Dealing with the MADness of a STR cleric [Archive]

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Greywander

2020-05-22, 03:07 AM

Recently I was looking at a dwarf Forge cleric build (great fit for a cleric of Moradin), you know, something simple and straightforward. Normally, I'd be more about a caster domain that gets Potent Spellcasting rather than Divine Strike, which in turn would mean that I could ignore STR. Not so here. A cleric is a spellcaster first, so boosting WIS is a priority, but weapon-based clerics will also want to get STR or DEX up to 20 as well in order to get the most out of their class. However, that's going to eat up at least four ASIs, maybe all five, and there's a number of feats I'd like to pick up on such a build. Off the top of my head, Resilient (CON), Warcaster, Heavy Armor Master, Shield Master, Magic Initiate (for Booming Blade)... oh, that's all five right there.

The thing is, it's possible for a weapon-based cleric to be quite strong, stronger than a caster cleric, but you have to invest into the things you need to do it. You really need to either boost your STR/DEX to 20 or get Shillelagh, and get Booming Blade (or Green-Flame Blade, but I like BB better). If you can manage to pull this off, you'll eventually deal 6d8 + 5 damage with your attacks, or 32 average, which is pretty respectable. Plus there's the control aspect of Booming Blade. If the enemy decides to move and trigger the extra damage, you actually deal 10d8 + 5 damage, or 50 average. For comparison, an Agonizing Eldritch Blast deals 4d10 + 20 damage, or 42 average at 17th+ level.

There are a number of cleric builds that can pull this off without too much trouble. Arcana clerics can take Booming Blade as one of their bonus cantrips, but they're actually not a weapon-based cleric. However, they would get to add their bonus from Potent Spellcasting to it. Nature clerics can pick up Shillelagh as one of their bonus cantrips. High elves get a free wizard cantrip, which can be Booming Blade. Variant Humans can get Magic Initiate, which can be used to grab either (but not both). Sadly, a dwarf Forge cleric gets none of these, but the one advantage they do have is that they don't need STR for heavy armor if they do get Shillelagh. For a generic cleric, we either need to use one of our ASIs to get Magic Initiate, or dip into another class. Now, you can't take Magic Initiate twice, and there are no spell lists that get both Shillelagh and Booming Blade, however, Rising from the Last War introduced the Aberrant Dragonmark feat, which is similar to Magic Initiate. By taking those two feats, our cleric could grab both cantrips, but it might make more sense to dip instead of burning limited feats.

Assuming we're taking a race with a WIS bump (hill dwarf), we'll only need two ASIs to max WIS out. However, unless we also get a STR bump, we would need three ASIs to max STR out. A race (such as mountain dwarf) that gets a +2 to either STR or WIS could start with a 17 in that stat and a 15 in the other, and then even them out with an ASI, requiring only four ASIs to max both out. Alternatively, you could take a half-feat that gives a bump to either STR or WIS, and only need four more ASIs to max both out. Basically, what I'm saying is that it's going to take two/two and a half/three ASIs to max out STR, while it would take only one to pick up Shillelagh. Maxing out STR has the benefit of being "always on", and can be used for other things as well (e.g. grappling, climbing, etc.). Shillelagh shouldn't be a problem if you're the one initiating combat, but if you get caught by surprise it can really mess with your action economy during those first couple rounds.

Now, we can actually get Shillelagh without even spending an ASI, by instead dipping one level into druid. If we dip druid, we get two cantrips, can prepare (up to) six 1st level druid spells (including some good ones, like Absorb Elements), and we maintain full caster progression. Meeting the 13 WIS requirement to multiclass shouldn't be a problem, and druid spells also run off of WIS, letting us use spells with saves and attack rolls equally as effectively as our cleric spells. The one caveat, which is especially worrisome for a Forge cleric, is the prohibition against wearing metal armor. However, I don't actually want to be a druid, I just want the mechanical abilities. So maybe I can barter with the DM to give up the Druidic language in exchange for being able to wear metal armor.

We can do the same to get Booming Blade, but this gets a bit trickier. All the classes that get Booming Blade have multiclass requirements that are dump stats for us. As a dwarf, I could use the stat points I would have spent on STR to boost one of those up, but it's not ideal. A generous DM might also waive the multiclass requirements (I know I would). Another thing to consider is that, if we've already dipped into druid, another dip will cost us an ASI later on, in addition to setting our cleric progression back another level. However, each of the classes we can dip into would get us some juicy goodies that we'd miss from Magic Initiate. Wizard gets us access to all the 1st level wizard spells (up to two at a time, unless we pump INT), and lets us ritual cast them without needing them prepared (unlike our cleric or druid spells). Sorcerer gets us four cantrips and a subclass; we get as many spells 1st level spells as wizard, but we can't change them out or ritual cast them. Warlock only gets two cantrips and delays our full caster progression, but gets us a short rest slot and a patron. For my Forge cleric, I think sorcerer works best, as I don't have to futz around with a spellbook and I want the Shield spell. Also, I want to grab both Control Flames and Mold Earth, because theming.

