Re-imagining Armor to be more realistic

[PallentisLunam]

Armor
Cost
AC Bonus
Max Dex
ACP
ASF %
Speed
(30 ft.) (20 ft.)
Weight1



Light Armor


Heavy Clothing
5 gp
1
8
0
5
30 ft.
20 ft.
5 lbs.


Helmet
10 gp
2
6
0
10
30 ft.
20 ft.
2 lbs.


Gambeson
25 gp
3
5
-1
15
30 ft.
20 ft.
10 lbs


Mail
100 gp
4
4
-2
20
30 ft.
20 ft.
20 lbs.



Medium Armor


Brigantine
15 gp
3
4
-3
20
20 ft.
15 ft.
25 lbs.


Scale/Lamellar
50 gp
4
3
-4
25
20 ft.
15 ft.
30 lbs.


Splint
150 gp
5
2
-5
30
20 ft.
15 ft.
35 lbs.


Banded/Segmented
200 gp
5
3
-4
25
20 ft.
15 ft.
35 lbs.



Heavy Armor


Breastplate
200 gp
6
2
-6
35
20 ft.2
15 ft.2
40 lbs.


Field Plate
250 gp
7
1
-7
40
20 ft.2
15 ft.2
50 lbs


Full Plate
600 gp
8
0
-7
40
20 ft.2
15 ft.2
50 lbs


Fitted Harness
1500 gp
8
1
-6
35
20 ft.2
15 ft.2
50 lbs



Shields4


Buckler
15 gp
1
-
0
5
-
-
2 lbs.


Light Natural
3 gp
1
-
-1
5
-
-
5 lbs.


Light Metal
9 gp
1
-
-1
5
-
-
6 lbs.


Heavy Natural
7 gp
2
-
-2
15
-
-
10 lbs.


Heavy Metal
20 gp
2
-
-2
15
-
-
15 lbs.


Tower/Pavise
30 gp
43
2
-10
50
-
-
30 lbs.


Shield Spikes
+10 gp
-
-
-
-
-
-
+2 lbs.


1. Weight figures are for armor sized to fit Medium characters. Armor fitted for Small characters weighs half as much, and armor fitted for Large characters weighs twice as much.
2. When running in heavy armor, you move only triple your speed, not quadruple.
3. A tower shield can instead grant you cover.
4. Hand is not free to cast spells, unless the character has a class feature which allows them to ignore the ASF chance incurred by a shield.



Light Armor


This category represents flexible, breathable protection.

Heavy Clothing:
Anything from a heavy winter coat, to a blacksmith's apron. This category of armor hardly rates the name, but it's better than nothing.

Helmet:
The first piece of real armor any adventurer should get. All heavier armors include a helmet that gets progressively more enclosed and protective along the way.

Gambeson:
Also known as Padded Armor or a Padded Jack, this type of armor is made from layers of tightly woven cloth worn over the torso and arms and belted around the waist, falling to about mid-thigh. This type of armor is also representative of layers of treated animal hides.

Mail:
Worn over a Gambeson, this type of armor consists of small rings, forged and riveted together to form a protective mesh that can withstand cuts and thrusts from many kinds of weapons while the padding from the Gambeson serves to absorb the impact force imparted by an attack.

Medium Armor


This category begins to incorporate solid pieces of iron or steel, generally in an unarticulated fashion

Brigantine:
Also known as a coat of plates this type of armor consists of small plates set close together and riveted to some type of backing garment.

Scale/Lamellar:
This type of armor consist of small overlapping plates woven together with some type of durable material such as leather or rawhide.

Splint:
This type of armor consists of long vertical strips of metal running the length of the wearer's torso.

Banded/Segmented:
This type of armor consists of horizontal bands of armor that encase the wearers shoulders, torso, and hips, featuring semi-articulated pivots to allow for a fuller range of motion.

Heavy Armor


This category contains the most comprehensive and advanced mundane protection available, utilizing large, interlocking plates of tempered steel.

Breastplate:
A front and back curved steel cuirass designed to absorb and deflect blows from all but the most determined and specialized opponents and weapons. Includes an arming doublet with mail sewn into the armpits and attached as a skirt. Worn with greaves and vambraces to protect the lower limbs.

Field Plate:
Also known as Half-Plate, more interlocking than a Breast Plate but less coverage than Full Plate

Full Plate:
The very best armor available. In fact it is several layers of armor attached over specially made garments with Gambeson and Mail over the joints beneath fully articulated plates.

Fitted Harness:
Full Plate made and adjusted specifically for the creature wearing it. Full Harness is not actually a different kind of armor, instead it represents the time and skill needed to perfectly match a suit of Plate to its owner. Fitted Harness is merely Full Plate to any other similarly sized and shaped creature, other than the one to whom it is fitted.

Shields

Buckler
This small metal shield is held in your fist. You cannot use your hand for anything else while wielding a buckler. If you take the fight defensively or total defense actions, or use the Combat Expertise Feat the shield bonus provided by your buckler increases by 1.

Shield, Light, Natural or Metal
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A light shield’s weight lets you carry other items in that hand, although you cannot use weapons with it.
Natural or Metal
Natural and Metal shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks.

Shield, Heavy, Natural or Metal
You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.
Natural or Metal
Wooden and steel shields offer the same basic protection, though they respond differently to special attacks.

