[3.PF] High End Martials: Spellstrike or Maneuvers?

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, I've recently been playing a Magus and found it a ton of fun, but surprisingly harder than I thought in the sense that you have to pick your targets well, as you need full round actions to really do your thing, and getting there takes usually at least a round of moving.

Initiators, meanwhile, boost of being strong exactly where the Gish-in-a-can fellows are weak: the standard action maneuvers make you very agile while maintaining high efficiency, even if some of the stronger ones are full round to use.

I didn't want to bloat the title, but Duskblade is also in. I think Magus is much better than Dusky, but it's up against much fiercer Initiators from PoW.

This isn't meant to crown the King of Fighters or anything, but I'm curious: if you were to play something along these lines, which would be your pick and why? Which do you feel is stronger? More fun to play?

Personally, the ability to wreck face and put up rounds/level buffs at the same time is really appealing for fights which seem especially tough, and a 6/9 spell progression in PF is very well balanced.

Still, I have only played ToB initiators (which were great on their own), and the maneuvers from PoW seem really strong, and quite a bit more diverse.

So, thoughts?

[Troacctid]

Have you considered using a mount such as a phantom steed to allow you to move around while taking a full-round action?

Or, the classic "Why not both?" option of a spell-storing weapon.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Have you considered using a mount such as a phantom steed to allow you to move around while taking a full-round action?

Or, the classic "Why not both?" option of a spell-storing weapon.
Don't have access to it yet (lv 6 so far, but should level soon), but it's a good idea. In this particular case, tho, it doesn't terribly fit the character as he is a Stryx.

Regardless, it's a neat workaround, tho all the limitations of fighting mounted apply.

Spell-storing is neat, but I don't feel it compares to a proper Duskblade, much less a Magus.

I suppose I should have titled it "Spell Combat" instead of Spellstrike, but poor Duskblade is left behind as is.

[Kurald Galain]

So, I've recently been playing a Magus and found it a ton of fun, but surprisingly harder than I thought in the sense that you have to pick your targets well, as you need full round actions to really do your thing, and getting there takes usually at least a round of moving.

Try doing spell combat with Bladed Dash, Storm Step, or Dimension Door. The Magus's mobility is hard to beat.

Also, have a guide (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?423754-Myrrh-Frankincense-and-Steel-Kurald-Galain-s-Guide-to-the-Magus&).

[Gnaeus]

I think the PoW adepts beat anything but a full caster.

Look at Black Seraph alone. Easily acquired by any POW class.
Level 7. The Magus gets one 3rd level spell.

The initiator gets this choice:
One stance which is a permanent darkness+ dark vision+ a 1/round save or suck as a move action.

A strike that does +6d6 damage with a save or lose/save AND suck

A 30’ PBAOE which does more than level D6 (More against good creatures) of profane (virtually unresistable) damage with a debuff rider. No SR for all your golem smashing needs.

An immediate counter which does damage and no save staggers the target (immediately ending full attacks after the first shot)

Several initiator classes can recover maneuvers as a swift or move action. That’s a better than fireball every round. Or a shocking grasp+SoL that staggers for a round on a succeeded save every round. I would seriously consider any of those as a decent level 4 spell. But any initiator will get that every battle, most a couple of times/battle, some every round. And that’s just your level 7 maneuver. From one (powerful) style. You could already have permanent Haste from Riven Hourglass and be picking up Temporal Body Adjustment (cancel any condition). Or you could have elemental flux, for an immediate action, better than dispel magic (because spell craft is easier to boost than CL) counterspel that heals you when it succeeds. By level 9 you could have all of those, nearly at will.

[stack]

Keep in mind that a magis can cast, move, then deliver via spellstrike, all in one round. You aren't locked into only using spell combat. I am sure Kurald Galain covers that in the guide, but thought it worth highlighting.

[Ramza00]

Path of Warrior Prestige if you want the style of a Gish. Using the Mage Hunter or the Animus Adept or Both if we are talking HD 15 to 20 and not 6 to 15.

Mage Hunter is a prestige class that gives you 6th level spells at HD 15. (Spells are magus based.) It is also 3/4 BAB and advances the IL of all your previous classes while giving you 5 maneuvers, 3 stances, and 3 more ready maneuvers over the 10 levels. At HD 10 you get a stance that allows you to cast a strike and a spell in the same round. You also get 3 bonus feats (which you can not choose) and some other useful class abilities.

