Where does Eldritch Blast come from?

[Makorel]

The exclusivity of Eldritch Blast always struck me as kind of strange. When a Warlock makes a pact with a patron they get access to the forbidden arcane secret that is Eldritch Blast. Taking levels in Warlock is the only way to gain Eldritch Blast as a spell, except for Magic Initiate and the Bard's Magical Secrets.

While it's not hard to gain that first level in Warlock it's worth noting that absolutely no one else gets this spell; not Wizards, not Druids, not even Clerics of the same entity would get Eldritch Blast. The only non-Warlocks that can get EB only are able to because they steal knowledge of the technique from the Warlock's spell list, perhaps in the same way the Warlocks stole the same knowledge from their patrons.

And yet the patrons of Warlocks are not the kind I would see getting together to share information. Patrons run the gamut of qausi-godlike entities, from Fiend to Celestial with many other potential candidates for patrons in between such as the fey, a lich and eldritch horrors, and even potentially genies, krakens and the machine spirit if you read UA. All potentially powerful beings that have their own motivations to not get along and keep their secrets guarded and yet every one of them knows Eldritch Blast.

But do these beings actually know Eldritch Blast? When was the last time you say a Fey, Fiend or eponymous Eldritch Horror cast Eldritch Blast? These other potential patrons like Liches and Celestials don't seem to be able to produce the effects of an Eldritch Blast like a Warlock can either.

So to sum up, we have a spell that is either unknown, forbidden, or unreplicable in conventional mortal magic circles, Is seemingly known by all patrons and yet unused by them, which leaves us with the Warlocks themselves as the only proper users of Eldritch Blast. Does this seem weird to anyone else or is it just me?

[Wizard_Lizard]

hmm.. that is weird..

[clash]

Eldritch blast is harnessing the raw power of the contract between man a patron as a weapon against your enemies. It comes from making the deal and it doesn't matter who you made the deal with. Our something like that.

[Warlush]

Apparently back in the day there were no cantrips, like all spells used a slot. So Eldritch Blast was like an at-will ability that only Warlocks got. And it still absorbed a bunch of opportunity cost to make it awesome. They changed it to a cantrip for 5e, so that's the logic of it being on the one and only list. Seems to me anyway.
I mean only Clerics get Sacred Flame. Only Druids get thorn whip. Only Bards get vicious mockery. You know, not all casters are supposed to feel the same.

[Tanarii]

Special warlock hand to hand combat training in mountaintop monasteries.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/XSuVW.jpg

[NaughtyTiger]

Special warlock hand to hand combat training in mountaintop monasteries.

https://i.stack.imgur.com/XSuVW.jpg

how did this not show up in the 4e discussion...

[Arkhios]

Quite probably because when Warlock was first introduced to D&D (in 3.5) Eldritch Blast was a so-called 'Spell-Like Ability' as a Class Feature that was usable 'At-Will' (both 'quoted' terms are actual in-game terms in that edition). As such, it was a Warlock-Only 'Spell'. At-Will was used for any spell (or usually a spell) that could be cast as many times you liked per day, not expending any kind of resource. Keep in mind that in 3.5 even Cantrips (or Orisons for divine classes) used spell slots, and weren't 'At-Will' the same way they are in Pathfinder.

Essentially, 3.5 Warlock's Eldritch Blast can be seen as one of the gateway mechanisms that led to 4th edition mentality that all classes have At-Will abilities from the get-go. The Tome-Which-Name-I've-Blissfully-Forgotten was the same for martials.

[Varlon]

Eldritch blast is harnessing the raw power of the contract between man a patron as a weapon against your enemies. It comes from making the deal and it doesn't matter who you made the deal with. Our something like that.

I essentially agree with this and all of OP's lore about the spell being secret knowledge and stuff seems to be made up. Eldritch Blast can be just a way to channel magical energy from an outside source and unleash it.

[KOLE]

Honestly, I don’t know if there’s an in character or lore correct way to answer this question. Eldritch Blast is purely a meta invention to keep Warlocks relevant against other casters in exchange for short rest slots. I don’t think there’s any way around this. It’s part of why I kind of dislike it. It’s something that screams “Mechanic”, devoid of flavor. I tried to solve this in my home rules by making the damage type change based on your patron, as this at least have flavor to “channelling your patrons energy directly” but I’m starting to think it’s an unnecesary nerf.

[chainer1216]

The Tome-Which-Name-I've-Blissfully-Forgotten

Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords

[Hael]

EB is one of the worst design decisions in all of 5e, b/c the existence of this thing instantly creates balance problems for multiple classes.
1) The fact that it's not a class feature is ridiculous. If a newbie fails to pick this cantrip and wasn't playing a melee Hexblade, the resulting warlock class would be straight garbage and completely mechanically unacceptable..
2) Relatedly, b/c this is so strong, the normal warlock class can not be given too much of a buff (despite being deeply problematic in many aspects).
3) It creates one of the most boring and repetitive actions in the game.
4) It makes dedicated melee warlocks sub optimal (b/c of course ranged attacks should be more damaging than melee)
5) It's completely front loaded as a resourceless damage package, you get absolutely nothing after 2 lvls (which encourages multiclassing into a superior chassis) and of course it scales with player lvl.

It also creates all sorts of multiclassing nightmares. For instance taking 1 or 2 lvls in Warlock instantly makes bards relevant in combat throughout the game without spending resources, thereby removing one of their only drawbacks.

It really makes the sorcerer class a sub-optimal pick. The so called blaster class of 3.5 is trivialized by another classes cantrip, unless of course they also take lvls in it, in which case it creates one of the most OP combinations in the entire game (surpassing pure ranged fighter dpr all the way through lvl 20).