Shield Bash Attacks
You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See Table: Weapons for the damage dealt by a shield bash. Used this way, a heavy shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat a heavy shield as a one-handed weapon. If you use your shield as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next action (usually until the next round). An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.

Rule Changes:

Armor as Conversion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm)

All armor imposes a penalty on spot and listen checks equal to half of its Armor Class Bonus, rounded down.

A character who attempts to fight in armor they are not proficient with becomes fatigued after a number of rounds equal to their Constitution Modifier.

[Elkad]

You just changed the names.
Still no reason to wear anything but light armor as soon as you can afford dex goodies.

[liquidformat]

I would tend to agree with Elkad here, you really haven't done anything that makes armor different or better. The issue with armor as it is presented in D&D is that it is a static value and you really don't gain enough bonuses from medium or heavy armor to justify the downsides as you gain levels so from a cost benefit perspective heavy armor is only useful at low levels with a low dex bonus and quickly drops off as magic equipment better offsets the bonuses without the negative effects of medium and heavy armor. Mithral chain shirt and breastplate are the gold standard for a reason, with a few people also grabbing mithral full plate.

You should take a look at Armor as DR (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) that in fact does make armor more realistic, adding dr as a function of armor would make sense and make it more realistic. Maybe adjusting the dr based on type of weapon, plate is great against slashing and piercing but not against bludgeoning for example. Also it might be worth taking a look at character defense bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm).

Maybe try to come up with a mechanic that incorporates armor giving an increased bonus to ac with level and getting some dr on top. You could break armor down to the four defense bonus categories assigning them as unarmored, lightly armor, mildly, and heavily armored. each category has examples of what your armor level should be from an aesthetic point of view as well as its effect on your Max Dex, ACP, ASF%, speed, DR, and weight and gives you progressive armor bonus as you level.

From a table as is point of view here are my thoughts:

Heavy Clothing shouldn't apply a listen and spot penalty, gambesonshouldn't have a helmet and there by no listen/spot penalty, questionably mail shouldn't automatically have a helm either. Making Helms and arm guards not standard on light armor makes a decent amount of sense as a rule of thumb.

I find your handling of the helmet to be strange, why would it have a max dex at all? I would instead get rid of the max dex for helmet, drop ASF% to 5; drop ac to 1 but look at applying a bonus to AC against crits or something.

Looking at actual full plate 'Fitted and harnessed' should probably have a better Max dex, ACP, and ASF%. To be frank from my understanding of actual fullplate that has been properly fitted it should probably be closer to in game mithral fullplate.

[el minster]

The spot and listen penalties are ludicrous.

[liquidformat]

The spot and listen penalties are ludicrous.

I would partially disagree, have you ever warn a motorcycle/ski helmet before? It definitely has a decent effect on your field of vision and what you can hear. Heck even wearing something like wrestling headgear makes it real hard to hear anything that's why the refs hit you with a rolled up towel while blowing a whistle...

[el minster]

Realistic doesn't mean fun to play.

[tyckspoon]

I would partially disagree, have you ever warn a motorcycle/ski helmet before? It definitely has a decent effect on your field of vision and what you can hear. Heck even wearing something like wrestling headgear makes it real hard to hear anything that's why the refs hit you with a rolled up towel while blowing a whistle...

If the Spot/Listen penalties are based on the assumption that heftier armors have a heftier helmet, you could just.. take the helmet off. 3.5 does not have hit locations or called shot rules; there is literally no mechanical reason to wear a helmet unless it does something magical in itself, and not wearing it largely removes the justification for these penalties.

(Yes, it's dumb as heck in real world logic, but when your combat system is based on attack bonus to hit rolls doing damage against the nebulous pile of abstractions that is HP and Armor Class, you've kind of started from a point where trying to make things 'realistic' is probably only going to hurt playability anyways.)

[el minster]

If the Spot/Listen penalties are based on the assumption that heftier armors have a heftier helmet, you could just.. take the helmet off. 3.5 does not have hit locations or called shot rules; there is literally no mechanical reason to wear a helmet unless it does something magical in itself, and not wearing it largely removes the justification for these penalties.

(Yes, it's dumb as heck in real world logic, but when your combat system is based on attack bonus to hit rolls doing damage against the nebulous pile of abstractions that is HP and Armor Class, you've kind of started from a point where trying to make things 'realistic' is probably only going to hurt playability anyways.)

This is an excelant point.

[Vizzerdrix]

A light shield offers as much protection as a winter coat? That just feels wrong. Then again, shields have always been underwhelming.

[liquidformat]

If the Spot/Listen penalties are based on the assumption that heftier armors have a heftier helmet, you could just.. take the helmet off. 3.5 does not have hit locations or called shot rules; there is literally no mechanical reason to wear a helmet unless it does something magical in itself, and not wearing it largely removes the justification for these penalties.

(Yes, it's dumb as heck in real world logic, but when your combat system is based on attack bonus to hit rolls doing damage against the nebulous pile of abstractions that is HP and Armor Class, you've kind of started from a point where trying to make things 'realistic' is probably only going to hurt playability anyways.)

hence partially disagree, it depends on how much weight you are putting into 'more realistic' and what that weight implies.

For the most part between max dex, acp acf%, speed, and weight you have already included all the downsides you should have for armor, especially since armor takes up the body slot already forcing it to take up the head slot too with no actual bonus and a decent detractor seems pretty mean and cruel just making medium and heavy armor suck more for no reason. Granted their is a 'realistic' reason to do that. I personally think if you are going to add in that 'realistic' penalty you should also be including some 'realistic' bonuses like bonuses against crit confirmation, and saving throw bonuses against effects like blind/deaf, daze, and so on. That would make helmets something interesting and useful.