And due to how Path of War Prestige classes work go A 1/ B 3/ C 1 before entering Mage Hunter or A 1/ B 1/ C 1/ D 1/ E 1. The class you take at 5th he has the practiced initiator trait, thus all the maneuvers you pick at that HD can be up to 3rd level. And when your prestige class advances your dip classes at IL 4, 6, 8, etc you can swap your lower level maneuvers to higher level maneuvers.

So for example the A 1/B 3/ C 1 option going into Mage Hunter 5 of 10. At HD 5 you have
A 1 has IL of 8 and thus swapped maneuvers means it has a 4th, 3rd, and 2nd level maneuvers.
B 3 has an IL of 9 and thus has an 4th, 3rd, and 2nd level maneuvers plus the additional 2nd level maneuver the 4th HD B 3 gave
C 1 due to practiced initiator has an IL of 10 at 10th HD has an additional 5th and 4th maneuvers due to maneuver swapping and several 3rd level maneuvers. Including a 3rd level stance.
Mage Hunter 5 gives an additional 4th and 5th level maneuvers plus a 5th level stance.

Your spells known are 2 3rd, 3 4th, 4 1st from the magus list. Spells are 4/3/2 plus bonus spells.

Plus other abilities like casting in armor, dimensions anchor, free extend spell, strike of dispelling, etc.

——————

Likewise an Animus Adept cast spell like effects called glyphs as free actions whenever they use a strike. Things that boost you or your allies, extra damage, teleport etc as free actions and thus force multipliers.

[Efrate]

For just the beating of the face and in combat survivability I would take Pow over magus. It's performs better and simpler and is nearly resourceless. For out of combat magus can do a lot more, though deep diving through PoW gives stuff like flight, teleportation, magic item crafting, a weird form for almost persist levels of buff sharing and other things.

I have a ton more experience with PoW compared to magus at the table however so I may be off base. Magus always struck me as the wade into melee cut a guy with a sword then fire off a fireball. It delivers on that but it's more the playstyle than raw numerical stuff IMO.

[upho]

Or, the classic "Why not both?" option of a spell-storing weapon.
Spell-storing is neat, but I don't feel it compares to a proper Duskblade, much less a Magus.Indeed.

I think the one true "Why not both?"-option is of course the Bladecaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster/). Which is simply the PrC for a magus in a game with PoW, especially its 4th level swift action Battlecaster's Strike feature and hilarious Arcane Assault capstone having amazing synergy with Spellstrike, without necessarily making Spell Combat less useful. Combines well with pretty much any Int-based initiator.


Try doing spell combat with Bladed Dash, Storm Step, or Dimension Door. The Magus's mobility is hard to beat.This. Although by 10th level or so, an initiator who invests in say poofaport and action economy shenanigans can of course have at least equally great personal mobility in combat available during more rounds, but I definitely wouldn't say this makes the magus' typically less build-specific personal mobility appear weak or insufficient in comparison.

Not to mention the magus is a prepared arcane caster with quite a few related utility spells on its list, which of course means the class' overall mobility related power and versatility is virtually guaranteed to be greater than that of any initiator. (For example, no maneuver is even remotely close to matching the instant long-distance party movement provided by teleport.)


I think the PoW adepts beat anything but a full caster.Or a summoner. And most importantly basically only if limiting the comparison to mid-/high-op builds and combat performance.


Look at Black Seraph alone. Easily acquired by any POW class.Well, at least by those who don't mind paying a trait (or in some settings an alignment-restricted but otherwise life-long membership in a morally questionable martial tradition), not to mention doing explicitly EVILTM deeds...


Level 7. The Magus gets one 3rd level spell.And also increases the selection of spells the magus may copy, prepare and cast with more than 100 other new options.


The initiator gets this choice:
One stance which is a permanent darkness+ dark vision+ a 1/round save or suck as a move action.Nitpick, but no maneuver progression grants a new stance at 7th. So without spending gold, several days, and a previously granted stance on retraining, this stance isn't available before 9th. (And regardless, this stance isn't especially impressive.)