Ranged martials like a ranger? Why play them and waste ammo, when you can do close to the same damage with a 2 lvl dip.

When the next edition comes out, they need to rework this entirely. The Warlock needs to be appropriately compensated, and new thematically relevant mechanics and choices need to be introduced to up their damage output.

[Tanarii]

Originally (per 3.5 The Complete Arcane) "Warlocks were born not made". And eldritch blast was a supernatural power that attacked with "baleful energy", untyped, but subject to magic resistances.

So any weird reconciliation issues are straight up because it's changed from an inborn blast of baleful energy, to a force-damage cantrip spell learned/stolen/instilled by the pact.

Edit : also it had 12 invocations to buff it. Warlocks were basically an Eldritch Blast machine from the get go.

[Lvl45DM!]

EB is one of the worst design decisions in all of 5e, b/c the existence of this thing instantly creates balance problems for multiple classes.
1) The fact that it's not a class feature is ridiculous. If a newbie fails to pick this cantrip and wasn't playing a melee Hexblade, the resulting warlock class would be straight garbage and completely mechanically unacceptable..
2) Relatedly, b/c this is so strong, the normal warlock class can not be given too much of a buff (despite being deeply problematic in many aspects).
3) It creates one of the most boring and repetitive actions in the game.
4) It makes dedicated melee warlocks sub optimal (b/c of course ranged attacks should be more damaging than melee)
5) It's completely front loaded as a resourceless damage package, you get absolutely nothing after 2 lvls (which encourages multiclassing into a superior chassis) and of course it scales with player lvl.

It also creates all sorts of multiclassing nightmares. For instance taking 1 or 2 lvls in Warlock instantly makes bards relevant in combat throughout the game without spending resources, thereby removing one of their only drawbacks.

It really makes the sorcerer class a sub-optimal pick. The so called blaster class of 3.5 is trivialized by another classes cantrip, unless of course they also take lvls in it, in which case it creates one of the most OP combinations in the entire game (surpassing pure ranged fighter dpr all the way through lvl 20).

Ranged martials like a ranger? Why play them and waste ammo, when you can do close to the same damage with a 2 lvl dip.

When the next edition comes out, they need to rework this entirely. The Warlock needs to be appropriately compensated, and new thematically relevant mechanics and choices need to be introduced to up their damage output.

Just make it scale with caster level and that solves most of the issues. The rest can be solved by refusing to let them off easy with their patron, RP-wise.

But in regards to the larger question...what is a Warlock?
A Warlock makes a bargain for power. Thats it. The Eldritch blast is the most common way of any being with which you can bargain manifesting said power. Boom. Laser beam of damage. Its a direct conversion of the energy from the patron into energy you shoot.

[Nifft]

I opened up this thread expecting answers like "the palms", or "finger-guns", or "EYEBEAMS", or even "when you're half-Bard Warlock it can totally come from a savage pelvic thrust".

Force damage is not a real-world damage type, so you're allowed some leeway in imagination. Maybe it's literally just force of will, and your patron is shooting force of will damage out of your finger-guns when you chant the secret phrase meaning "please o great one, be angry in this direction where I'm pointing right now". When your patron is live and in person, it doesn't need to send waves of angry force at people, it can just walk over and stab them in the face directly, which (as we all know) is much more satisfying.

[Sigreid]

A little known part of the pact is your patron shoving a kyber crystal up where the sun dont shine. EB is manafistation of your inner lightsaber energy. /badjoke

[Arkhios]

Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords

Thank you, though I would've survived without a reminder. :smallamused:

[Composer99]

I daresay the fluff of eldritch blast fits sorcerers better. They themselves are conduits of magical power. It just makes sense that they ought to be able to just fire rays of it from their finger-guns or what-have-you.

This could open up some more flavour for each patron by letting them bestow a combat cantrip and a utility cantrip upon the warlock, and then either the patron or invocations can provide buffs that can boost warlock spells, including cantrips, ensuring their damage can keep up even when they're out of spell slot mojo.

(I would have said that warlock spell slot progression would fit better on sorcerer as well, and to some degree it does, but because warlocks have invocations, which are cool and, at least in my view, nicely thematic, it makes it hard to justify giving warlocks the full spellcasting progression; on the other hand half-caster progression à la paladin or ranger feels bad for non-bladelocks.)

[Millstone85]

I daresay the fluff of eldritch blast fits sorcerers better.Fluff-wise, they may as well have merged these two classes. I mean, what if you want to play an elf who draws from their fey ancestry? Or a tiefling, from their fiendish heritage? How about a character who made a pact with a dragon, as mentioned in the very description of the draconic bloodline?

Now, an Intlock, with more emphasis on the forbidden knowledge than on the otherwordly influence, would be a very different beast.

[Fable Wright]

But do these beings actually know Eldritch Blast? When was the last time you say a Fey, Fiend or eponymous Eldritch Horror cast Eldritch Blast? These other potential patrons like Liches and Celestials don't seem to be able to produce the effects of an Eldritch Blast like a Warlock can either.

Note, too, that not all Warlocks need have Eldritch Blast. And when's the last time you've seen a Celestial or a Fey use Hex? Or use the power of Agathys or Hadar, both (per 4e fluff) malign stars from beyond the mortal sphere that seek the end of the multiverse?

No, what Eldritch Blast is isn't is knowledge from the patron. It is a side effect of the pact. When a Warlock makes a pact, they don't get only what powers their patron offers. Their soul becomes a conduit for the energies of the multiverse, whether that simply be in ill-formed curses without clean effects, the offered powers of fel stars, or even channeling the energy of their own soul into blasting people.

