Warmage/Rainbow Servant power

[el minster]

How powerful is this multiclass combo?
I've heard people say it's better than a Tier 1 class, is this true?

[AvatarVecna]

How powerful is this multiclass combo?
I've heard people say it's better than a Tier 1 class, is this true?

Up until you get the 10th lvl of the PrC, it's honestly nothing special. 10/10 casting progression, but you get at-will Detect Evil/Chaos and access to bad domains instead of the usual Warmage features (which are also nothing particularly special). But once you get Rainbow Servant 10, now you can spontaneously cast any spell on the cleric list. You have all the long-term flexibility of a cleric, with all the per-day flexibility of a favored soul, on top of access to the now-looking-much-worse Warmage list. There's over 1000 spells on the cleric list, and you've gained every last one as a free Spell Known.

[Nifft]

Note that 10/10 casting and access to non-Core spells will depend on your DM accepting those arguments.

If there's no DM (like in a CharOp thread) then you can do as you like, of course.

[el minster]

that sounds ridiculously overpowered, but does it beat a CoDzilla or god style wizard?

[AvatarVecna]

Note that 10/10 casting and access to non-Core spells will depend on your DM accepting those arguments.

If there's no DM (like in a CharOp thread) then you can do as you like, of course.

Book access is a fair point, although "you can only spontaneously cast off the entire core cleric list" isn't a huge downside. I don't see why you're implying that 10/10 casting is a controversial thing you have to convince the DM of, though. The text and table disagree, the class is basically a total downer for the first 9 levels if it's 6/10 (and is arguably still a downer as 6/10 even if you take the 10th level), and text trumps table by default anyway. Like yeah I guess your DM could decide to ignore the rules to nerf a class into being lame because the non-lame version maybe breaks the game with super-casting at lvl 15 depending on your build, but that seems a weird assumption to make.

[AvatarVecna]

that sounds ridiculously overpowered, but does it beat a CoDzilla or god style wizard?

Its casting is strictly better than cleric casting because cleric has to prepare specific spells in specific slots (and cleric doesn't get access to warmage spells). Where it gets tricky is figuring out if cleric getting to choose their domains, and getting to use DMM, pushes it ahead of somebody with blatantly better casting. At the very least, it makes Warmage competitive with the big T1 casters.

[wilphe]

Up until you get the 10th lvl of the PrC, it's honestly nothing special. 10/10 casting progression, but you get at-will Detect Evil/Chaos and access to bad domains instead of the usual Warmage features (which are also nothing particularly special). But once you get Rainbow Servant 10, now you can spontaneously cast any spell on the cleric list. You have all the long-term flexibility of a cleric, with all the per-day flexibility of a favored soul, on top of access to the now-looking-much-worse Warmage list. There's over 1000 spells on the cleric list, and you've gained every last one as a free Spell Known.

Thank you for this.

It really bugs me that a lot of people view this PrC as the route to REAL ULTIMATE POWER, but, even if you get the favourable breaks and interpretations you don't get the capstone ability until you are level 16

[Troacctid]

Book access is a fair point, although "you can only spontaneously cast off the entire core cleric list" isn't a huge downside. I don't see why you're implying that 10/10 casting is a controversial thing you have to convince the DM of, though. The text and table disagree, the class is basically a total downer for the first 9 levels if it's 6/10 (and is arguably still a downer as 6/10 even if you take the 10th level), and text trumps table by default anyway. Like yeah I guess your DM could decide to ignore the rules to nerf a class into being lame because the non-lame version maybe breaks the game with super-casting at lvl 15 depending on your build, but that seems a weird assumption to make.
It's probably a typo, along with sacred fist and seeker of the Misty Isle. Note how the introduction explicitly calls them out as an example of a prestige class that loses spellcasting progression. Most DMs don't have a problem saying that swordsages get 4x skill points at 1st level, even though RAW says 6x.

[AvatarVecna]

Thank you for this.

It really bugs me that a lot of people view this PrC as the route to REAL ULTIMATE POWER, but, even if you get the favourable breaks and interpretations you don't get the capstone ability until you are level 16

Yeah. Like, even if you're doing the weird trick where you pull off Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10, that's ECL 11 it's finally coming online, and you're pretty bog-standard at ECL 10. Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 9 is uncontroversial, a side-grade at best however you slice it. Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 10 is controversial, but also it's lvl 16 so the bar for "broken bull****" is a tad higher than normal. Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10 is controversial for multiple reasons, but even lvl 11 is getting kinda up there and reaching the point where caster supremacy is kinda assumed anyway, and where a T1 caster optimizing enough can make even this look kinda tame by comparison. Yeah, it's an easy trick that takes you from high T4/low T3 to High T1/Low T0 instantly, which is pretty great for Warmage, but it's at absolute best mid-high level material.

Compare with Incantatrix, which yes has a powerful capstone, but also has several worthwhile abilities along the way, including bonus feats and limited-per-day metamagic abuse as early as lvl 7.

[AvatarVecna]

It's probably a typo, along with sacred fist and seeker of the Misty Isle. Note how the introduction explicitly calls them out as an example of a prestige class that loses spellcasting progression. Most DMs don't have a problem saying that swordsages get 4x skill points at 1st level, even though RAW says 6x.

