1E] Half Giants and Weapon Size

[Allistar]

So, I've seen a lot of conflicting points on the paizo forums about what does and does not stack with powerful build. So what's the verdict on what the largest weapon a half giant can wield is? The things that I'm curious about are how the main components actually work together (IE do they actually stack). The ones I've seen cited most are titan fighter/titan mauler, lighten weapon, monstrous physique, and enlarge person.

The common thoughts are that titan mauler/fighter wouldn't work because they "let you use a two handed weapon a size category larger than you at an added penalty". Since you're only medium it only applies to large weapons, which you can already use penalty free. I agree with that one, but they also double back and say that a lighten weapon "allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger as if it were your own size, use a two-handed weapon in one hand, or a one-handed as a light weapon". Am I missing something or does that work in a different way than titan fighter?

Monstrous and enlarged are also just straight up size increases, but I thought you could only be under the effects of one size altering effect (IE the largest size category change).

I dunno, maybe I'm misreading a lot of these but I want to get another opinion

[Doctor Despair]

First of all, arguably, a 12th-level character with a Titan bloodline gains the wield oversized weapon Oversized Weapon (Ex)
A titan wields a great, two-handed warhammer (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) without penalty. so you could technically set the bar at gargantuan weapons. :p

Cheese aside, normally, a character can wield a one-handed weapon from one size category larger than them as a two-handed weapon, so a medium creature could two-hand a large weapon. You can use melee weapons one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, but the amount of effort it takes you to use the weapon does not change. For instance, a Large longsword (a one-handed weapon for a Large creature) is considered a two-handed weapon for a Medium creature that does not have this feat. For a Medium creature that has this feat, it is still considered a one-handed weapon. You can wield a larger light weapon as a light weapon, or a larger two-handed weapon in two hands. You cannot wield a larger weapon in your off hand, and you cannot use this feat with a double weapon. A half-giant can use weapons designed for a creature one size larger without penalty. It's unclear if these abilities would stack, as they both key to the base creature's size, but it wouldn't be unreasonable to say that they do stack, or unfounded to say that they don't. She can use two-handed weapons meant for creatures one size category larger, but the penalty for doing so is increased by 4. Special: The effect of this feat does not stack with other feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size. You may take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different type of weapon. Enlarge person/Monstrous physique would almost certainly stack with any one of those abilities, however, as they alter your size, and each one of them keys into the size of the base character. Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack,.


With all of that said, allowing that there's ambiguity in whether powerful build, monkey grip, and/or titan mauler would stack... what does the PC ultimately gain? The ability to play a medium race, become large, and wield a colossal+ one-handed weapon in two hands (huge with a two-handed colossal+, if you use Monstrous Physique III). This gives them a lot of reach and a lot of damage dice, but for that investment, is it the most broken thing? Choosing a race, three class levels, a feat, and somehow getting consistent access to a fifth level spell? For what will presumably be a mundane character? There are a lot more broken things that a magic-user can do in 3.5 and 3.5-based systems than hit things with exceedingly large sticks, especially considering some battlefields will be too confined to become that large or wield weapons that large. I'd say let them have it, personally, with the exception that lighten weapon and enlarge person explicitly don't stack, as they have very little grey area.

Edit: I guess technically the Titan bloodline explicitly WOULD stack, so you could use that with powerful build and Monstrous Physique to be a huge creature that can wield a one-handed colossal weapon in one hand, or dual wield them. That would be simplest, taking access to a 5th level spell, their race, and a bloodline, peaking at level 12 at the earliest.

[Ramza00]

Gamla (Camelfolk) / Alqarn (Rhinofolk) / Feelkha (Elephantfolk) are large size races but must wield medium size weapons. New DSP Akasha race that has no LA and since is large has better reach.

Mighty Frame feat from DSP bloodforge gives you powerful build. I think this means those 3 above races weird large weapons but are sometimes treated as huge.

https://aonprd.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Greater%20Hat% 20of%20Disguise

The Greater Hat of Disguise allows your large race to alter self as small or large races indefinitely thus allowing you to look like a human, halfling, or other race inside the town and be large in dungeons or out in battle outdoors.

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Expansion and Metamorphosis (3rd Egoist) can give you two size increases via using those Psionic Powers.

The 3rd level stance of Primal Fury called Primal Warrior Stance gives your weapon two size increases that stacks with size changing magic. Also a single size increase for cmb, cmd, and special abilities like grab.

Lastly Armory Of The Conqueror veil from Akasha. Grab it with a feat. Use Radiant Dawn Maneuvers and Stances to grab some essence. 1 essence is 1 size increase, 3 essence is 2 size increases, 5 essence is 3 size increases. Note armory of the conqueror does not mention stacking either for or against.

The short of this is it is quite easy to be Large Size and with Psionics be Gargantuan roughly around ECL 6 or 7 depending on the build, while simultaneously having 2 more size increases due to Primal Warrior Stance. Thus we are talking like a butchering axe is 3d6 for medium, 4d6 for large (Powerful Build.) 2 size magic and primal warrior stance means 4 more size increases for a total of 16d6. This is not counting Armory of the Conqueror which I am not sure if it officially stacks but even if it does I do not think a DM would allow it without some limit.

