Is The Star Wars Force Powers Equivalent To Psionic Powers?

[Bartmanhomer]

I just thought of something is Star Wars Force Powers equivalent to psionic powers? Think about it for a moment Force Power has the same similarity as psionic powers. You can use telekinesis with your mind by lifting a vehicle. And you can Force Choke an enemy that you hate. Force powers and Psionic Powers are exactly the same things.

[Gnoman]

"The Force" and "Psionics" are primarily just a way to sneak magic into on ostensibly science fiction setting, because people have decided that the setting doesn't work with magic for some reason. This means that they're going to have similarities in gross effect.


In fluff, however, there's not much similarity. The Force is an external energy field with a certain amount of independent will. All Force Powers involve connecting to that energy field and using it for a desired effect. Light Side powers seek harmony with the Force to achieve the desired result - you give yourself over to it for guidance, or you work with it to manipulate the world around you. Dark Side powers dominate the Force to comply with your will, usually for destructive ends.

Psionics are generally entirely internal. You use the Power of Your Mind to create wondrous effects.

[Knaight]

"The Force" and "Psionics" are primarily just a way to sneak magic into on ostensibly science fiction setting, because people have decided that the setting doesn't work with magic for some reason. This means that they're going to have similarities in gross effect.

They also sneak in a lot of the same magic powers. Lifting things at a distance? Check. Nonverbal remote communication? Check. Visions of the future? Check.

[Kitten Champion]

Ah, but they don't use psycho-frames to manipulate fin-funnels or bits.

They're completely different then.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

They also sneak in a lot of the same magic powers. Lifting things at a distance? Check. Nonverbal remote communication? Check. Visions of the future? Check.

Also oracular visions(Luke's Dagobah vision is not reality-based, it's the Force warning him that he is on the wrong path), speaking with/seeing the dead, blaster casting, energy absorbsion, and even refusing to die despite massive physical trauma. The Force does whatever the users need it to.

[LibraryOgre]

Generally, yes, Force Powers are Psychic Powers... though, if you consider the force to be an entity that has a life and a will, they are also clerical in nature... a Jedi gets power from the Force, who chooses individuals to use it.

[Bartmanhomer]

"The Force" and "Psionics" are primarily just a way to sneak magic into on ostensibly science fiction setting, because people have decided that the setting doesn't work with magic for some reason. This means that they're going to have similarities in gross effect.


In fluff, however, there's not much similarity. The Force is an external energy field with a certain amount of independent will. All Force Powers involve connecting to that energy field and using it for the desired effect. Light Side powers seek harmony with the Force to achieve the desired result - you give yourself over to it for guidance, or you work with it to manipulate the world around you. Dark Side powers dominate the Force to comply with your will, usually for destructive ends.

Psionics is generally entirely internal. You use the Power of Your Mind to create wondrous effects.
Yes but I feel like that the Force Powers is just Psionics Powers even to include the alignment description of Good and Evil Force Powers.

[Peelee]

Yes but I feel like that the Force Powers is just Psionics Powers even to include the alignment description of Good and Evil Force Powers.

There are no Good or Evil force powers outside of games like KOTOR.

[Bartmanhomer]

There are no Good or Evil force powers outside of games like KOTOR.

Ok, so the Force Powers is just plain neutral just like animals and Pokemon. But at the end of the day is still psionic powers. Maybe there might some divine magic to be involved to add the mix but it's still psionic powers.

[Peelee]

Ok, so the Force Powers is just plain neutral just like animals and Pokemon. But at the end of the day is still psionic powers. Maybe there might some divine magic to be involved to add the mix but it's still psionic powers.

It''s just as Gnoman said - it's magic. A rose by any other name. The fluff is the biggest difference.

[Knaight]

Also oracular visions(Luke's Dagobah vision is not reality-based, it's the Force warning him that he is on the wrong path), speaking with/seeing the dead, blaster casting, energy absorbsion, and even refusing to die despite massive physical trauma. The Force does whatever the users need it to.
It's broad for sure, but the classic PSI powers make up the vast majority of what we see. Psi in very soft sci-fi was clearly a heavy inspiration for the Force, if not necessarily the only one.

[Bartmanhomer]

It''s just as Gnoman said - it's magic. A rose by any other name. The fluff is the biggest difference.

Ok. :smile:

[KillianHawkeye]

Ok, so the Force Powers is just plain neutral just like animals and Pokemon. But at the end of the day is still psionic powers. Maybe there might some divine magic to be involved to add the mix but it's still psionic powers.