I'm not saying RAW is how the game should be played, I'm just saying it's the default game state for theorycrafting. In direct opposition to somebody going "but its just charop threads so you can assume the game works however you want it to for your trick", as if "RAW" is magic words cheating optimizers use to hide them just making up rules. We can't really make assumptions about how a DM would rule the game to work because if you ask nine DMs their ruling on a controversy, you'll get ten opinions, so RAW is how we judge the default state - because any other way of judging the default state is speculation at best. Sometimes that leads to silly and overpowered things happening, or things that run completely counter to designer intent - that's just what happens when the system of rules isn't perfectly written.

You can't come into a chess thread that asks "why do people think queens are such a powerful piece" and say "well it's obviously OP if the referee agrees that it is, but since this is theorycrafting you can say the rules of chess are whatever you want them to be".

[Nifft]

Book access is a fair point, although "you can only spontaneously cast off the entire core cleric list" isn't a huge downside. I don't see why you're implying that 10/10 casting is a controversial thing you have to convince the DM of, though.

Same reason you'd need to convince a DM that a Swordsage ought to get x6 skill points at 1st level.

Books contain errors, both in authorial judgement and in production quality, and those are some of the intended reasons why the DM has final authority rather than a book.

When the DM needs to make a call between "funky, niche, and non-broken" vs. "OMGWTFBBQ broken", it's not really all that mystifying to notice that most will tend to choose the former and not the latter.


Honestly in most games where Warmage is intended to be a viable option, it's probably because the DM is looking at running a game for lower-tier characters, and the combo might not be allowed even at 6/10 casting... though at 6/10 casting, the 3-tier jump becomes far less jarring.

[AvatarVecna]

If the capstone is broken regardless of being 6/10 or 10/10, it seems choosing between 6/10 or 10/10 isn't actually the point of controversy. You're welcome to continue clutching your pearls though. :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

I'm not saying RAW is how the game should be played, I'm just saying it's the default game state for theorycrafting.

The thing you need to recognize is that theorycrafting isn't the default game state for playing the game.


You're welcome to continue clutching your pearls though. :smalltongue:

Your "argument" looks more like an insult to my character.

Yeah, you're wrong and we're done here.

[AvatarVecna]

The thing you need to recognize is that theorycrafting isn't the default game state for playing the game.

I'm not saying otherwise. But when somebody asks "why do people think this combo is powerful", the answer is "because if you're following the rules as they exist by default, it is". That's not a statement on what the rules should be, or how most people would alter the rules to make it work. But that's the just how the rules are until a DM intervenes for good or ill, and pretending otherwise - pretending that "reading the rules" is somehow cheating for the sake of powergaming, is blatantly disingenuous.

[Troacctid]

I'm not saying otherwise. But when somebody asks "why do people think this combo is powerful", the answer is "because if you're following the rules as they exist by default, it is". That's not a statement on what the rules should be, or how most people would alter the rules to make it work. But that's the just how the rules are until a DM intervenes for good or ill, and pretending otherwise - pretending that "reading the rules" is somehow cheating for the sake of powergaming, is blatantly disingenuous.
Sure, but again, if this position is internally consistent, the same would apply to the swordsage's 6x skill points at 1st level.

Good theorycrafting acknowledges questionable or ambiguous portions of the rules with appropriate disclaimers.

[JNAProductions]

There is a difference between 6X SP and 10/10 casting.

One is literally never seen anywhere else.
The other is, if not all over the place, at least relatively common.

[AvatarVecna]

There is a difference between 6X SP and 10/10 casting.

One is literally never seen anywhere else.
The other is, if not all over the place, at least relatively common.

...this feels inaccurate, and the only reason I don't know for sure there's other 6/10 classes out there is cuz they're 6/10 so they never get talked about. But there's over 900 PrCs, I'm sure there's plenty of examples.

[JNAProductions]

...this feels inaccurate, and the only reason I don't know for sure there's other 6/10 classes out there is cuz they're 6/10 so they never get talked about. But there's over 900 PrCs, I'm sure there's plenty of examples.

You never see 6X SP anywhere else.

You see 6/10 and 10/10 casting elsewhere-or at least, the precedent is there for a PrC to have full casting or reduced casting.

Edit: Reading your post more closely, I think you actually did get my point, and I just missed yours. Derp.

[AvatarVecna]

Sure, but again, if this position is internally consistent, the same would apply to the swordsage's 6x skill points at 1st level.

Good theorycrafting acknowledges questionable or ambiguous portions of the rules with appropriate disclaimers.

I can definitely agree with this, in particular when it comes to theorycrafting that blatantly shifts its opinion on when to follow RAW vs RAI for the sake of powergaming. Too many threads to count that involve both the argument "I know the RAW is stupid here, but it's RAW so you have to follow it" and "RAW is stupid here, so assume this common sense ruling that happens to make my combo work". Theorycrafting that mostly sticks to RAW and calls out the ambiguous areas to advise on them is responsibly advising people. Theorycrafting that zealously sticks to RAW regardless of how stupid it gets is stuff that's never gonna make it to the table, but is at least internally consistent and is good at pushing edge-cases within the system to see how silly things can get. Schrodinger's Rules Lawyer is bad arguments and blatant powergaming.

[Elves]

Swordsage typo is false comparison, 4x skill points is a general rule established in the PHB whereas there's no similar general rule for PRC casting to provide a basis for anomaly.

(To be pedantic, arguably the "x4 at first level" note under the class table is a reminder and not primary rules text, making it not even a valid case of specific trumps general, but that's beside the point.)

[el minster]

It seems like peolpe are in denial.

[Troacctid]

Swordsage typo is false comparison, 4x skill points is a general rule established in the PHB whereas there's no similar general rule for PRC casting to provide a basis for anomaly.