So, putting this all together, I would probably start as a hill dwarf Forge cleric. Some DMs give out a free feat at 1st level (I endorse this, it adds a lot more room to customize your 1st level character), in which case I'd pick up Heavy Armor Master to even out my STR from 13 to 14. If there is no free feat, I might want to dip immediately into druid for Shillelagh. Otherwise, I can wait for either dip until after 5th level, as by then I should have an 18 in WIS and Booming Blade will actually add damage to the initial attack. Alternatively, I might want to use my first ASI for Warcaster. Regardless, it should be pretty straightforward, boosting my WIS to 20 and probably taking Resilient (CON) for my last ASI at 18th level. Probably go Divine Soul for sorcerer subclass.

I can refluff Shillelagh to using a club or staff as a haft, and conjuring up a sacred hammer head. No mechanical change, but fits with the Forge theme better. Although it does beg the question of why I can't just cast it on a regular hammer. For Booming Blade, I can have it create a ringing sound like a hammer on steel, and as the target moves away the ringing gets louder to the point of pain. They can either stand still, where the ringing is tolerable, or they can push through the ringing to move away, which would feel like a hammer striking their eardrums.

I'm debating if I really need Warcaster, but Shillelagh ends if I let go of the weapon, so I think the answer is yes.

Anyway, this has been my exploration of how to pick up both Shillelagh and Booming Blade on a cleric and still get at least two other feats. Maybe there are other ways of doing this that are better, maybe there are better feats to pick up.

MrStabby

2020-05-22, 05:59 AM

I think my preference would be to take the druid dip andif you get a level 1 feat, to use it for aberant dragonmark and pick up booming blade and shield that way.

Your heavy armour, which you can enhance, coupled with dwarvern constitution boost and the dragonmark bood AND the shield spell should mean that you can put off warcaster just a little bit. The advantage of concentration saves is not that useful if you don't make any.

The other parts of warcaster are still useful - no having to juggle weapons etc for components to spells is good, but actually you don't need to do this that often. I find that as a caster, you open with the spellcsting resources you want to use in a fight then usethings like attacks and cantrips or other resource-free options. Yes, sometimes you go back to casting levelled spells if the fight goes south - things like healing word to bring people back up or command to buy you some space, but your Spirit Guardians or Bless are probably up before you cast Shillelagh. Now these other spells - you cantrip will be booming blade so no need to swap there and command and healing word are both verbal only components. I think there is a tendancy to think "I want a shield and a weapon in hand in combat and I want to cast spells so I need warcaster" - breaking it down by which spells you want to cast when and what you must have in your hand at that time actually shows abit less of a benefit. I know I thought that way for a while before diving into which spells needed which components.

The final element of warcaster - spells on opportunity attacks - is great. I won't argue that if you put the feat off that you will miss this element. I am not trying to make the case that the feat is bad or that you shouldn't get it, but rather that for your particular build maximising wisdom first is probably better. It isn't like not having the feat will stop you making opportunity attacks and even without a spell they will still hurt. Also there will be a reasonable chance that anyone who is wanting to move away from you already has booming blade damage waiting to dissuade them. Given that two effects from the same spell dont stack you might havea fightwith your DM to get full damage from the two booming blades anyway.

As a final note on the feat, I would add that spirit guardians is a pretty good spell. You might cast it from time to time. It's impact on enemies movement speed is such that running away from you under such circumstances is already not advisable, or not very productive anyway. Just another slight diminuation in the feat's power.

LudicSavant

2020-05-22, 06:25 AM

diplomancer

2020-05-22, 07:01 AM

You are only going to get one attack anyway, and if that attack is at advantage having a lower str would not be too bad. Specially at higher levels, as long as you hit, the difference between 6d8+5 and 6d8+2 (or +3) is negligible. Shillelagh costs a bonus action, that can be used to cast Spiritual Weapon, and so, unless you can pre-cast it (not always possible), it's usually not worth it.

Start with 16 str and wis (or 15 str if hill dwarf). Get magic initiate at 4 (or 1 if V. Human) for booming blade and find familiar. The advantage from the familiar more than compensates for your non-maxed strength. Max Wis at 8 and 12, and get whatever 2 other feats you think best (HAM is not bad for the hill dwarf cleric).