It's just not that easy.

The Force, psionic, arcane, divine, these are just words. They don't mean much without context, and even in hard systems like D&D they really don't mean all that much. In a film like Star Wars, it really just means "all the magic." That's what the Force is. How it works, where it comes from, these factors are unique to the Star Wars setting. But what it actually does is simply whatever magical thing it needs to do for the story.

Some of the classic Force powers are something other settings might consider psionic, while others are more magical, some even divine. Many fall into multiple categories. Shall we make a list?


Telekinesis (including Force Choke) - Basically the most common Force power, this falls equally under magic as it does psionics. A common pyschic power in comic books, but also a very common magical ability.
Telepathy, mind reading, and suggestion/mind control - Again, these are very commonly given as abilities to both psychics as well as magicians (i.e. enchanters).
Precognition (seeing the future) - This one works for pretty much anyone. Commonly considered a psychic ability in sci-fi or low magic genres, but I believe Merlin had this power as well. See also: various other oracles, fortune tellers and sooth sayers from real world mythologies.
Shooting Goddamn Lightning - Honestly, this one is more magical than psionic, although electrokinesis is a thing sometimes. It's basically lightning bolt in Star Wars, though.
Being super lucky, manipulating chance, and defying fate - That's just being the main character in any fantasy story.
Moving Fast - More limited to the Star Wars games because they forget to ever do it again after The Phantom Menace. This one is often unrelated to psychic powers in super hero comics, and has a good history with traditional magic (i.e. haste or time stop).
Healing - Heavily associated with divine magic in D&D, but is pretty much a neutral entity in fiction as a whole. How it works in a given setting or genre just depends on how magic in general works.
Astral Projection - Here's another power that is possessed by many psionic monsters in D&D, but is also just a spell any wizard can learn. You're as likely to see Professor X doing this as you are Doctor Strange.
Passing physical objects to another person through some kind of metaphysical link - I don't even think J.J. Abrams understands how that's supposed to work.


That covers most of the big Force powers seen in the movies (and ignoring a couple I don't really want to get into, like creating a baby inside a human woman from nothing). There are certainly some that I've missed, especially if they're from more obscure games or books or comics, but the trend probably holds pretty well.

The Force does a lot of stuff that is pretty basic to any well developed system of magical or supernatural powers. To say that it is all one thing or another is just too limiting. It started out as a way for people to magically affect the world around them and to advance the plot, and it grew to contain any number of strange and ridiculous abilities until it encompassed pretty much any power a writer could think of.

[EggKookoo]

The Force is an external energy field with a certain amount of independent will. All Force Powers involve connecting to that energy field and using it for a desired effect. Light Side powers seek harmony with the Force to achieve the desired result - you give yourself over to it for guidance, or you work with it to manipulate the world around you. Dark Side powers dominate the Force to comply with your will, usually for destructive ends.

I agree with this. What's interesting is in most of the main films, when two Force-wielders fight, most often it seems like only one of them can really "use" it at a given time. As if it's a single entity or source of power that can be only used for a particular thing at any given time, at least in the local area. The combatants often wrestle over control of it, with the winner using it for the moment while the loser retreats or at least goes on the defensive. It's rare to see two opposing wills use the Force for two contrary purposes simultaneously in the same place. At least in terms of direct action -- there doesn't seem to be a limit for multiple minds using the Force for awareness and perception at the same time.

Even something like this...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EducatedBigheartedHusky-size_restricted.gif

...can be seen as them both trying to get the Force to do something and essentially blocking each other from accessing it. Essentially, they both exerted the same "force" (so to speak) and the Force itself didn't budge.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The force also grants better reflexes and negates critical fumbles, allowing the use of a lightsaber.

Not the most typical power for other types of magic, but I guess in d&d terms the hexblade gets the closest/least far away?

[Psyren]

The most well-defined psionics I can think of is the D&D 3.5/PF1 version, so I'm going to use that one unless the OP had something different in mind.

That system of psionics contains the following schools:

- Clairsentience
- Psychokinesis
- Psychometabolism
- Psychoportation
- Telepathy
- Metacreativity

Of those, I can think of Force examples for all of these except perhaps Metacreativity. I'm not as familiar with the EU material, but in the movies at least, I haven't seen the Force do anything like an Astral Construct, Quintessence or creating ectoplasmic or solid objects out of thin air. Again though, that's with my limited knowledge of anything Star Wars outside of the movies.