(To be pedantic, arguably the "x4 at first level" note under the class table is a reminder and not primary rules text, making it not even a valid case of specific trumps general, but that's beside the point.)
They're both typos, unless you want to argue that they intentionally made the text not match the table. The intent is clearly established at the start of the chapter, where they say that rainbow servant has only partial advancement. I think it's a perfectly reasonable comparison.

[el minster]

even if you give up 4 spellcasting levels I thinkits worth it..

[Elves]

They're both typos, unless you want to argue that they intentionally made the text not match the table. The intent is clearly established at the start of the chapter, where they say that rainbow servant has only partial advancement. I think it's a perfectly reasonable comparison.

Or maybe they changed their mind later and very reasonably buffed the class. Impossible to tell, and unimportant by RAW.

It's an invalid comparison because unlike with the skill points there is no game rule it's flouting.


As for making the balance call, I'm not sure why you would advocate 6/10 vs 10/10 when it only delays and doesn't actually patch the warsnake combo while rendering the class unusable otherwise. 10/10 is better balanced.

[el minster]

So, there are plenty of PrCs which are next to useless.

[Elves]

So, there are plenty of PrCs which are next to useless.

In the last paragraph, I'm saying that even if you want to go against RAW and "correct" it to 6/10, I don't see what that judgment call adds. Why choose to make the class nonviable for general use when it doesn't even patch the combo?

If you don't want someone playing rainbow warsnake, just tell them not to play it.

[AvatarVecna]

In the last paragraph, I'm saying that even if you want to go against RAW and "correct" it to 6/10, I don't see what that judgment call adds. Why choose to make the class nonviable for general use when it doesn't even patch the combo?

If you don't want someone playing rainbow warsnake, just tell them not to play it.

If this class was exactly the same but for being 9 levels long, nobody would play it anymore often than they play something like Loremaster. It'd be a side-grade for any full caster without the capstone. Heck even for some full casters it's a neat increase in options but like...if you were playing a game of Core+1 book and you picked CD for this, your options are basically sorcerer or wizard, neither of which is made absurdly worse by this.

[el minster]

It's not "RAW". On the grid it says 6/10 and earlier in tge chapter its listed as "partial casting".

[Elves]

If this class was exactly the same but for being 9 levels long, nobody would play it
True, same as a lot of classes with particular standout abilities.


It's not "RAW". On the grid it says 6/10 and earlier in tge chapter its listed as "partial casting".

It is RAW, text always trumps table when they disagree.

"When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry."

The note earlier in the chapter that rainbow servant is "moderate spellcasting" is in a table as well, and even if it were in text it probably wouldn't count as primary source.

[Troacctid]

In the last paragraph, I'm saying that even if you want to go against RAW and "correct" it to 6/10, I don't see what that judgment call adds. Why choose to make the class nonviable for general use when it doesn't even patch the combo?

If you don't want someone playing rainbow warsnake, just tell them not to play it.
I dunno, I rated the table version as a sidegrade in my warmage handbook. The fact that it gives you a ton of extra known spells even before the capstone helps a lot.

[Elves]

I dunno, I rated the table version as a sidegrade in my warmage handbook. The fact that it gives you a ton of extra known spells even before the capstone helps a lot.

That's my point, even with lost 9ths it's still extremely good, probably much more than a sidegrade if you're going to play at high levels. It just makes it so that no one will play it except at high levels. I guess I just disagree that inconvenience is a good way of balancing powerful abilities, especially when it sabotages any other conceivable use the class could have. IMO, the problematic ability itself should always be the target of a fix.

[Karl Aegis]

The Extra Domain class feature specifically says the spontaneous caster does not get additional spells known. Claiming the Rainbow Servant gets additional spells known is disingenuous.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The Extra Domain class feature specifically says the spontaneous caster does not get additional spells known. Claiming the Rainbow Servant gets additional spells known is disingenuous.

On a sorcerer or bard, that'd be true. The question right now is about the warmage though. A warmage's spells known are his entire spell list. By adding spells to the list, you're functionally adding spells to his spells known at the same time.

[Karl Aegis]

On a sorcerer or bard, that'd be true. The question right now is about the warmage though. A warmage's spells known are his entire spell list. By adding spells to the list, you're functionally adding spells to his spells known at the same time.

None of the Rainbow Servant's class features add anything to the warmage's spell list.:smallconfused:

[Kelb_Panthera]

None of the Rainbow Servant's class features add anything to the warmage's spell list.:smallconfused:

When it adds the domains, it adds their spells to the character's spell list. If they had to select spells known, they could select those spells and they can use spell completion and trigger items that contain them. Since a warmage's spell list is his spells known, those domain spells become instantly available to cast.

[Troacctid]

None of the Rainbow Servant's class features add anything to the warmage's spell list.:smallconfused:
Good domain
Detect Evil
Air Domain
Fly
Law Domain
Detect Chaos
Cleric spells
Detect Thoughts
IMO this counts as a ton of extra known spells.

[el minster]

True, same as a lot of classes with particular standout abilities.



It is RAW, text always trumps table when they disagree.

"When you find a disagreement between two D&D rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry."

The note earlier in the chapter that rainbow servant is "moderate spellcasting" is in a table as well, and even if it were in text it probably wouldn't count as primary source.

You're entitled to your wrong opinion

[Karl Aegis]

When it adds the domains, it adds their spells to the character's spell list. If they had to select spells known, they could select those spells and they can use spell completion and trigger items that contain them. Since a warmage's spell list is his spells known, those domain spells become instantly available to cast.