That's my theory, at any rate, and it handily answers the question of why no one else would use it. Why would a Cleric or Druid risk their own immortal soul? How could Celestials, Fey, Fiends, or Liches channel energies from souls that they don't have? And why would a wizard ever dissect his own soul simply to throw it at people?

[Dr. Cliché]

But do these beings actually know Eldritch Blast? When was the last time you say a Fey, Fiend or eponymous Eldritch Horror cast Eldritch Blast? These other potential patrons like Liches and Celestials don't seem to be able to produce the effects of an Eldritch Blast like a Warlock can either.

So to sum up, we have a spell that is either unknown, forbidden, or unreplicable in conventional mortal magic circles, Is seemingly known by all patrons and yet unused by them, which leaves us with the Warlocks themselves as the only proper users of Eldritch Blast. Does this seem weird to anyone else or is it just me?

That's actually a good point.

Thinking about it, I find myself wondering whether a slightly-refluffed Bard would actually make for a better Warlock than the current Warlock. I know this probably sounds insane but hear me out:
- You've got nightmarish psychic attacks (e.g. Dissonant Whispers, Hideous Laughter, Phantasmal Force etc.) for Great Old One patrons.
- You've got all manner of glamour and illusion spells for Fae patrons.
- You've similarly got Suggestion and other manipulative spells and abilities for pacts with Devils. Granted, you haven't got as many offensive spells but:
- You've got Forbidden Lore, sorry: "Bard Secrets" with which to take extra spells from any other class in the game. Want more fire spells to satisfy a fiend patron? No problem!
- In addition to this, the Bard can also be highly-skilled in anything. Magic is all well and good but you don't want to rely on it all the time, right?
- Also, the bard can be incredibly persuasive even before spells. Aside perhaps from Great Old Ones, wouldn't you want a servant who stands a good chance of convincing others to join your cause?
- It would also provide a coherent explanation for where a Bard's magic actually comes from, but that's a rant for another time. :smallwink:



I daresay the fluff of eldritch blast fits sorcerers better. They themselves are conduits of magical power. It just makes sense that they ought to be able to just fire rays of it from their finger-guns or what-have-you.

That's also a good point and seems much closer to what the designers had in mind for the Warlock in 3.5 (which was based on fiendish ancestry, not on any pact). Yeah, Eldritch Blast would make vastly more sense as a core Sorcerer mechanic.

[RSP]

In general, 5e could have taken a page from Savage Worlds and made spell effects that PCs use, but left the fluff of the chosen spell up to the Player.

Specifically, my current bladdlock has refluffed EB to be throwing knives. The in-game visual is he shifts his pact weapon into knives and tosses those (similar to what Hela does in Ragnorak).

[Tanarii]

That's also a good point and seems much closer to what the designers had in mind for the Warlock in 3.5 (which was based on fiendish ancestry, not on any pact). Yeah, Eldritch Blast would make vastly more sense as a core Sorcerer mechanic.
Act-ually (pendantic nerd voice) they were descendants of people who had made pacts with fiends. So it still derived from a pact, just also from ancestry,

In 5e that certainly could still be a sorcerer thing. Apparently. But the line between sorcerer and warlock is a grab-bag mashup in 5e anyway.

They really should have been one class. Or rather, the Sorcerer class has always struck me as unnecessary.

[Chronos]

All the folks I know who have played warlocks have fluffed their eldritch blasts differently. My friend's feylock shot beams of glowing green nature-energy, but my goolock's blasts were traveling rifts where the fabric of spacetime separated and rejoined (and where they hit a creature, didn't rejoin in quite the right way). In practice, they were completely different spells, that just had the same mechanics (well, mostly the same: I don't think we took the same invocations for it).


Quoth Hael:

5) It's completely front loaded as a resourceless damage package, you get absolutely nothing after 2 lvls (which encourages multiclassing into a superior chassis) and of course it scales with player lvl.
I've long thought that the scaling of cantrips (all of them) should be a class feature of the full-casting classes, not a property of the cantrips themselves. Just like a fighter 4/barbarian 4 still doesn't have Extra Attack, a wizard 4/sorcerer 4 should still be doing 1d10 damage with their firebolts. And if you pick up a cantrip via feat or a brief dip, then you'll never get increased damage from it.

[Democratus]

The Warlock design space is a little weird. The mechanics only vaguely serve the fluff.

Questions like this are a great opportunity, though.

Where does Eldritch Blast come from? This is a chance to put your own world's unique stamp into the class.

In one world I have run, anyone who wants to become a Warlock must quest to one of the many Crystal Temples across the world. Once in the temple, they must put their hands on the glowing crystal altar and reach out with their will to find a patron.

Their bodies are infused with the energies of the crystal conduit and - if they survive "the linking" - they will be able to channel this energy into Eldritch Blasts.

If they do not survive 'the linking', they become a terrible monster infused with otherworldly energies (abbherations).

I also forbid any other class from having this spell - even classes that can normally steal from other lists.

[FaerieGodfather]

(I would have said that warlock spell slot progression would fit better on sorcerer as well, and to some degree it does, but because warlocks have invocations, which are cool and, at least in my view, nicely thematic, it makes it hard to justify giving warlocks the full spellcasting progression; on the other hand half-caster progression à la paladin or ranger feels bad for non-bladelocks.)

I would have really liked to have seen Pact Magic as a class feature coexisting with Spellcasting, on either a full spellcaster or a half spellcaster. It's not that far removed from the Wizard and Sorcerer spell recovery mechanics, is it?

