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malloc
2020-05-21, 04:27 PM
I'm writing a campaign based loosely off the "Crimson Skies" universe. For those not familiar, basically the players are a mixture of pop icons and fighter pilots, set in the 1930s with some alternate history, most notably the fragmentation of the United States over prohibition. The setting is pulpy and diesel-punk.

My question to you all is this: what types of encounters would you, as a player, expect to have in this type of game? I'm trying to come up with as many ideas as possible for where--and what--the players might fight, but also interesting ideas for how they manage their fame outside the aircraft.

I will post some of my thoughts as well, but do not want to influence your ideas with the first post.

Lord Torath
2020-05-21, 04:55 PM
Top-Gun: encounters with enemy aircraft, and rivals and trainers in and out of the cockpit. Plus possible love interests.

Also: "high-speed passes over four air-control towers and one admiral's daughter."
Superior Officers, underlings, and the ever-dreaded-and-ubiquitous Military police.

el minster
2020-05-21, 06:00 PM
Bombing raids, infiltrations, hired as security, sabotage, police work

Berenger
2020-05-21, 07:27 PM
Zeppelins, gangsters with tommy guns and sultry nightclub singers.

Democratus
2020-05-22, 08:47 AM
A "great race" where rival fliers from all over compete for a fabulous prize.

Aside from being a "get to the finish line first" kind of race - there are minimum requirements to remain qualified:

You must fly the entire length of 'Dead Man Canyon'. One opponent will be dropping off "balloon mines" in his wake during this leg of the race.
While crossing the great desert, you must stop at the Jade Oasis where officials will inspect your vehicle for illegal modifications. Intrigue abounds!
Part of the race crosses over Sky Raider territory. Be prepared to defend yourself from swarms of attackers!




Grand prize is an experimental engine built by Professor Diesel himself that would make your aircraft the fastest in the sky!

Aotrs Commander
2020-05-22, 09:01 AM
I just wanted to tell you both: Good luck. We're all counting on you.

SquidFighter
2020-05-22, 12:01 PM
Consider re-theming pirate-type encounters (but with airships instead of water ships). Rogue generals, hired corsairs, boarding actions and the like.

You could also go all-in with the Weird Science. Take a look at Red Alert 2 for thematic inspiration (I'm thinking of the whole Tesla energy on the Soviet side, but you get the idea).

Adventures about being stranded after a crash could be an interesting idea.

kyoryu
2020-05-22, 12:03 PM
Crew rivalries, tensions with the other people on the "base".

Berenger
2020-05-22, 12:45 PM
Traitorous mechanic sabotaging plane engines.

HappyDaze
2020-05-22, 01:05 PM
I was thinking parody like the movie Airplane, but I've seen a lot of games fo that way.

McNum
2020-05-23, 12:36 PM
With it being the 30s, some rumblings of troubles in Europe could be a plot hook, too. There's a certain group that makes for both an excellent pulp enemy and a classic candidate for weird science in fiction. How does World War 2 play out, if it does, in your world?

And yes, a battle against a Zeppelin is mandatory here. Long silvery airship bristling with guns, launching enemy fighters hanging from below it. Yes. You must do this.

LurkytheDwarf
2020-05-23, 02:42 PM
I can't believe it hasn't been mentioned yet, but all you really need for ideas are episode summaries from Disney's TaleSpin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TaleSpin#Synopsis). Or watch the show, it's on Disney Plus. It has the 1930's, planes, sky pirates, ruthless businessmen, mad scientists, and Indiana Jones-style archaeology. Most of the ideas already put forward in this thread were included in one episode or another. And, I can't remember where I heard this, but I believe the Crimson Skies creators were influenced by the series.

LibraryOgre
2020-05-23, 02:45 PM
Bombing raids, infiltrations, hired as security, sabotage, police work

"We'll be coming in from the north, below their radar."
"When will you be back?"
"I can't tell you. It's classified."

:smallbiggrin:

Nifft
2020-05-23, 02:47 PM
My question to you all is this: what types of encounters would you, as a player, expect to have in this type of game? I'm trying to come up with as many ideas as possible for where--and what--the players might fight, but also interesting ideas for how they manage their fame outside the aircraft.