That's not how domains work, even on a core cleric. No spells are added to a spell list.

[AvatarVecna]

A couple points of order for the thread:

1) While I know this is hardly considered a smoking gun or anything, considering the usual accuracy of such things, but the sample statblock is a Sorcerer 6/Rainbow Servant 4 with 4th lvl spell slots. This agrees with the table(s), but not with the text.

2) In regards to the above comments about domains and how they interact with non-clerics:


Extra Domain: A rainbow servant gains the granted power and spell access of the Good domain at 1st level, the Air domain at 4th level, and the Law domain at 7th level. The rainbow servant generally uses a multicolored feather of a couatl as her divine focus. For an explanation of how nonclerics receive domain spells, see the Extra Domains section on page 20 of the Complete Divine book.


Several of the prestige classes described in this chapter allow a member of that class to select an additional domain, which gives an additional granted power and offers more spells for the character to choose as domain spells. Sometimes a domain is specified, and other times a character can choose from any domains offered by his deity (or can choose any domain if he doesn't worship a specific god).

If a non-cleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a domain, the character still gains access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she memorizes spells like a druid, paladin, or ranger, then she can simply choose to memorize one of that domain's spells instead of one of her usual spells, but never more than one domain spell of each level. If she is a spellcster who keeps a spellbook as a wizard does, then she must find or purchase a scroll of that spell and pay the usual price to scribe the spell into her spellbook. In cases where the spell is only divine the wizard may scribe a divine scroll into his book. The wizard then may memorize one domain spell of each level each day. if the non-cleric is a spontaneous caster like a sorcerer or favored soul, then she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell. A sorcerer does not get to exceed his normal limit of spells known. Once the domain spell is known, the sorcerer may cast it freely. Unless the prestige class specifies otherwise, such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters.

If we are taking a strict reading of the rules, a warmage is a spontaneous caster, and thus "she may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell". The problem with taking this reading of things is that warmages don't get opportunities to make choices like that - or at least, they don't as part of their standard spellcasting progression. A warmage who gains a new iteration of Advanced Learning could theoretically take a single domain spell from those available to them (provided their progression were something like Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1/Warmage +X).

If we are taking a looser interpretation of the rules and operating on the assumption that the designers either didn't recall or couldn't conceive of a spontaneous caster who doesn't get to choose their spells known. From that perspective, the above paragraph can read very much like "well TeChNiCaLlY a warmage advancing in Rainbow Servant doesn't get to pick spells known, so they never get the chance to access the domain spells", and is unlikely to be well-received. It's not entirely clear to me whether or not designer intention would've been "warmage automatically knows every spell in the domain as soon as it's gained" or not, but I'm absolutely sure that if they'd thought about it, the answer they'd give to how that particular mechanic interacts with warmage wouldn't be "warmage gets nothing haha suck it".

[Troacctid]

Rules Compendium's section on spontaneous casters unifies the spells known rules enough for me to be comfortable ruling that you get the domain as spells known the same way you get all the other spells on your list.

The strictest reading would actually be that warmages learn spells when they gain access to a new level of spells. Thus, when you gain the Good domain as a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1, you don't get any spells from it until soon after, when you gain access to 4ths, at which point you learn all the 4th level spells on the warmage list, and, since she "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell," this is her opportunity, so she could pick any one spell of 4th level or lower from the domain to learn.

Meanwhile, the 10th level ability allows you to "learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class you have." So, normally, you only learn warmage spells when you gain access to a new spell level. This feature allows you to also learn cleric spells, even though they're not on the warmage list, but doesn't otherwise change the way you gain spells, so you would be able to learn all cleric spells of that level and only that level, because as a warmage, your spell knowledge isn't retroactive. Effectively, the strict reading gives you cleric 8ths and 9ths only.

I'm being facetious here, of course. The real answer is that this is an ambiguity in the rules, so it falls into the purview of page 6 of the DMG.

Often a situation will arise that isn’t explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved. When you come upon a situation that the rules don’t seem to cover, consider the following courses of action.
Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance.
There's a very obvious comparison here—all the traditional arcane classes learn granted domain spells (and cleric spells) the same way they learn all their other spells. So, following this extremely obvious precedent, RAW's guidelines lead us to the most commonly accepted ruling: warmages gain all the spells as spells known automatically. 💁

[AvatarVecna]

Rules Compendium's section on spontaneous casters unifies the spells known rules enough for me to be comfortable ruling that you get the domain as spells known the same way you get all the other spells on your list.

The strictest reading would actually be that warmages learn spells when they gain access to a new level of spells. Thus, when you gain the Good domain as a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1, you don't get any spells from it until soon after, when you gain access to 4ths, at which point you learn all the 4th level spells on the warmage list, and, since she "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell," this is her opportunity, so she could pick any one spell of 4th level or lower from the domain to learn.

Meanwhile, the 10th level ability allows you to "learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class you have." So, normally, you only learn warmage spells when you gain access to a new spell level. This feature allows you to also learn cleric spells, even though they're not on the warmage list, but doesn't otherwise change the way you gain spells, so you would be able to learn all cleric spells of that level and only that level, because as a warmage, your spell knowledge isn't retroactive. Effectively, the strict reading gives you cleric 8ths and 9ths only.

I'm being facetious here, of course. The real answer is that this is an ambiguity in the rules, so it falls into the purview of page 6 of the DMG.