[PallentisLunam]

You just changed the names.
Still no reason to wear anything but light armor as soon as you can afford dex goodies.

Names are important, not everybody plays the ultra optimized kind of D&D popular on these forums, and yes you should wear the best protection you can while getting the most out of your dex score, but not every character can afford to crank their Dex


You should take a look at Armor as DR (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/armorAsDamageReduction.htm) that in fact does make armor more realistic, adding dr as a function of armor would make sense and make it more realistic. Maybe adjusting the dr based on type of weapon, plate is great against slashing and piercing but not against bludgeoning for example. Also it might be worth taking a look at character defense bonus (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/defenseBonus.htm).

Maybe try to come up with a mechanic that incorporates armor giving an increased bonus to ac with level and getting some dr on top. You could break armor down to the four defense bonus categories assigning them as unarmored, lightly armor, mildly, and heavily armored. each category has examples of what your armor level should be from an aesthetic point of view as well as its effect on your Max Dex, ACP, ASF%, speed, DR, and weight and gives you progressive armor bonus as you level.

From a table as is point of view here are my thoughts:

Heavy Clothing shouldn't apply a listen and spot penalty, gambesonshouldn't have a helmet and there by no listen/spot penalty, questionably mail shouldn't automatically have a helm either. Making Helms and arm guards not standard on light armor makes a decent amount of sense as a rule of thumb.

I find your handling of the helmet to be strange, why would it have a max dex at all? I would instead get rid of the max dex for helmet, drop ASF% to 5; drop ac to 1 but look at applying a bonus to AC against crits or something.

Looking at actual full plate 'Fitted and harnessed' should probably have a better Max dex, ACP, and ASF%. To be frank from my understanding of actual fullplate that has been properly fitted it should probably be closer to in game mithral fullplate.

I forgot to include that I'm going with the Armor as Conversion (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm) variant rule. And while I would like to have multiple types of damage that interact with AC in their own ways, I nor my players are computers and table top combat is already slow enough without adding several charts and matrices on top. I've had to settle for giving certain weapons an Armor Piercing quality that bypasses the Conversion rule as long as the weapon has an enhancement bonus equal to or greater than the armor's.

I do think some kind of crit deflection chance is called for based on armor categorization. Maybe just that all armor has the appropriate Fortification quality by weight. I like to incorporate the Pathfinder Fighter's Armor training into classes where it fits the feel of the class.

As for your direct feed back:

Heavy Clothing does not have a spot or listen penalty since .5 rounded down is 0
I'll think about the helmets not included on light armor
As for a max dex on a helmet, the head is the primary target in most armed martial arts, and while putting something heavy and hard on it lets you take hits better it should certainly slow a character down in their bobbing and weaving
That's what masterwork is for. I house rule that it is +1 Max Dex and ACP reduced by 1


The spot and listen penalties are ludicrous.

Realistic doesn't mean fun to play.

Thank you for your wonderfully helpful input.


I would partially disagree, have you ever warn a motorcycle/ski helmet before? It definitely has a decent effect on your field of vision and what you can hear. Heck even wearing something like wrestling headgear makes it real hard to hear anything that's why the refs hit you with a rolled up towel while blowing a whistle...

I own several nice, modern, light, motorcycle helmets which are by their very nature designed to allow for maximum vision. I have also watched lots of content discussing historical armor and seen that full helmets are none of those things. You're looking through slits and holes


If the Spot/Listen penalties are based on the assumption that heftier armors have a heftier helmet, you could just.. take the helmet off. 3.5 does not have hit locations or called shot rules; there is literally no mechanical reason to wear a helmet unless it does something magical in itself, and not wearing it largely removes the justification for these penalties.

(Yes, it's dumb as heck in real world logic, but when your combat system is based on attack bonus to hit rolls doing damage against the nebulous pile of abstractions that is HP and Armor Class, you've kind of started from a point where trying to make things 'realistic' is probably only going to hurt playability anyways.)

We use a set of called shot rules at my table, along with other house rules that try to mitigate the idea of "everything is just a big blob of hit points none of which matter in the least except the very last one." We all find it quite playable and enjoyable. The things that hurt playability at my table tend to be when people try to claim "this is dumb as heck, but the rules say it works, despite all the laws of physics, logic, and common sense" although that might be an issue of immersion more than playability.

Some kind of don/doff helmet or raise and lower visor mechanic does seem reasonable though.


A light shield offers as much protection as a winter coat? That just feels wrong. Then again, shields have always been underwhelming.

I think this might be more of a mismatch in what is envisioned by a light shield. I think of a light natural shield as something like an Amerindian hide shield or an African wicker shield while a light metal shield would be something like a small targe. And metal means, incorporating any amount of metal really, rather than being all metal as it is generally imagined.

A heavy natural shield would be something like a viking round shield, rawhide rim and no boss, and a heavy metal shield would be a Greek Hoplon.

Perhaps a shield should give some additional bonus vs ranged attacks or AoOs


hence partially disagree, it depends on how much weight you are putting into 'more realistic' and what that weight implies.