Unexpectedly, inside the plane there appear to be limbless reptiles of both venomous and constrictor types.

The snakes might be making insinuations regarding your female parent.

mucat
2020-05-24, 04:07 PM
I just wanted to tell you both: Good luck. We're all counting on you.
That's an entirely different kind of story, altogether.

Pauly
2020-05-24, 07:47 PM
1) Run, don’t walk, to watch Porco Rosso, a studio ghibli film set in a Euro version of your setting.

2) the “Biggles air detective” set of short stories. Biggles is a fictional WW1 ace and this set of short stories follows his post war adventures as a police detective solving air related crimes. “Biggles flies East” is a spy/air adventure set in the middle east in WW1 and can be adapted to a post WW1 setting. Some of the original WW1 set short stories that are set mostly on the ground can also be adapted.

E) Some of the early pulp hero adventures feature air pirates as significant bad guys. Lee Falk’s the Phantom, as well as some stories of The Shadow come to mind.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-05-25, 12:06 AM
You might be able to get some inspiration from The Blue Max (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Blue_Max), if you have a way to see (parts of) it. It focuses heavily on rivalry between pilots. They compete in everything: daring aerial stunts, testing new planes, official confirmed kills, lavish partying and of course love. But even when competing down on the ground it is always about flying and they will drop everything and everyone if that brings them closer to being the best pilot and to earning that prized "blue max" medal for shooting down loads of enemies. (None of the characters are super likable, but that's probably why they're German WW1 pilots, they're supposed to evoke a mixed bag of reactions.)

It's basically Top Gun with even larger egos and less volleyball. It's not the greatest movie ever, but it's a good cocky pilot movie.

(The best factoid about the film is that they had a scene in which they fly below a bridge as a dare repeatedly. On the final run they get close enough to the ground to scare the sheep. These sheep were supposed to show this was real, not model work. But they did multiple takes (they real life did the stunt the movie pilots thought of as crazy multiple times) and the sheep stopped running away after the first one. So they had to put a person down there to run after the sheep and scare them, because an airplane roaring overhead just wasn't doing it for them. And even with shepherd the sheep found things pretty boring by the time they got to the take that was used in the film.)

olskool
2020-05-25, 02:54 PM
TSR Hobbies actually made a game that is based on WWI fighter pilots that could be modified to the 5e skill system pretty easily. That game is called DAWN PATROL and you might be able to find a copy of it at Waynes World of Books or on eBay. We had lots of fun playing it and it would make a good base to work from.

D+1
2020-05-25, 05:43 PM
Sky Captain and the World of Tomorrow. Not the greatest movie but is all about the kind of game the OP is suggesting.

Pauly
2020-05-25, 09:49 PM
Here’s a link to an online Copy of the Phantom story i referred to earlier.

https://thephantom.fan/comic-strips/daily-stories-2/the-sky-band/

malloc
2020-05-26, 11:49 AM
First, thanks to everyone who took the time to read and respond. I appreciate your knowledge and enthusiasm. I read each post and will certainly reference the assorted reference materials mentioned, from cartoony to classic film.

Second, I promised to talk a bit about some of the encounters I was thinking of, and some elements I was going to include.

I haven't settled on a system yet; I am waffling between modifying "Warbirds", or possibly using a FATE-style game (I like the concept of tagging aspects and accruing major and minor wounds, which gives flexibility in terms of damage impact on machines). The final will likely be an amalgamation of the two, as both systems offer some obvious advantages.

The game's scope would be following the players as they ascend from hopeful youths to legendary pilots and media icons, doing battle with pirates and nations alike. Here are some things that were mentioned that I had planned to include:

1 Obviously, the theme will draw heavily on themes of art deco, the 20s/30s, piracy, pulpy noir, and the Wild West cowboy vibe of conquering the new frontier of the sky. Themes should follow diesel-punk designs. Not veering into Bioshock levels of weird science, but there will definitely be some "experimental" technologies.

