DnD 3.5 Core only (PHB, MM, DMG) Cleric build help

[Grochen]

So I'm creating a Cleric with my DnD group (reentering it) and our group has a druid and a wizard. My stat rolls are pretty good 18 17 16 13 12 11. What would you suggest? What kind of Cleric would be better for this team? Druids aren't exactly buffable with Cleric since Greater Magic Weapon and Magic Vestment doesn't work with shapeshifting. Cleric doesn't really offer much damage either. Should I just go melee? But not having access to persist spell or divine metamagic makes me question melee builds. Anyway any ideas? I will start Lvl 8

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wood Elf in the Monster Manual gets Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2, and all the standard Elf goodies like longbow proficiency. Go Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 11 after adjustments for a ranged build, or swap Str and Dex for melee.

You can't really go wrong making a Dwarf Cleric otherwise. A melee build would probably go Str 18, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 17, Cha 11 after adjustments.

Are you going to stick with Cleric, or take a prestige class? The only decent core choice is Thaumaturgist, which allows you to get a Ghaele planar cohort at level 12. Would you be able to pick up prestige classes from other books? The Sun domain is pretty good if you'll have full turn undead advancement, and you can't really go wrong with the Travel or Trickery domains.

[Grochen]

Wood Elf in the Monster Manual gets Str +2, Dex +2, Con -2, Int -2, and all the standard Elf goodies like longbow proficiency. Go Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 11 after adjustments for a ranged build, or swap Str and Dex for melee.

You can't really go wrong making a Dwarf Cleric otherwise. A melee build would probably go Str 18, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 17, Cha 11 after adjustments.

Are you going to stick with Cleric, or take a prestige class? The only decent core choice is Thaumaturgist, which allows you to get a Ghaele planar cohort at level 12. Would you be able to pick up prestige classes from other books? The Sun domain is pretty good if you'll have full turn undead advancement, and you can't really go wrong with the Travel or Trickery domains.

No prestige classes from other books it's strictly core. I thought about Thaumaturgist but we have 1 summon monster/nature ally per person rule augmenting summoning feels like a waste with that rule. Is it still worth it?

Ranged option actually looks pretty nice. But wouldn't damage be low without much str?

For melee is morningstar or mace enough to deal good damage? I was thinking about having an animated shield so I can two hand those for 1.5 str bonus

Also I forgot add in OP but I will start 8 lvl

[crankykobold]

For core only you dont need a lot of optimizing with a cleric. I'll second the melee Dwarf idea tho, especially with the summoning restrictions. Grab a morningstar and two hand it.

[Saintheart]

For melee is morningstar or mace enough to deal good damage? I was thinking about having an animated shield so I can two hand those for 1.5 str bonus

This is where what you want to do with the character starts to impact on the answers. If it's frontline melee, then mace or morningstar aren't bad, it's just you can do a lot better depending on how complicated you want to get.

You're 8th level, that means you've got access to Divine Power, which I assume you're going to be spamming so you can stay in the frontline. If so, and especially if you're planning to have both hands free via an Animated shield, then you might as well go hunting for a two-handed weapon; these have better damage dice for the most part. The trick, of course, is that virtually all of them are martial weapons, which you're not proficient with.

The way around that is the War domain for clerics, which grants free martial weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus in a martial weapon. So that comes down to picking the right god with that domain and with the weapon you want ... albeit if you're restricted right down to gods out of the PHB, that list is pretty restrictive and the list of martial weapons isn't great. Moradin doesn't have the War domain (not in the PHB at least) and the only weapon he would grant if he did is the warhammer, which still puts out a 1d8 damage dice and the only real improvement is that the critical multiplier is x3 rather than x2.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Starting at 8th level, you'll have three feats and two +1's for ability scores, and 27k gp worth of gear.