A strike that does +6d6 damage with a save or lose/save AND suck

A 30’ PBAOE which does more than level D6 (More against good creatures) of profane (virtually unresistable) damage with a debuff rider. No SR for all your golem smashing needs.Yeah, for most initiators with access to Black Seraph and who don't mind the [evil] tag these two have, they definitely stand out as two of the far most powerful 4th level strikes in the entire PoW series.

[TotallyNotEvil]

> Recommends Bladed Dash to the Skald in the party.
> Forgets to pick it up.

Come on me, you are better than that.

Regardless, thanks for the tips, and the rest is pretty much the sort of discussion I was hoping for!

@upho Bladecaster seems tremendously interesting! And while it seems to have been made with a Magus 4/Initiator 1 entry in mind, is it me or could one actually enter as a Wizard and end up with 9ths? Fighty wizards aren't optimal wizards, but that's enough spellcasting that by itself it carries the character.

Probably only really good in a high level game, tho.

[Gnaeus]

Not to mention the magus is a prepared arcane caster with quite a few related utility spells on its list, which of course means the class' overall mobility related power and versatility is virtually guaranteed to be greater than that of any initiator. (For example, no maneuver is even remotely close to matching the instant long-distance party movement provided by teleport.)

At level 13 he gets that. A mystic could have been crafting teleport scrolls for 4 levels. He can also just Nope magical effects. A harbinger has had rapid flight on his giant raven for 3+ levels. A zealot has been providing telepathy and healing for like 9 Levels.


Or a summoner
Ok. Any full caster by another name.



And most importantly basically only if limiting the comparison to mid-/high-op builds and combat performance.

LolNo. The PoW will dominate harder at low op. And their out of combat tricks are still very effective compared with a typical magus with their limited list and slow spell progression. You basically have to take Mystic out of the running for it not to be humiliating.


Well, at least by those who don't mind paying a trait (or in some settings an alignment-restricted but otherwise life-long membership in a morally questionable martial tradition), not to mention doing explicitly EVILTM deeds..

Seems like a heck of a good trait use to me. Even that last part is negotiable if it’s a stopping point with the right archetype.


And also increases the selection of spells the magus may copy, prepare and cast with more than 100 other new options
Of which he gets 2, and can prepare 2. From a decidedly Meh list, and at least one is almost certain to be a touch attack.


Nitpick, but no maneuver progression grants a new stance at 7th. So without spending gold, several days, and a previously granted stance on retraining, this stance isn't available before 9th. (And regardless, this stance isn't especially impressive.

True. Although we do get a feat we could use and retrain later if necessary.

What magus spell gives an at will save or lose as a move action? Not that there aren’t other 4th level stances that compete, but 3rd level magus spells? Hardly. For a fear build (Easy with Black Seraph, which lets you bypass fear immunity) it isn’t even a save or lose. It’s a lose or suck.


Yeah, for most initiators with access to Black Seraph and who don't mind the [evil] tag these two have, they definitely stand out as two of the far most powerful 4th level strikes in the entire PoW series.

Which again, is any initiator who can spend a trait. And they are 2 of the most brutal 4th level combat strikes. Hardly more powerful than Riven Hourglass, with its negation of any negative condition. Or Silver crane with its give an ally a second save at +4. Or mystic Flux with its better than counterspell. Or Shattered Mirror with its DDoor+ attack 3 levels before magus gets DDoor alone. Or Veiled moon which does that and then you teleport away after. Or Sleeping goddess, which let you reroll a save or attack every round 2 levels ago. Black Seraph is in the top half of disciplines. But there are easily half a dozen disciplines that provide effects that would be highly, highly competitive with equal level tier 1 spells, basically at will, and levels before the magus has spells of that level. Compare Chain Lightning with Zephyr Flux, which has an energy type of your choice, ignores SR, has a 2 points higher save, and comes with a free debuff and a free teleport, all available multiple times per combat before the magus can even cast his first level 6 spells.

[Ignimortis]

So, thoughts?

Played a Harbinger in a party (from level 8 to level 12 or so) with a Magus. Let's just say that I inadvertently outshone him significantly, as any turn when he couldn't make a full attack, his DPR dropped massively, and even though he was a gun magus and thus targeted Touch AC, I still did a lot better a lot of the time. Swift-action movement helps, as well as full-round maneuvers which let you move around a bit (Warp Worm).

