What a Seventh Level character can do

[SpyOne]

Many years ago, on the forums at the Wizards' site, there was a thread that started a criticism of a class in one of their books. It described an ability that class got at seventh level as "not realistic".
Someone replied that seventh level characters are powerful enough that "not realistic" isn't a valid complaint anymore.

And then the thread became a list of things that optimized builds, and even maybe not so optimized builds, can do at seventh level that are clearly superhuman.

I found that list both entertaining and useful. It helps one understand just how cinematic those characters can be. I had it saved with a copy of Calibrating Your Expectations and a Wizards editorial on why normal humans top out around 5th level.
That was at least two computers ago.

So, I am hoping folks here would enjoy contributing to such a list.

To be clear, this isn't about "this obscure prestige class with this unbalanced item from an adventure can do this gamebreaking thing". It is about "a Bard who spent as many ranks in Disguise as he could and has the stat-boosting magic items you'd expect him to has a better than 50% chance to convince a first level fighter that he is her husband."
Or that a Ranger is so good at tracking that even with the negative modifiers for tracking a diminutive creature like a frog, for track-concealing weather like recent rain, for track-resistant terrain like smooth stone, and for moving at his full movement, his bonuses balance them.

[Saintheart]

This is a game where magic literally exists and people think it's unrealistic from seventh level as opposed to first?

Less facetiously, are we including or excluding magic options here, given Guidance of the Avatar basically breaks the skill system from around level 3?

[Gruftzwerg]

IIRC many skillcheck DCs are a good measurement for this.
e.g. You could compare a 3.5 characters "long jump" (max ranks, max ability modifier and maybe gear for a character of that lvl) or "high jump" with actual world records.

this a good indicator for when you start leaving the real world power lvls.

[AntiAuthority]

If I'm understanding the intent well, I'll give some examples, ranging from Level 7 and down. As a side note, one of the Pathfinder 1E designers mentioned something similar about Level 6 or so being beyond what's achievable in the real world... Anyway, not the best person with calculating percentages, so no hard numbers here.

At Level 5, a Shield Champion is basically Captain America... And easily surpasses Captain America in being able to hurl a shield and have it return. Cap throws a specially made shield it bounces around and comes back to him. The Shield Champion can take any regular old shield and throw it around, having it return to their hand and potentially bouncing off of things (and other people) without harming it unless the Shield Champion chooses to. No Super Soldier Serum or specially made alloy needed, just pure skill!

A character with Ricochet Toss (Level 6 feat) is arguably more impressive than the Shield Champion, as they can essentially throw any appropriate ranged weapon and have it returned... With the Throw Anything feat, they can throw a chair or sack of potatoes at someone and have it bounce back into their hands through angling it during combat.

With Finesse Shot (Level 7 feat) you can fire a gun... Or bow and arrow and essentially use them to activate/turn on things from a distance or open/close small targets if you hit.

With a high enough Linguistics skill, your character has a good chance of spotting forgeries with messages. Technically, Tolkien was pretty much a low level (definitely below 6) Expert with a ton of linguistics, so a PC with this many ranks should be capable of creating their own languages like Tolkien did, but there are no rules for this.

They should automatically succeed (or rolling so incredibly low and still succeeding) on being able to determine if someone is under a Dominate Person spell with a passive Sense Motive, or discerning if they're under an enchant if they roll fairly decently.

[hamishspence]

You do have to minmax a bit - but it's possible for a human with no supernatural powers, to reach world-record lifts, around 4th level (Str 18 rolled, Prodigy template from DMG2, Human Paragon class from Unearthed Arcana, and +1 from levelling up), brings them to Str 23 : able to lift up to 600 lb overhead. For comparison, the world record clean and jerk is 582 pounds or so.

The Prodigy template, in addition to +2 to a stat, provides a separate +4 bonus on checks and skill checks related to that stat - so it's a good way to get a low Hit Dice character who is as good as possible at some skill, without magic.

It does have a +2 LA adjustment though - so while the character will have, say, 5 Hit dice, they will be considered 7th level for party balance and XP-earning purposes. Are we talking about only 7th level characters, or are 7HD characters allowed?

A Prodigy with 23 or 22 to a stat, will have a +10 bonus on all relevant checks - so can take 10 on DC20 checks and still pass them, or take 20 on DC30 checks that they're allowed to take 20 on, and pass them.

[Ruethgar]

You forgot the Wilderness Dweller template LA+0 for a +2 more Str.