2 In terms of combat encounters, you'll have your standard fetch, assault, protect, and defend themes. The obvious dogfights, strafing runs, and scouting missions come to mind, but I'm trying to come up with ways to mix it up. Generally, I've looked at it as an evolving battlefield type of situation, where combat transitions types in order to provide diversity (but other combat styles, or things to combat, would be appreciated!).

I think the easiest example would be the notorious zeppelin. They have an escort, interceptors, and gun platforms. First, you try and navigate through the enemy planes, quick dogfight with the interior interceptors, the do a mad strafing run on the zeppelin itself. 3 different styles of combat, strung together. It ends up looking like the assault on the Death Star, which I feel is a good indication that I'm on the right track.

Strafing then dogfighting, moving between aircraft and on foot, maybe even an experimental tank. I also like the idea of a boarding attack on a zeppelin...maybe having to capture a VIP who flees in an aircraft, so the players need to steal some and give chase. At some point, probably feature some type of experimental personal armor, like a Big Daddy, power suit, or Iron Man design. For combat, I am mostly hoping for some enemy diversity: what can I use that isn't aircraft, anti-aircraft guns, or ships?

3 One major aspect of the game that interests me is the celebrity element: flyboys and flygirls are the pop icons of this universe. Sex symbols, national heroes, and sports stars all in one. Players will acquire advertisement deals and face social scandals; parties, politics, and paparazzi will become their norm. What type of fun social encounters might follow our intrepid adventurers? To give players some agency on the topic, I will have them pick a "class" that describes their reason for flying, and modifies how frequent (and severe) different types of scandals are on their public image, and their sponsorships as well. Here are the classes:

Icon: someone motivated by personal gain of wealth or fame.
Artist: someone motivated by a desire to be the greatest pilot, or a love of flight.
Paragon: someone motivated by external obligations: protect the weak, provide for family, follow in parent's footsteps.
Crusader: someone motivated by a single cause: revenge, find the lost person/artifact, stop piracy for good.

If there is interest, I can expound upon those stubs.

What types of social challenges might crop up? What types of scandals might plague pilots (or specific classes)?

Once again, and to conclude this long post, a big thanks to everyone who has participated, and to everyone still to participate!

Democratus
2020-05-26, 01:24 PM
For a fun example of how a "zeppelin boarding action" might go - I refer you to the 1980 movie "Flash Gordon": the scene to capture Space Rocket Ajax. :smallcool:

Characters can either use rocket packs or hang gliders to jump from their plane to the Zeppelin.

The Fury
2020-06-04, 02:34 AM
It would be cool if there was a decent set of rules for aircraft-to-aircraft fights of course. If I were playing it, I'd also appreciate a system that allows players to customize their plane. Maybe there would be multiple airframes, engines and weapons that a player might choose.

Lvl 2 Expert
2020-06-04, 03:08 AM
It would be cool if there was a decent set of rules for aircraft-to-aircraft fights of course.

This is going to be a big one probably. Land vehicles often already barely work on a map/grid, for planes it might be better to not even try. Instead have some system that gives the planes positions relatively to each other. "She's on your tail, 3 steps away. Rather than trying to get closer she fires with the penalty and... misses." "Okay, I try to shake her using a.. let's see... dive. That reduces my height to 300 feet meaning I can't use the dive maneuver again and puts me in range of machine guns and infantry rifles on the ground, right?" "Right, but it's also more likely to successfully shake pursuit than a hard corner or pulling up. Roll for it."

A big problem with a system like that is how to make it work for more than two units. It's one thing to know where I am in relation to the plane on my six, but when two of my buddies are involved in their own 1v1's, the third one just freed up and wants to know who the closest ally they can help is and all the while we're still trying to head towards a target while also tracking how much fuel we have left it can become kind of complicated.

kyoryu
2020-06-04, 10:09 AM
This is going to be a big one probably. Land vehicles often already barely work on a map/grid, for planes it might be better to not even try. Instead have some system that gives the planes positions relatively to each other. "She's on your tail, 3 steps away. Rather than trying to get closer she fires with the penalty and... misses." "Okay, I try to shake her using a.. let's see... dive. That reduces my height to 300 feet meaning I can't use the dive maneuver again and puts me in range of machine guns and infantry rifles on the ground, right?" "Right, but it's also more likely to successfully shake pursuit than a hard corner or pulling up. Roll for it."