[Eladrinblade]

Have you considered using a mount such as a phantom steed to allow you to move around while taking a full-round action?

Hold up; when mounted you can't make a full-attack if your mount as moved more than 5ft. Unless you weren't referring to melee.

[TotallyNotEvil]

How do the Initiators fare in out-of-combat uses?

Things like Face duties, long range transportation, investigation and information gathering, crafting?

Hold up; when mounted you can't make a full-attack if your mount as moved more than 5ft. Unless you weren't referring to melee.

I believe the idea is that Spell-Combat is a full round action, and even if you only get 1 attack, you still get that and the spell.

At least that's what I concluded from the suggestion and a quick look at the mounted ruled.

[Gnaeus]

How do the Initiators fare in out-of-combat uses?

Things like Face duties, long range transportation, investigation and information gathering, crafting?.

Varies by class. None is amazing at long range travel (although they are good at stuff like permaflight, or short range teleporting every single round to evade traps.). Mystics are one of the best crafters in the game. They can craft without prerequisites, so for things like scroll creation they dominate. (The design theory for both Mystic and Vizier seems to be “we are going to take a wizard but turn it up to 11 and balance it by removing the things people complain about on boards, like teleport and minion creation”) Stalkers, especially vigilante stalkers, are full skill monkeys with access to investigators talents. Otherwise, they don’t have much by way of clairvoyance or contact other plane, but lots of routes to scent, see invisible, blindsight, true seeing and the like. For one example, there is a silver crane stance available at level 1 that gives advantage (roll twice, use better roll) on all perception checks, and detect evil at will as well as rerolling concealment miss chances. Or Veiled Moon gives Scent along with the ability to detect incorporeal creatures (also at level 1). Most disciplines have associated skills. So in order to really make Golden Lion or black Seraph shine, you are looking at pimping your diplomacy or intimidate, and some of the discipline feats also give bonuses to the related skills.

[Ramza00]

How do the Initiators fare in out-of-combat uses?

Things like Face duties, long range transportation, investigation and information gathering, crafting?

Depends on the class. For example a 1 level dip into Rubato Bard and the Pagaent of the Peacock feat allows you to use Cha / Bluff for Knowledge and other ain’t Skills for about 4 hours a day. You just need bardic performance to swap 1 BP for 10 mins of buffs. Well the DSP steelforge book gives you charms as a magic item so 20 more uses of Bardic Performance is available for a small amount of gold. Technically a non initiatior bare can do this but maneuvers for a 1 level dip is much better than spells.

Likewise other PoW classes and archetypes can poach things to help with skills. For example a Ordained a Defender Warder is a Wis based Warder. It also swaps out its Warder 3 Bonus Feat for an Inquisition or Blessing. Well there are several inquisitions that make certain skills wisdom based. So on and so on.

Mystic is an excellent crafter.

[Troacctid]

I believe the idea is that Spell-Combat is a full round action, and even if you only get 1 attack, you still get that and the spell.

At least that's what I concluded from the suggestion and a quick look at the mounted ruled.
That's correct. As long as your spell isn't also making an additional melee attack, there's no problem.

[Kris Moonhand]

Given the choice between Magus and PoW, I'd choose PoW. Hell, I'd play a Warlord before I'd play a Wizard, and I don't even like Warlord. I just hate vancian spellcasting with a passion. Legendary Magus is alright though, since it casts like an Arcanist. That might be a tougher choice.

[Kurald Galain]

Legendary Magus is alright though, since it casts like an Arcanist.

And the Eldritch Scion Magus archetype casts like a sorcerer.

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the one hand, at least in my experience with a low level Magus, spell slots are somewhat tight if I want utility, so a spontaneous setup for more endurance is welcome. This should get progressively better with more levels tho, and a good basic attack can work very well with your above average magical weapon. PF PA/Deadly Agility makes it painless to have high damage and high attack, which goes well with a Keen rapier or longsword. This helps extend your stamina for long adventuring days.

While it's no Duskblade, Eldritch Scion does harken to that hilariously large tank of spellslots, which existed for good reason. Zap people all day, every day.