For the whole Druid armor debate, yes, ask your DM. If I were the DM, I would allow a 1 level dip, but not a 2nd level (my interpretation of it is that the real druidic secrets that require abstaining from metal armor start with the Druidic circle powers). I still don't think the dip is worth it. If I were to dip and had the stats for it, I would dip wizard instead of getting the magic initiate feat; it delays your spellcasting level a bit, but it might be compensated by access to the Shield spell, being able to resummon your familiar on the same adventuring day if it dies, and all the other wizard rituals.

sithlordnergal

2020-05-22, 07:08 AM

For that Druid dip, ask your DM their stance on the Druid armor debate. It varies from DM to DM, but I have personally yet to meet a DM that cared about the whole "No metal armor" fluff. They've had my opinion, its pointless fluff that acts as a holdover from previous editions. It has no mechanical detriment, and can therefore be ignored.

Pex

2020-05-22, 01:30 PM

It's nice to have all those feats, but it is important to remember you're a cleric not a fighter. A warrior cleric is fine, but you're still not a fighter and shouldn't think you are. You have spells. Will you bonus attack shove with Shield Master or give yourself a second attack with bonus action Spiritual Weapon? Do you really need heavy armor master when you can bonus action Healing Word yourself in an emergency and still attack or surround yourself with Spirit Guardians hurting those who remain adjacent to attack you?

I agree you do want at least one of Resilient (Con) or War Caster. You're in melee. You will get hit. I believe in the Adventurer's Tax. You must have at least 14 CO regardless of class. Take advantage of dwarf +2 CO by only spending to get a 12 in it to bump it to 14. That gives you room for 14 ST and 15 WI. Hill dwarf gives you extra hit points and WI to 16. 14 ST isn't great. That's where Forge comes in. Give your weapon the +1, and now you're attacking with the equivalence of 16 ST. You have heavy armor, and Shield of Faith is there if you need the AC boost. Third level is Spiritual Weapon. Go to town.

Fourth level is a hard choice. ST to 16 or War Caster. Because of Forge Domain you can afford not pumping ST a bit so take War Caster. You need to maintain your Concentration and importantly not worry about your hands carrying a weapon and shield and casting. Some DMs aren't a stickler about that anyway without War Caster even with having a simple one free object manipulation, but it's nice to have the peace of mind and you no longer need to specify stowing or taking out your weapon if you've had to do that.

Eighth level self evaluate. Which have you been wishing more? Higher Strength for hit and damage or higher Wisdom for spell save DC? Increase by 2 which one you need. Twelfth level pump the other one. I'm thinking you're likely casting spells more often than making an attack even if it's a range damage Cantrip (Sacred Flame, Toll the Dead) so I'd say Wisdom first, but go with which ever one you need.

MagneticKitty

2020-05-22, 02:40 PM

After being a sad about the lack of bonus weapon proficiencies forge cleric had, I just went with cantrips (toll the dead) for damage when empty of spells. I tend to focus on casting and ignore melee on my clerics. It makes them too MAD. Plus their action is probably better used elsewhere.

Another option to enhance melee on the strength path is long tooth shifter, which gets a bonus action fang attack.

Anything thing you could consider is the druid cantrip Primal Savagery which I prefer over shilleleah almost every time.

Alternatively, if you dump str and dex and put the14+ you would have put into str into cha instead, you could dip Warlock for hex, hexblade's curse, cha to melee weapons, the best cantrip in the game, and great public speaking skills.

Alternatively, you could dip fighter 5..

To me it sounds like you might secretly want to play a paladin or sorcadin instead of cleric. Maybe a divine soul sorcerer/paladin hybrid. Big melee damage spikes, full cleric spell list.

clash

2020-05-22, 03:23 PM

Another route is having merely respectable wisdom and pumping strength. Bear in mind this really depends on what you want to get out of your spells. If your spells are going to be mostly limited to buffs, healing, and generally a support style with the odd save for half type of damaging spells thrown in then you dont need your wisdom maxed. This opens up a few more asi to do other things with.
To that point pretty much everything on the forge cleric domain list falls into the doesnt need wisdom maxed out bucket. So this might be the way to go if you intend to be more melee focused

LudicSavant

2020-05-22, 04:06 PM

If we assume a 50% chance to hit (5% to crit) with +3 Str, and 60% with +5 Wis, we get:

Toll the Dead 8: 7.8 / 12.8 Potent
Toll the Dead 11: 11.7 / 16.7 Potent
Toll the Dead 14: 11.7 / 16.7 Potent
Toll the Dead 17: 15.6 / 20.6 Potent