[Lvl 2 Expert]

The ability to grant Eldritch Blast is for magical reasons rather tricky. The granter must be more powerful than any mortal, but they must also be 3 quiddity beings.

Order of the stick to the rescue!

[Tanarii]

I would have really liked to have seen Pact Magic as a class feature coexisting with Spellcasting, on either a full spellcaster or a half spellcaster. It's not that far removed from the Wizard and Sorcerer spell recovery mechanics, is it?
Warlocks are just short rest full casters instead of long rest full casters. The progress up to 9th level spells at level 17, which is the definition of a full caster. On top of that their SPE (Spell point equivalent) is more or less in the same ballpark as Spellcasting feature full casters.

What are you envisioning by "coexisting"?

[clash]

I've long thought that the scaling of cantrips (all of them) should be a class feature of the full-casting classes, not a property of the cantrips themselves. Just like a fighter 4/barbarian 4 still doesn't have Extra Attack, a wizard 4/sorcerer 4 should still be doing 1d10 damage with their firebolts. And if you pick up a cantrip via feat or a brief dip, then you'll never get increased damage from it.

I agree with this 100% and started a thread a while back about it. Casters should have a feature called improved cantrips which they get at 5, 11, and 17 which like extra attack doesn't stack so you need at least 11 levels in a single full caster class to have 3dx damage on cantrips.

[Composer99]

All the folks I know who have played warlocks have fluffed their eldritch blasts differently. My friend's feylock shot beams of glowing green nature-energy, but my goolock's blasts were traveling rifts where the fabric of spacetime separated and rejoined (and where they hit a creature, didn't rejoin in quite the right way). In practice, they were completely different spells, that just had the same mechanics (well, mostly the same: I don't think we took the same invocations for it).

I love it. That's a great way to rehabilitate the spell, as it were.

[KOLE]

I agree with this 100% and started a thread a while back about it. Casters should have a feature called improved cantrips which they get at 5, 11, and 17 which like extra attack doesn't stack so you need at least 11 levels in a single full caster class to have 3dx damage on cantrips.
While I personally house rule that Eldritch Blast is a class feature that only levels with class level, this feels like an unnecesary hamstringing of every other caster in the game. No cantrip comes close to competing with martials for dpr at each level, except for edge cases with the SCAG cantrips. This is excessive punishment. I can sympathize with trying to narrow the gap between martials and casters, but gimping the idea of multiclassing for any full caster is far too much.

[FaerieGodfather]

What are you envisioning by "coexisting"?

I mean that they have both Pact Magic and (full or half) Spellcasting, instead of Pact Magic and Mystic Arcanum. Preferably in a way that interacts with the multiclassing rules.

[Warlush]

I love Eldritch Blast. I've only ever played 5e, and I rarely multiclass out of warlock. And I've never found the need to go sorc to abuse quicken.
Warlock's are a fun to play, they are totally viable without multiclassing or feats, and they give you some of the most fun options, and further more I've always loved casting EB every round. It's amazing and effective and fun.

[Willie the Duck]

So to sum up, we have a spell that is either unknown, forbidden, or unreplicable in conventional mortal magic circles, Is seemingly known by all patrons and yet unused by them, which leaves us with the Warlocks themselves as the only proper users of Eldritch Blast. Does this seem weird to anyone else or is it just me?

As others have mentioned, it is a gamist artifice from when warlocks were introduced in mid-D&D 3.5 shoehorned into the spellcasting system.

Beyond that, it is hardly a rare situation that a spell only exist in the spell list of one class. That used to be the norm. I'm not sure one needs to read too much into that. Up until we got some cleric domains grabbing them up, I believe only paladins got the '____ing smite' spells because they were, you know, kinda the paladin's thing (and yes, the whole borrow-from-other-spell-list feats and class features mean that nothing is ever really only one class's thing). As to why (almost) all warlocks get that spell, even though their patrons either don't have it (if they are stated entities) or it doesn't seem appropriate to them, well it seems to me to be the same as why clerics of the god of pain and suffering still have access to Cure spells -- simple convenience.

Regardless, I think the entire framework of having multiple arcane caster classes, each with their own justification for why they are casting spells (this one studied hard, that one has it in their blood, this one made a pact, that one is a bard) is something where the mechanical implementation of said distinction doesn't really match the flavor (specifically) without some real suspension of incredulity. I mean, why does learning magic because of ancestry mean that you get these weird metamagic riders to your spells?

Certainly a grand opportunity to insert your own justifications. However, to the question of do I find that weird, the answer is 'no, D&D does stuff like this all over the place.'

[clash]

While I personally house rule that Eldritch Blast is a class feature that only levels with class level, this feels like an unnecesary hamstringing of every other caster in the game. No cantrip comes close to competing with martials for dpr at each level, except for edge cases with the SCAG cantrips. This is excessive punishment. I can sympathize with trying to narrow the gap between martials and casters, but gimping the idea of multiclassing for any full caster is far too much.

I mean is it excessive? Martial classes dont get there level 11 damage boost(extra attack 3, improved divine smite etc) without actually taking a single class to level 11. Why do caster need their cantrip boost without dedicating levels to a single class? They still get spellslot progression which is the bulk of their power anyways.

[Joe the Rat]

EB is an issue, but we're cool with angels, demons, squids, pixie kings, and whatever the hell's behind Hexbades all giving the knowledge of how to coat themselves in frost, rebuke their attackers with flame, cause painful bad luck, and open warps in space to a dark foreboding place full of icy darkness and acidic tentacles? Never mind the Invocations...