For the most part between max dex, acp acf%, speed, and weight you have already included all the downsides you should have for armor, especially since armor takes up the body slot already forcing it to take up the head slot too with no actual bonus and a decent detractor seems pretty mean and cruel just making medium and heavy armor suck more for no reason. Granted their is a 'realistic' reason to do that. I personally think if you are going to add in that 'realistic' penalty you should also be including some 'realistic' bonuses like bonuses against crit confirmation, and saving throw bonuses against effects like blind/deaf, daze, and so on. That would make helmets something interesting and useful.

Just like with boots and gauntlets, a helmet can be swapped out for a magic version without decreasing the armor's effectiveness.

Bonuses against status effects or gaze attacks make sense. It's certainly harder for a Flare spell to dazzle someone who can't see it very well.

[Psyren]

I would partially disagree, have you ever warn a motorcycle/ski helmet before? It definitely has a decent effect on your field of vision and what you can hear. Heck even wearing something like wrestling headgear makes it real hard to hear anything that's why the refs hit you with a rolled up towel while blowing a whistle...

That might happen if *I* wore a motorcycle helmet, but *I'm* not a heroic warrior in a fantasy roleplaying game. Can we just assume that a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin figured out a way to not completely cripple their ability to notice danger while wearing a helmet?

[PallentisLunam]

That might happen if *I* wore a motorcycle helmet, but *I'm* not a heroic warrior in a fantasy roleplaying game. Can we just assume that a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin figured out a way to not completely cripple their ability to notice danger while wearing a helmet?

We could. We could also assume that they figured out a way to never miss or never get hit, but, that would not be terribly realistic.

[InvisibleBison]

How is this more realistic? Real armor doesn't make you harder to hit; it prevents hits from damaging you.

[SirNibbles]

How is this more realistic? Real armor doesn't make you harder to hit; it prevents hits from damaging you.

Which is why touch AC remains the same. Hitting you is just as easy. Hitting in the gaps where your armour won't completely nullify the damage is harder now, hence the higher AC (lower hit chance).

__

Either way, I don't think this exercise is really necessary, and this is coming from someone who tried to assign stats for fetuses.

[PallentisLunam]

How is this more realistic? Real armor doesn't make you harder to hit; it prevents hits from damaging you.

And AC is not just a measure of how hard you are to make contact with. It is an abstraction of how difficult you are to damage. This is what a touch AC is for. Also I'm using the Armor as Conversion variant rule.

[Psyren]

We could. We could also assume that they figured out a way to never miss or never get hit, but, that would not be terribly realistic.

If realism is your be-all end-all, you should also be throwing in percent chance for sweat to get in your eyes and blind you mid-fight, or for blood on your hands to make you lose your grip on your sword. Those would both be pretty realistic, but they wouldn't improve the game - and neither does this.

[PallentisLunam]

If realism is your be-all end-all, you should also be throwing in percent chance for sweat to get in your eyes and blind you mid-fight, or for blood on your hands to make you lose your grip on your sword. Those would both be pretty realistic, but they wouldn't improve the game - and neither does this.

Pretty sure those kinds of things are exactly the randomness represented by rolling a d20.

Realism isn't the goal of the game, entertainment is. For me and my table certain elements of realism add to entertainment, so they do, in fact, improve the game, thanks.

[AlienFromBeyond]

What part of this is realistic considering you have kept the absurd speed penalties, giant ACP, and ridiculous item weights?

[Kayblis]

What I see from it:
1) The attempt at 'realism' seems to be based on pseudorealism and pop culture's idea of what was 'realistic', just like longbows being made for physically weak people to use or warhammers weighing 50lbs.

2) There seems to be houserules for each special thing, and we can't guess those. As mentioned, helmets by themselves are useless unless they add a bonus, but there seems to be an unmentioned houserule for that, which changes the dynamic considerably. What other houserules are in play?

3) Full-plates weigh between 30 and 50lbs. Other heavy armors also weigh considerably less. They don't actually limit movement even half as much as D&D assumes, because it operates on the pop-culture meme of a full-plated warrior being basically a statue. The fact you just changed names and not the important values means you haven't really changed any mechanics. As an extra, for some reason, Armor is now the most efficient way of making a character Fatigued without save or direct magic. All you got to do is force an armor into someone that isn't proficient, which is not hard with magic means. The time he'd take to remove said armor is much larger than the few seconds it takes to become fatigued. This is the only thing I'll call absolute bull**** in here, no sugarcoating.

[Blackhawk748]

Gonna agree with the general consensus here, the only good armors are still all the Lights, the Fitted Harness and the Banded. Everything else is only used for budgetary reasons at low levels or because they found it, at low levels.

I'd also agree that Armor as DR is much better for realism, as that's what armor does, reduces damage.

And as someone who owns a suit of Lamellar armor and a decent Nasal helm to go with it, a -2 to Spot and Listen is just plain silly.


I would partially disagree, have you ever warn a motorcycle/ski helmet before? It definitely has a decent effect on your field of vision and what you can hear. Heck even wearing something like wrestling headgear makes it real hard to hear anything that's why the refs hit you with a rolled up towel while blowing a whistle...

Yes, but a nasal helm does absolutely nothing to your ability to hear or see. This is incredibly dependant on the design of the helmet and should probably be discarded unless you wanna have like 90 helmet designs.