[Kurald Galain]

a Wizards editorial on why normal humans top out around 5th level.
They don't, though. WOTC has noted that olympic athletes are around level 6-7. World record holders may well be higher, and superheroes like Captain America are much higher.

Olympic archers are 7th-level rangers, based on their accuracy against a Fine, stationary target 230 feet away and some reasonable assumptions about feat choices.

Weightlifter Shane Hamman? Str 23, based on his snatch weight.

A 6th-level monk with a +5 movement speed feat can hit a world record for the marathon, which is 27,687 5-foot squares long.

[hamishspence]

You forgot the Wilderness Dweller template LA+0 for a +2 more Str.

That's Dragon Magazine though, rather than WOTC printed book - so might not be useable.

The Musclebound trait:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#musclebound

provides another small Str check booster.



A 6th-level monk with a +5 movement speed feat can hit a world record for the marathon, which is 27,687 5-foot squares long.

Monks start gaining supernatural powers at level 4 though. To qualify as "normal humans" character needs to have nothing more exotic than Extraordinary. Still, 3 levels of Monk, the Dash feat, and the Quick trait:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#quick

should do the job.

[AntiAuthority]

... Wizards editorial on why normal humans top out around 5th level.



They don't, though. WOTC has noted that olympic athletes are around level 6-7. World record holders may well be higher, and superheroes like Captain America are much higher.


I wasn't aware WOTC commented on the levels of IRL people, but I'd like to read these comments if either of you could provide a link or quote.

[Buufreak]

I wasn't aware WOTC commented on the levels of IRL people, but I'd like to read these comments if either of you could provide a link or quote.

Further, it's a bit self destructive to argue what level normal humans can reach, then mention the augmented human that is steve rogers.

But yes, it has been my long time understanding that the average human might hit 3, and exemplars of certain skills and abilities might reach 6.

[hamishspence]

A possible candidate for Str 24-25, in the "can lift at least 1400 pounds off the ground, and move (5 ft step, or nearest equivalent)" sense:


https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WorldsStrongestMan

Real Life


Hafþór Júlíus "Thor" Björnsson, the actor who plays Gregor "The Mountain That Rides" Clegane in the Game of Thrones series, holds the world record at keg tossing, a sport in which involves tossing a 15.5 gallon barrel (which weighs about 33 pounds) over a high bar set at various heights. As of November 2015, the record (breaking one he had set himself earlier that year) is 24 feet, 6 inches. He would also go on to win the 2018 World's Strongest Man competition, after making the podium on five other occasions. He also dramatically won the January 2015 "World's Strongest Viking" contest in Norway by carrying a 650kg (1,433 pound) 9.8m (32 foot) "monster log" on his shoulders and carrying it for 5 steps. This was based on the feat recorded in The Icelandic Sagas of Orm Storulfsson the Strong carrying the mast of a viking longship (said to be that same length and weight) for steps before breaking his back. Storulfsson's record had stood for a thousand years - Björnsson broke it (but notably didn't break his back).

I'd say high-end Str 24 or low-end Str 25 might be deserved here.

[Biggus]

I wasn't aware WOTC commented on the levels of IRL people, but I'd like to read these comments if either of you could provide a link or quote.

The one that says Olympic athletes are about level 7: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a

There was some debate a few months ago about the highest level a real-world human has attained: the answer was approximately "somewhere between 5 and 8, depending on which rules you use to make the comparison". https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?605543-How-High-would-your-Int-and-Wis-Scores-have-to-be-to-always-win-at-Chess&highlight=olympic+ranger

[hamishspence]

A 6th-level monk with a +5 movement speed feat can hit a world record for the marathon, which is 27,687 5-foot squares long.

That was back in 2006 though.

55 ft speed (110 ft Hustle) - 22 squares per round = 2 hours, 5 minutes, 54 seconds, to do 27,698 squares.

The actual record is 2 hours 1 minute 39 seconds.

Taking into account that real marathons are not in straight lines, but along roads, with bends (which might slow the speed by a few feet) and you could justify the "maximum hustle speed of a long-distance runner" as reaching 60 ft, if really pushing it.

1 hour, 55 minutes, 24 seconds, would be the time taken, and the distance would be 27696 squares.

[AntiAuthority]

The one that says Olympic athletes are about level 7: http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060120a

There was some debate a few months ago about the highest level a real-world human has attained: the answer was approximately "somewhere between 5 and 8, depending on which rules you use to make the comparison". https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?605543-How-High-would-your-Int-and-Wis-Scores-have-to-be-to-always-win-at-Chess&highlight=olympic+ranger

Thanks for the links!