Wood Elf: Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 11, Sun and Travel domains, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot. Masterwork Composite Longbow (Str +3), Mithral Breastplate, Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed (which is only 9,000 gp per the DMG), +1 Animated Heavy Shield, Lesser Rod of Extend, Wand of Cure Light Wounds. Activate the Bead of Karma and buff your armor and shield with Magic Vestment +3, and your bow with Greater Magic Weapon +3. A full attack with the bow and rapid shot is at +11/+11/+6 for 1d8+6, if you're within 30 ft. that's another +1 to hit and damage, if you cast Divine Favor that's another +2 which goes to +3 at 9th level. You're reliably doing about 30+ damage per round from a distance, which isn't bad at that level.

Dwarf: Str 18, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 11, Wis 18, Cha 12, Sun and War (Dwarven Waraxe) domains, I'm honestly not sure what feats to get, maybe Extend Sell and/or Improved Turning and/or Improved Initiative and/or item creation feats. Masterwork Dwarven Waraxe, Masterwork Full Plate, Masterwork Heavy Shield, Handy Haversack, Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed (still only 9,000 gp per the DMG), Lesser Rod of Extend.... Buff your axe, armor, and shield to +3 with the bead of karma, cast Divine Power and swing away one-handed for +18/+13 and 1d10+10, consider taking Power Attack and an animated shield.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Summoning is still fine even if you can only summon 1 beastie at a time. It depends on whether you have free feats for Augment Summoning, but it's not like there are all that many good feats in Core anyway, and summons are a godsend for prepared casters who need extra versatility.

Other options: You'll probably want Quicken Spell, just as a rule. I'd grab a reach weapon over a morningstar unless you're going archer-cleric. Also don't go archer-cleric. Even with a Druid and their AC, you'll still be going toe-to-toe with the enemy quite a bit.

[Endarire]

Core Cleric is normally Half-Orc for melee, Elf for archery, Dwarf for something, or Human for something.

Animate dead is still useful. My fave Cleric domains are Travel and Magic which you can get as an ethos Cleric, not revering a specific deity. TN is the best alignment for options, but if you take an alignment domain, you can craft alignment bane (Holy, etc.) weapons.

Remember, you can craft items! Yes, I wrote it twice. It's that useful.

How long is this game likely to last?

[Biggus]

So I'm creating a Cleric with my DnD group (reentering it) and our group has a druid and a wizard.

Are those the only other party members?

Also, do you have know what the role(s) the Druid plays in the team? Melee, summoning, attacking with spells...?


Cleric doesn't really offer much damage either. Should I just go melee? But not having access to persist spell or divine metamagic makes me question melee builds.

The lack of DMM Persist doesn't mean a Cleric is bad in melee, it just means they aren't insanely good at it. At 9th level you can stack Divine Favor for +3 attack and damage with Bless, Divine Power and Righteous Might, plus Shield of Faith and Bear's Endurance for defence. Obviously being able to cast all of those depends on knowing combat is imminent which won't always be the case, but as DF, SoF and Bless are 1st-level spells it's practical to Quicken them by middle levels.

If you don't have a suitable War domain deity available to give you a good weapon proficiency, it might be worth spending a feat on one: a greatsword has base damage of 3d6 when combined with RM, for example.

[Endarire]

Spiked Chain is my favorite melee weapon if you're using a feat for proficiency.

[Doctor Despair]

Spiked Chain is my favorite melee weapon if you're using a feat for proficiency.

Is that core? I think I remember someone recently using a guisarme + spiked gauntlet in lieu of a spiked chain because the chain wasn't, but I could be mistaken.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

Spiked Chain is Core, proving once again that the most broken book in the game is the PHB.

Notably, Spiked Chain is the only Core Exotic 2-handed weapon that isn't a double weapon. And the only 1-handed Exotics in core are the Bastard Sword and Dwarven Waraxe, both of which can be wielded 2-handed by a 1st lvl Fighter. There is no Core EWP for a 2-handed fighter that is better than a Greatsword, and the only thing better than a normal Glaive is the Spiked Chain. There is no "reasonably powerful" choice for EWP in Core.