There's a very obvious comparison here—all the traditional arcane classes learn granted domain spells (and cleric spells) the same way they learn all their other spells. So, following this extremely obvious precedent, RAW's guidelines lead us to the most commonly accepted ruling: warmages gain all the spells as spells known automatically. 💁

My point about the strict ruling was that the warmage "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell", but the warmage basically never has "an option to choose a new known spell". The warmage has points where she learns a batch of new spells for sure, but there is no picking and choosing about it. You might squint and look at it sideways and say "well, you chose to level up as warmage" or "well, you chose to advance your warmage casting", but that feels like it's stretching the definition to get around an unfriendly rule that was clearly not written with warmage and the like in mind.

It's hardly the reading I'd take as a DM, but it seems the strictest reading of the text to me.

[Psyren]

One compromise you might want to discuss with your GM - Pathfinder has a feat called Prestigious Spellcaster (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster/) that can be used to repair one level of lost casting from a PrC every time it's taken. Your GM might be more amenable to you using the class if you go with the table interpretation, then pay some of your precious feats for the privilege of making it full (or nearly-full) casting. Given that you'd become a full casting class, you should have plenty of feats to spare.


So, there are plenty of PrCs which are next to useless.

Sturgeon's Law :smalltongue:

[radthemad4]

Once you take the first level of Rainbow Servant, you can use Substitute Domain (Complete Champion) either via Extra Spell to add it to your list or by UMDing a wand of it, to swap out the Good Domain for a different one offered by your deity for a few days, which gives you a decent amount of versatility nine levels before you can hit the capstone.

[Karl Aegis]

Warmages don't learn all spells they have access to.:smallconfused:

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Warmages don't learn all spells they have access to.:smallconfused:Their spell list is their spells known. They can cast any spell on their list, depending on their max spell level, of course. Add spells to that list and they can cast them. A level in sand shaper, for instance, gives them every single sand shaper spell known.

The question is if adding domains to the warmage adds it to their spells known. By strictest RAW, no, but it wasn't written with them in mind, so it's the DM's call.

[Karl Aegis]

Their spell list is their spells known. They can cast any spell on their list, depending on their max spell level, of course. Add spells to that list and they can cast them. A level in sand shaper, for instance, gives them every single sand shaper spell known.

The question is if adding domains to the warmage adds it to their spells known. By strictest RAW, no, but it wasn't written with them in mind, so it's the DM's call.

Sand Shaper adds directly to spells known. Sand Shaper does not add to spell list. :smallconfused:

Warmages cast from their spells known. A special exception is given to Advanced Learning (Ex) class feature. At no point does the Warmage entry claim a Warmage casts from Spell List or all spells they have access to.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Sand Shaper adds directly to spells known. Sand Shaper does not add to spell list. :smallconfused:

Warmages cast from their spells known. A special exception is given to Advanced Learning (Ex) class feature. At no point does the Warmage entry claim a Warmage casts from Spell List or all spells they have access to.The class is very specific about having all spells on its list as spells known.


Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.

[NigelWalmsley]

Warmages cast from their spells known. A special exception is given to Advanced Learning (Ex) class feature. At no point does the Warmage entry claim a Warmage casts from Spell List or all spells they have access to.

As noted, that's not actually how it works. The Advanced Learning class feature adds the spell "to your list". It does not make a special exception, it is phrased in the exact way you would expect it to be phrased if Warmages cast all the spells on their spell list, because Warmages do in fact cast all the spells on their spell list.

[Chronos]

It's true that one of the principles in the rules is that text trumps table. It's also one of the principles in the rules, an even more fundamental principle, that correct material trumps typos. That's not always useful as a principle, because it's often not clear which of two disagreeing rules is the typo... but in this case, it's abundantly clear. The table, introduction, sample character, and translations into other languages all agree, and it's only one place that disagrees. Arguing that Rainbow Servant grants full casting progression is like arguing that the scorpion-tail whip from Sandstorm does 1d43 damage (1d33 for small).

And as an aside, why does everyone always mention the swordsage's starting skills, but not their level 13 and 17 BAB?

[Elves]

It's also one of the principles in the rules, an even more fundamental principle, that correct material trumps typos.

That's a meaningless sentence.

However I'm totally ready to admit that content matters. It's NOT just about blind enforcement of RAW. The scorpion whip is obviously out of wack with every other weapon in the game. Even in a case like the Martial Monk ACF in Dragon 310, which technically lets you take any fighter feat at 1st level without meeting prerequisites, it's clear what the RAI actually was, and I think you should use it. The difference in the case of rainbow servant is that the RAW version is cooler and more balanced than what they probably intended, which is why the fact that it is RAW should be embraced not stifled.


and translations into other languages all agree
Source? All I saw back when I looked this up was that the Portuguese version actually had the table conform with the text.

[NigelWalmsley]

The only relevant principle for answering the question "what do the rules say" is "what do the rules say". And since the rules say text trumps table, and the text says full progression, the class is full progression. Anything else is RAI dithering, and at that point the fact that full-progression Rainbow Servant is a more interesting and relevant option than 6/10 is as relevant as anything else.

[Karl Aegis]

The class is very specific about having all spells on its list as spells known.

You bolded some figurative language there. "He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." is the relevant line.


As noted, that's not actually how it works. The Advanced Learning class feature adds the spell "to your list". It does not make a special exception, it is phrased in the exact way you would expect it to be phrased if Warmages cast all the spells on their spell list, because Warmages do in fact cast all the spells on their spell list.

"He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." does not support your reading of the text. Advanced Learning (Ex) does not mention adding a spells known.

[NigelWalmsley]

"He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must." does not support your reading of the text. Advanced Learning (Ex) does not mention adding a spells known.