Attack 8: 3.975 / 6.45 Divine Strike / 8.925 BB+DS / 13.425 Rider
Attack 11: 3.975 / 6.45 Divine Strike / 11.4 BB+DS / 18.15 Rider
Attack 14: 3.975 / 8.925 Divine Strike / 13.875 BB+DS / 20.625 Rider
Attack 17: 3.975 / 8.925 Divine Strike / 16.35 BB+DS / 25.35 Rider

w/ Shillelagh
Attack 8: 5.925 / 8.85 Divine Strike / 11.775 BB+DS / 17.175 Rider
Attack 11: 5.925 / 8.85 Divine Strike / 14.7 BB+DS / 22.8 Rider
Attack 14: 5.925 / 11.775 Divine Strike / 17.625 BB+DS / 25.725 Rider
Attack 17: 5.925 / 11.775 Divine Strike / 20.55 BB+DS / 31.35 Rider

Hopefully I didn't make any typos in there.

Notes: The rider can't crit, so it's just .5 * 4.5 * tier (or .6 in the case of Shillelagh).

Of course, there's some question of how the saving throws will actually relate to AC in practice, this is only true for the case given.

Also, Potent Spellcasting will benefit Warcaster OAs, but Divine Strike will not (unlike Sneak Attack, it only boosts an attack made on your turn).

Cry Havoc

2020-05-22, 10:12 PM

Dump Dex and Int. You're in heavy armour. You dont need either.

Take either 2 (Smite) or 6 (Extra attack, Divine grace) levels of Paladin. You'll need a Charisma of 13 for this. Even with 6 levels, you still wind up with 9th level slots (presuming the other 14 levels are Cleric).

You'll have extra attack, smites, smite spells, and divine strike. You'll also have either Advantage 2/ short rest from Vengeance, or +Charisma to hit 2/ short rest from Devotion.

Damage and to hit will be fine.

You can function just fine with a Strength of around 14-16. There are a wealth of magic items that boost Strength in any event as a last resort. You're a Dwarven Forge cleric. If your DM allows creating magic items, make yourself one of them as a priority.

Using the standard array, and planning for Paladin M/C later on:

Hill dwarf:
S: 14
D: 8
C: 12 (14)
I: 10
W: 15 (16)
Ch: 13

HappyDaze

2020-05-22, 10:19 PM

This thread reminds me how happy I am that I've completely thrown SCAG out of my games. Booming blade being one of the most annoying pieces of garbage mechanics in it IMO.

LudicSavant

2020-05-22, 10:37 PM

This thread reminds me how happy I am that I've completely thrown SCAG out of my games. Booming blade being one of the most annoying pieces of garbage mechanics in it IMO.

Do people just use Toll the Dead then?

Greywander

2020-05-23, 03:40 AM

Booming Blade sources
- Aberrant Dragonmark (fits especially well with VHuman, and can let them take that and then Res(Con) to end up with an even 18 Con without going out of their way for it)
- SCAG variant Half-Elf (the high elf variant can get you BB)
- Arcana Cleric (they make great melee clerics)
- Dipping a Sorcerer, Warlock, or Wizard
- Magic Initiate

Shillelagh Sources
- Nature Cleric (also make good melee clerics)
- Wood Elf Magic (Wood Elves are a good Cleric race, and this feat is generally better than Magic Initiate)
- Druid dip (whether you wanna do this will probably depend on your DM's attitude in the Endless Druid Armor Debate)
- Magic Initiate
- If they're allowed, some of the Plane Shift races get it.

Other
Honorable mention goes to Strength-replacing magic items (obviously, you shouldn't count on this unless you have reason to expect you can in your campaign).

If we assume a 50% chance to hit (5% to crit) with +3 Str, and 60% with +5 Wis, we get:

Toll the Dead 8: 7.8 / 12.8 Potent
Toll the Dead 11: 11.7 / 16.7 Potent
Toll the Dead 14: 11.7 / 16.7 Potent
Toll the Dead 17: 15.6 / 20.6 Potent

Attack 8: 3.975 / 6.45 Divine Strike / 8.925 BB+DS / 13.425 Rider
Attack 11: 3.975 / 6.45 Divine Strike / 11.4 BB+DS / 18.15 Rider
Attack 14: 3.975 / 8.925 Divine Strike / 13.875 BB+DS / 20.625 Rider
Attack 17: 3.975 / 8.925 Divine Strike / 16.35 BB+DS / 25.35 Rider

w/ Shillelagh
Attack 8: 5.925 / 8.85 Divine Strike / 11.775 BB+DS / 17.175 Rider
Attack 11: 5.925 / 8.85 Divine Strike / 14.7 BB+DS / 22.8 Rider
Attack 14: 5.925 / 11.775 Divine Strike / 17.625 BB+DS / 25.725 Rider
Attack 17: 5.925 / 11.775 Divine Strike / 20.55 BB+DS / 31.35 Rider

Hopefully I didn't make any typos in there.