Eldritch Blast is literally a pure magic (Force) attack. Color it as you like. You should do the same with the rest of your spells.

Eldritch Blast is not necessary for a mechanically functional Warlock. It's an incredibly powerful and flexible Action once Invocations are brought on board. Three Invocations are pretty damn flexible in general, depending on how you play.


On War-Sorc flufflocking: As others have pointed out, they were pretty much "same origin, different mechanics." But we had a lot of those in the form of the various niche casting classes made in 3.5.

But for 5e:
Sorcery is Inherited (the assumed fluff) or Induced (See Storm Sorcerer and Wild Magic for examples). There could be a Single Responsible Being, or not. Lab accidents happen.

Warlocks are Secret Knowledge from A Higher (But Not Too High) Power. Some sort of Pact was made. This could just as easily be a Sorcerer's origin (Draconic suggests being directly imbued by a Dragon). Or a Bard's. Or Where your Wizard got the stuff they put in the spellbook (like in pre-D&D wizard lore). But I also like the Accidental Warlock - you didn't know you were making a pact. It can happen to Patrons (See Old One - though siphoning from Azathoth is a different kind of risk than siphoning from Belial), so why not. Maybe for the Archfey, Pacts are like STDs. The arcane classes are pretty blurry - it's mostly about what spell (and other) mechanics you want to use. Who's your daddy is pretty flexible.

[Composer99]

I mean, why does learning magic because of ancestry mean that you get these weird metamagic riders to your spells?

It's too bad the feature's called metamagic, which calls to mind 3.X era metamagic (which definitely had a wizard vibe to it, or at least at any rate was available to all casters).

If it's "spell shaping", or some synonymous term, and sorcerers get to do it because of their innate command of magic, that makes it easier to imagine it being a sorcerer schtick. At least it does to my mind. YMMV.

[Garfunion]

Personally eldritch blast should have become the domain of the sorcerer. Do to the sorcerer’s raw magic connection.

[Dr. Cliché]

I mean, why does learning magic because of ancestry mean that you get these weird metamagic riders to your spells?

Frankly, I wish it didn't because it's a garbage ability that nevertheless devours almost the entirety of the design-space for the Sorcerer, leaving barely anything left for subclasses or even known spells.

[Composer99]

EB is an issue, but we're cool with angels, demons, squids, pixie kings, and whatever the hell's behind Hexbades all giving the knowledge of how to coat themselves in frost, rebuke their attackers with flame, cause painful bad luck, and open warps in space to a dark foreboding place full of icy darkness and acidic tentacles? Never mind the Invocations...

:smallconfused: That's... not how (logical) implications work, which I presume you very well know.

[Warlush]

EB is an issue, but we're cool with angels, demons, squids, pixie kings, and whatever the hell's behind Hexbades all giving the knowledge of how to coat themselves in frost, rebuke their attackers with flame, cause painful bad luck, and open warps in space to a dark foreboding place full of icy darkness and acidic tentacles? Never mind the Invocations...

Eldritch Blast is literally a pure magic (Force) attack. Color it as you like. You should do the same with the rest of your spells.

Eldritch Blast is not necessary for a mechanically functional Warlock. It's an incredibly powerful and flexible Action once Invocations are brought on board. Three Invocations are pretty damn flexible in general, depending on how you play.


On War-Sorc flufflocking: As others have pointed out, they were pretty much "same origin, different mechanics." But we had a lot of those in the form of the various niche casting classes made in 3.5.

But for 5e:
Sorcery is Inherited (the assumed fluff) or Induced (See Storm Sorcerer and Wild Magic for examples). There could be a Single Responsible Being, or not. Lab accidents happen.

Warlocks are Secret Knowledge from A Higher (But Not Too High) Power. Some sort of Pact was made. This could just as easily be a Sorcerer's origin (Draconic suggests being directly imbued by a Dragon). Or a Bard's. Or Where your Wizard got the stuff they put in the spellbook (like in pre-D&D wizard lore). But I also like the Accidental Warlock - you didn't know you were making a pact. It can happen to Patrons (See Old One - though siphoning from Azathoth is a different kind of risk than siphoning from Belial), so why not. Maybe for the Archfey, Pacts are like STDs. The arcane classes are pretty blurry - it's mostly about what spell (and other) mechanics you want to use. Who's your daddy is pretty flexible.

Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup. Yup.

[Joe the Rat]

:smallconfused: That's... not how (logical) implications work, which I presume you very well know.

Going back to the original issue - why such a diverse range of spell-givers know this One Secret. What I listed were other warlock only-spells*, which can be learned from any Patron as well. Why are faeries telling you how to summon hellfire? Why is your Coatl benefactor showing you how to open rifts to the gibbering darkness between worlds? You address the flavor of it.

I simply refute the idea that All Warlocks use Eldritch Blast. While some are used more than others, these are options unique to the Warlock.


* Tieflings can have Hellish Rebuke as a racial ability. Feel free to remove that from the list.

[Evaar]

Eldritch Blast isn't a single ability. It's many different abilities described in a single mechanic.

It's kamehameha, Cyclops's eye beams, 1-4 spectral hummingbirds that streak towards your targets, a blast of pure abyssal entropy, lightning bolts that mysteriously do force damage instead of lightning damage but who cares, a beam of unnatural light that pierces through the sky from the depths of an evil star, or an array of mystical blades that project themselves following their master's will.

But all of those things do 1d10 force damage, require an attack against AC, and split/duplicate/bounce/chain at 5th, 11th, and 17th level.

My point being: This is an opportunity to customize your character's abilities and make them unique, not something that homogenizes warlock patrons.