[el minster]

Kord has good domains for melee.

[Grochen]

Are those the only other party members?

Also, do you have know what the role(s) the Druid plays in the team? Melee, summoning, attacking with spells...?



The lack of DMM Persist doesn't mean a Cleric is bad in melee, it just means they aren't insanely good at it. At 9th level you can stack Divine Favor for +3 attack and damage with Bless, Divine Power and Righteous Might, plus Shield of Faith and Bear's Endurance for defense. Obviously being able to cast all of those depends on knowing combat is imminent which won't always be the case, but as DF, SoF and Bless are 1st-level spells it's practical to Quicken them by middle levels.

If you don't have a suitable War domain deity available to give you a good weapon proficiency, it might be worth spending a feat on one: a greatsword has base damage of 3d6 when combined with RM, for example.

Yes those are only party members. Druid is mostly melee (has all needed wild shape feats). If it was something like a fighter I would just be a buffer but you can't really buff the druid :/

More often than not we DON'T know we are about to fight so prebuffing (unless it's hour/level) is pretty much nonexistent.

[Lilapop]

Could go trickery domain etc, to claim the skillmonkey niche. For prebuffing, maybe there are some short range divination spells, or a sneaky animal, or you yourself with trickery domain, to find out what lurks ahead?

That being said...

Its the 21st century. Why on earth are people still playing with rolled stats, allowing a tier 1 caster to get the equivalent of pointbuy FIFTYONE, while some poor beatstick gets unlucky and rolls... let me... 10 10 10 8 15 12, equivalent to pointbuy 18? Which by RAW can't be rerolled (highest is 15 and sum of mods is +2), and yes I rolled that first try.

Now granted, your party is nothing but tier 1 casters, so you appear to be running some kind of experiment. But I've seen so many other people with "regular" party setups come in here and mention their rolled stats. I just... don't get it.

Meh. Let that be my unproductive rant for the day.

[Grochen]

Core Cleric is normally Half-Orc for melee, Elf for archery, Dwarf for something, or Human for something.

Animate dead is still useful. My fave Cleric domains are Travel and Magic which you can get as an ethos Cleric, not revering a specific deity. TN is the best alignment for options, but if you take an alignment domain, you can craft alignment bane (Holy, etc.) weapons.

Remember, you can craft items! Yes, I wrote it twice. It's that useful.

How long is this game likely to last?

What are alignment domains? Good, evil etc. ?

[Grochen]

Could go trickery domain etc, to claim the skillmonkey niche. For prebuffing, maybe there are some short range divination spells, or a sneaky animal, or you yourself with trickery domain, to find out what lurks ahead?

That being said...

Its the 21st century. Why on earth are people still playing with rolled stats, allowing a tier 1 caster to get the equivalent of pointbuy FIFTYONE, while some poor beatstick gets unlucky and rolls... let me... 10 10 10 8 15 12, equivalent to pointbuy 18? Which by RAW can't be rerolled (highest is 15 and sum of mods is +2), and yes I rolled that first try.

Now granted, your party is nothing but tier 1 casters, so you appear to be running some kind of experiment. But I've seen so many other people with "regular" party setups come in here and mention their rolled stats. I just... don't get it.

Meh. Let that be my unproductive rant for the day.

Haha well it's rolled stats but our GM is pretty flexible. You will get one 18 if you can't roll one or roll something like 18-11-10-12-15. So all 3 of us have good rolls.

It's not an experiment, we just happened to like those classes. I play pretty much every divine character in any rpg I play. Our druid loves shapeshifting characters and our wizard just loves wizards. It's good and bad, while we have a lot of options we also get screwed if we get ambushed.

[crankykobold]

... 10 10 10 8 15 12, equivalent to pointbuy 18


When have you ever seen someone post "these were my stat rolls 10 10 10 8 15 12"? Its always "My Stat rolls were OK 18 17 17 15 13 12". Those are just OK, they will make do but not the best. Dice were thrown on the table but the DM wasn't looking.