Notes: The rider can't crit, so it's just .5 * 4.5 * tier (or .6 in the case of Shillelagh).

Of course, there's some question of how the saving throws will actually relate to AC in practice, this is only true for the case given.

Also, Potent Spellcasting will benefit Warcaster OAs, but Divine Strike will not (unlike Sneak Attack, it only boosts an attack made on your turn).
Nice breakdown. It surprises me how close Toll the Dead is to a pimped out Divine Strike + Booming Blade. Then again, 4d12 is 26 average damage (31 with Potent Spellcasting), pretty close to the 32 I came up with earlier. That said, the rider from BB can have it's own value (in control, or in damage), though a lot of the time the enemy probably wasn't planning to move anyway.

What this is telling me, though, is that if I want to optimize, I'm better off begging my DM to let me sub Potent Spellcasting for Divine Strike. So many less hoops to jump through for comparable damage (at a distance, no less!). WIS is usually a pretty good save to target, too, and clerics get other cantrips for DEX or CON as well, giving you variety.

I think my preference would be to take the druid dip andif you get a level 1 feat, to use it for aberant dragonmark and pick up booming blade and shield that way.
This does mean having to choose between Control Flames and Mold Earth. Not that these were central to the build, I just felt they were thematic for the character. Aberrant Dragonmark does seem to be stronger than Magic Initiate, unless you really needed that extra cantrip.

Your heavy armour, which you can enhance, coupled with dwarvern constitution boost and the dragonmark bood AND the shield spell should mean that you can put off warcaster just a little bit. The advantage of concentration saves is not that useful if you don't make any.

The other parts of warcaster are still useful - no having to juggle weapons etc for components to spells is good, but actually you don't need to do this that often.
I think what I'm worried about is that Shillelagh ends if you let go of the weapon. If I need to sheathe or drop my weapon to cast a spell, then I'll have to cast Shillelagh again. If I have Spiritual Weapon or Heat Metal up, I'll want to use my bonus action on those.

Specially at higher levels, as long as you hit
Yeah, the damage difference is negligible, it is the increased chance to miss that I'm worried about. A +1 to your attack roll when you have a 50% chance to hit represents a 10% increase in the number of times you hit, and ergo a 10% increase to damage. A +2 would be a 20% difference, and so on. That's much more significant than the effect STR would have on the damage roll.

The advantage from the familiar more than compensates for your non-maxed strength.
Until it dies, but I suppose that's one less hit the party took. An owl would at least avoid OAs. I wonder what animal would fit a cleric of Moradin best?

It's nice to have all those feats, but it is important to remember you're a cleric not a fighter. A warrior cleric is fine, but you're still not a fighter and shouldn't think you are. You have spells.
This is why I would normally go with a domain that got Potent Spellcasting rather than Divine Strike. I really wish we got to choose, but alas. For the Forge cleric, I'm just using what's given to me, and that's Divine Strike. I could ignore it and use cantrips anyway, but then I'd feel like I was missing out on one of my class features. Like playing an armored monk.

Another route is having merely respectable wisdom and pumping strength. Bear in mind this really depends on what you want to get out of your spells. If your spells are going to be mostly limited to buffs, healing, and generally a support style with the odd save for half type of damaging spells thrown in then you dont need your wisdom maxed. This opens up a few more asi to do other things with.
To that point pretty much everything on the forge cleric domain list falls into the doesnt need wisdom maxed out bucket. So this might be the way to go if you intend to be more melee focused
It's always fun to see just how effective a caster can still be when they dump their casting stat, and clerics, being support casters, would probably work pretty well, even with low WIS. Still, Pex is right: clerics are spellcasters. And as I said to him, I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on my class features. Spellcasting is integral to the cleric, so not maxing my WIS would feel like I'm making myself a subpar caster. It's true, if you know how you intend to play the character, you can ignore some of your character options in favor of optimizing the ones you'll be using more, but I think I'm still better off prioritizing WIS over STR. I could always find some Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Belt of Giant Strength.

This thread reminds me how happy I am that I've completely thrown SCAG out of my games. Booming blade being one of the most annoying pieces of garbage mechanics in it IMO.
Whatchu got against the purple dragon knight? But seriously, I can certainly understand wishing BB didn't exist, but it does. I think there's design space for something like BB/GFB, but there's probably a reason it hasn't been reprinted in something like XGtE (which reprinted a lot of other material, including some from SCAG). Personally, I don't think it's too bad. The classes who get it generally don't want it, and the classes who want it, don't get it. This generally means a feat tax or level dip, which balances out how strong it is. It did make AT rogues a lot stronger at no cost, but YMMV on if that's good or bad.