On the other hand, the prepared nature gives the Magus a pretty big leg-up in versatility when compared to the phenomenal face-punching ability of the Initiators.

That's for the Eldritch Scion, which has other pros and cons. The Legendary Magus, which I didn't know of, seems to be a straight up upgrade to casting: same spells per day, incredible flexibility of rearranging a spells known list and generous spells known.

So while definitely a consideration, in this particular comparison the Eldritch Scion might bring more Cons than Pros, especially as levels climb and the normal Magus finds itself with slots to spare on his daily loadout.

[Kurald Galain]

On the one hand, at least in my experience with a low level Magus, spell slots are somewhat tight
Magus gets infinite-use cantrips (which dusky does not) and spell recall. In practice that means that the Magus has more spells per day than dusky, until both get to the point where they have way more spells than they need. And by then, Magus has higher level spells and a much wider spell selection. Seriously, the dusky's spell list is so narrow it's downright ridiculous.

At very low level, both would do well to carry a bunch of scrolls around, but that goes for almost every caster.

I mentioned Eldritch Scion not because of greater endurance, but because it's not vancian.

[Chaos Jackal]

I think the one true "Why not both?"-option is of course the Bladecaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster/). Which is simply the PrC for a magus in a game with PoW, especially its 4th level swift action Battlecaster's Strike feature and hilarious Arcane Assault capstone having amazing synergy with Spellstrike, without necessarily making Spell Combat less useful. Combines well with pretty much any Int-based initiator.
I'd say it depends. Magus and bladecaster have some pretty cool synergies, but entry requires two bad feats, a dip in another initiator class penalizing your spellcasting progression or an additional feat tax in the form of Martial Training I and II for maneuvers and stances, and the PrC itself either delays spellcasting progression or has you take another feat to mitigate that. That's a 2-5 feat tax plus a 0-2 spell levels lost, and of course you're losing arcana and arcane pool. Adding to that, the bladecaster's early features don't pack a lot of punch, especially for a magus, so the PrC doesn't really kick in until lv4.

Of course, you ultimately get some powerful features and good synergies, and you have both maneuvers and spells, but it is pretty expensive. It's not a bad multiclass by any means, but you will feel the penalties for a while.


On the one hand, at least in my experience with a low level Magus, spell slots are somewhat tight if I want utility, so a spontaneous setup for more endurance is welcome.

Yeah, a low-level magus does feel a bit restrictive, but at least you can always spellstrike with Arcane Mark (or whatever touch cantrip you pick up via different means), cantrips in general are infinite use and add to your toolbox, Spell Recall is a thing even if it's a bit expensive and, to be fair, a magus isn't very big on utility, so it's not like you'll be using half your slots on social situations. Don't get me wrong, there's far more to the class than spamming SG, but the spell list definitely gravitates towards striking and buffing, especially early on. You get invisibility, some illusions and pretty good battlefield control (mind your saves though, unless you pump Int), all useful but definitely not your main schtick. Better variety than a duskblade, however.

[upho]

@upho Bladecaster seems tremendously interesting!It certainly is, at least if you're playing a magus who otherwise struggles to keep up with builds based on PoW classes in combat.


And while it seems to have been made with a Magus 4/Initiator 1 entry in mind,Yeah, though the description (written before the harbinger, medic, mystic, rajah, zealot and any archetypes for non-PoW classes) says:

"Most bladecasters are warder/wizards, warder/magus, or warlord/sorcerers, though some warder/witches are known who traffic with the fey realms. Few stalkers pursue this route, and those that do often are multiclassed with magus."


is it me or could one actually enter as a Wizard and end up with 9ths?Yes, since a minimum 3 levels of casting progression is lost in total. So for example a wizard 6/initiator 1/BC 10/wizard 3 ends up with casting progressed to 17th level, BAB +15 and typically CL 19 and IL 17 for 9th/9th spells/maneuvers (the Magical Knack and especially Practicied Initiator traits being no-brainers). Though the +4 BAB entry requirement of the BC also means that in order to end up with 9ths, the earliest possible entry level is 8th (instead of 6th for a magus build). And as the description says, also sorcerer and witch can work fine with the BC, although they delay and lose progression of typically more important features than the wizard does.


Fighty wizards aren't optimal wizards, but that's enough spellcasting that by itself it carries the character.In a large majority of games, yes.

