell, and their weapon crackling with force is the effect of the spell. That crackling force deals damage if the weapon connects on an attack with a creature.

Not saying it’s the only way to read the description, but it is a valid way.

[Chronos]

OK, so if you Enlarge the party fighter, is that targeting enemies?

[chando]

Rule of fun here, for me while DMing is usually more power to the player unless something utterly campaing breaking or used without restraings to trivialize every encounter..

Here is a visual immage:

Immagine She-ra using her sword to smite a foe.
Now imagine she doing it in unissunion with her flying Pegasus-Unicorn, fighting as one in heart and spirit againt the BBEG Bodyguard.
Heavens yeah it will be twice banished! In my table makes for a hell of a story. YMMV

[ImproperJustice]

So if I am following the logic of those opposed, any Paladin spell with a range of self that can effect an external target would not be allowed.
So they would not allow the Mount to receive the blessings of:

Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Divine Favor
All Smite Spells
Locate Object
Aura of Vitality
Crusader’s Mantle
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Locate Creature
Circle of Power
Destructive Wave
Dispel Evil and Good

Looking at the remaining spells on the Paladin list with a target of Self that do not affect anything outside the target, the Paladin can bless their mount with:

That’s not a typo. All of those spells grant a buff that affect something beyond the buffed individual.

[diplomancer]

KISS principle. Ask your DM, abide by his ruling. It's one of the most controversial questions in 5th Edition. I honestly can't see how the smite spells are not shared but things like Haste, Protection from good/evil, Enlarge, Tenser's Transformation, etc. are. But that's the developers RAI.

If you're the DM, same thing; decide as you think more consistent, ask your players to not make a fuss of it; adjust monster's strength up or down if needed.

If playing AL (I never did), I believe that there is a general tendency to just use the stated RAI. If you're a player, plan accordingly.

[ImproperJustice]

KISS principle. Ask your DM, abide by his ruling. It's one of the most controversial questions in 5th Edition. I honestly can't see how the smite spells are not shared but things like Haste, Protection from good/evil, Enlarge, Tenser's Transformation, etc. are. But that's the developers RAI.

If you're the DM, same thing; decide as you think more consistent, ask your players to not make a fuss of it; adjust monster's strength up or down if needed.

If playing AL (I never did), I believe that there is a general tendency to just use the stated RAI. If you're a player, plan accordingly.

Of the spells you used as an example. None appear on the Paladin List.
With the exception of Protection from Good and Evil, which has a range or Touch, which may or may not matter for this discussion.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

So if I am following the logic of those opposed, any Paladin spell with a range of self that can effect an external target would not be allowed.
So they would not allow the Mount to receive the blessings of:

Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Divine Favor
All Smite Spells
Locate Object
Aura of Vitality
Crusader’s Mantle
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Locate Creature
Circle of Power
Destructive Wave
Dispel Evil and Good

Looking at the remaining spells on the Paladin list with a target of Self that do not affect anything outside the target, the Paladin can bless their mount with:

That’s not a typo. All of those spells grant a buff that affect something beyond the buffed individual.
This ia a great list, I will bookmark it.

[BurgerBeast]

This can have a valid reading that “the target” referred to in the description is referring to the weapon attack made after the spell is cast. It specifically refers to “the target” of the attack when its first used.

If reading it thusly, the target of the spell can be “self” while the “target” stated in the description is the creature targeted by the described weapon attack.

Essentially, the caster is targeted by the spell, and their weapon crackling with force is the effect of the spell. That crackling force deals damage if the weapon connects on an attack with a creature.

Not saying it’s the only way to read the description, but it is a valid way.

And the other way to read it is terrible. It’s obviously wrong. So, I’ll say it: you’re right.

The magic of the spell is “on” the caster until the smite is “released.” That’s why only the caster can do the smiting. Because he’s the one who has the effect “on” him.

To claim that the target is the person you strike is ridiculous.

To take this further, why can the caster smite any target he wants after he casts the spell? Why doesn’t he have to declare one “target” and then be restricted to that target?

The other explanation does not stand up to even a minimal amount of scrutiny.

[TIPOT]

So if I am following the logic of those opposed, any Paladin spell with a range of self that can effect an external target would not be allowed.
So they would not allow the Mount to receive the blessings of:

Detect Evil and Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison and Disease
Divine Favor
All Smite Spells
Locate Object
Aura of Vitality
Crusader’s Mantle
Aura of Life
Aura of Purity
Locate Creature
Circle of Power
Destructive Wave
Dispel Evil and Good

Looking at the remaining spells on the Paladin list with a target of Self that do not affect anything outside the target, the Paladin can bless their mount with:

That’s not a typo. All of those spells grant a buff that affect something beyond the buffed individual.

That's because range of self =/= target self unless you seriously think destructive wave targets only yourself?

Most Touch range spells work for the feature anyway.

[Zhorn]

That's because range of self =/= target self unless you seriously think destructive wave targets only yourself?

Destructive Wave is a bad pick to make a point on this (yes it was on ImproperJustice's list, but I'll just chalk that up to a filtering error).
Unlike the smite spells (which is the main thrust of this discussion), Destructive Wave is not a buff on the self, it's a AoE centred on the self (30ft radius is included in the range of the spell).

