Ready action combat question

[Whit]

Have a question on ready action

A party of adventurers are walking on a path. Goblins are hiding and attack with surprise with bow & arrow
Each goblin then use nimble action bonus action to Move and hide again.

The players take a ready action to use range attacks When the goblins come out from hiding with stealth to attack again.

1, Do the adventure get to use reaction to attack first when the goblins come out hiding to attack or 2. after the goblins come out and attack. Or 3. The goblins get to attack and bonus action again to nimble action to retreat before the characters reaction

[stoutstien]

For the sake of fairness, I would say the players would get their readied action attack as soon as they can see the goblins before the goblin attacks as long as the trigger is valid.

[Composer99]

The pertinent part of the rule is:

When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.

So as long as the players are careful to define their trigger appropriately, there's no reason why they can't get scenario #1.

[Whit]

When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger.

Based on the above If the trigger is I will use x weapon to attack when a goblin comes out of hiding

The reaction attack takes place right after the trigger finishes or you can ignore the trigger

So would the trigger finish as soon as it comes out or stops it’s movement or after it has moved and attacked or after it moved attacked and used it’s bonus action

[NaughtyTiger]

the trigger would have to be something like: I attack the goblin as soon as I see it.

The goblin is hidden until it makes the attack.

So the player could attack after the goblin's attack, and before the goblin's bonus action hide.

[Demonslayer666]

the trigger would have to be something like: I attack the goblin as soon as I see it.

The goblin is hidden until it makes the attack.

So the player could attack after the goblin's attack, and before the goblin's bonus action hide.

This is how I would handle it as well, depending on how well the goblins were hidden.

I would imagine the goblins are peeking from behind cover to attack, rather than advancing into the open. I would allow an attack if they stepped into the open before the goblins attack, or if they failed to hide. Any successfully hidden goblin gets to make their attack, then get attacked by the party.

[stoutstien]

If we're talking about ranged attacks on both sides why can't they attack simultaneously?

[BigRedJedi]

If we're talking about ranged attacks on both sides why can't they attack simultaneously?

Because the goblins, mechanically, remain hidden until after their attacks are resolved. If the PC's trigger for a ready action is to "attack a goblin as soon as I can see it," then this condition will be met after the goblin has attacked and is no longer hidden.

Alternately, if the goblin has to move before attacking to be able to attack (due to line of sight or line of effect issues) and would surrender the hidden condition, the PC might get their attack before the goblin makes an attack.

[stoutstien]

Because the goblins, mechanically, remain hidden until after their attacks are resolved. If the PC's trigger for a ready action is to "attack a goblin as soon as I can see it," then this condition will be met after the goblin has attacked and is no longer hidden.

Alternately, if the goblin has to move before attacking to be able to attack (due to line of sight or line of effect issues) and would surrender the hidden condition, the PC might get their attack before the goblin makes an attack.

I could see the reasoning there if the goblins were firing from say thick underbrush but those attacks would probably be less accurate due to that cover working both ways.
The OP scenario specifically has the goblins moving out of cover/hidden to attack the PCs so why not just have both attacks go off at once seeing how the reaction trigger and the opportunity for the goblin to attack are happening practically at once.

[xroads]

If the heroes passive perception beats the stealth rolls of one or more goblins, then I think the heroes can shoot first against those clumsy goblins. Otherwise, they'll have to take the hits first before they can return fire.

This way the heroes are rewarded for planning and sacrificing an action. But not so much so that it immediately becomes a rout for the goblins.

[JackPhoenix]

Note that being hidden is not the same thing as being unseen. Being hidden means your position is not known, and being unseen is one of the prerequisites to being hidden, but you can be unseen and not hidden. Attacking reveals the attacker's position (removing hidden 'status'), but does not necessarily make the attacker visible.

[NaughtyTiger]

I could see the reasoning there if the goblins were firing from say thick underbrush but those attacks would probably be less accurate due to that cover working both ways.
The OP scenario specifically has the goblins moving out of cover/hidden to attack the PCs so why not just have both attacks go off at once seeing how the reaction trigger and the opportunity for the goblin to attack are happening practically at once.

goblin steps out of view and Hides as bonus action (makes a stealth roll higher than PC's passive perception, per xroads)
next turn goblin attacks with a bow.

in your view, does the goblin gain advantage on the attack?
if yes, by what rule?
if no, then what does hiding in combat do for the goblin?

[stoutstien]

goblin steps out of view and Hides as bonus action (makes a stealth roll higher than PC's passive perception, per xroads)
next turn goblin attacks with a bow.

in your view, does the goblin gain advantage on the attack?
if yes, by what rule?
if no, then what does hiding in combat do for the goblin?

I what have to consider other factors personally. Is the goblin hiding behind cover or concealment? Has the goblin reuse the same cover/concealment More than once? Are we talking about one single goblin or a bunch of goblins popping in and out? Is the goblin aware that the PC is planning on attacking them if they are exposed? What was the exact wording of the ready action?

In a pure White room scenario if the players ready action is specific enough I would allow it to trigger before the goblin can attack. "I ready my bow to shoot the goblin that is behind that tree if he comes in view."

If the trigger is more generic id probably run it goblin attacks with adv then ready action attack would trigger. "I Ready my bow to shoot the next goblin that I see."

Ready action and stealth rules are two areas where the rules will probably leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth and together they are a Trainwreck.

[NaughtyTiger]

snip

okay, i think i get it.

you are approaching from the DM's perspective of how you would run the game as opposed to what the RAW would be. that was not clear in your initial responses.

[stoutstien]

okay, i think i get it.

you are approaching from the DM's perspective of how you would run the game as opposed to what the RAW would be. that was not clear in your initial responses.

Aye. That's on me.
I think RAW is ok in this scenario most of the time but I've seen cases where tables run into that it becomes nonsensical.

[NaughtyTiger]

Ready action and stealth rules are two areas where the rules will probably leave a bad taste in everyone's mouth and together they are a Trainwreck.

i particularly like this statement