I own several nice, modern, light, motorcycle helmets which are by their very nature designed to allow for maximum vision. I have also watched lots of content discussing historical armor and seen that full helmets are none of those things. You're looking through slits and holes


Are we talking Late Medieval and early Renescainsse helmets like on Full plate or are we talking the "bucket helmet"? Cuz I would happily call a Roman helmet a "full helmet" and it's got pretty decent visibility and specific modifications to let you hear fine.

So as I said, it's incredibly variable depending on the helmet type.


What part of this is realistic considering you have kept the absurd speed penalties, giant ACP, and ridiculous item weights?

Thank you, I didn't wanna be the one to say it. If you're going for realism armor reduces your endurance far more than it would reduce your ability to move. Properly fitted Full Plate lets people be very maneuverable, it just makes you get tired faster.

[PallentisLunam]

Wow, I guess Covid has everybody in a grouchy mood. Hey, do you guys think if I keep the conversation going long enough I can get a second mod in here to tell me about how I'm having bad fun and ruining D&D?


What part of this is realistic considering you have kept the absurd speed penalties, giant ACP, and ridiculous item weights?

Not so sure any of that is really all that absurd or ridiculous.

The tactical speed reduction isn't all that odd. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I've tried running in a weighted vest and it certainly effects how quickly I can start and stop or control my momentum. Add to that certain styles of armored footwear make walking difficult depending on how the armor is secured to the shoe. As for ACP, depending on the situation I see your point. I mean Balance shouldn't be effected as much as Jump or Climb and Hide really depends on the description of the armor, but it's not like a 20-30 pound handicap on physical activities is anything to sniff at. And when it comes to item weights I'm not so sure they are ridiculous. Finding accurate numbers for period pieces can be rather difficult and even if you get some sort of comprehensive museum inventory those numbers are often for single pieces rather than whole suits and very often don't include the padding or arming garments that would have to have been worn in addition.


What I see from it:
1) The attempt at 'realism' seems to be based on pseudorealism and pop culture's idea of what was 'realistic', just like longbows being made for physically weak people to use or warhammers weighing 50lbs.

2) There seems to be houserules for each special thing, and we can't guess those. As mentioned, helmets by themselves are useless unless they add a bonus, but there seems to be an unmentioned houserule for that, which changes the dynamic considerably. What other houserules are in play?

3) Full-plates weigh between 30 and 50lbs. Other heavy armors also weigh considerably less. They don't actually limit movement even half as much as D&D assumes, because it operates on the pop-culture meme of a full-plated warrior being basically a statue. The fact you just changed names and not the important values means you haven't really changed any mechanics. As an extra, for some reason, Armor is now the most efficient way of making a character Fatigued without save or direct magic. All you got to do is force an armor into someone that isn't proficient, which is not hard with magic means. The time he'd take to remove said armor is much larger than the few seconds it takes to become fatigued. This is the only thing I'll call absolute bull**** in here, no sugarcoating.

1) Not really sure what you're basing that on, but you are correct I'm not aiming for 100% realistic because that would be more difficult to model and play. I am aiming for more realism in certain aspects. Not absolute realism.

2) Let me just enumerate every house rule my table has adopted over the years so that you can perfectly misunderstand the situation. Hmm, I think not.

3) Oh wow, well if we're not sugarcoating anything, then let me just say you haven't got a clue. You have no idea what the rules about armor proficiency actually say if you think that making a character fatigued after a few rounds would be game breaking. Leaving aside the gem of "the most efficient way of making a character Fatigued without magic is to force them into armor by using magic," let's look at what could be done to a character, completely RAW, by forcing them into armor:


You could instantly give any Arcane spell caster a 50% miscast chance, regardless of proficiency
You could give any character a large penalty to several active skills, potentially all but guaranteeing a drowning, regardless of proficiency
You could absolutely shut down a wide array of class features, regardless of proficiency
You could potentially cause a Paladin to Fall, depending on how dickish your DM was
If the character is not proficient with the armor you could impose a +25% penalty on all skill checks that involve moving and Attack Rolls

And you think that becoming fatigued after a round or two is the cherry on top that will push this situation over into the 'cheesy enough to become a common tactic' category? *dies laughing*



Gonna agree with the general consensus here, the only good armors are still all the Lights, the Fitted Harness and the Banded. Everything else is only used for budgetary reasons at low levels or because they found it, at low levels.

I'd also agree that Armor as DR is much better for realism, as that's what armor does, reduces damage.

And as someone who owns a suit of Lamellar armor and a decent Nasal helm to go with it, a -2 to Spot and Listen is just plain silly.

Yes, but a nasal helm does absolutely nothing to your ability to hear or see. This is incredibly dependant on the design of the helmet and should probably be discarded unless you wanna have like 90 helmet designs.

Are we talking Late Medieval and early Renescainsse helmets like on Full plate or are we talking the "bucket helmet"? Cuz I would happily call a Roman helmet a "full helmet" and it's got pretty decent visibility and specific modifications to let you hear fine.

So as I said, it's incredibly variable depending on the helmet type.

Thank you, I didn't wanna be the one to say it. If you're going for realism armor reduces your endurance far more than it would reduce your ability to move. Properly fitted Full Plate lets people be very maneuverable, it just makes you get tired faster.

I mean there is a certain lack of realism in assuming that all of these armors are available and in use at the same, that being said breaking them into categories of proficiency does kind of lend itself to only the very best being used after a certain point, and I'm okay with that.