But speaking of, I think the more challenging the game's enemies are in combat (the more powerful combatants the PCs are required to be), the less superior spells and casters become in PF. More specifically, when it comes to combat prowess in general, and how powerful enemies a PC is able to reliably beat in combat in particular, I believe PoW initiators have a notably higher op ceiling than PF full casters. IME, casters struggle greatly to get meaningful action economy and especially offense success probabilities - even for just a couple of rounds per day - in the same league as those which high-op initiators can have in every single round of combat, often with very little expenditure of limited resources.

For example, AFAIK not even a wizard 20 has access to anything which may allow them to consistently be much more than a minor annoyance to most published opponents of a CR above 26 or so, while an initiator build of the same level may be capable of removing multiple such enemies from combat in every round. (To a lesser extent, this is actually true also in the case of a few high-op martial builds limited to only 1PP options, including even something as seemingly basic as a human fighter 20.) So a PF game with demanding/high-op combat may actually develop a potentially serious "reversed" C/MD balance issue in higher levels, all foes sufficiently powerful to challenge the party's martials also rendering the party's casters irrelevant.


At level 13 he gets that. A mystic could have been crafting teleport scrolls for 4 levels. He can also just Nope magical effects. A harbinger has had rapid flight on his giant raven for 3+ levels. A zealot has been providing telepathy and healing for like 9 Levels.Uh, yes? I don't think I get what you're trying to say here. AFAICT, your examples don't contradict my point, and you're not saying something along the lines of "Generally speaking, the magus grants decidedly less useful mobility capabilities than the average PoW class does."

So why not also say for example: "The magus could also have been "Spell Combat haste"-ing the entire party in every combat for 9 levels."? And maybe: "The warlord could've been riding a roc with an 80' base fly speed for more than 9 levels."? Or how 'bout: "Any initiator could've had free action resurrection for 4 levels!"? And what about: "Even a straight fighter could've been very reliably ending entire encounters in their first turn for at least 2 levels!"?


Ok. Any full caster by another name.Out of curiosity, do you believe the "full caster by another name" also applies to the unchained summoner (which lacks the original version's ridiculous spell level discounts)? 'Cause my point remains the same regardless of summoner version.


LolNo. The PoW will dominate harder at low op.Fair enough. I certainly agree PoW classes have a higher floor than the magus, and since op levels aren't exactly objective, I may very well be assuming "low-op" to be higher than it actually is in most games (and in most people's heads).


And their out of combat tricks are still very effective compared with a typical magus with their limited list and slow spell progression.
...
Of which he gets 2, and can prepare 2. From a decidedly Meh list, and at least one is almost certain to be a touch attack.So you're saying a typical magus' out of combat abilities are decidedly less useful than those of a hypothetical average PoW class?


You basically have to take Mystic out of the running for it not to be humiliating.It almost seems to me you're comparing the magus to basically a multi-gestalt including all PoW base classes. If you are, then what's the point in discussing how it compares to the magus? If you're not, what exactly are you comparing to, and why would taking "the Mystic out of the running" have such an impact on this comparison?


Seems like a heck of a good trait use to me.For a very large majority of initiator PCs, I'm pretty certain it's not even on the proverbial "top 10 traits"-list. Partially because more than half of the maneuvers are rendered practically worthless by the [evil] tag - including all those above 3rd which are really good (cheap pun intended) - and partially because there's typically some very stiff competition, primarily from other disciplines (the trait often being the sole out-of-class discipline "slot" available) and secondarily from other traits.


Even that last part is negotiable if it’s a stopping point with the right archetype.Does this mean you believe carefree access to all of Black Seraph is typically well worth the costs involved, and consequently that at least non-evil initiators are generally best off as Discordant Crusader zealots?

TL/DR: AFAICT, I don't really disagree with you when it comes to the magus combat prowess compared to your average equally optimized initiator, but I find your choice of examples a bit weird. Not to mention that "can be greater than a magus in combat" isn't a "quality" only PoW martials have, but one which they share with some 1PP martials as well (most notably bloodrager and fighter). When it comes to out-of-combat and general utility, with the exception of the mystic (which I also consider T2), IME a magus will bring more - and especially different kinds of - useful tools to a party than an initiator.