And I'm on the side of 6 (give or take a level, not too big a deal) being the maximum myself, but interestingly, the WOTC article mentioned stationary targets, as opposed to moving ones that would be much more difficult to hit... That said, even if people don't agree with the exact number of where a character transcends what's possible in our reality, I think we can all agree nobody in real life is going to be breaking into the double digits.

Also, a former 3.PF designer says something similar to WOTC. (https://seankreynolds.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/ex-su-and-martial-characters/)

[Hawk12192]

It kinda depends on what systems are in use. I tend to use the spheres system these days, and they make low level characters much more powerful and versatile. In base pathfinder? There are a couple of op strategies I can think of that work on any level. It kinda depends on what is the basis of comparison.

[Sutr]

I like to use terminal velocity as my balance point for these discussions a 7 fighter with a 16 con is sitting on 64 hit points on average. Jumping of a the highest cliff does 20d6 or roughly 70 damage. So we are going to use 8th level, 72hp because it makes the point easier, a fighter 8 can jump off any cliff and the survival chance is above 50% if at full health.

[Biggus]

Thanks for the links!

And I'm on the side of 6 (give or take a level, not too big a deal) being the maximum myself, but interestingly, the WOTC article mentioned stationary targets, as opposed to moving ones that would be much more difficult to hit... That said, even if people don't agree with the exact number of where a character transcends what's possible in our reality, I think we can all agree nobody in real life is going to be breaking into the double digits.

Also, a former 3.PF designer says something similar to WOTC. (https://seankreynolds.wordpress.com/2014/06/04/ex-su-and-martial-characters/)


I like to use terminal velocity as my balance point for these discussions a 7 fighter with a 16 con is sitting on 64 hit points on average. Jumping of a the highest cliff does 20d6 or roughly 70 damage. So we are going to use 8th level, 72hp because it makes the point easier, a fighter 8 can jump off any cliff and the survival chance is above 50% if at full health.

Yeah, at about level 8-10 characters start to be able to do clearly superhuman things without magic. A 9th-level Monk with the right feats can easily beat many world running records for example.

If we're going to get into a detailed discussion of what level real-world humans can reach, we'd probably better start a new thread about it to avoid derailing this one.

[Gavinfoxx]

This article seems to be what you're asking for.

https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/587/roleplaying-games/dd-calibrating-your-expectations-2

[Kurald Galain]

This article seems to be what you're asking for.

Not particularly; it is poorly researched and contradicts several of the actual facts/rules in this thread so far.

[NigelWalmsley]

They don't, though. WOTC has noted that olympic athletes are around level 6-7. World record holders may well be higher, and superheroes like Captain America are much higher.

In what world is Captain America relevant to a conversation about "normal humans"?

[Kurald Galain]

In what world is Captain America relevant to a conversation about "normal humans"?

If you read the rest of the thread, you'll find a poster claiming that Cap Am is clearly level 5 or less. I agree with you that he's not normal, not relevant to the discussion, and substantially higher level than that.

[AntiAuthority]

They don't, though. WOTC has noted that olympic athletes are around level 6-7. World record holders may well be higher, and superheroes like Captain America are much higher.

Olympic archers are 7th-level rangers, based on their accuracy against a Fine, stationary target 230 feet away and some reasonable assumptions about feat choices.


I'm going to have to disagree with the Olympic athletes being Rangers or Level 7, and especially with Captain America being much higher. Olympic athletes aren't proficient in all martial weapons (usually just one weapon), light and heavy armors, usually focused on one particular skill (such as swimmers not being equally as skilled at climbing), lack access to things like animal companions/wilderness survival as part of their training and don't have spells... I think they'd be closer to Experts in all honesty, even if we leave out the knowledge of nature, having animal companions and having spells and remember they're usually only good with one martial weapon instead of all of them. Lacking magic, that connection with nature and being skilled trackers sort of disqualifies them from being Rangers though...


If you read the rest of the thread, you'll find a poster claiming that Cap Am is clearly level 5 or less. I agree with you that he's not normal, not relevant to the discussion, and substantially higher level than that.

My bad, probably should have clarified... But I also don't think anyone in the real world has access to PC classes. We'd all, from Alexander the Great to Einstein, just have NPC classes. A Level 5 PC is clearly superhuman, even compared to a Level 6 NPC. Sorry for the confusion.

[Kurald Galain]

A Level 5 PC is clearly superhuman, even compared to a Level 6 NPC. Sorry for the confusion.

