Help Needed!-Frozen Champion [Base Class]

[JNAProductions]

I want to make a class, hitting the following points:

-Should be a toughboi class. Good armor, good HP, probably good Fort and Will saves
-Should have a strong ice theme. Ideally should be able to have parts of the body be frozen
-Should be good at using two-handed weapons
-Should be able to protect others

Unfortunately, I've not any real experience in brewing for 3.5. So, anyone able to help?

[heavyfuel]

I want to make a class, hitting the following points:

-Should be a toughboi class. Good armor, good HP, probably good Fort and Will saves
-Should have a strong ice theme. Ideally should be able to have parts of the body be frozen
-Should be good at using two-handed weapons
-Should be able to protect others

Unfortunately, I've not any real experience in brewing for 3.5. So, anyone able to help?

Any reason it has to be a base class? You could just play a Frostrager (from Frostburn). 2 levels in Barbarian (take a look at some Alternative Class Features), 4 levels in Crusader (Tome of Battle). Then pick Forstrager. Maybe get some levels in Knight (Player's Handbook 2) if your DM allows you to disregard the alignment restriction.

This pretty much fits your entire bill. Will save's gonna be on the weak side, but it can be worked around. Iron Will feat, item of Protection from Evil, eventual Mind Blank.

If you're dead set on making it a base class, stretching the Frostrager into a 20 level class by borrowing from the Barbarian and the Knight isn't a terrible way to go about it.

[JNAProductions]

Because I want to play it on-theme from level 1.

[heavyfuel]

Because I want to play it on-theme from level 1.

So see my edited suggestion.

[heavyfuel]

I just noticed something. You can totally play this concept from level 1 without homebrew by simply picking Frozen Berserker feat.

At any rate, I actually gave it some thought, not in the form of a whole class, but in the form of a Variant Barbarian

A barbarian dedicated to frost raging does not gain the standard rage, greater rage, and mighty rage barbarian class features, and instead gains the following abilities.

At 1st level, a frostrager barbarian gains the supernatural ability to frostrage once per day.

While frostraging, the character grows larger and more massive, and his freezing sweat forms icicles as it streams out of his pores, coating his body in a glittering crust of ice. The frostrager's actual size category does not change (nor does his space/reach), but he does gain +2 bonus to Strength and Constitution, a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, and a +2 natural armor bonus to Armor Class from the sheets of ice that form over his body, however, his mobility is slightly hidered and he takes a -2 penalty to Reflex saves.

As long as you are under the effects of a frostrage, you gain the cold subtype. You gain immunity to cold, but have vulnerability to fire, which means you take half again as much (+50%) damage as normal from fire, regardless of whether a saving throw is allowed, or if the save is a success or failure.

The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 1 point per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the frostrage when his Constitution score drops back to normal. (These extra hit points are not lost first the way temporary hit points are.) While frostraging, a barbarian cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Balance, Escape Artist, Intimidate, and Ride), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except Combat Expertise, item creation feats, and metamagic feats.

In addition, a frostrager's considered armed when making unarmed attacks and his unarmed attacks deal 1d6 points of damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage on a successful hit. If the frostrager is Small, his unarmed attack deals 1d4 points of damage, and if the frostrager is Large, his unarmed attack deals 1d8 points of damage.

A fit of frostrage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 4 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end his frostrage. At the end of the frostrage, the barbarian loses the frostrage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).

This ability counts as the rage for the purposes of any abilities and prerequisites, including the extra uses of rage per day the barbarian gains as he increases in level.


At 11th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his frostrage each increase to +4, and his morale bonus on Will saves and Natural AC increase to +3. The penalty to Reflex remains at -2.


At 20th level, a barbarian’s bonuses to Strength and Constitution during his frostrage each increase to +6, and his morale bonus on Will saves and Natural AC increase to +4. The penalty to Reflex remains at -2.

This variant is probably slightly stronger than the traditional Rage, and it's definitely weaker than the Whirling Frenzy ACF, so it should be in a good spot.

After that, just pick your feats and multiclass accordingly. For feats, Martial Stance: Iron Guard's Glare and Power Attack work well for your concept, as does multiclassing into Crusader for better armor proficiency, maneuvers that help you tank, and Charisma to Will.

[Nifft]

I want to make a class, hitting the following points:

-Should be a toughboi class. Good armor, good HP, probably good Fort and Will saves
-Should have a strong ice theme. Ideally should be able to have parts of the body be frozen
-Should be good at using two-handed weapons
-Should be able to protect others

Unfortunately, I've not any real experience in brewing for 3.5. So, anyone able to help?