As a sidenote, I also think it's worth noting that the overall benefit of the more teamwork and support oriented PoW classes and disciplines are typically far more dependent on the PCs and player's tactical skills than the magus. For example, I believe mystics, rajahs and zealots tend to have a quite considerably lower "play-op" floor than the magus, other initiators and especially 1PP martials. The same goes for especially Golden Lion, which can be basically anything from one of the weakest to one of the strongest disciplines largely dependent on the PC's/player's and party's/group's ability to work together in combat.

[Gnaeus]

Out of curiosity, do you believe the "full caster by another name" also applies to the unchained summoner (which lacks the original version's ridiculous spell level discounts)? 'Cause my point remains the same regardless of summoner version.

Yes. Because it doesn't really matter if I cast a spell or my Leonal casts it for me.



So you're saying a typical magus' out of combat abilities are decidedly less useful than those of a hypothetical average PoW class?

It almost seems to me you're comparing the magus to basically a multi-gestalt including all PoW base classes. If you are, then what's the point in discussing how it compares to the magus? If you're not, what exactly are you comparing to, and why would taking "the Mystic out of the running" have such an impact on this comparison?

How does one describe a typical PoW class without looking at a cross set of their abilities? What does that even look like? They are all different.

But if you are granting that Mystic has better in and out of combat capability than a magus (which you should, as you say, its really T2)

Then I would say that the others tend to have less theoretical utility than a magus, but higher practical utility. Yes, you could learn all the utility spells on your list, and fill all your slots with them. But that would be a really odd and suboptimal way to make a utility caster. Functionally, a Magus 10 has like 17 slots. You will fill 12 with combat spells? 15? How many of your 3's and 4's (only about 5 of those) At level 10 I would expect at a dead minimum for a magus to be able to go a 4 combat day, use a 3 or 4 level spell in each combat and firsts and seconds in the next 2 rounds, which still means you are using cantrips to attack in any combat that goes 4+ rounds, and your arcane pool in case of a 5th combat.

Compare with a warlord. Bottom of the ToB utility barrel. I'll focus on Golden Lion (best default option) Spend a trait or join an org for Veiled Moon, and trade for free for Unquiet grave. So at 10 I get 4 stances. I can easily devote 2 for pure combat, and still have at will see invisibility (the see invisible stance also grants blur, so it’s not bad in combat either) and at will incorporeality (Also grants ghost touch). I can at will negative energy heal, which is easy to achieve. I'm a Cha based 4/level class with a need to focus on diplomacy, and maybe intimidate, so my party face role seems decent. Permanent party wide save bonus versus poison and fatigue (good for traps and treason alike, and I once won a plot important footrace because my warlord was lending me a fatigue bonus). And of course at will short range teleports. I do think that beats a magus 10 in terms of what he is likely to actually prepare. And I think thats about the bottom of a mid op PoW character. Certainly a Zealot or stalker would bring more to the table. And bear in mind that I’m being generous by comparing at 7 and 10. Those are Magus break points. 6, 9 or 12 look even better for PoW.


For a very large majority of initiator PCs, I'm pretty certain it's not even on the proverbial "top 10 traits"-list. Partially because more than half of the maneuvers are rendered practically worthless by the [evil] tag - including all those above 3rd which are really good (cheap pun intended) - and partially because there's typically some very stiff competition, primarily from other disciplines (the trait often being the sole out-of-class discipline "slot" available) and secondarily from other traits.

Does this mean you believe carefree access to all of Black Seraph is typically well worth the costs involved, and consequently that at least non-evil initiators are generally best off as Discordant Crusader zealots?

No, as I said, those are probably the most brutal level 4 strikes, but hardly the most powerful. Then I showed another half dozen disciplines just as good. I'd tell you my favorite but I'd spend all my time changing it.

That said, I don't find the evil descriptor to be much of a barrier when discussing any OTHER class' stuff. When we mentioned that summoner we didn't talk about how much of his mojo takes an alignment descriptor. Animate Dead has the Evil tag and we talk about it in class power discussions all the darn time. Did 5th level clerics just lose their minionmancy? Good to know.