A big problem with a system like that is how to make it work for more than two units. It's one thing to know where I am in relation to the plane on my six, but when two of my buddies are involved in their own 1v1's, the third one just freed up and wants to know ho's the closest ally they can help and all the while we're still trying to head towards a target while also tracking how much fuel we have left it can become kind of complicated.

Tachyon Squadron for Fate works kinda like that. It's designed around spaceships, but most spaceship flight stuff (especially cinematic) is really just airplanes with laser beams anyway.

jayem
2020-06-04, 11:09 AM
I'm writing a campaign based loosely off the "Crimson Skies" universe. For those not familiar, basically the players are a mixture of pop icons and fighter pilots, set in the 1930s with some alternate history, most notably the fragmentation of the United States over prohibition. The setting is pulpy and diesel-punk.

My question to you all is this: what types of encounters would you, as a player, expect to have in this type of game? I'm trying to come up with as many ideas as possible for where--and what--the players might fight, but also interesting ideas for how they manage their fame outside the aircraft.

I will post some of my thoughts as well, but do not want to influence your ideas with the first post.

You might be able to nick some stuff from Biggles WW1 stories, (I think they got recycled for WW2 but not sure how well they work quite so late)
In particular a few stories involve having to do something beyond their planes specifications, and a few others to do with new threats.
And lots of stuck behind enemy lines stories (although they tend to be single person)*

I'm not sure how it works in the Crimson Skies Universe, but it might be the case that there's a sideline of politics entering in. I can't think of any good fictional examples that don't edge on real world politcs (I'll put Herr Flick from 'Allo 'Allo as hopefully giving a vague idea).

I'm not sure how you do it with an RPG, but Pop Icon's, if it were a film, one would definitely have a love interest over enemy lines and another a love triangle that creates drama.

Again going back to Biggles you get quite a lot of inter-squadron competitiveness and interaction

* actually the air detective stories mentioned have lots of interesting gimmicks (as you'd expect)

Nifft
2020-06-04, 01:03 PM
Windy Environmental Challenges:

- Imagine a great steel "landing" dock built on top of a mountain, where there are frequent winds strong enough to support a "stationary" plane. You don't actually land, you just slow down enough to become geostationary (and then the dock's clamps support your vessel, and you tether the nose to a chain). When you depart, the dock clamps release, and your plane rises up a bit on the chain, like a kite. When your engine starts, you release the chain and depart.

- Now take that same strength of wind, remove the dock, and you have an environment where the planes are VERY SLOW in one direction, which is presumably an interesting direction for some purpose or other. The planes being so slow makes interactions with ground forces (fortified on mountain tops or whatever) unusual in that the planes aren't moving too fast to engage. (This makes it possible to play on a much smaller map.) Escape is pretty easy -- just turn around and the wind will almost double your speed.

- Now do the above, but roll a d4 to determine the specific wind direction each round.
1 - East
2 - NE
3 - SE
4 - East but faster
This means that to avoid obstacles each turn, the planes need to compensate for three possible risks.

Excession
2020-06-07, 10:40 PM
One or more PCs are performing at an air-race in <Country A>. The secret service of <One PC's Country> wants their help to assassinate the leader of <Country A>. Now, this leader is not a nice guy, accused of some shady and nasty stuff, but does killing him solve anything? Does the PC risk their reputation to serve their country? Is the whole thing a false-flag operation by <Country C> to start a war that they can profit from by selling weapons to both sides?

First, it's a social situation that can separate character types. An Icon might do it for money, worry about losing their reputation, or look to come out as the "hero" that prevented it. An Artist might be against it because they want to win the race and not sully the sport with violence. A Paragon or Crusader might do it for their country, or because the want this dictator dead for their own reasons. Then it leads from social into a combat encounter or two, or just running away after the **** hits the propeller.

malloc
2020-06-09, 10:00 AM
Again, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to comment. Even if I did not quote you, I have read and appreciate your comment & will look into incorporating the assets or concepts involved.