As also mentioned above, according to WOTC, Olympic athletes have PC classes, and can be level 7. So no, level 5 isn't necessarily superhuman.

[AntiAuthority]

As also mentioned above, according to WOTC, Olympic athletes have PC classes, and can be level 7. So no, level 5 isn't necessarily superhuman.

Not sure if OP considers this conducive or detrimental to the thread, so until they say otherwise, I'll keep going with this... If not, let me know and I'll stop.

Anyway, that's not an argument, that's an Appeal to Authority. WOTC also said that D&D has no precedent for anime-esque stuff in it ... Yet the Monk class has been in the game since 1E and the 5E iteration of it is capable of emulating Naruto/Fist of the North Star with energy arms, spectral armors and killing people with a touch, but I guess none of that matters because WOTC said so (and this is ignoring that D&D characters pull off stuff you'd see in anime/mythologies (they're both pretty similar actually), but I guess that doesn't matter because WOTC said so). That'd be like arguing, "WOTC said Olympic athletes are Wizards" and by the same logic, they're right because... They're WOTC, no real reason other than they said so with no evidence beyond they said so, even if they're directly contradicting themselves. By the same logic, if WOTC says world renowned scientists are actually Fighters or if Olympic athletes are actually Wizards, it doesn't matter if the world renowned scientists have no idea how to use martial weapons and armors like Fighters get or if Olympic athletes have no idea how to cast spells, can create enchanted items or anything else a Wizard gets as class features, they must be these things because WOTC said so because WOTC is automatically right. Even then, I could just say a 3.PF designer said Level 6 was approximately the human max in our world, and that would be just as valid an argument and the only thing we've proven is "He said she said" without anything backing it up and blindly accepting something as truth because a figure of authority said so.

[Thunder999]

Olympic athletes clearly aren't rangers though, they have pretty much none of the class features.

[Biggus]

I'm going to have to disagree with the Olympic athletes being Rangers or Level 7, and especially with Captain America being much higher.

Have you read any Captain America comics? He's defeated creatures way above CR7 on numerous occasions.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

That was back in 2006 though.

55 ft speed (110 ft Hustle) - 22 squares per round = 2 hours, 5 minutes, 54 seconds, to do 27,698 squares.

The actual record is 2 hours 1 minute 39 seconds.

Taking into account that real marathons are not in straight lines, but along roads, with bends (which might slow the speed by a few feet) and you could justify the "maximum hustle speed of a long-distance runner" as reaching 60 ft, if really pushing it.

1 hour, 55 minutes, 24 seconds, would be the time taken, and the distance would be 27696 squares.Human Barbarian 1(40'), Dash feat(5'), Fleet of Foot feat(10'), Quick trait(10'). 65' move speed(13 squares). My math says a Marathon is 27687 squares. 27687/2/13=1065 rounds=106.5 minutes=1 hour, 37 minutes to run a marathon. A 1st level Barbarian can beat the world record for a marathon with enough time to watch an anime ep on his phone afterwards.

Grab a Flaw for Run and that same Barb can cover 325' in 6 seconds. The 100-meter dash is 328.4 ft, so our Barb's time is 6.6 seconds. Current world record is 9.6, so our Barb is roughly 2/3rds of the record time.*

*Barbarian 1(40') with Run and nothing else covers 33.33 ft/second, covering the 100m in 9.85 seconds. Reminder, the record is 9.58, and the 9.8 mark wasn't broken until the 2000s. Human Barbarian 1(40'), Run, Fleet of Foot feat(10'), Quick trait(10'), Musclebound Trait. 60' move speed. 18 Str, 4 Ranks, 8+16(move speed)+1(Musclebound)=Jump Check 25+roll*. World Record is just under 30', DC 30. He breaks the record on a 5, beats it by 50% on a 20. With the cheese I *'d below, he hits a 35' jump on a 1 and can set a new record of 54' after a relative handful of attempts.

High jump record is DC 32, so not much harder.

*Skill Focus adds another +3, Athletic adds +2, but those require Flaws. Rage also adds +2. A masterwork tool(do Nikes cost 50 gp?) adds 2.
I could do swim or climb, but why? These are no-magic builds, lvl 1, and probably focus less on their specific thing than actual athletes do. There is no level at which D&D capabilities at all reflect reality.

[AntiAuthority]

Have you read any Captain America comics? He's defeated creatures way above CR7 on numerous occasions.

I know a thing or two about him, but I'm not an expert or anything. That said, I think I can explain why he's beating things that are above CR 7 while still being around that level.