[Composer99]

Going back to the original issue - why such a diverse range of spell-givers know this One Secret. What I listed were other warlock only-spells*, which can be learned from any Patron as well. Why are faeries telling you how to summon hellfire? Why is your Coatl benefactor showing you how to open rifts to the gibbering darkness between worlds? You address the flavor of it.

I simply refute the idea that All Warlocks use Eldritch Blast. While some are used more than others, these are options unique to the Warlock.


* Tieflings can have Hellish Rebuke as a racial ability. Feel free to remove that from the list.

Not really related to what I found objectionable.

If someone finds a game mechanic weird enough, irksome enough, or bad enough, in their view, to publicly remark upon it, it simply doesn't follow that they are "cool with" other, similar mechanics, or, even if they are, that there is anything illegitimate about that.

In any event, warlock patrons provide distinct expanded spell lists which arguably represent the kind of magic those patrons actually tend to bestow upon warlocks. So it's not even the case that the homogeneity of the warlock spell list (for 1st to 5th level spells at any rate) is the same kind of issue as the alleged ubiquity of eldritch blast in terms of how people may find it weird, ill-fitting, etc. as a game mechanic. (Few of the patrons, it must be said, provide additional cantrips, or support for using cantrips other than eldritch blast.)

You have expressed your disagreement with the premise of the original post, on terms that directly address that premise. Per you, these are not issues or problems, merely justifications for good roleplay. Well and good. There's no call to put words in people's mouths (as it were) while you're at it.

[Warlush]

Turkish: You're a sensitive boy aren't ya Tommy?

[D.U.P.A.]

Does the origin of Eldritch blast have to do that it can hit only creatures? Or it was a mistake, however force damage seems to be more about targeting creatures than objects and stuff.

[BigRedJedi]

Where does Eldritch Blast come from?

Eldritch Taco Tuesday, obviously. :cool:



On topic, I have played with a GOOlock that flavored it as an ephemeral tentacle that crossed the intervening distance to the target and slapped the snot out of it... A Celestial warlock who was a 'not'-Viking princess and flavored it as the spirits of her ancestors charging from her outstretched hand... And a Feylock who sent Vicious Attack Butterflies to smother her enemies.

I could see a Hexblade flavoring it as drawing an Eldritch Bow to fire an Eldritch Bolt at his Eldritch Enemies... Eldritchly... Urge to Edgelord intensifies!!!

[Arkhios]

Perhaps a tad unrelated, but I read someone mention the damage type would change based on Patron and it got me to thinking...

EB is force by default (but affects creatures only) which is hands down the strongest damage type in terms of resistance or immunity (those do exist but they're extremely few).

So, I wouldn't drop Force entirely. Instead, I was wondering if something like this would work:

With each hit from EB you deal 1d6 (or 1d4) force and 1d4 (or 1d6) Patron-dependant-type. Agonizing Blast adds to Force damage, which is the base damage to all.
This way the maximum damage total would remain the same as with a 1d10, albeit with a slightly bigger average, with a small chance to get at least something through if the creature happens to have resistance to either type. As a bonus you would have a flavorful side effect tied to your patron. Also, if you were to take EB with Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, or Aberrant Dragonmark, you'd deal only the force damage if you don't have a Patron from having levels in Warlock.

[Yakk]

The core of a Warlock pact, what makes a Warlock a Warlock and not a Cleric, is how the Pact works.

It is a tap on your soul.

Your soul is being tapped by this being as one of many sources of magical energy.

A side effect of this tap is that there can be a leak. EB is soul-energy being turned into a raw blast of damage.

[KorvinStarmast]

I opened up this thread expecting answers like "the palms", or "finger-guns", or "EYEBEAMS", or even "when you're half-Bard Warlock it can totally come from a savage pelvic thrust".

Force damage is not a real-world damage type, so you're allowed some leeway in imagination. Per the Players Handbook
Force. Force is pure magical energy focused into a damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are spells, including magic missile and spiritual weapon. Psychic damage isn't "real world either" - not sure I'm seeing where you are going with this.
As to the savage pelvic thrust, that's the Time Warp, not Eldritch Blast. :smallbiggrin:
For the OP:

The exclusivity of Eldritch Blast always struck me as kind of strange. -snip-
So to sum up, we have a spell that is either unknown, forbidden, or unreplicable in conventional mortal magic circles, Is seemingly known by all patrons and yet unused by them, which leaves us with the Warlocks themselves as the only proper users of Eldritch Blast. Does this seem weird to anyone else or is it just me? Not at all weird, any more so than a druid turning into an animal.
The Pact is what opens the gateway to this form of magical attack.
See also "The Oath" as the source of a Paladin's powers.

[Nifft]

Per the Players Handbook Psychic damage isn't "real world either" - not sure I'm seeing where you are going with this.
Oh, that's easy to clear up.

This is where I was going with that:

Maybe it's literally just force of will, and your patron is shooting force of will damage out of your finger-guns when you chant the secret phrase meaning "please o great one, be angry in this direction where I'm pointing right now". When your patron is live and in person, it doesn't need to send waves of angry force at people, it can just walk over and stab them in the face directly, which (as we all know) is much more satisfying.

[Warlush]

I opened up this thread expecting answers like "the palms", or "finger-guns", or "EYEBEAMS", or even "when you're half-Bard Warlock it can totally come from a savage pelvic thrust".

Yeah my first thought was "my imagination,right?". I mean, the whole game is make believe right?

[Ignis6669]

I'm a little late to the party, but here are my 2cp.