This is why the Armor as Conversion rule is in use

Even with a nasal helm, you don't just put it on like a baseball cap. It was generally worn with additional padding and some type of neck armor, such as a padded or mail coif which did cover the ears. And even the term nasal helm has room for eye and cheek guards which can impede vision
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It's also a question of how easily and quickly someone wearing said gear could look around. As previously mentioned I'll probably work up some sort of don/doff helmet mechanic and so the penalty would only apply in actual combat rather than all the time.

Even properly fitted you would be forced to move more carefully in many kinds of armor and, once again if you can't see as well you're less likely to go sprinting around. And I find it hard to argue that loading up on weight, properly distributed or not, wouldn't effect speed as well as endurance. But see again my use of the Pathfinder Fighter's Armor Training Class feature.

[Aotrs Commander]

I am aiming for more realism in certain aspects. Not absolute realism.


A simulation is only as accurate as the least accurate component.

D&D is a highly abstracted system. If you want somethat TENDS towards more realism in simulation a base (which was one if its intended design goals), seriously look at Rolemaster.

[PallentisLunam]

Why not. Thanks for the tip.

[Blackhawk748]

Even with a nasal helm, you don't just put it on like a baseball cap. It was generally worn with additional padding and some type of neck armor, such as a padded or mail coif which did cover the ears. And even the term nasal helm has room for eye and cheek guards which can impede vision
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2F236x%2F70%2F76%2F5 2%2F7076526bdd15179ace15b99ee30557e0--viking-helmet-viking-age.jpg
It's also a question of how easily and quickly someone wearing said gear could look around. As previously mentioned I'll probably work up some sort of don/doff helmet mechanic and so the penalty would only apply in actual combat rather than all the time.

Even properly fitted you would be forced to move more carefully in many kinds of armor and, once again if you can't see as well you're less likely to go sprinting around. And I find it hard to argue that loading up on weight, properly distributed or not, wouldn't effect speed as well as endurance. But see again my use of the Pathfinder Fighter's Armor Training Class feature.

Yes, I know. I own one and wore it quite regularly while LARPing, and we're talking 12 hour stretches here. It does not meaningfully inpact ones ability to see or hear, even the helmet you put up doesn't as the cheek guards are close enough that the only messing it does with your peripheral is at the absolute edge and is fairly minor.

Ditto for a coif. A friend ones one and has never had issues hearing or seeing while wearing it. I really think you are seriously overkilling how much certain helmet types inpact your ability to see and hear.

[PallentisLunam]

Yes, I know. I own one and wore it quite regularly while LARPing, and we're talking 12 hour stretches here. It does not meaningfully inpact ones ability to see or hear, even the helmet you put up doesn't as the cheek guards are close enough that the only messing it does with your peripheral is at the absolute edge and is fairly minor.

Ditto for a coif. A friend ones one and has never had issues hearing or seeing while wearing it. I really think you are seriously overkilling how much certain helmet types inpact your ability to see and hear.

Perhaps, but then again everything from a coif or a nasal to the most enclosed great helm ever made lands between -1 and -4 and I'm still getting crap over the idea that it would cause any trouble at all.

[Kayblis]

The tactical speed reduction isn't all that odd. I know it's not exactly the same thing, but I've tried running in a weighted vest and it certainly effects how quickly I can start and stop or control my momentum.


Starting off, you're a normal person with no actual training. Saying that a warrior with years of experience MUST be considerably slower because you wore a weighted vest once and it wasn't that easy is laughable.



1) Not really sure what you're basing that on, but you are correct I'm not aiming for 100% realistic because that would be more difficult to model and play. I am aiming for more realism in certain aspects. Not absolute realism.

If you're changing something to be more realistic, you should at least try to base it on reality. I'm not very inclined to say there has been a realistic change at all, actually. Just some nerfs and kicking people more for using armor they're not proficient, which tbh isn't a concern in the system for the amount of punishment you already take.



2) Let me just enumerate every house rule my table has adopted over the years so that you can perfectly misunderstand the situation. Hmm, I think not.

That's actually not irrelevant mate. You have houserules that change considerably how armor works, and we can't guess them. Of course you don't have to list your specific dragon-mating-with-human houserule or anything like that, I was just asking for the things that are pertinent to the topic, like the called shots thing. The changes by themselves, assuming the base system, add weird penalties for no reason.



3) Oh wow, well if we're not sugarcoating anything, then let me just say you haven't got a clue. You have no idea what the rules about armor proficiency actually say if you think that making a character fatigued after a few rounds would be game breaking. Leaving aside the gem of "the most efficient way of making a character Fatigued without magic is to force them into armor by using magic," let's look at what could be done to a character, completely RAW, by forcing them into armor:
[List]
And you think that becoming fatigued after a round or two is the cherry on top that will push this situation over into the 'cheesy enough to become a common tactic' category? *dies laughing*


"Oi mate, put that cloth jacket on" and the target is instantly fatigued if he has no Con bonus. Command-like spells that order someone nonproficient to put a light armor/helmet on are insta-fatigue if he has no Con bonus, or 2-round effects if he has to take it off afterwards to escape no-save fatigue a round or two later. This is not "I cast Major Creation and Fabricate to make full-plate armor around him" or any bull like that, this is a simple bluff check, or a simple 1st-level spell to coerce. There's a reason I said no direct magic. Don't assume people can only take penalties from full-plate. Don't balance around the full-plate alone. What you're doing is turning a heavier-than-normal cloth(not even leather yet) into an unwearable piece for most of the population. Same for a safety hat. How do you like that for your realism?