First, Cap's a comic book Peak Human, which is really closer to Low Level Super Human by our standards lol. I'm aware it's a comic book and this character has been around for almost 80 years and has shifted between writers and artists who interpret "peak human" differently, so there are plenty of (likely contradicting) interpretations of the character's abilities as well as 3.PF isn't going to be a perfect 1:1 fit for how I'm about to explain this. Ignoring any obvious outliers like, say, Batman kicking Spectre (but with Captain America, say, punching out Galactus or something) and going back to struggling against random mooks, I'm going by consistent (for lack of a better word) versions of Cap.

Second, Cap's beaten things higher than CR 7, sure... But how much of that is because he's a lot stronger than a Level 7 character and how much of it is because he has a body suit with different types of resistances and DR and a shield capable of tanking blows from 100+ tonners like Hulk or Thor? That shield alone would likely be equivalent to a Major Artifact or something like Masterwork Returning Shield of Adamantine that grants DR/500 or something (seriously, while the case can be made Thor holds back when/if they fight, I really don't think the Green Hulk is the picture of restraint and he just hits harder the madder he gets). Take those away, can he tank getting shot a bunch like a high level character without his armor that gives DR, can he tank serious blows from the Incredible Hulk and can he bounce a normal shield around? Cap's impressive, no doubt, but I'm getting the impression the times he was beating things way higher than CR 7 was because he had OP equipment to help make up the difference in power. Basically, think of it this way in regards to the armor and especially the shield... If I got an RPG and blew up an elephant (CR7) am I automatically a higher level for killing a CR 7 monster, or did I need very special equipment to let me punch way above my weight class?

[Gavinfoxx]

Not particularly; it is poorly researched and contradicts several of the actual facts/rules in this thread so far.

I don't think we can actually take WotC's word on, well, what the numbers mean for anything to do with 3.5e? If you are saying they're the authority on the topic, then they really really really aren't. They might be the authority of what they intended to do, but I don't think they're the authority of what they actually did.

[hamishspence]

There is no level at which D&D capabilities at all reflect reality.

For PCs, sure. A real athlete would probably need to be represented with an NPC class, and have a Str much lower than the max, for runners, jumpers, and the like (it's safe to say that real world record jumpers do not have Str 18-grade lifting power).

Still, when an Expert with Dash, Fleet of Foot, and Quick trait, can approach marathon records, it just goes to show how simplified the rules for long-distance travel are.

[Biggus]

First, Cap's a comic book Peak Human, which is really closer to Low Level Super Human by our standards lol.

Yeah, Marvel's definition of "peak human" is quite a long way beyond the actual world record (although less extremely so than DC's). I think the assumption/handwave is that the absolute limit of human potential is well beyond what any actual human has attained; for example, if there really are billions of parallel universes, on the law of averages somebody somewhere has an IQ of 300+.



Second, Cap's beaten things higher than CR 7, sure... But how much of that is because he's a lot stronger than a Level 7 character and how much of it is because he has a body suit with different types of resistances and DR and a shield capable of tanking blows from 100+ tonners like Hulk or Thor? That shield alone would likely be equivalent to a Major Artifact or something like Masterwork Returning Shield of Adamantine that grants DR/500 or something (seriously, while the case can be made Thor holds back when/if they fight, I really don't think the Green Hulk is the picture of restraint and he just hits harder the madder he gets). Take those away, can he tank getting shot a bunch like a high level character without his armor that gives DR, can he tank serious blows from the Incredible Hulk and can he bounce a normal shield around? Cap's impressive, no doubt, but I'm getting the impression the times he was beating things way higher than CR 7 was because he had OP equipment to help make up the difference in power. Basically, think of it this way in regards to the armor and especially the shield... If I got an RPG and blew up an elephant (CR7) am I automatically a higher level for killing a CR 7 monster, or did I need very special equipment to let me punch way above my weight class?

Agreed that his shield counts as an artifact and that allows him to survive against opponents who'd otherwise only need to land one good blow to kill him. But it doesn't have any offensive powers, to defeat superior opponents rather than simply survive them, he has to rely on his own fighting skills.

In the old Marvel Superheroes RPG his fighting skill was given as "Amazing", which was defined as "peak human", in much the same way that their "peak human" strength is substantially above the actual world record. One site (https://classicmarvelforever.com/other_stuff/d20_conversion.htm) I found equates Amazing fighting skill with BAB+20. I'm not sure if I'd put it quite that high myself, but it seems pretty clear to me that he's at least a few levels higher than any real-world human in recorded history.