[Bartmanhomer]

The most well-defined psionics I can think of is the D&D 3.5/PF1 version, so I'm going to use that one unless the OP had something different in mind.

That system of psionics contains the following schools:

- Clairsentience
- Psychokinesis
- Psychometabolism
- Psychoportation
- Telepathy
- Metacreativity

Of those, I can think of Force examples for all of these except perhaps Metacreativity. I'm not as familiar with the EU material, but in the movies at least, I haven't seen the Force do anything like an Astral Construct, Quintessence or creating ectoplasmic or solid objects out of thin air. Again though, that's with my limited knowledge of anything Star Wars outside of the movies.

That's exactly what I was thinking. :smile:

[NotASpiderSwarm]

The most well-defined psionics I can think of is the D&D 3.5/PF1 version, so I'm going to use that one unless the OP had something different in mind.

That system of psionics contains the following schools:

- Clairsentience
- Psychokinesis
- Psychometabolism
- Psychoportation
- Telepathy
- Metacreativity

Of those, I can think of Force examples for all of these except perhaps Metacreativity. I'm not as familiar with the EU material, but in the movies at least, I haven't seen the Force do anything like an Astral Construct, Quintessence or creating ectoplasmic or solid objects out of thin air. Again though, that's with my limited knowledge of anything Star Wars outside of the movies.
There's a couple books where a force user(generally a Sith) forms their lightsaber crystal by meditating in front of a space!blowtorch and using the force to add layers of material to the crystal forming inside it. That's still not very Creation-based, but it's the closest I can recall.

[KillianHawkeye]

The most well-defined psionics I can think of is the D&D 3.5/PF1 version, so I'm going to use that one unless the OP had something different in mind.

That system of psionics contains the following schools:

- Clairsentience
- Psychokinesis
- Psychometabolism
- Psychoportation
- Telepathy
- Metacreativity

Of those, I can think of Force examples for all of these except perhaps Metacreativity. I'm not as familiar with the EU material, but in the movies at least, I haven't seen the Force do anything like an Astral Construct, Quintessence or creating ectoplasmic or solid objects out of thin air. Again though, that's with my limited knowledge of anything Star Wars outside of the movies.

Sure, but even in D&D there's a pretty large overlap between these psionic disciplines and the schools of arcane and divine magic.

Clairsentience is basically Divination. Psychokinesis is pretty much Evocation with a bit of Transmutation. Psychoportation is the teleportation side of Conjuration with a bit of speed or movement-related Transmutation. Psychometabolism is healing and the rest of Transmutation. Telepathy is the more mind-reading sorts of Divinations plus all the mind-affecting Enchantments. Metacreativity is the rest of Conjuration (summoning/calling and creation subschools).

A fair number of psionic powers are just the psionic version of arcane spells. The main thing that psionics doesn't much cover is Necromancy, but otherwise you could totally play a psion and call him a sorcerer and the difference would mostly go unnoticed.

[Bartmanhomer]

Sure, but even in D&D there's a pretty large overlap between these psionic disciplines and the schools of arcane and divine magic.

Clairsentience is basically Divination. Psychokinesis is pretty much Evocation with a bit of Transmutation. Psychoportation is the teleportation side of Conjuration with a bit of speed or movement-related Transmutation. Psychometabolism is healing and the rest of Transmutation. Telepathy is the more mind-reading sorts of Divinations plus all the mind-affecting Enchantments. Metacreativity is the rest of Conjuration (summoning/calling and creation subschools).

A fair number of psionic powers are just the psionic version of arcane spells. The main thing that psionics doesn't much cover is Necromancy, but otherwise you could totally play a psion and call him a sorcerer and the difference would mostly go unnoticed.
Unless it's homebrew for Necrokinesis. :tongue:

[Psyren]

Sure, but even in D&D there's a pretty large overlap between these psionic disciplines and the schools of arcane and divine magic.

Clairsentience is basically Divination. Psychokinesis is pretty much Evocation with a bit of Transmutation. Psychoportation is the teleportation side of Conjuration with a bit of speed or movement-related Transmutation. Psychometabolism is healing and the rest of Transmutation. Telepathy is the more mind-reading sorts of Divinations plus all the mind-affecting Enchantments. Metacreativity is the rest of Conjuration (summoning/calling and creation subschools).

A fair number of psionic powers are just the psionic version of arcane spells. The main thing that psionics doesn't much cover is Necromancy, but otherwise you could totally play a psion and call him a sorcerer and the difference would mostly go unnoticed.