I mean there is a certain lack of realism in assuming that all of these armors are available and in use at the same, that being said breaking them into categories of proficiency does kind of lend itself to only the very best being used after a certain point, and I'm okay with that.

You can work with limited demand for even mundane items, but at that point I'd ask you why are you using one of the most high-magic and high-fantasy systems around for a low-magic, low resources 'realistic' game. This just doesn't add up.

[PallentisLunam]

Starting off, you're a normal person with no actual training. Saying that a warrior with years of experience MUST be considerably slower because you wore a weighted vest once and it wasn't that easy is laughable.

"Oi mate, put that cloth jacket on" and the target is instantly fatigued if he has no Con bonus. Command-like spells that order someone nonproficient to put a light armor on are insta-fatigue if he has no Con bonus, or 2-round effects if he has to take it off afterwards to escape no-save fatigue a round or two later. This is not "I cast Major Creation and Fabricate to make full-plate armor around him" or any bull like that, this is a simple bluff check, or a simple 1st-level spell to coerce. There's a reason I said no direct magic. Don't assume people can only take penalties from full-plate. Don't balance around the full-plate alone. What you're doing is turning a heavier-than-normal cloth(not even leather yet) into an unwearable piece for most of the population. Same for a safety hat. How do you like that for your realism?

You can work with limited demand for even mundane items, but at that point I'd ask you why are you using one of the most high-magic and high-fantasy systems around for a low-magic, low resources 'realistic' game. This just doesn't add up.

I find it interesting that you know so much about me from me saying that I use a weighted vest...

I said people who fight in armor they aren't proficient with get fatigued. Fighting is very strenuous work, plus adrenaline, plus injury. People, even trained fighters, get gassed fighting all but naked, unarmed. Armor proficiency is basically shorthand for physical conditioning, barring outliers like Monks. And heavy clothing means things like a greatcoat not your hoodie.

Once again you don't know the rules, since light armor takes a minute to put on, 30 seconds to put on quickly, and still the only thing you can argue about is the fatigue. The idea of compelling someone to wear armor under the standard rule set carries that entire list, spell failure, ACP, loss of class features, and to hit penalties, if you could get some sort of compulsion to stick for long enough to make it happen. Even heavy armor would take a full minute with help. But, I have yet to hear of the campaign where the druid lost her magic because the DM had an NPC charm her and force her to wear a chain shirt or where the wizard got knocked out of a fight while he fiddled with his wardrobe.

I don't know. It seems pretty realistic that if you bundle someone up in a winter coat and a helmet and have someone try to kill them for about 12 seconds they'd get tired pretty quick. Most people, even trained soldiers, can only go all out in hand to hand combat for a very short period of time, but even then most people who fight for a living would have at least a positive Con and Light Armor Proficiency.

People want the best gear they can handle. That makes sense. Not everything can be the best gear. That makes sense. In fact that would seem to be definitionally true. I don't see how realism equals low magic or low resource.

[Kayblis]

Once again you don't know the rules, since light armor takes a minute to put on, 30 seconds to put on quickly, and still the only thing you can argue about is the fatigue.

Ah, I see, so you take a full minute to put a helmet on. You also take a full minute to wear a greatcoat. I see you haven't touched that too, everyone's just helplessly incompetent now.

And yes, I'm only arguing about the Fatigue. You know why? Because it's the only actual change you made. Well, that and a penalty to perception. There's some window dressing, you now call blue 'cyan', but the table is effectively the same as in the PHB. I'm only addressing the changes, because that's what you asked for.



I don't know. It seems pretty realistic that if you bundle someone up in a winter coat and a helmet and have someone try to kill them for about 12 seconds they'd get tired pretty quick.


Oh yes, a guy scared me while I had my helmet on, it'll take 8 hours of rest to get over it and stop panting and maybe I can run again then.
Do you even know Fatigue rules?



Most people, even trained soldiers, can only go all out in hand to hand combat for a very short period of time, but even then most people who fight for a living would have at least a positive Con and Light Armor Proficiency.

"Most people who fight for a living" are soldiers and mercenaries with the standard array. They have one stat with a +1. That's not really relevant though, and even so this is just a straight nerf to a choice people weren't picking at all(nonprof), so it's not like 'trained soldiers' factored in the discussion before you nerfed nonprof armor anyways. I'm arguing it's a senseless addition that contributes nothing to the game other than throwing another offense at people that care about realism at all.
On the perception penalty, I really don't have much to say. Kick 'em while they're down, I suppose. That must be fun for some designers.

[PallentisLunam]

Ah, I see, so you take a full minute to put a helmet on. You also take a full minute to wear a greatcoat. I see you haven't touched that too, everyone's just helplessly incompetent now.

And yes, I'm only arguing about the Fatigue. You know why? Because it's the only actual change you made. Well, that and a penalty to perception. There's some window dressing, you now call blue 'cyan', but the table is effectively the same as in the PHB. I'm only addressing the changes, because that's what you asked for.

Oh yes, a guy scared me while I had my helmet on, it'll take 8 hours of rest to get over it and stop panting and maybe I can run again then.
Do you even know Fatigue rules?

"Most people who fight for a living" are soldiers and mercenaries with the standard array. They have one stat with a +1. That's not really relevant though, and even so this is just a straight nerf to a choice people weren't picking at all(nonprof), so it's not like 'trained soldiers' factored in the discussion before you nerfed nonprof armor anyways. I'm arguing it's a senseless addition that contributes nothing to the game other than throwing another offense at people that care about realism at all.
On the perception penalty, I really don't have much to say. Kick 'em while they're down, I suppose. That must be fun for some designers.

