powerful permanent low level out of combat spell and/or feat combos?

[newguydude1]

disclaimer: this thread is about my table and my table only. my table follows raw as closely as possible. so if you have no intention of talking about my table, raw, or help me, please dont derail the thread with your offtopic post.
rule1: dont derail the thread. dont post offtopic stuff. this is about my table and raw only. for example, if at your table you ignore the rules and do whatever you want based on what you believe to be "intent", please dont derail this thread by posting such nonsense as it has absolutely nothing to do with my table or raw.
rule2: backup all statements pertaining to rules with rule citations. i didnt want to do this rule because it might discourage people who know their stuff from posting because citing rules is hard work, but too many people in the past have said im wrong when a simple rule lookup wouldve ended the matter which bloats the thread and makes it hard to read. in addition people have suddenly without warning start talking about their table and not mine or raw, tries to pass off their house rule as raw, and refuses/ignores any requests for them to prove their claim. so im hoping that if everyone has to post rule citations to backup their statements it will decrease the chance of people derailing the thread with offtopic stuff that doesnt help me at all and further cement that this thread is about my table or raw, not theirs or their house rules.



the topic is about out of combat stuff not in combat stuff. so mailman stuff is offtopic. things that create long duration soldiers is ontopic.

the only one i could find were
1. magic circle + dimensional anchor + lesser planar exchange + fell animate. lesser planar exchange is a calling spell, calling spells return the called creature once and if that is prevented somehow then they are stuck. so the combo here is use the standard planar binding trap of magic circle and dimensional anchor to trap the exchanged creature, have the exchanged creature almost kill itself returning you to the plane but leaving the creature stuck here and dying, and kill the creature with a fell animate spell to turn it into a zombie for free.
2. metamorphic transfer/assume supernatural ability + metamorphosis/polymorph to transform into a madcrafter of thoon and use its su ability to create an army of scythers of thoon.
3. ice to flesh or stone to flesh on a statue to make a corpse for animate dead. restricted to creatures that fit inside the spell aoe.

prestige class spells are fine too. im trying to think of low level stuff for an artificer build im work shopping. because ill need to use xp for spell storing item and scroll creation, things that last 24hours or longer is still not what im looking for because it becomes an xp tax for me every 24 hours.

my dm is not liking mirror mephit so he asked me if i could find a replacement strategy. currently my choice stone to flesh animate dead because its on a domain list allowing me to get it early.

the combos need not be soldier making. it could be anything. but it has to be strong and not something i need to constantly recast.



A calling spell transports a creature from another plane to the plane you are on. The spell grants the creature the one-time ability to return to its plane of origin, although the spell may limit the circumstances under which this is possible. Creatures who are called actually die when they are killed; they do not disappear and reform, as do those brought by a summoning spell (see below). The duration of a calling spell is instantaneous, which means that the called creature can’t be dispelled.

The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. (For example, this spell would turn a stone golem into a flesh golem, but an ordinary statue would become a corpse.) You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.


rejected list

fabricate + a way to ignore material component. this spell is really badly written and confusing but its clear you need to target something and the spell only converts, not create, so ignoring the material component doesnt let me make something out of nothing.

[Doctor Despair]

the topic is about out of combat stuff not in combat stuff. so mailman stuff is offtopic. things that create long duration soldiers is ontopic.

...

the combos need not be soldier making. it could be anything. but it has to be strong and not something i need to constantly recast.



I suppose I'll start the conversation by saying it would be helpful for you to clarify exactly what you want. What do you want to be able to do? It seems like you want to be able to create creatures, but it doesn't have to be, but it does have to be strong, but it shouldn't be combat-related. You also say low-level, but don't clarify what ECL your table is working with.

Edit:

Alright, I'll bite. Take the Gheden half-undead template (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/half-undead.shtml) and the racial feat Troll-Blooded (https://www.realmshelps.net/charbuild/feat/Troll_Blooded) and be immune to non-acid, non-fire damage at ECL 2. Throw on a parasol from Sand-Storm or Sandals of the Vagabond from the MIC, I think, or something for the exhaustion. When able, put on some will-save-boosting gear and add some golem limbs for the half-golem magic-immunity (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/halfgolem.shtml), and have someone cast a spell to give you the fire sub-type (https://dndtools.net/spells/sandstorm--85/mantle-of-the-fiery-spirit--3175/). You could also start with Void Mind (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/voidmind.shtml) (LA +3) or Half-Black Dragon (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/halfDragon.htm) (LA +3) for acid immunity.

[Segev]

rejected list

fabricate + a way to ignore material component. this spell is really badly written and confusing but its clear you need to target something and the spell only converts, not create, so ignoring the material component doesnt let me make something out of nothing.

Remind me: are you 3.5 only? If not, Pathfinder has blood money (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blood-money/) which explicitly CREATES the material component from the blood shed. So, used with fabricate to, say, create a lovely mahogany desk, you prick yourself, shed however much blood is required for the gp cost of the wood (1/3 that of the desk's final value), and the blood turns into the planks or logs or whatever of wood, as well as some nice finish, and then fabricate turns that into the desk.

Obviously doesn't work in 3.5-only, though, since it's a PF spell.


If you're 3.5-only and using metamagic like Fell Animate, consider getting Slaymates. These are printed in Libris Mortis, and their Pale Aura reduces the metamagic cost to prepare (and I think spontaneously cast, but I recommend you go read them for yourself) necromancy spells by 1 level per Slaymate. I would assume this bottoms out at +0, and you can't keep applying Slaymates to get "negative" metamagic costs.