Uh... I know all that, how is any of that relevant to a thread about the Force?

[Brother Oni]

The force also grants better reflexes and negates critical fumbles, allowing the use of a lightsaber.

That's a different power - Jedi have a constant but limited precognition, which allows them to use a lightsaber so spectacularly like blocking blaster shots. It's why when the Stormtroopers enacted Order 66, they surrounded each Jedi and shot them from all angles so they wouldn't have a chance to 'see' a way out.

Unless they've retconned it, the crystal that focuses a lightsaber requires a Force sensitive person to align and attune during construction and perform other basic maintenance tasks.




Telekinesis (including Force Choke)
Telepathy, mind reading, and suggestion/mind control
Precognition (seeing the future)
Shooting Goddamn Lightning
Being super lucky, manipulating chance, and defying fate
Moving Fast
Healing
Astral Projection
Passing physical objects to another person through some kind of metaphysical link - I don't even think J.J. Abrams understands how that's supposed to work.


That covers most of the big Force powers seen in the movies (and ignoring a couple I don't really want to get into, like creating a baby inside a human woman from nothing). There are certainly some that I've missed, especially if they're from more obscure games or books or comics, but the trend probably holds pretty well.

I think most people wouldn't count a limited ability to see the future so that it's combat effective, ala Spiderman's 'Spidey-sense'-esque, as proper precognition.

Battle Meditation could be described as a form of mass mind control, but the scale and scope is ridiculous, on the order of hundreds of thousands of both hostile and allied individuals over millions of miles.

Speaking of which, the range of Force Choke is best described as 'if I can see you, I can choke you', which makes it particularly effective in a universe with intergalactic telecommunications - the longest range use I can find is in the Clone Wars series (S06E10), when Palpatine on Coruscant, used his power on Count Dooku who was on Raxus, a distance of ~ 31,000 light years.

In my opinion, Force Powers have more in common with magic spells rather than psionics, as there's fixed manifestations of the powers - there's no use of telekinesis to make someone's head explode ala Scanners for example or why Force Choke is limited to the throat when applying it to a major artery in the brain would be more efficient and effective; both are uses I'm sure an angry/vicious enough Dark Side user would have come up with in the thousands of years of the SW universe.

[Caledonian]

You can see someone's throat, or at least the material covering it. You can't (normally) see an artery in the brain, or simply the brain itself. If perception is required for Force force projection, that explains the throat thing.

Also, squeezing a blood vessel in the brain, or even simply the brain, will kill or permanently damage someone very quickly. The Dark Side is about fear and suffering - that's its theme - and the throat thing is nice and slow.

So there're both Watsonian and Doylesian reasons.

[Peelee]

Uh... I know all that, how is any of that relevant to a thread about the Force?

The Force maps to standard magic as well as psionic magic, is my understanding of that. Which I agree with.

[Psyren]

The Force maps to standard magic as well as psionic magic, is my understanding of that. Which I agree with.

Sure, but I never said it didn't, so I was confused why I was being replied to there.



In my opinion, Force Powers have more in common with magic spells rather than psionics, as there's fixed manifestations of the powers - there's no use of telekinesis to make someone's head explode ala Scanners for example

Cranial Deluge, CPsi pg. 81

[tomandtish]

I think most people wouldn't count a limited ability to see the future so that it's combat effective, ala Spiderman's 'Spidey-sense'-esque, as proper precognition.



I don't know... To me, if you can see/predict the future at all, it's precognition. Admittedly, in Spidey's case it's extremely limited, but still extremely useful.

Dresden Files had a precog who could only see a few seconds into the future. She would often answer questions before asked, but not really strong enough to save her in a combat situation (she actually had a medical dog to help her with "epilepsy").

Whether the power is at a level to be useful is different from not having the power. Case in point: In Babylon 5 Ivanova is basically a P0 (by her own admission she's not as powerful as a P1). But she is still technically a telepath.

[Peelee]

Sure, but I never said it didn't, so I was confused why I was being replied to there.

I see it as a logical continuation of the answer to the threads question. You could say, "yes, the Force can be roughly equivalent to psionic powers." You can also add "just like non-psionic magic", is all.

[Brother Oni]

You can see someone's throat, or at least the material covering it. You can't (normally) see an artery in the brain, or simply the brain itself. If perception is required for Force force projection, that explains the throat thing.