:smallsigh: Well if you read above, wearing a helmet is not just slapping a metal bowl on your head. There are a couple more steps to make it do its job. These generally consist of wearing some sort of padding underneath the actual helmet itself, and then both the helmet and the padding need to held on by something. Since we're talking about the days before elastic or velcro or snaps, these retaining straps would generally have to be tied or buckled on.

With reference to the greatcoat, such things were usually worn with gloves, had belt sashes and/or buttons which needed to be fastened and might even have some sort of gaitor to protect the lower leg, more from mud and snow than weapons, but such things would still often be worn in unison. Then weapons belts would often have to be added outside the coat for ease of access. It's about the time it takes to become ready for a fight, not just to throw the article of clothing on and shout done.

I don't know what you're getting at since a ctrl-f search shows you're the only one talking about either color, but yes, the table is done in the same style and with much of the same information as that from the PHB, that might have been intentional. I didn't actually ask for you to address anything. I don't see PEACH anywhere in my posts.

Fatigue is about more than just working to a point where you're out of breath. People can go on an hour long jog, be out of breath for a few minutes when they're done, drink a glass of water and go on with their day. Someone can spend ten minutes in the gym and have trouble lifting their arms for hours. Combat stress is a thing, although I believe I did mean to include something about being fatigued for an hour after they remove the offending armor. Sue me I was tired when I posted the OP.

I was more focused on a PC type character. I feel that the need for the rules to perfectly reflect all aspects of the world simultaneously is both impossible and detrimental to the effort to add realism to the game. A character gaining wisdom and knowledge as they age is fine, even if it does lead to old people having the best hearing and eyesight. The fact that a house cat has every ability to murder a villager in seconds because that's the way the stats work is fine, because it's never going to come up in one of my games. I don't care and I'm not going to spend time worrying about the fact that if I rolled every die that the game called for in every behind the scene instance of my make believe world it would strip all of its gears like a bad pocket watch.

[Blackhawk748]

Perhaps, but then again everything from a coif or a nasal to the most enclosed great helm ever made lands between -1 and -4 and I'm still getting crap over the idea that it would cause any trouble at all.

It's being pointed out continuously because it's one of the few changes you made and is pretty much pointless. The people who actually have Listen and Spot won't really notice and the people who don't just won't bother to roll.


I find it interesting that you know so much about me from me saying that I use a weighted vest...

I said people who fight in armor they aren't proficient with get fatigued. Fighting is very strenuous work, plus adrenaline, plus injury. People, even trained fighters, get gassed fighting all but naked, unarmed. Armor proficiency is basically shorthand for physical conditioning, barring outliers like Monks. And heavy clothing means things like a greatcoat not your hoodie.

Once again you don't know the rules, since light armor takes a minute to put on, 30 seconds to put on quickly, and still the only thing you can argue about is the fatigue. The idea of compelling someone to wear armor under the standard rule set carries that entire list, spell failure, ACP, loss of class features, and to hit penalties, if you could get some sort of compulsion to stick for long enough to make it happen. Even heavy armor would take a full minute with help. But, I have yet to hear of the campaign where the druid lost her magic because the DM had an NPC charm her and force her to wear a chain shirt or where the wizard got knocked out of a fight while he fiddled with his wardrobe.

I don't know. It seems pretty realistic that if you bundle someone up in a winter coat and a helmet and have someone try to kill them for about 12 seconds they'd get tired pretty quick. Most people, even trained soldiers, can only go all out in hand to hand combat for a very short period of time, but even then most people who fight for a living would have at least a positive Con and Light Armor Proficiency.

People want the best gear they can handle. That makes sense. Not everything can be the best gear. That makes sense. In fact that would seem to be definitionally true. I don't see how realism equals low magic or low resource.

I fought in leather armor (which breathes even less than a gambeson) in 70+ F for several hours and it takes quite a bit to get more tired than "gimme 10 and a drink". You seem to be really overestimating how tiring it is to be in armor.

Also, I can get my Gambeson and belt on in under 30 seconds if I'm rushing. It's literally putting on a coat and doing some fasteners. Ditto for the helmet. The padded cap is like putting on a normal hat, except it has strings

[Elkad]

You put the same thing on a few times a day, especially with an instructor yelling at you to hurry up, you get fast at it.

First time it takes forever. 50th time you have a nice routine. 500th time and you are doing it in half the time you were at 50, plus it's fitted better. Every scrap of excess motion has been eliminated, and every strap and buckle fits perfectly with a single adjustment.

And no amount of short term exertion takes more than a few dozen seconds to recover from if you are in decent shape.

[SirNibbles]

You put the same thing on a few times a day, especially with an instructor yelling at you to hurry up, you get fast at it.

First time it takes forever. 50th time you have a nice routine. 500th time and you are doing it in half the time you were at 50, plus it's fitted better. Every scrap of excess motion has been eliminated, and every strap and buckle fits perfectly with a single adjustment.

And no amount of short term exertion takes more than a few dozen seconds to recover from if you are in decent shape.

It depends on the level of exertion. Especially when you try to hit your max on legs, you'll be walking funny for the rest of the day. I agree that the changes proposed by OP are unnecessary though.