Mechanically speaking, are there any systems you want to use?

If you like Tome of Battle ("Maneuvers"), then it wouldn't be too hard to find or write an Ice-themed discipline, then put it into either Warblade or Crusader (in place of one or two of their better disciplines). Taking Desert Wind as a starting point wouldn't be too bad, though some of the non-damage maneuvers might need to be changed.

If you want to cast spells, then there might be a lot more options.

[JNAProductions]

Mechanically speaking, are there any systems you want to use?

If you like Tome of Battle ("Maneuvers"), then it wouldn't be too hard to find or write an Ice-themed discipline, then put it into either Warblade or Crusader (in place of one or two of their better disciplines). Taking Desert Wind as a starting point wouldn't be too bad, though some of the non-damage maneuvers might need to be changed.

If you want to cast spells, then there might be a lot more options.

I want little-to-no casting. Maybe a few SLAs or Su abilities, but full-casting is right out.

I wouldn't be opposed to being an initiator, though.

[JNAProductions]

Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Maneuvers Known
Maneuvers Readied
Stances Known


1st

+1


+2


+0


+2

Ice Shaping (Basic)
3
3
1


2nd

+2


+3


+0


+3

Ice Shaping (Masterwork)
4
3
1


3rd

+3


+3


+1


+3


5
3
1


4th

+4


+4


+1


+4

Ice Shaping (+1)
5
4
2


5th

+5


+4


+1


+4

Bonus Feat
6
4
2


6th

+6


+5


+2


+5


6
4
2


7th

+7


+5


+2


+5

Ice Shaping (+2)
7
4
2


8th

+8


+6


+2


+6


7
5
2


9th

+9


+6


+3


+6

Bonus Feat
8
5
2


10th

+10


+7


+3


+7

Ice Shaping (+3)
8
5
3


11th

+11


+7


+3


+7


9
5
3


12th

+12


+8


+4


+8


9
5
3


13th

+13


+8


+4


+8

Bonus Feat, Ice Shaping (+4)
10
6
3


14th

+14


+9


+4


+9


10
6
3


15th

+15


+9


+5


+9


11
6
3


16th

+16


+10


+5


+10

Ice Shaping (+5)
11
6
4


17th

+17


+10


+5


+10

Bonus Feat
12
6
4


18th

+18


+11


+6


+11


12
6
4


19th

+19


+11


+6


+11

Ice Shaping (+6)
13
7
4


20th

+20


+12


+6


+12


13
7
4



Hit Die
d12

Starting Gold
5d4X10 GP

Skill Points
4+Int Mod

Class Skills
?

Weapon And Armor Proficiencies
You are proficient in all simple and martial weapons, as well as light, medium, and heavy armor.

Maneuvers
You begin play knowing three maneuvers. Your disciplines are Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Frozen Tundra. You may switch out a single maneuver at every even level, starting at fourth level.

Maneuvers Readied
You ready the amount of maneuvers indicated on the table. Maneuvers are readied out of combat with five minutes of meditation and practice. You begin every encounter with all readied maneuvers available, and may refresh your available maneuvers with a swift action, followed by a standard action melee attack or a standard action spent focusing and performing basic flourishes.

Stances Known
You begin with one stance known, and learn more at the levels indicated on the table.

Basically, Warblade

Ice Shaping
At level one, you can create weapons and armor of ice. You may recreate any mundane weapon you have proficiency in, as well as any armor. You may have, at most, two weapons and one suit of armor created at a time. You are treated as having Weapon Focus with any weapon you create yourself.

At second level, your items may be masterwork.

At fourth level, you may apply a +1 enhancement bonus to your items created. This increases by 1 every third level after fourth (so at levels 7, 10, 13, etc.). You may apply special effects, rather than simple enhancement bonuses, following the normal rules for enchanting items.

Bonus Feats
At levels 5 and every four levels thereafter, you gain a single Fighter Bonus Feat.


I just gotta make the discipline now.

Arctic Tundra
The weapons of this discipline are two-handed weapons.

Frozen Blade
Arctic Tundra (Boost)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
Your melee attacks deal an additional 1d6+1/Initiator Level cold damage for the duration.
This is a Supernatural abilitiy.

Unyielding Glacier
Arctic Tundra (Boost)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Start of your next turn
Your movement speed is reduced to 10', but you gain +1 Natural Armor per four initiator levels (rounding up) and DR 1/- per four initiator levels (rounding down).