I don't need Booming Blade, or Shillelagh, for that matter. Nor do I need to boost an ability score beyond 16. I can be perfectly adequate without any of that. But why be adequate when you can be amazing? Maybe it's not worth a level dip or feat just to get Shillelagh or Booming Blade, but I can get other things at the same time that might make the dip or feat worth it.

BloodSnake'sCha

2020-05-23, 03:48 AM

You can also get booming blade from spell sniper. Which have a pretty nice bonus.

Pex

2020-05-23, 04:52 AM

This is why I would normally go with a domain that got Potent Spellcasting rather than Divine Strike. I really wish we got to choose, but alas. For the Forge cleric, I'm just using what's given to me, and that's Divine Strike. I could ignore it and use cantrips anyway, but then I'd feel like I was missing out on one of my class features. Like playing an armored monk.

You may have missed the point. It's fine you want to go into melee and bash your enemies in the face. What you don't need are all those feats. It's good for the game overall that all the feats are juicy players want them all, but you have to pick and choose. You can't do everything and shouldn't be doing everything. Take what you really need. You need high ST and WI. The game math requires it. That means you can't have all the feats you want. You aren't alone if you don't like having to choose between ASIs and Feats, but that's what it is. What Feats do you really need to be a melee cleric? Something to help with Concentration. Anything else is a luxury you can't afford to sacrifice ST and WI. Alternatively, forget ST and get Shillelagh somehow. As a Dwarf Forge cleric that means Magic Initiate, but you can't get that until level 4. For levels 1-3 you're not so great in melee. If anything you can now appreciate what makes people want to play Variant Human. That bonus feat is a big deal.

MrStabby

2020-05-23, 05:26 AM

I think what I'm worried about is that Shillelagh ends if you let go of the weapon. If I need to sheathe or drop my weapon to cast a spell, then I'll have to cast Shillelagh again. If I have Spiritual Weapon or Heat Metal up, I'll want to use my bonus action on those.

My point is that I dont think these circumstances are as common as you think.

So how long is an average fight? Maybe 3 rounds with a fourth where the losers are fleeing or mopping up?

Turn 1 you are probably looking to cast a concentration spell and can then bring up shillelagh afterwards without issue.

Then you have turns 2 and 3. Basically, how often are you going to be needing to cast a non cantrip spell here? Sure, sometimes you need a boost for those tough fights - but this means that there is a pretty narrow window here where it is an issue. You need to be aiming to cast two non cantrip spells (for clarity the non-cantrip is because your cantrip is likely to be booming blade for which this isnt an issue), if it is one spell then you cast it before Shillelagh, if its 3 spells then your action is not going to be used to make an attack anyway so losing Shillelagh is no big deal.

Furthermore a cleric has some really good spells that are verbal only for those times where you need a bit more power; add on your channel divinity and it really shouldn't be an issue that often.

How many times in an adventuring day do you expect this to actually be an issue? What is the cost if it is? It isn't like you miss out on an action - you are probably just replacing your booming blade attack with a casting of toll the dead.

Lyracian

2020-05-23, 06:01 AM

So, putting this all together, I would probably start as a hill dwarf Forge cleric. Some DMs give out a free feat at 1st level (I endorse this, it adds a lot more room to customize your 1st level character), in which case I'd pick up Heavy Armor Master to even out my STR from 13 to 14. If there is no free feat, I might want to dip immediately into druid for Shillelagh. Otherwise, I can wait for either dip until after 5th level, as by then I should have an 18 in WIS and Booming Blade will actually add damage to the initial attack. Alternatively, I might want to use my first ASI for Warcaster. Regardless, it should be pretty straightforward, boosting my WIS to 20 and probably taking Resilient (CON) for my last ASI at 18th level. Probably go Divine Soul for sorcerer subclass.
The game I was in ended before we got all the way but my Dwarven Forge Cleric was going with +4 Wis; Resistance (Con); Warcaster as his first four feats. I am recreating him in a game where there is a magic shop so planning on 8 Str and getting the belt of Giant Strength. I was also taking the Sorcerer dip for Booming Blade, Shield and Absorb Elements spells. The Divine Soul boost to a Saving Throw is also nice.