IIRC, Fell Animate is +4 spell levels, so 4 Slaymates will let you add it to any valid Necromancy spell for no slot increase.

Pick low-level damaging Necromancies to prepare with this, and you can use them as "finishers" to animate zombies without any additional material cost.

To control undead beyond your cap, use command undead. Chain Spell is +3 spell levels. Extend Spell is +1. 4 Slaymates will get you a Chain Extend command undead for a 2nd-level spell slot. With Precocious Apprentice, you could be doing this from level 1, but it requires finding and recruiting your slaymates somehow, which is not guaranteed. But a single casting Chain Extend command undead will unerringly control CL+1 mindless undead for 2xCL days. It doesn't care how high the HD of these undead are, either.

You can also use command undead as a "charm person"-like effect on the slaymates to recruit them. Get one, and you can Extend the one you prepare the next day, so now you can get two of them. Getting the third might require some harder work, maybe having the other two persuade him to cooperate. Ideally, you can get 4.

Certainly, by level 2, a single Extend command undead will get you 4 days of control, so you can control 4 of them by casting 1/day (assuming they don't make their saves; try to convince them to willingly fail). With 4, you can prepare Extend Chain Command Undead, and now you can "charm" one of them each day and also control 2 other undead.

[TheCount]

The dirty tricks handbooks from minmaxboards?
https://www.google.com/search?q=d%26d+3.5+dirty+tricks&oq=d%26d+3.5+dirty+tricks&aqs=heirloom-srp..

[newguydude1]

Remind me: are you 3.5 only?

3.5 only. if you keep forgetting think mirror mephits. doesnt exist in pf and no one really allows it into their 3.5 game cause its powerful and in a dungeon book and not a expansion book.


I suppose I'll start the conversation by saying it would be helpful for you to clarify exactly what you want. What do you want to be able to do? It seems like you want to be able to create creatures, but it doesn't have to be, but it does have to be strong, but it shouldn't be combat-related. You also say low-level, but don't clarify what ECL your table is working with.

i want things that would carry my artificer to level 8 where i have access to planar binding.

but i dont want this thread to be specific to my character. my table yes but my character no. so it doesnt have to be an artificer trick. it can be any spellcaster trick like what segev is posting with his necromancer advice.

[Anthrowhale]

The focus on minions reminds me of some earlier threads along these lines. One trick there was to be an LA+0 outsider (a Neraph for example), able to cast Alter Self at level 3 to become a Ravid, then use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get access to Animate Objects (Su) at will as if cast at 20th level.

[Bronk]

The focus on minions reminds me of some earlier threads along these lines. One trick there was to be an LA+0 outsider (a Neraph for example), able to cast Alter Self at level 3 to become a Ravid, then use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get access to Animate Objects (Su) at will as if cast at 20th level.

With the same trick (btw, lesser planetouched would also qualify at LA+0), by level 5 you could become a Dwarf Ancestor. (MM4) They're pretty neat for a couple of reasons.

First, as listed, they have a big natural armor bonus.

Second, you could work something out with their description that says that under normal circumstances, they start out incorporeal, but inhabit a large sized statue when summoned. You weren't summoned, you cast Alter Self, so you might be able to use it as a longer lasting incorporeal form as well.

[Segev]

3.5 only. if you keep forgetting think mirror mephits. doesnt exist in pf and no one really allows it into their 3.5 game cause its powerful and in a dungeon book and not a expansion book.

Alright. Read the part of my post after the multi-line break for a 3.5-only trick for maximizing high-HD mindless undead under your control at low levels, then. :smallsmile:

[newguydude1]

The focus on minions reminds me of some earlier threads along these lines. One trick there was to be an LA+0 outsider (a Neraph for example), able to cast Alter Self at level 3 to become a Ravid, then use the Assume Supernatural Ability feat to get access to Animate Objects (Su) at will as if cast at 20th level.

i saw that trick and its not what im looking for because you need to constantly cast persistent alter self every day. thats a xp tax.

think umd rogue or fighter. he has finite money. he has access to low level scroll shops. what scrolls can he buy to make some powerful permanent effects? it cant be scrolls of alter self because his finite money supply will run out after a few uses.

[Anthrowhale]

i saw that trick and its not what im looking for because you need to constantly cast persistent alter self every day. thats a xp tax.

think umd rogue or fighter. he has finite money. he has access to low level scroll shops. what scrolls can he buy to make some powerful permanent effects? it cant be scrolls of alter self because his finite money supply will run out after a few uses.

For scroll access to advanced permanent effects you can take Arcane Mastery to cast substantially higher level spells off scrolls with zero chance of failure.

Note also that persistent spell does not cost XP.

[Zarrgon]

Well creating both constructs and undead get you solders. Both go well out of combat too as you can ride a skeletal horse or have a skeletal ox pull your wagon.

Take a level in Effigy Master, it's well worth it. A dire wolf effigy is nice, and a Rhinoceros is even better. Right up to Dragon. Also black bears and dire weasels.

You can craft summoning items, while not permanent they can be quite helpful. Wands and scrolls can work good.

Don't forget magic items like the Bag of Tricks and maybe best of all: figurines of wondrous power. There are plenty of figurines scattered around D&D.