Frozen Spike
Arctic Tundra (Boost)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 2
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
Your weapons deal half cold damage and half regular damage for the duration. Anyone struck by your attacks while this boost is active have their movement speed halved until the end of their next turn.
This ability is Supernatural.

Zero Blade
Arctic Tundra (Boost)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 4
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
For the duration, your melee attacks deal an extra 2d6+1/Initiator level cold damage.
This ability is Supernatural.

SubZero Blade
Arctic Tundra (Boost)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 7
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: End of turn
For the duration, your melee attacks deal an extra 3d6+1/Initiator level cold damage.

Icy Riposte
Arctic Tundra (Counter)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 2
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instant
When struck by an attack, you may make a melee touch attack against them. On a hit, they take 4d6 points of cold damage.

Crashing Waves
Arctic Tundra (Counter)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 5
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instant
When struck by an attack, you may make an immediate partial-charge against them. This follows the rules for a normal charge, but you can only move up to your speed and may only ever make one attack at the end.

Frozen Barrier
Arctic Tundra (Counter)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 3
Initiation Action: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Instant
You erect a barrier of ice in an instant, granting +4 AC against a single attack. You may use this after an attack has hit, but before damage is rolled.

Icy
Arctic Tundra (Stance)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 6
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
Your melee attacks deal an extra 1d6 cold damage.
This is a supernatural ability.

Winter's Blessing
Arctic Tundra (Stance)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 1
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
You gain resistance to cold based on your ranks in Survival.
4-8: Resist 5
9-13: Resist 10
14-18: Resist 20
19+: Immune
This is a supernatural ability.

Blizzard's Blessing
Arctic Tundra (Stance)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 8
Initiation Action: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: Stance
While in this stance, creatures that fly within 30' of you are immediately pulled to the ground, taking fall damage as normal. Furthermore, any ranged attacks made from that area or passing through that area suffer a -4 hit penalty.

Blizzard Breath
Arctic Tundra (Strike)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 5
Initiation Action: 1 standard action
Range: 30'
Area: Cone
Duration: Instant
Save: Reflex Half
Everything in the cone takes 6d6 points of cold damage, Reflex save for half. DC is 15+Intelligence modifier.

Maelstrom's Pull
Arctic Tundra (Strike)[Cold]
Level: Frozen Champion 7
Initiation Action: 1 full-round action
Range: Special
Area: One 5' square per 5' of movement
Duration: Instantaneous, 5 rounds (D), see text
As part of this maneuver, select an opponent who is within range to be charged. They must make a Fortitude save against a DC of 17+Intelligence modifier, being pulled adjacent to you on a failed save. The spaces they are pulled through become frozen, counting as difficult terrain and dealing 3d6 points of cold damage to anyone who crosses them for the duration. When they are pulled adjacent, they suffer a -2 penalty to their AC until the end of their next turn, and you may make a full attack against them. If they pass their save, you may instead charge them normally, with no other effects.

[Evoker]

Let's do a Level-by-level comparison of this to the warblade, as that's what it's maneuvers and recovery are based off of:
Level 1: Frozen champion has the following advantages over warblade: Will as a good save. Training in heavy armor. Free set of plate armor (1500 gp value, or more than 10X starting wealth.) Free copy of any two martial or simple weapons. Free weapon focus. Warblade has the following advantages: Int mod to reflex saves. Swap weapon feats around. Count as fighter of level-2 for feats that require it. Two more disciplines
Level one easily goes to Frozen Champion for more than +1500 gear value over Warblade alone.
Level 2: Frozen champion gets another +750gp value by making two weapons and one armor masterwork. Warblade gets uncanny dodge, but that's really minor when you consider that the frozen champion is rocking fullplate, and the warblade has to make do with a breastplate at best, so even when Warblade gets his dex mod to ac when suprised, it still won't give him superior AC to the Frozen champion.
Level 3: The Frozen Champion gets nothing, and the Warblade gets to add his int mod to critical confirmation rolls. Nice for a crit-fisher?
Level 4: The Frozen champion gets 5000 GP this level, for 2 +1 weapons and 1 +1 armor. The Warblade gets nothing.
Level 5: The Warblade and Frozen Champion both get a bonus feat.
Level 6: The Warblade gets improved uncanny dodge, and is no longer flankable. The Frozen champion gets nothing special.
Level 7: The Warblade gets a neat and flavorful ability that's about the same as +1d6 sneak attack. The frozen champion gets 6000+6000+3000 = 15000 GP. Note that by this point they've gained 21500 GP from their class abilities, and standard wealth by level is 19000. That's right, they've more than doubled their wealth. And this isn't even suboptimal wealth, as they can pick special abilities, as well as just +X to damage and hit.