I see the pact as a sort of contract. One that's undertaken by the character and their Patron. Now, I'm in Texas. And if you rent an apartment in Texas, almost EVERYONE bases their lease on the standard "Texas Apartment Association" lease. Right now, you're asking yourself "Ignis6669, where are you going with this?". Hang on, I have a point. Because almost everyone uses the same general lease, the basics (or boilerplate) all generally look the same. So you have some basic conditions that are in everyone's lease, regardless of where they are moving to.

That's how I see Eldritch blast working. It's part of the "boilerplate" of the pact. Something that has just been rolled over as part of the basic pact functions, regardless of who the Patron is. Now, the exact way that it's expressed I think can change, just like your rent due and amenities can change. But the core is there. Which leads us to the people who have given great ideas about how they're reskinned their Eldritch Blast to make it appropriate for their Patron.

Now, if your next question is "Okay, but why is that in the basics?", I would guess that the answer would depend on your world. I would rule, in my own world, that as Patrons sought out good contracts (You want the Warlocks with the best potential, right?), they had to incentivize. And when one Patron gives a certain kind of power that others may like, it leads to a bit of an Arms race to give that power to their own Warlocks. This can also explain peoples question of "Why would a Fae pact give hellfire effects?". The patron had to keep up with the moving times and the effects that people desired most!

[Chronic]

Act-ually (pendantic nerd voice) they were descendants of people who had made pacts with fiends. So it still derived from a pact, just also from ancestry,

In 5e that certainly could still be a sorcerer thing. Apparently. But the line between sorcerer and warlock is a grab-bag mashup in 5e anyway.

They really should have been one class. Or rather, the Sorcerer class has always struck me as unnecessary.

Yeah, that your opinion. Sorcerer is both powerful and flavorful in 5e, I like the class like it is thank you.

[Tanarii]

Yeah, that your opinion. Sorcerer is both powerful and flavorful in 5e, I like the class like it is thank you.
We need a new text color for "totally an opinion and I don't really expect anyone to agree with me on it". :smallamused:

[Nifft]

Yeah my first thought was "my imagination,right?". I mean, the whole game is make believe right?
Heh, indeed. The source of all spellcasting effects.


We need a new text color for "totally an opinion and I don't really expect anyone to agree with me on it". :smallamused:
I've seen someone with a sig containing words like that (and a color -- maybe purple?)

I just prefix stuff like that with "IMHO".

[Chronic]

I'm just tired of people complaining about the sorcerer while they either haven't played it or simply badly played it and complaining like "this sucks it should not exist", while every sorcerer in my group of players must be monitored closely and asked to not break the game.

[Tanarii]

I'm just tired of people complaining about the sorcerer while they either haven't played it or simply badly played it and complaining like "this sucks it should not exist", while every sorcerer in my group of players must be monitored closely and asked to not break the game.
Oh yeah, they're powerful enough and definitely a player favorite.

For me it's both a thematic and class features dislike. Since all casters are now spontaneous, they don't have enough to differentiate them on the arcane scale. For class features, probably have been happier if they'd been full short rest casters instead of full spellcasting feature casters. And warlocks had been spell slot less at will / invocation "casters". OTOH being practical for a sec instead of personal tastes, the way it is things are probably better.

[RSP]

I'm just tired of people complaining about the sorcerer while they either haven't played it or simply badly played it and complaining like "this sucks it should not exist", while every sorcerer in my group of players must be monitored closely and asked to not break the game.

How so? What can a Sorc do, other than nova, that you’re concerned about?

[Morty]

As people have explained, it's simply because the original Warlock class in 3.5 had an ability called Eldritch Blast. That's the whole reason. Back then, having a magical blast you can use whenever you want was fairly unique. The 4E warlock, for all that people complain about its breaking tradition and whatnot, also has an Eldritch Blast at-will ability. I think it's actually mandatory for every warlock, though it's been a while. This would at least remove the illusion of choice. Either way never underestimate the force of "that's how things are done" in D&D.

[Arkhios]

Even in 4e Eldritch Blast was a class feature, which said All Warlocks have it (even though the mechanics made it equivalent of an At-Will Power).

Published during 4th edition's death throes (not very long before D&D Next Playtests began), The Essentials gave the Hexblade sub-class for Warlocks, introducing an alternative for Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Strike (at-will weapon attack power that could be used as a basic attack, using your charisma for relevant rolls); although it was established as a hexblade alternative, from that point forward, all warlocks could choose to have either Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike, hexblade or not. FWIW, none other than Mike Mearls was largely responsible for the Essentials. Make of that what you will. :smallamused:

[Tanarii]

Published during 4th edition's death throes (not very long before D&D Next Playtests began), The Essentials gave the Hexblade sub-class for Warlocks, introducing an alternative for Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Strike (at-will weapon attack power that could be used as a basic attack, using your charisma for relevant rolls); although it was established as a hexblade alternative, from that point forward, all warlocks could choose to have either Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike, hexblade or not. FWIW, none other than Mike Mearls was largely responsible for the Essentials. Make of that what you will. :smallamused:
Nothing to make of it. He was very open he was using Essentials as a test bed for 5e. Which earned him some rancor.

And I played a warlock with eldritch strike. It was nicely OP, and of course beloved by optimizers. Pretty much the same as the current Hexblade.

[Nifft]

Nothing to make of it. He was very open he was using Essentials as a test bed for 5e. Which earned him some rancor.

And I played a warlock with eldritch strike. It was nicely OP, and of course beloved by optimizers. Pretty much the same as the current Hexblade.

That's unfortunate.

The expected benefits of using a late-edition change to test the next-edition mechanics ought to include better mechanical balance.