Yes, it doesn't. It adds it to his list. Which is his list of spells known. Are you suggesting that Advanced Learning is dysfunctional, or conceding? Because you're doing one of those two things, since there is no internally consistent interpretation of the rules where Advanced Learning works, but domains don't.

[wilphe]

I recall fluffwise Warmages learn all their spells when taking the first level of the class, because their training explicitly involves practicing the somatic components of spells they aren't able to cast yet...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

One neat thing about warmages is that the Versatile Spellcaster feat allows you to cast spells of levels you otherwise couldn't cast yet. Sanctum Spell does it too, I think. And they stack!

[Troacctid]

One neat thing about warmages is that the Versatile Spellcaster feat allows you to cast spells of levels you otherwise couldn't cast yet. Sanctum Spell does it too, I think. And they stack!
It doesn't, because you don't learn the spells until you gain access to spells of that level.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It doesn't, because you don't learn the spells until you gain access to spells of that level.See the post you just quoted.

[Troacctid]

See the post you just quoted.
???

Rules Compendium's section on spontaneous casters unifies the spells known rules enough for me to be comfortable ruling that you get the domain as spells known the same way you get all the other spells on your list.

The strictest reading would actually be that warmages learn spells when they gain access to a new level of spells. Thus, when you gain the Good domain as a Warmage 6/Rainbow Servant 1, you don't get any spells from it until soon after, when you gain access to 4ths, at which point you learn all the 4th level spells on the warmage list, and, since she "may select a domain spell to add to her spells known whenever she would have an option to choose a new known spell," this is her opportunity, so she could pick any one spell of 4th level or lower from the domain to learn.

Meanwhile, the 10th level ability allows you to "learn and cast spells from the cleric list, even if they don’t appear on the lists of any spellcasting class you have." So, normally, you only learn warmage spells when you gain access to a new spell level. This feature allows you to also learn cleric spells, even though they're not on the warmage list, but doesn't otherwise change the way you gain spells, so you would be able to learn all cleric spells of that level and only that level, because as a warmage, your spell knowledge isn't retroactive. Effectively, the strict reading gives you cleric 8ths and 9ths only.

I'm being facetious here, of course. The real answer is that this is an ambiguity in the rules, so it falls into the purview of page 6 of the DMG.

Often a situation will arise that isn’t explicitly covered by the rules. In such a situation, you need to provide guidance as to how it should be resolved. When you come upon a situation that the rules don’t seem to cover, consider the following courses of action.
Look to any similar situation that is covered in a rulebook. Try to extrapolate from what you see presented there and apply it to the current circumstance.
There's a very obvious comparison here—all the traditional arcane classes learn granted domain spells (and cleric spells) the same way they learn all their other spells. So, following this extremely obvious precedent, RAW's guidelines lead us to the most commonly accepted ruling: warmages gain all the spells as spells known automatically. 💁
Are you talking about my quote from the DMG?

[NigelWalmsley]

That interpretation also breaks Advanced Learning. If you only get the new spells when you get a new spell level, then you never get your Advanced Learning spells, because they're all of levels you already had access to.

Also, I don't see how that really conflicts with what Max is saying. If we do accept that "new spell level" is the only thing that gets you new spells, then why doesn't Versatile Spellcaster count for that?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Versatile Spellcaster allows you to expend two slots to cast spells one level higher. Warmages know any spell of a level they're capable of casting. And if V.S. makes you capable of casting spells one level higher than normal, then [insert logical conclusion here]...

Meanwhile, Sanctum Spell reduces the level of any spell cast outside your sanctum by 1.

[Troacctid]

VS doesn't make you capable of casting spells of one level higher, though.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

VS doesn't make you capable of casting spells of one level higher, though.Um... That's exactly what it does. That's all that it does.

[Crichton]

VS doesn't make you capable of casting spells of one level higher, though.


Um... That's exactly what it does. That's all that it does.

Looks to me like you two might be talking past each other a tad, without explaining your reasoning/logic.



At first glance, here's my thought:

A) VS lets you cast a spell one level higher than the 2 spell slots you expend, but it also requires that it be a spell you already know.
B) Warmages know all the spells on the Warmage list, up to the level of spell they're capable of casting, and don't learn/know the next higher level until they become capable of casting them.

So you've got a catch-22 situation: VS would let you cast the higher level spell, if you knew them, but Warmages don't know them until they become capable of casting them.


What's still in question is what happens if you somehow learn/know a spell of the next higher level via some other means. At that point, with VS, you can cast it, so maybe that would count as the condition for the Warmage to learn/know the next level of spells from the Warmage list?


Relevant rules quotes (emphasis mine):



You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.


When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list.

[wilphe]

Except that warmage class description in both MiH and CArc is that they "know" all their spells from the start of the career#

What they gain with experience is the spells slots to use them in

#Eclectic learning excepted.



It's similar to a first level wizard having a spell book with all known spells in it

[Crichton]

Except that warmage class description in both MiH and CArc is that they "know" all their spells from the start of the career#

What they gain with experience is the spells slots to use them in

#Eclectic learning excepted.