TL/DR: AFAICT, I don't really disagree with you when it comes to the magus combat prowess compared to your average equally optimized initiator, but I find your choice of examples a bit weird. Not to mention that "can be greater than a magus in combat" isn't a "quality" only PoW martials have, but one which they share with some 1PP martials as well (most notably bloodrager and fighter). When it comes to out-of-combat and general utility, with the exception of the mystic (which I also consider T2), IME a magus will bring more - and especially different kinds of - useful tools to a party than an initiator.

As I said, I doubt a magus will bring more utility in play than an initiator. He does have a little more flexibility in switching up his load. But that really isn't the same thing.


As a sidenote, I also think it's worth noting that the overall benefit of the more teamwork and support oriented PoW classes and disciplines are typically far more dependent on the PCs and player's tactical skills than the magus. For example, I believe mystics, rajahs and zealots tend to have a quite considerably lower "play-op" floor than the magus, other initiators and especially 1PP martials. The same goes for especially Golden Lion, which can be basically anything from one of the weakest to one of the strongest disciplines largely dependent on the PC's/player's and party's/group's ability to work together in combat.

Strongly dispute. A mystic could take nothing but Elemental Flux maneuvers and beat a low op magus. Both are just firing elemental damage at the enemy, but the mystic can do it every round of every combat and pick his energy types and typically do more damage. And of course at level 9+ the mystic can do anything a T1 can by making a scroll.

[Ramza00]

Just as a reminder. Riven Hourglass Eternity is an awesome combat feat for initators (has the marginal useful Riven Hourglass Style as a prerequisite, note you just need to be in a Riven Hourglass Stance not the Style mode to activate it.)

Riven Hourglass Eternity (starting at HD7) allows you to expend a maneuver to increase the duration by 1 round any spell, power, or boost affecting you. This is done as a free action.

Well mystic in combat and out of combat gains 1 maneuver per round (2 out of combat) thus you can make any buff last all day. All you need is a 1 level dip into Mystic, 2 feats, and finding a Riven Hourglass Stance you like.

Need fly all day, use your own maneuvers, magic items like wands, scroll, potions or your ally spell slots / psionic powers and now the benefit lasts all day.

Ghostwalk (Veiled Moon 3) makes you incorporeal all day. Invest in a cheap way to get ghost walk and now you have an effective double hit points, can play games with cover, and can go through walls.

Form Astral Armor 3 (Psychic Warrior 3, Gifted Blade 3, but many Wilders, Psions, Psychic Mage Wizards via expanded knowledge) makes you into an Aegis but also can be used for Initiator and Akasha tricks by the various aegis customization points. A true Swiss Army Knife power Form Astral Armor. Furthermore your friendly ally can cast Bastion (Psion 2 Vitalist 2) for more customization points for a few minutes but Bastion can not be used all day unlike Riven Hourglass Eternity with Form Astral Armor.

Likewise Metamorphosis, Metamorphosis Lesser, and Metamorphosis Greater are also other great Swiss Armor Knife powers.

—————

Thus one buff can be swapped at will for its utility. The buff can come from scrolls or your allies spell slots so you can have lots of utility that is situational and as needed yet lasts all day.

[Kris Moonhand]

Just as a reminder. Riven Hourglass Eternity is an awesome combat feat for initators (has the marginal useful Riven Hourglass Style as a prerequisite, note you just need to be in a Riven Hourglass Stance not the Style mode to activate it.)This is incorrect.

As a swift action, you can enter the stance employed by the fighting style a style feat embodies. Although you cannot use a style feat before combat begins, the style you are in persists until you spend a swift action to switch to a different combat style. You can use a feat that has a style feat as a prerequisite only while in the stance of the associated style. For example, if you have feats associated with Mantis Style and Tiger Style, you can use a swift action to adopt Tiger Style at the start of one turn, and then can use other feats that have Tiger Style as a prerequisite. By using another swift action at the start of your next turn, you could adopt Mantis Style and use other feats that have Mantis Style as a prerequisite.

[TotallyNotEvil]

So, the consensus seems to be that Initiators will wreck considerably more face than a Magus, but while they can be versatile in combat with the right Disciplines, they can't provide the same kind of versatility out of combat that a Magus can?

The PrC Mage Hunter, besides being good in and of itself, would then severely tilt the balance in favor of the weeaboos, wouldn't it?