[Tanarii]

That's unfortunate.

The expected benefits of using a late-edition change to test the next-edition mechanics ought to include better mechanical balance.
The primary design goal was to address removing Powers from Martials, and making them go back to "I attack". But, yknow, trying to find a way to make that interesting somehow.

Or the way they put it, make classes feel like they used to. Which meant adjusting warlocks too, since they couldn't have a full suite of 'real' spell progression.

[Millstone85]

Published during 4th edition's death throes (not very long before D&D Next Playtests began), The Essentials gave the Hexblade sub-class for Warlocks, introducing an alternative for Eldritch Blast: Eldritch Strike (at-will weapon attack power that could be used as a basic attack, using your charisma for relevant rolls); although it was established as a hexblade alternative, from that point forward, all warlocks could choose to have either Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike, hexblade or not. FWIW, none other than Mike Mearls was largely responsible for the Essentials. Make of that what you will. :smallamused:
Nothing to make of it. He was very open he was using Essentials as a test bed for 5e. Which earned him some rancor.

And I played a warlock with eldritch strike. It was nicely OP, and of course beloved by optimizers. Pretty much the same as the current Hexblade.I am reading through D&D Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, which describes hexblades of the fey and infernal pacts, and Dragon#393, which describes hexblades of the star pact.

And I don't see this eldritch strike you speak of?

If I understand correctly, hexblades get an at-will ranged attack power called eldritch bolt, which works exactly the same as eldritch blast in the original 4e PHB. So they renamed it? Weird. Anyhow, hexblades also get the ability to summon a weapon as determined by their pact, and an at-will melee attack power to go with it:



Weapon
At-Will Melee


Fey Pact
blade of winter's mourning
ice skewer


Infernal Pact
blade of annihilation
soul eater


Star Pact
starshadow blade
resplendent blade


Now, these are warlock powers, so they could technically be selected by a non-hexblade warlock. However, each power comes with a requirement: "You must use this power with your [insert pact-weapon name here]". So it would be useless on anything but a hexblade.

Is there some other document I should be reading instead?

[Arkhios]

It appears my memory failed me.
Eldritch Strike was in fact in something called "PHB Heroes Miniatures".

With a very quick search I couldn't quite pinpoint when it was published, but for some reason I have a feeling it came sometime during same period as the essentials.

[Millstone85]

It appears my memory failed me.
Eldritch Strike was in fact in something called "PHB Heroes Miniatures".I was about to edit that in, since it is all Google could point me to.

In a way, this is even more disturbing. 4e had miniature-set-exclusive power cards? :smallconfused:

[Arkhios]

I was about to edit that in, since it is all Google could point me to.

In a way, this is even more disturbing. 4e had miniature-set-exclusive power cards? :smallconfused:

They tried everything to improve 4e's appeal :smallamused:

[Tanarii]

I am reading through D&D Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, which describes hexblades of the fey and infernal pacts, and Dragon#393, which describes hexblades of the star pact.

And I don't see this eldritch strike you speak of?


It appears my memory failed me.
Eldritch Strike was in fact in something called "PHB Heroes Miniatures".

With a very quick search I couldn't quite pinpoint when it was published, but for some reason I have a feeling it came sometime during same period as the essentials.


I was about to edit that in, since it is all Google could point me to.

In a way, this is even more disturbing. 4e had miniature-set-exclusive power cards? :smallconfused:
That doesn't sound right. I didn't have the minis, and I only rarely used the character builder. I'll have to look it up.

[Arkhios]

That doesn't sound right. I didn't have the minis, and I only rarely used the character builder. I'll have to look it up.

I guess it may have been in some Dragon Magazine as well. In addition to the PHB Heroes Miniatures (whatever format that was in)? *shrug*

I initially found out about it in the builder, and never really bothered to look up the actual source back then, mostly taking everything found in there for granted when building a character. Which I did. A lot more than I could've ever played. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

I guess it may have been in some Dragon Magazine as well. In addition to the PHB Heroes Miniatures (whatever format that was in)? *shrug*

I initially found out about it in the builder, and never really bothered to look up the actual source back then :smallbiggrin:
I played this character in an AL game, and I almost always used my own books as sources. I did make a few characters with the character builder, less than a handful. Possibly this was one.

It was a very well known power once it was released, commonly used by warlock optimizers. I probably found out about it that way, I knew some that were way out there.

[FabulousFizban]

devil farts

[Chronos]

Does that mean that we need a new Pact Boon for pumpernickel bread?

[Arkhios]

I played this character in an AL game, and I almost always used my own books as sources. I did make a few characters with the character builder, less than a handful. Possibly this was one.

It was a very well known power once it was released, commonly used by warlock optimizers. I probably found out about it that way, I knew some that were way out there.

To be fair, I didn't participate in 4th edition AL for two reasons, or actually three:
1) Comparing to the previous similar campaign, the RPGA's Living Greyhawk, I didn't like the new concept and format of the Living Forgotten Realms (which was a hot mess; frankly I think that even 5e AL follows in those same messy footprints).
2) Locally there really wasn't (still isn't) any support for AL. Pathfinder Society was (is) much more popular around here.
3) The 4th edition games I played in were homebrew campaigns, and pretty much everything that was in the Builder were considered fair game.

[Joe the Rat]

Does that mean that we need a new Pact Boon for pumpernickel bread?
Pact of the Loaf?

Some sort of daily food ritual that produces a goodberry-esqe baked good, which provides immediate benefit to the consumer, and/or allows the Warlock to target them with effects regardless of range for the next 8-12 hours?

Ties in nicely with lore about eating faerie food/underworld food...