It would be cool if there was a decent set of rules for aircraft-to-aircraft fights of course. If I were playing it, I'd also appreciate a system that allows players to customize their plane. Maybe there would be multiple airframes, engines and weapons that a player might choose.


This is going to be a big one probably. Land vehicles often already barely work on a map/grid, for planes it might be better to not even try. Instead have some system that gives the planes positions relatively to each other. "She's on your tail, 3 steps away. Rather than trying to get closer she fires with the penalty and... misses." "Okay, I try to shake her using a.. let's see... dive. That reduces my height to 300 feet meaning I can't use the dive maneuver again and puts me in range of machine guns and infantry rifles on the ground, right?" "Right, but it's also more likely to successfully shake pursuit than a hard corner or pulling up. Roll for it."

A big problem with a system like that is how to make it work for more than two units. It's one thing to know where I am in relation to the plane on my six, but when two of my buddies are involved in their own 1v1's, the third one just freed up and wants to know who the closest ally they can help is and all the while we're still trying to head towards a target while also tracking how much fuel we have left it can become kind of complicated.

Warbirds has an interesting set of dogfighting rules. I'm not knowledgeable about aircraft, but from a layperson's perspective, it hits the essential aircraft combat notes that I'm looking for:

1) The primary mechanic of the combat is initiative. You roll a "dogfight" check at the beginning of every turn to see who has the advantage--basically, who is behind the other person in space. Whomever is in front then decides what they're doing for the turn--basically, you can attempt a maneuver to try and gain an advantage in some way: defensively, towards initiative, or a return fire option. These all have fancy maneuver names and there are a few different options, but that's the basic overview. After the person in "front" (lowest initiative) decides what they're doing, then the person behind them shoots or has a few other options, but mostly shoots. Part of what balances this system is that bonuses to dogfight checks are either very difficult to obtain or impossible to obtain. Right now, basically only using them to represent difficulty: if the players are going up against an ace, that ace will have a small bonus (+1, probably). If they're going up against mooks, the players will gain +1 (because players like bonuses, and giving them +1 is the same as giving the baddies -1). On an unmodified 4dF check, +1 is a healthy bonus.

2) Combat is abstracted away from a grid. It's more theater of mind, which suits me in this instance--I'm not about to try and do complex 3D combat. Besides, the focus I'm going after isn't so much about the combat, it's about the story that the combat builds. The important part is giving players the opportunity to make choices that provide flavor to how their pilot operates, and making combat tense more than involved. The Fate system adds something to that--more on that later.

3) Combat is timed by fuel and altitude. There are specific rules for trying to make it back to base on low fuel. There are turn counters for altitude (dogfights are fought in descending spirals, basically, because you gain extra speed when going down, which often yields better mobility. So as the GM, I can pseudo-time fights for a specific number of rounds to ensure that the game continues on pace. Pilots do have the option of attempting to climb and re-engage, but enemies can also choose to flee at altitude 0.). Balancing fuel capacity and ordinance (and by extension, customizing aircraft) will feature.

4) There are a variety of different kinds of ordinance. Bombs, missiles, LMGs, cannons. Maybe even adding some experimental weapons--harpoons/grapples or something like that. There are a variety of aircraft bodies and engine types. I will create a living document for that equipment--if people have ideas as to what to include, I'm all ears.


In addition to the base Warbirds system (which is a 1d6 system where everyone is largely balanced, as your piloting check is the sum of your attributes, as opposed to being driven by a single "God stat" like dex in 5e), I want to mash Fate onto it. So it will use the Fate die system, but more importantly, the Fate consequences.

One thing that's nice about Fate is that it has built-in rules for critical damage. They're called consequences, and without getting too much into Fate's crunch, basically become additional (mechanical) aspects of whatever has been damaged. So in some games, when you suffer a big hit, the DM has to homebrew critical effects (oh, you've lost your hand, -5 on all attacks. Oh you've been hamstrung, your movespeed is reduced to 10 ft). In Fate, you literally just write down "damaged engine", and when it's cinematically appropriate, the DM or player (or another player) can say "I'm invoking your aspect, 'damaged engine' in order to make you take -2 on this roll. You can accept this and get a Fate point (and, y'know, play the game) or decline this by spending a Fate point (loser)". And it's as simple as that to manage damaged modules and equipment.