Spellcasting is integral to the cleric, so not maxing my WIS would feel like I'm making myself a subpar caster. It's true, if you know how you intend to play the character, you can ignore some of your character options in favor of optimizing the ones you'll be using more, but I think I'm still better off prioritizing WIS over STR. I could always find some Gauntlets of Ogre Power or a Belt of Giant Strength.
The other is a magic weapon. Forge Cleric get 'Blessing of the Forge' as their level 1 ability which means you can always have a +1 making it the same as Strength 18

If we assume a 50% chance to hit (5% to crit) with +3 Str, and 60% with +5 Wis, we get:
Of course, there's some question of how the saving throws will actually relate to AC in practice, this is only true for the case given.

Thank you for the numbers. I had done some calculation against actual monsters. While many do have slightly weaker Wisdom there are others, example Owlbears and Adult Red Dragons, where a 16 Strength is as effective as 20 Wisdom while against Horned Devil and Wraiths melee weapons are better. 10% seems a reasonable number to use as mid point when you are looking to get an average. As mentioned above 'Blessing of the Forge' does give a slight boost.

if I want to optimize, I'm better off begging my DM to let me sub Potent Spellcasting for Divine Strike. So many less hoops to jump through for comparable damage (at a distance, no less!). WIS is usually a pretty good save to target, too, and clerics get other cantrips for DEX or CON as well, giving you variety.
If your DM is open to options there is Blessed Strikes as the Unearth Arcana replacement which adds to melee attack or spells.
https://media.wizards.com/2019/dnd/downloads/UA-ClassFeatures.pdf

This thread reminds me how happy I am that I've completely thrown SCAG out of my games. Booming blade being one of the most annoying pieces of garbage mechanics in it IMO.
I find it amusing seeing the number of times these discussions get sidetracked into debating if Booming Blade is well balanced or not. Personally I also do not allow the blade cantrips in games I run but if I am playing in a game that does then I will always be looking to pick them up once we are into Tier 2.

Do people just use Toll the Dead then?
Is that your default choice if you cannot get blade cantrips? Is that for the D12 damage or the fact it is a Wisdom save?

For that Druid dip, ask your DM their stance on the Druid armor debate. It varies from DM to DM, but I have personally yet to meet a DM that cared about the whole "No metal armor" fluff. They've had my opinion, its pointless fluff that acts as a holdover from previous editions. It has no mechanical detriment, and can therefore be ignored.
I impose a no spellcasting or wild shape as the penalty for Druids who try and wear metal armour. Not that any of my players (who are druids) have wanted to wear metal armour anyway.

LudicSavant

2020-05-23, 06:33 AM

Is that your default choice if you cannot get blade cantrips?

Yes.

Is that for the D12 damage or the fact it is a Wisdom save?

Both, I guess? It's as good or better than weapon attacks for Clerics in many situations.

Greywander's takeaway is pretty similar to mine:

Nice breakdown. It surprises me how close Toll the Dead is to a pimped out Divine Strike + Booming Blade. Then again, 4d12 is 26 average damage (31 with Potent Spellcasting), pretty close to the 32 I came up with earlier. That said, the rider from BB can have it's own value (in control, or in damage), though a lot of the time the enemy probably wasn't planning to move anyway.

What this is telling me, though, is that if I want to optimize, I'm better off begging my DM to let me sub Potent Spellcasting for Divine Strike. So many less hoops to jump through for comparable damage (at a distance, no less!). WIS is usually a pretty good save to target, too, and clerics get other cantrips for DEX or CON as well, giving you variety.

HappyDaze

2020-05-23, 07:44 AM

But seriously, I can certainly understand wishing BB didn't exist, but it does.

Not in my games, and that's all that matters to me. Other gamers can make all the bad decisions they like and add in terrible crap to their hearts' content. I literally threw away my copy of SCAG because it was pure garbage.

HappyDaze

2020-05-23, 07:49 AM

Do people just use Toll the Dead then?

In my party, one chacacter does. It's a cleric that otherwise would have used searing light. Both spells are comparable and both benefit from the same things in building the character. Neither is as badly made as booming blade which for several builds (primarily Cleric, Rogue, and Warlock) is a "must-have, big-something-for-almost-nothing power-up" in a way that thankfully hasn't been repeated.

Lyracian

2020-05-23, 09:35 AM

Yes.
Both, I guess? It's as good or better than weapon attacks for Clerics in many situations.
Divine Smite and Cantrip progression gives the Forge Cleric a bit of an odd damage swing. Levels 1-4, 8-10 and 14-16 you want to use your Warhammer. Where as without a Strength boost, better magic weapon or BB you want to use Cantrips at other levels.

LudicSavant

2020-05-23, 10:01 AM

Divine Smite and Cantrip progression gives the Forge Cleric a bit of an odd damage swing. Levels 1-4, 8-10 and 14-16 you want to use your Warhammer. Where as without a Strength boost, better magic weapon or BB you want to use Cantrips at other levels.