Also, squeezing a blood vessel in the brain, or even simply the brain, will kill or permanently damage someone very quickly. The Dark Side is about fear and suffering - that's its theme - and the throat thing is nice and slow.


True. Force powers often doesn't seem to have the precision of control required to Force Pull/Push individual body parts, so you can pull/push the whole person, but you can't focus that pull/push onto their eyeball.


Cranial Deluge, CPsi pg. 81

I meant the presentation of Force Powers, rather than the presentation of psionic powers.

I don't think there's a Force version of Cranial Deluge.

[Psyren]

I think most people wouldn't count a limited ability to see the future so that it's combat effective, ala Spiderman's 'Spidey-sense'-esque, as proper precognition.



I don't know... To me, if you can see/predict the future at all, it's precognition. Admittedly, in Spidey's case it's extremely limited, but still extremely useful.

Worth pointing out that one X-Men story where Shadow King managed to take over the astral plane, and every telepath, precog and other psionicist on the planet was impacted by it; Spiderman was explicitly included in that because of his spider sense, so Marvel at least considers his power to be psionic.

[Bohandas]

They're definitely not 3.5 psionics as limitations for use seem to be more per encounter than per day and a lot of it seems to be at will

[tomandtish]

They're definitely not 3.5 psionics as limitations for use seem to be more per encounter than per day and a lot of it seems to be at will

I know we've seen characters who COULDN'T do something (Luke lifting the X-Wing in Empire for example). But (in the movies at least) have we ever seen an example of someone unable to do something because they were tapped out?

[KillianHawkeye]

The Force maps to standard magic as well as psionic magic, is my understanding of that. Which I agree with.


Sure, but I never said it didn't, so I was confused why I was being replied to there.

It was only because you had the Psionic disciplines listed in your post. And Bartmanhomer confirmed that it was that Psionics system he was thinking of when he made this thread.

And yes, it was to further illustrate my point that arcane magic and psionics in D&D are very similar and both cover usages of The Force pretty well.



I think most people wouldn't count a limited ability to see the future so that it's combat effective, ala Spiderman's 'Spidey-sense'-esque, as proper precognition.

Well, it IS limited precognition. But Jedi can also legit see into the future, like when Luke sees Han and Leia getting captured by the Empire in Cloud City, or when Anakin sees visions of Padme and his mother dying.

[EggKookoo]

I know we've seen characters who COULDN'T do something (Luke lifting the X-Wing in Empire for example). But (in the movies at least) have we ever seen an example of someone unable to do something because they were tapped out?

Depending on how you view it, there could be plenty of cases where characters in the movies "run out of resources." Examples abound.

During the Vader/Luke fight in ESB, imagine each of them has some resource or equivalent of maneuvers or "force spell slots" they use. Maybe, like a paladin in 5e, they can burn force slots to get special lightsaber maneuvers. At the start of the fight in the carbonite chamber, they both probably make use of some resources, but I imagine Luke burns through his more quickly. He aggressively attacks Vader and does a Force jumpy thing to get up out of the pit. Sure, Vader flips the switch with the Force but that's probably a cantrip-level "mage hand" kind of thing.

Later, when they meet back up, Vader (who surely has more resources to begin with) starts using the Force to batter Luke with crates and stuff. Luke, running low on his own "force points" or whatever, conserves them and is unable to protect himself from the assault. He likely burns something when the window is broken and he's pulled out, in order to make some kind of leap to the catwalk and avoid being pulled to his death.

When they come together on the catwalk, Luke is pretty clearly out of fuel, while Vader still has quite a bit left. Vader dominates the fight now, knowing Luke is not only out of whatever Force-based resources he might have, but is also pretty low on hit points. In fact, taking Luke's hand off probably reduced Luke to 0 HP, and it's possible he burned whatever remaining Force resource he had to prevent himself from dying or going unconscious or whatever the mechanic would be. He's basically dead man walking when he crawls out onto the antenna/probe thing, and only survives being ejected from the underside of the city by some crazy lucky rolls. His Force-based communication with Leia had as much to do with her Force resources (few as she would have at that point) as anything he would still have.

In the end it depends on the viewer to interpret it. The movies aren't written with game mechanics in mind. There's nothing like that underpinning what the characters do in the script. You have to invent it yourself on the viewer side.

[Fyraltari]

The Force maps to standard magic as well as psionic magic, is my understanding of that. Which I agree with.

Well, it's not like there is any functionnal difference between "magic" and "psychic powers" anyway.