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Technically an Aasimar or Tiefling can have one of those 3 races be the humanoid ancestry instead of the human and then the good or evil outsider as the other half. It would be large size but it is not clear if they would get the undersized weapons aka medium or weapons for their size aka large. Technically by RAW the answer looks like yes for large weapons and you lose the undersized weapons racial trait but that was not the intent with Pathfinders racial point system (which dreamscarred does not use.) Thus I do not think most dms would allow it.

Remember just because we are talking dreamscarred here, that the psionic, path of war, and Akasha books all used different authors and thus it is not likely the authors intended such blending and thus it is okay in my opinion for the DM to say no.

[Allistar]

Powerful Build has some pretty similar text, but again, ultimately doesn't specify that you can two-hand up the chain any further.

Not sure if this has any relevance, but the Redcap has the heavy weapons ability which reads "A redcap can wield weapons sized for Medium creatures without penalty." and they are able to wield medium scythes no problem.

As for what I'm trying to get out of this... fun. I know it's not optimized or the most gamebreaking build in existence, but it's fun to have a massive weapon. Mechanics wise I was thinking vital strike is a really good way to use the massive damage dice. Was either that or cleave and slicing through a crowd with a weapon that's twice the size of himself. Also butchering axe seems really strong when you start out wielding a large axe that does 4d6 (potentially 8d6 a swing with an impact and enlarge)

I've already run this by the DM and he's fine with it, but we just want to know how all of these weird things work together. He doesn't really want to do a whole lot of rule system swapping, but he's fine with the race at least.

[Doctor Despair]

As for what I'm trying to get out of this... fun. I know it's not optimized or the most gamebreaking build in existence, but it's fun to have a massive weapon.

It absolutely is; I didn't mean to come across as disparaging. I love the concept; I helped a friend of mine do something similar in our 3.5 campaign half a decade ago (although it doesn't seem so long ago unless I phrase it that way...).

One of the benefits of being large is having additional reach, so you could go into a tripping build, too! :)

[Allistar]

It absolutely is; I didn't mean to come across as disparaging. I love the concept; I helped a friend of mine do something similar in our 3.5 campaign half a decade ago (although it doesn't seem so long ago unless I phrase it that way...).

One of the benefits of being large is having additional reach, so you could go into a tripping build, too! :)

Sorry, I probably read into it a bit too much. I've tried posting here before and got a lot of people who pushed my ideas down because they weren't “optimized”. Maybe that’s an outlier, but I’m just hesitant around the pathfinder crowd.

Also I didn't really think about the tripping and reaching potential. Seems cool and it gives me something to do if the opponent has super high AC/ a way to help my party if I don't have any other good moves. If I go the fighter route there's definitely enough feats to make a polearm area denial sub-theme. Maybe instead of the dice of butchering axe I go for potential of the longhammer.

[Ramza00]

Also I didn't really think about the tripping and reaching potential. Seems cool and it gives me something to do if the opponent has super high AC/ a way to help my party if I don't have any other good moves. If I go the fighter route there's definitely enough feats to make a polearm area denial sub-theme. Maybe instead of the dice of butchering axe I go for potential of the longhammer.
Your idea of a longhammer is great, and feel free to disregard the rest of this post.

I mention the 3 large races earlier from DSP [Gamla (Camelfolk) / Alqarn (Rhinofolk) / Feelkha (Elephantfolk) ] the ones that wield medium weapons but are large for things like reach, CMB, CMD, etc. I also mentioned taking the Mighty Frame feat (grants Powerful Build) so said races can wield large weapons and on some things they are treated as Huge. This is prior to shape changing magic like Enlarge Persion, Expansion, Metamorphosis Lesser, Metamorphosis Greater.

Well a nice thing about the Elephantfolk (the Feelkha) is they are an akasha race that gets 1 free essence point. Furthermore they have a trunk that is a weapon if you invest that 1 free essence point into the Trunk making it a 1d6 slam attack. (Which should be increased by Powerful Build.) Swap one of your martial traditions for Radiant Dawn and you can have extra essence provided by Radiant Dawn equal to the highest level of maneuver you have (so 4 extra essence at HD 7 if you have 4th level maneuvers. Use 2 of the essence for the trunk, the rest for radiant dawn stuff.)

Well 2 essence gives that natural weapon slam attack the reach property, 3 essence disarm, 4 essence grab, 5 essence constrict, every essence above 5 gives it a weapon dice increase.

Well 2 essence means you can wield a butchering axe for close range and can use your trunk for the reach weapon additional range. Now combine with the Warder's defensive focus and you can threaten that greater range but defensive focus allows you to move while doing these attack of opportunities and thus you can move until you are close enough to smack them with the butchering axe.

Elephantfolk also has +2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex which is like the ideal stats for a Warder / Egoist / Awakened Blade.

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The one downside is the Elephantfolk has 20 feet movement, but that is base movement prior to fly, haste, egoist 1 psionic power Elongate Extremities (which can give you both a untyped speed boost, reach increases, and can last up to 10 min per level depending on which augment choices you do), etc.

Dwarven Longhammer is good as is Giant-Sticker, Dwarven which is a 2d6 two handed exotic spear with piercing + slashing and brace instead of bludgeoning of the Longhammer (both have reach.)

Or go the butchering axe route for an extra die size and use your essence for the reach property on your trunk.