To me, that's what drives the tension of combat. You're in a metal tube, so high in the sky that if something goes wrong you're probably dead, and things start failing around you. How many more things can fail before you're a sitting duck? How many more before you're another pilot's confirmed kill? Watching modules and systems fail on your airplane is a much more visceral way of dying than just another "oh, you lost 15 HP, you're down to 37". It's not just some number--it's literally impacting your ability to function, so you FEEL the damage far more. And it doesn't add some huge, extra system, either: it's built into the core game and simple.


To touch briefly on some of the other points:
Multi-aircraft combat in a theater of mind setting doesn't complicate things too much. Debating on whether it takes an "action" to engage on a different aircraft (spend a turn to pick a new target, basically). I'll have to play a little bit and see how fast the turns are; ideally, they're quick and I can do something simple like that; if the turns take longer, probably just scrap that and let them engage instantly (winning the dogfight does represent some maneuvering and jockeying for position, after all)

I will look into Tachyon Squadron.

Politics are a big thing in this game. Basically, the USA has shattered into a bunch of nation-states over prohibition (among other topics). Internal politics are definitely a thing as each of these nations tries to establish itself as a major player in the new Ununited (Disunited?) States of America. Back room deals, bribes, and double-crossing should be a feature. This should have a bit of a pulpy mock film noir veneer on it. Prohibition, mob land, 'adult themes' (all in fade-to-black, but romance and the 'fast' lifestyle of the 20s to add to the mock noir feel), crime, corruption, betrayal, and the tragic catwoman style on-again, off-again villain. What types of political requests can you think of being made? Obviously, "endorse me", "make public appearance with me" etc. What types of things might a politician request specifically of a pilot? Safe correspondence, spying on enemies, murder? Anything else you can think of?


One or more PCs are performing at an air-race in <Country A>. The secret service of <One PC's Country> wants their help to assassinate the leader of <Country A>. Now, this leader is not a nice guy, accused of some shady and nasty stuff, but does killing him solve anything? Does the PC risk their reputation to serve their country? Is the whole thing a false-flag operation by <Country C> to start a war that they can profit from by selling weapons to both sides?

First, it's a social situation that can separate character types. An Icon might do it for money, worry about losing their reputation, or look to come out as the "hero" that prevented it. An Artist might be against it because they want to win the race and not sully the sport with violence. A Paragon or Crusader might do it for their country, or because the want this dictator dead for their own reasons. Then it leads from social into a combat encounter or two, or just running away after the **** hits the propeller.

This is an excellent suggestion for a number of reasons:
1) It interfaces the social aspect with the primary thematic focus, airplanes.
2) It lists a number of possible reactions by players, showing that it is capable of a diversity of opinion & lends itself well to a player-driven choice, as opposed to a single, obvious response.
3) It interfaces specifically with the proposed mechanics.

I really appreciate this, thank you.

kyoryu
2020-06-09, 11:42 AM
You're sliiiiightly off on a few Fate bits, feel free to ping me if you'd like clarifications.

Excession
2020-06-09, 05:12 PM
I really appreciate this, thank you.

You're welcome. I like the way those four classes work, thinking about how each would react helped expand on the initial idea in my head.

Also, here's a theme song for the Artist class:

https://youtu.be/T26NWnTcGJk

malloc
2020-06-11, 03:03 PM
You're sliiiiightly off on a few Fate bits, feel free to ping me if you'd like clarifications.

The system is not strictly Fate, but pulls from the core components of the system. It's an amalgamation of Fate and Warbirds, with some simplifications.I


You're welcome. I like the way those four classes work, thinking about how each would react helped expand on the initial idea in my head.

Also, here's a theme song for the Artist class:

https://youtu.be/T26NWnTcGJk

I think that a lot of players can use structure to help them get in character. Fate does a lot towards helping players get into the game, forcing interaction with the setting. Hopefully these classes, combined with the system's mechanics, will create players more willing to immerse themselves in the game.