I could keep going, but I don't feel I need to. Frozen champions get another bump to the enchantment on their armor and weapons every three levels, while still having plenty of options to choose for their maneuvers and stances. In exchange, warblades pick up +int to opposed checks, and +int to attacks of opportunity damage and to-hit. At level twenty, they pick up a nice capstone.

IMHO, warblade is worse than this class at almost every level. The gap is huge at level one, and I can't tell if it shrinks or grows. The frozen champion pretty much never needs a magic weapon or armor, and can funnel all that WBL into useful utility items. The one potential saving grace of warblade is their capstone.

[JNAProductions]

To be fair, it's not so much that the Champion is BETTER than a Warblade, inasmuch as it's CHEAPER. In a low-magic game, where you're lucky to get a +2 dagger, I 100% agree.

But in a game that sticks reasonably close to WBL, I don't think the difference is that significant.

[Elves]

It being stronger than warblade is only a problem if you explicitly want this class to stand side by side with the original Tome of Battle content. The TOB classes were good for their time but aren't particularly strong. A modernized version of them would be stronger. That's certainly the direction Path of War went.


Looking at the class, it risks being bland though. If you don't want to put specific ice-themed class features I'd just play a warblade/crusader with ice maneuvers. The soulknife-plus ability doesn't have any mechanical connection to ice.

[Evoker]

To be fair, it's not so much that the Champion is BETTER than a Warblade, inasmuch as it's CHEAPER. In a low-magic game, where you're lucky to get a +2 dagger, I 100% agree.

But in a game that sticks reasonably close to WBL, I don't think the difference is that significant.

Let me do a comparison, level by level (Let's count only one weapon, even though many people do use backup weapons occasionally, and you can easily keep up two weapons each with different enchantment setups and swap between them. Oh yes, and you can give one of the weapons to a friend.):
Level One: WBL: starting wealth. Frozen champion bonus +1550 (plate armor and greatsword)
Level Two: WBL: 900. Frozen champion bonus +2000 (masterwork plate armor and masterwork greatsword)
Level Three: WBL: 2700. Frozen champion bonus +2000 (masterwork plate armor and masterwork greatsword)
Level Four: WBL: 5400. Frozen champion bonus +5000 (+1 plate armor and +1 greatsword)
Level Five: WBL: 9000. Frozen champion bonus +5000 (+1 plate armor and +1 greatsword)
Level Six: WBL: 13000. Frozen champion bonus +5000 (+1 plate armor and +1 greatsword) (First time the bonus drops below half WBL)
Level Seven: WBL: 19000. Frozen champion bonus +16000 (+2 plate armor and +2 greatsword)
Level Eight: WBL: 27000. Frozen champion bonus +16000 (+2 plate armor and +2 greatsword)
Level Nine: WBL: 36000. Frozen champion bonus +16000 (+2 plate armor and +2 greatsword)
Level Ten: WBL: 49000. Frozen champion bonus +31000 (+3 plate armor and +3 greatsword)
Level Eleven: WBL: 66000. Frozen champion bonus +31000 (+3 plate armor and +3 greatsword)
Level Twelve: WBL: 88000. Frozen champion bonus +31000 (+3 plate armor and +3 greatsword)
Level Thirteen: WBL: 110000. Frozen champion bonus +62000 (+4 plate armor and +4 greatsword)
Level Fourteen: WBL: 150000. Frozen champion bonus +62000 (+4 plate armor and +4 greatsword)
Level Fifteen: WBL: 200000. Frozen champion bonus +62000 (+4 plate armor and +4 greatsword) (Note: this is the first time the frozen champion bonus, considering only one weapon, has dropped below a third of WBL)
Level Sixteen: WBL: 260000. Frozen champion bonus +86000 (+5 plate armor and +5 greatsword)
Level Seventeen: WBL: 340000. Frozen champion bonus +86000 (+5 plate armor and +5 greatsword)
Level Eighteen: WBL: 440000. Frozen champion bonus +86000 (+5 plate armor and +5 greatsword) (First time the bonus drops below one fourth of WBL)
Level Nineteen: WBL: 580000. Frozen champion bonus +119000 (+6 plate armor and +6 greatsword)
Level Twenty: WBL: 760000. Frozen champion bonus +119000 (+6 plate armor and +6 greatsword) (The frozen champion's bonus has fallen to less than one fifth of WBL)
So depending on what you count as a significant amount of WBL, the Frozen champion might fall behind that margin at any level, if you consider only one weapon (probably a bad idea, but a second weapon also probably isn't worth the full value of the first one). But the number seems to me to remain significant at least up to level 15, when it falls below a third of standard WBL.