When I played a Forge Cleric, I preferred to use the AC boost, or give the +1 to hit to someone with multiple attacks.

MaxWilson

2020-05-23, 12:50 PM

I don't get why, if you're already using Booming Blade for extra damage, you'd care enough about the minor damage boost from Str to spend ASIs on it. There's really not much difference in damage output between +9 to hit and +11 to hit, especially if you're planning on using Wis-based spells like Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians to do the bulk of your damage. Yes, you'll end 1:1 combats about 10-20% faster, but so what? Unless you're planning on fighting AC 25 creatures like the Tarrasque every day, you'll barely notice the difference.

Plus, you're a dwarf, so you're already as slow as you're going to get. Might as well leave Str low (you haven't got Extra Attack so you're not good at Athletics anyway) and pump Dex for the initiative bonus, and use Dex (rapier) for your Booming Blade attack stat.

Yes, I realize there might be RP reasons to go for a strong dwarf instead of a nimble plate-armored rapier-wielding dwarf :) so feel free to go Str anyway if you want to--for me however that's more of an argument to switch races to High Elf so you can keep Dex in-character, get Booming Blade as a free cantrip (saving you an ASI), and wind up with Resilient (CON), Warcaster, Heavy Armor Master, Magic Initiate (Druid: Shillelagh), and more one ASI (you originally said Shield Master but it doesn't go well on clerics because of bonus action clog). Could switch out Heavy Armor Master for Mobile or Mounted Combatant if you care about mobility or if half-plate fits your ideal of the elven warrior better.

diplomancer

2020-05-23, 02:41 PM

Lyracian

2020-05-23, 02:47 PM

Plus, you're a dwarf, so you're already as slow as you're going to get. Might as well leave Str low (you haven't got Extra Attack so you're not good at Athletics anyway) and pump Dex for the initiative bonus, and use Dex (rapier) for your Booming Blade attack stat.
The question would be where do you get Rapier proficiency from?

yes, I realize there might be RP reasons to go for a strong dwarf instead of a nimble plate-armored rapier-wielding dwarf :) so feel free to go Str anyway if you want to--for me however that's more of an argument to switch races to High Elf so you can keep Dex in-character, get Booming Blade as a free cantrip (saving you an ASI), and wind up with Resilient (CON), Warcaster, Heavy Armor Master, Magic Initiate (Druid: Shillelagh)
High Elf and Hill Dwarf both suffer from not being able to start with Str/Dex and Wis at 16 with point buy. Dwarf comes with Warhammer proficiency and there is a lot of strength boosting items in published adventures making it easy (again depending on your game) to get to 18 rather than pumping dex and dipping for Rapier. That said a single level of fighter for Defense style is a nice bonus on a Forge Cleric looking to max AC and would get you all the weapon use you need. You could push all the way to Level 3 for Eldritch Knight to get Shield and Booming Blade and still get level 9 spells.

When I played a Forge Cleric, I preferred to use the AC boost, or give the +1 to hit to someone with multiple attacks.
Now we are starting to look at if we prefer defense or offense and tactics that will depend on who is in the rest of the party. There is also the question of game format such how easy it is to get magic items, which will effect if you have other party members who need a magic weapon or if you are in an AL-style game where you have a different party each week.

MaxWilson

2020-05-23, 06:12 PM

Dwarven forge clerics (or high elves for that matter) don't have rapier proficiency, though; they're stuck with daggers if they go the dex route. I think moderate str, war hammer, and the familiar is the way to go here, either with the MI feat or the wizard dip. Standard array works well for the wizard dip, Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12(+2), Int 13, Wis 15 (+1), Cha 8.

Oh, good catch.

High elf clerics can use shortswords though.

Lyracian

2020-05-24, 04:01 PM

Oh, good catch.High elf clerics can use shortswords though.
That does drop your damage dice size down though; pushing the edge for Using cantrip damage over weapon damage.

MaxWilson

2020-05-25, 08:18 AM

That does drop your damage dice size down though; pushing the edge for Using cantrip damage over weapon damage.

Granted, but that your damage is 10-20% lower than Str 20 is already a given. Dropping one more point of damage from lower die size will make it 11-22% lower (guesstimate) but again, do you care enough to spend two ASIs? (Also you'll gain some effective damage through higher initiative, which I haven't accounted for.)

As a cleric I'd much rather have Defensive Duelist to protect my concentration (Spirit Guardians, Holy Weapon, Conjure Celestial, Holy Aura) than maxed Str damage. Not sure how I'd spend the other ASI.