It's similar to a first level wizard having a spell book with all known spells in it



Care to share the actual text quote to support that? In my reading, the fluff text introduction to Warmage hints at it sort of vaguely, saying they drill and practice with spells they can't cast yet, but doesn't ever actually say they officially know them, in the rules sense, whereas the actual rules entry for the class, from page 12 of CArc, which I quoted in the post above, seems to clearly say they don't know their spells until they "gain access to a new level of spells"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

The warmage text says this:


Spells: A warmage casts arcane spells (the same type of spells available to sorcerers and wizards), which are drawn from the warmage spell list given below. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time the way a cleric or wizard must. When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells, he automatically knows all the spells for that level listed on the warmage's spell list. Essentially, his spell list is the same as his spells known list. Warmages also have the option of adding to their existing spell list through their advanced learning ability as they increase in level (see below). See page 90 for the warmage's spell list.

It says "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells"... Doesn't say anything about how, just that they gain access to a new level of them. And, whether we like it or not, Versatile Spellcaster allows one to cast spells of a level higher than what would otherwise be the highest level one could typically cast, even if it costs two lower level slots. So as soon as a warmage takes Versatile Spellcaster, he (or she, or it, or other) knows and can cast the next level of spell, as it's only "gains access to," nothing more or less.

At the very worst, taking Heighten Spell would cinch the deal, since you can cast Heightened versions of your highest level spells regardless of the ability to cast spells that would normally be on that level, thus activating the clause above and allowing you to cast spells of the next higher level.

[Crichton]

The warmage text says this:



It says "When a warmage gains access to a new level of spells"... Doesn't say anything about how, just that they gain access to a new level of them. And, whether we like it or not, Versatile Spellcaster allows one to cast spells of a level higher than what would otherwise be the highest level one could typically cast, even if it costs two lower level slots. So as soon as a warmage takes Versatile Spellcaster, he (or she, or it, or other) knows and can cast the next level of spell, as it's only "gains access to," nothing more or less.

At the very worst, taking Heighten Spell would cinch the deal, since you can cast Heightened versions of your highest level spells regardless of the ability to cast spells that would normally be on that level, thus activating the clause above and allowing you to cast spells of the next higher level.



Heighten might work, maybe? But VS by itself doesn't let you cast spells you don't know, and Warmages don't know/learn the next higher level of spells until they can cast them. Thus the chicken and egg issue we have here.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Heighten might work, maybe? But VS by itself doesn't let you cast spells you don't know, and Warmages don't know/learn the next higher level of spells until they can cast them. Thus the chicken and egg issue we have here....Maybe reread what I just said? Just being able to cast a higher level spell gives you knowledge of them, so that requirement fulfills itself when you take Versatile Spellcaster.

I don't even think Heighten Spell is necessary, as you can cast lower level spells using higher level slots, so you'll always have access to spells to cast from them.

[Crichton]

...Maybe reread what I just said? Just being able to cast a higher level spell gives you knowledge of them, so that requirement fulfills itself when you take Versatile Spellcaster.

I don't even think Heighten Spell is necessary, as you can cast lower level spells using higher level slots, so you'll always have access to spells to cast from them.
Setting aside the mildly snarky and unappreciated intro and getting back to a friendly and productive discussion:



That's just it though: You have to already know the spell for VS to enable you to cast it, and you don't yet know any, so you aren't yet able to cast a higher level spell, thus you don't trigger the condition for Warmage's Spells feature to make you learn them.


A level 1 Warmage with VS can't cast any level 2 spells, since he doesn't know any. Thus, he hasn't yet 'gained access to a new level of spells' and so he doesn't learn the level 2 Warmage spells, as per the Warmage 'Spells' rules. If he somehow did know a level 2 spell, he'd be able to use VS to cast it, and that could maybe be 'considered gaining access to a new level of spells', presumably.

That's still not totally ironclad RAW, though, since the rules text doesn't say anything as unambiguous and binding as "When a Warmage can cast any spell of the next higher level..." It leaves plenty of semantic wiggle room for a DM to say no, without altering or violating the text, in letter or in spirit. (Note that I'm not particularly disagreeing with you on this point, just pointing out that it would be equally valid by the letter of the rules text for a DM to rule the other way, too.)

But even assuming that your DM does agree (as do I) that the condition of 'gains access to a new level of spells' would in fact be met by the ability to cast any one spell of the next level, Versatile Spellcaster by itself doesn't let you do that unless you already know one.


Heighten Spell might, maybe get you around this, but it's still contingent on your DM agreeing with the ambiguity of the phrasing in your favor.

[Troacctid]

Crichton took the words right out of my mouth. If you subscribe to the reading that early-entry tricks trigger the next set of known spells, you still need a way to get a spell of that level to kick it off, because Versatile Spellcaster alone doesn't do it.

Heighten Spell is one possible way, maybe, but I would recommend a bloodline feat, as they add all the spells to your spells known list immediately, even if you can't cast spells of that level yet. You should be able to cast them early with Versatile Spellcaster, assuming your DM takes the more generous reading of the rules involved (which of course is not a given).

[Remuko]

I can only take a guess but I think what Maxi is saying is that VS gives you a virtual spell slot of a level above what you can normally cast by expending to lower spell slots. In most classes this is useless since you dont know any spells of the higher level. But Maxi is claiming that because of VS, you have this virtual spell slot (lets say its a lvl 2 one by expending two lvl 1 slots) and since you now "have access" to a second level slot, the class gives you access to the spells on the list of that level, just as if you had unlocked a 2nd level spell slot via level up.

If I'm correct, I can see the logic in it, and think its sound, even if not RAI. (and since RAI isnt what were discussing as far as I know...)

[Nifft]

I can only take a guess but I think what Maxi is saying is that VS gives you a virtual spell slot of a level above what you can normally cast by expending to lower spell slots. In most classes this is useless since you dont know any spells of the higher level. But Maxi is claiming that because of VS, you have this virtual spell slot (lets say its a lvl 2 one by expending two lvl 1 slots) and since you now "have access" to a second level slot, the class gives you access to the spells on the list of that level, just as if you had unlocked a 2nd level spell slot via level up.