Sure, it's not quite as ridiculous WBL breaking as say, an artificer. But it's fairly close, and stacking that on top of a class that's only a little behind warblade (thinking of heavy armor proficiency being roughly worth shield proficency) is very strong.

[Nifft]

Yeah those numbers are meaningful, and the gear is a bit much.

Ditch the free gear.

Instead, give innate cold resistance (starting at level 1) and let the custom Stances do more interesting things.

[heavyfuel]

To be fair, it's not so much that the Champion is BETTER than a Warblade, inasmuch as it's CHEAPER. In a low-magic game, where you're lucky to get a +2 dagger, I 100% agree.

But in a game that sticks reasonably close to WBL, I don't think the difference is that significant.

Cheaper is better. Money you're not spending on weapons and armor is money you're spending on wondrous items that give you amazing abilities.

Weapons and Armor are 2 out of the "big 6" items. You're getting a massive bonus to WBL because of your class abilities. A bonus that is especially good in the early levels. Getting a full plate at level 1 is insanely good. You'll be a full 3 points of AC higher than any other Heavy Armor wearing class and an extra 200gp in your pocket, which is a lot at lv 1. Just look at the comparisson Evoker made. You're gaining a HUGE chuck of wealth for free. And Evoker also assumed a single weapon, you can have two, actually breaking the standard wealth for the level by a significant margin.

Plus Weapon Focus for free as well? On a full bab class? Really?

While this guy won't break anything the Tier 1 casters haven't already broken, I don't think "worse than Tier 1" is a good metric. It's still stronger than the 3 Initiators we have, and Initiators are already stronger than pretty much any non caster.

I say tone it way down in the wealth generating department. Set a maximum GP value akin to the Ancestral Relic feat that you can spend on your Weapons/Armor. Ancestral Relic is already considered a powerful feat, your class abilities are "Ancestral Relic on Steroids" times 3.

The class' chasis is also way too strong. d12, full bab, 2 most important saves as good saves, 4+int skills. A d10, and poor Will save (with a class ability to boost it similar to the Crusader's) would make it more in line.


Level 1:

The class is also proficient in Martial Ranged Weapons, which the Warblade isn't.

[Elves]

My suggestions:

- Get rid of the bonus feats, no thematic contribution. Instead, grant a series of bonuses for using maneuvers with [cold] descriptor, eg, automatic slow on hit.

- Possible refresh mechanic: turn to ice for 1 round, meaning you can't do anything but gain immunities and DR/crushing. More simply, maybe you can still do things but you freeze in place.

Actually, this could be an interesting place to try a progressive process where staying in place and gradually freezing makes you regain maneuvers each round. It could be fun to have a dynamic where not moving makes you start to freeze in place, slowing your speed but granting defensive bonuses and recovering a maneuver each round, but if your speed drops to 0 you freeze fully and someone has to spend a standard action to wake you up.

- replace the gear ability with automatically making weapons you wield frost weapons (& at a certain level either upscale the cold damage or make them frost burst)

- either give inherent cold resist or make that be a stance analogous to the Desert Wind fire resist stance (maybe this class gets the stance automatically)

- possibly some frost themed SLAs

- capstone that turns you into an elemental being of ice.

[smasher0404]

Some small things:

Ice Shaping doesn't have an ability type: is it Extraordinary, Supernatural, Spell-like? Also, how long does it take to make a weapon with Ice Shaping? Standard Action? 1 minute? Normal crafting time? Can a Champion unmake an item later?
There are a lot of dead levels (6,14,18, and 20). They don't grant you new manuevers, or class features. That tends to feel a bit disappointing. Especially at level 20 where the PC is better suited to taking a level in pretty much any other martial class. Swapping out a manuevers is nice, but doesn't provide any benefits to someone happy with their current selection.
Arctic Tundra doesn't have a discipline skill marked (presumably it's survival?). Also, higher level manuevers tend to require several manuevers of the same school (presumably to prevent cherry picking with Martial Study). I think Stone Dragon is the only one that doesn't follow that trend. It's a valid design choice, but is also something to consider


I would point out to the posters saying that this is flat out stronger than Warblade that this class loses access to Diamond Mind and White Raven which does provide a good bit of power to the Warblade.