[diplomancer]

Of the spells you used as an example. None appear on the Paladin List.
With the exception of Protection from Good and Evil, which has a range or Touch, which may or may not matter for this discussion.

Haste is a Vengeance Paladin spell. Duergar, a good race choice for Paladins, have Enlarge. All are possible Bard's magical secrets, as are the find steed spells.

[ImproperJustice]

Haste is a Vengeance Paladin spell. Duergar, a good race choice for Paladins, have Enlarge. All are possible Bard's magical secrets, as are the find steed spells.

Excellent point. So unless you are a specific sub class of Paladin, a specific race choice, or a Bard, this feature of Find Greater Steed may be worthless to Paladins.
Assuming we continue to operate under the belief that spells with a range of self =/= targeting self.

[BurgerBeast]

Of a course a range of self implies that it targets the self.

If you can cast a spell, and it has a target, and the range is self, then you can’t target anything else except the self. No other creature, object, or area in space is within range.

Does it have a target or not?
Is the target in range or not?
Is there any other target within the range of self besides your self?

What are we playing at? (We being the people putting forward that argument - not you.)

[diplomancer]

Excellent point. So unless you are a specific sub class of Paladin, a specific race choice, or a Bard, this feature of Find Greater Steed may be worthless to Paladins.
Assuming we continue to operate under the belief that spells with a range of self =/= targeting self.

As I said, I don't like the interpretation either, I think the smite spells should be shared, as the other examples I mentioned obviously are.

Nevertheless, there ARE Paladin spells that can be shared with your mount on the RAI, but they are mostly touch spells (when the Paladin touches himself, he's the only target of the spell, so it applies; "targets only you" does NOT mean "can only possibly target you"): cure wounds and shield of faith are the ones that come immediately to mind.

[BurgerBeast]

That's because range of self =/= target self unless you seriously think destructive wave targets only yourself?

Most Touch range spells work for the feature anyway.

Destructive wave does target only yourself. The wave then emanates from you (the target) and affects any creature you choose within 30 feet of you (the target).

Can you cast destructive wave on another person? No. You can’t target anyone except for yourself.

[JackPhoenix]

Excellent point. So unless you are a specific sub class of Paladin, a specific race choice, or a Bard, this feature of Find Greater Steed may be worthless to Paladins.
Assuming we continue to operate under the belief that spells with a range of self =/= targeting self.

As diplomancer pointed out, targetting only the caster is not the same as having the range of self. Healing Word has a range of 30', but if a paladin (or a bard with FGS) who somehow got access to it cast it on himself, it will also heal the mount.


Of a course a range of self implies that it targets the self.

If you can cast a spell, and it has a target, and the range is self, then you can’t target anything else except the self. No other creature, object, or area in space is within range.

Does it have a target or not?
Is the target in range or not?
Is there any other target within the range of self besides your self?

What are we playing at? (We being the people putting forward that argument - not you.)

The range tells you exactly that: the distance from the caster from which the effect of the spell can originate. Who or what the spell targets is written in its description. Fireball has a range of 150', yet it can hit a target 160' away from the caster, because its AoE reaches 20' from its point of origin.


Destructive wave does target only yourself. The wave then emanates from you (the target) and affects any creature you choose within 30 feet of you (the target).

Can you cast destructive wave on another person? No. You can’t target anyone except for yourself.

Destructive Wave targets the creatures of caster's choice within its AoE. The caster doesn't target himself.... but he can, for whatever reason... but serves as a point of origin for the AoE.

[ImproperJustice]

Find Greater Steed says:
“While mounted you can make any spell cast that targets only you also affect your mount.”

Spells that have a range of self, have you as the target.
I think a fair argument can be made against the radius oriented self spells.
But all the rest: Self seems to be a valid target for only you.
What happens after seems to be fair by my reading of the rules.

[Chronos]

Y'know, if we read it literally, then no spell could ever be used with this feature, since if it's also affecting your mount, then it's not targeting only you, after all.

[BurgerBeast]

The range tells you exactly that: the distance from the caster from which the effect of the spell can originate.

Right. And that place, creature, or object, where it originates, is the target or targets.


Who or what the spell targets is written in its description.

Correct.


Fireball has a range of 150', yet it can hit a target 160' away from the caster, because its AoE reaches 20' from its point of origin.

Incorrect. The target of fireball is the point in space, chosen by the caster, as the origin of the AOE. The effect of the spell then occurs.

[Edit: I’m not saying that the creature 160’ away can’t be hit. I’m saying that this creature is not a target of the spell. The spell targets a point in space within 150’. Then, an effect emanates from that target. Creatures within the AOE are targets (so to speak) of the effect.]


Destructive Wave targets the creatures of caster's choice within its AoE.

False. Destructive wave targets the caster. The spell effect then takes over, emanating from the target.


The caster doesn't target himself....

Of course he does. He is the only valid target in range.


but he can, for whatever reason... but serves as a point of origin for the AoE.

He is the point of origin of the AOE, because the AOE emanates from the target, similar to fireball. But in the case of destructive wave, the target must be within the range of self (not 150 feet).

Why can’t a fireball originate 400 feet away? Because that point in space is out of range.

Editted: Why can’t the creatures within the AOE of destructive wave, being 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or 30 feet away, be the targets of the spell? Because they’re out of range.

Simple.