If I'm correct, I can see the logic in it, and think its sound, even if not RAI. (and since RAI isnt what were discussing as far as I know...)

VS doesn't give you a virtual spell slot, it only allows you to cast a spell you know by expending two slots of a lower level.

If your guess about what Maxi means is correct, then Maxi is wrong about what VS does.

Of course, it's difficult to say, because ... well, you know ...

[MaxiDuRaritry]

If you're a level 1 warmage with Versatile Spellcaster, you have access to level 2 slots. If you have access to level 2 slots, warmage grants you knowledge of level 2 spells, because you know all of the spells of any level you can cast, and since you have access to level 2 slots, you can cast level 2 spells using them. If you have access to level 2 slots and know level 2 spells, you can cast level 2 spells.

[Nifft]

If you're a level 1 warmage with Versatile Spellcaster, you have access to level 2 slots. If you have access to level 2 slots, warmage grants you knowledge of level 2 spells, because you know all of the spells of any level you can cast, and since you have access to level 2 slots, you can cast level 2 spells using them. If you have access to level 2 slots and know level 2 spells, you can cast level 2 spells.

VS doesn't give you any new spell slots, so this is wrong.

What VS gives you is the ability to cast a spell in a new way (by expending 2x spell slots of -1 level).

There is no higher-level spell slot created. You just cast a spell you know in a slightly different way.

[Crichton]

If you're a level 1 warmage with Versatile Spellcaster, you have access to level 2 slots. If you have access to level 2 slots, warmage grants you knowledge of level 2 spells, because you know all of the spells of any level you can cast, and since you have access to level 2 slots, you can cast level 2 spells using them. If you have access to level 2 slots and know level 2 spells, you can cast level 2 spells.


VS doesn't give you any new spell slots, so this is wrong.

What VS gives you is the ability to cast a spell in a new way (by expending 2x spell slots of -1 level).

There is no higher-level spell slot created. You just cast a spell you know in a slightly different way.



In addition, VS is explicitly clear that it only works for level 2 spells that you already know. Since you don't already know any, you're completely unable to use VS for anything, until you do know some.


Also, there's no such thing as 'virtual slots' and VS doesn't give you any access at all to level 2 slots, in any way at all.

Fortunately for our Warmage, it's not the slots that count. So if you can find any way at all to know a level 2 spell early (such as the previously recommended bloodline feats, or maybe probably Heighten Spell though that's not quite as clear), then VS will become usable, and you can cast a level 2 spell (not from a level 2 slot, though, in any way). Presuming your DM agrees with that being enough to meet the qualification, your Warmage will then meet the conditions for learning all the level 2 Warmage spells.

[AvatarVecna]

VS doesn't give you any new spell slots, so this is wrong.

What VS gives you is the ability to cast a spell in a new way (by expending 2x spell slots of -1 level).

There is no higher-level spell slot created. You just cast a spell you know in a slightly different way.

Seconded.


You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher.

There's actually a much easier way to disprove that this combo works: are warmages spontaneous casters?

Versatile Spellcaster requires the "ability to spontaneously cast spells", but the only classes that get spontaneous casting by default definitions are clerics and druids (which can "lose" prepared spells to spontaneously cast cure/inflict/summon spells). There's no general definition of spontaneous casting in the player's handbook, and the only examples are classes where "spontaneous casting" works super-different from how warmages and sorcerers cast, therefore if you're using PH definitions, Warmages can't take Versatile Spellcaster at all.

But let's say you think that's BS, and everybody knows it's BS, and you need a rules quote that clarifies Warmages are in fact spontaneous, or at least generally defines "spontaneous casting" as something that looks like warmage casting. You probably turn to page 139 of the Rules Compendium:


Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.

Here it is, first lines of this section, clear as day: a spontaneous caster doesn't prepare spells, they cast spells known using spell slots that aren't assigned to particular spells. That's how sorcerer works, and that's how warmage works, clear as day. There's even a later section on the same page that mentions cleric/druid spontaneous casting as being a subset of spontaneous casting that is an exception to the general rules of how cleric/druid normally cast their spells, so that's extra confirmation.

...wait, what's this? Another section from the very same page?


LEARNING NEW SPELLS
Spontaneous casters gain spells by attaining levels in their class. They never gain spells any other way. When your spontaneous spellcaster gains a new level, consult the class table that details the number of spells the character knows. Select new spells known to fill your repertoire according to the restrictions for your class. Some spontaneous spellcasters know only a specific list of spells, and know all those spells, while others can choose with more flexibility.

OOPS.

[Karl Aegis]

Oops, indeed. Also consistent with the idea that Advanced Learning(Ex) adds to the Warmage's Spell List, but not the Warmage's Spells Known. The spell chosen can still be cast since the ability says you can, even without knowing the spell.

[MeeposFire]

Ah this brings back memories back when I used to be on the 3e char OP boards. Granted it also reminds me how happy I am to not deal with these problems anymore RAW arguments are just so not worth it anymore. Better to ask yourself as a DM is do you feel like this is something you want in the game and how would you like it to work. IN this case though I am not a fan of it either way. Waiting until level 16 to get what you actually want out of a character is awful as a play experience (unless you start at level 16) and so I would not recommend it even if I was in a game that gave this PRC a full 10 level caster progression if your reason to do it is to get full cleric casting.