Ek manifest echo. Movement

[tomjon]

Quick question is it legal (raw) to move the echo into an area you can’t see or into a space that has something else in it. For instance can you create your echo have it walk though a door then change places with it. What happens if it’s inside an object?

[Misterwhisper]

Quick question is it legal (raw) to move the echo into an area you can’t see or into a space that has something else in it. For instance can you create your echo have it walk though a door then change places with it. What happens if it’s inside an object?

You can move the echo where you can’t see yes. You could for example tell it to move around a corner ahead of you.

No, it can’t be in the space of something else, it is not incorporeal, it can’t walk through doors or anything. The echo itself does occupy a space.

You can manifest it on the other side of something assuming you can see where to manifest it.
You could make it manifest outside prison bars and then change places. You couldn’t manifest it on the other side of a stone wall you can’t see through.

Because it is so badly written due to the fact it was not made in house, if it can interact with the environment is iffy.
You can make your attack come from it, but it doesn’t say it can interact with objects like opening a door or the like. I would say no, but some dms may say yes.

[Bobthewizard]

You can move the echo where you can’t see yes. You could for example tell it to move around a corner ahead of you.

No, it can’t be in the space of something else, it is not incorporeal, it can’t walk through doors or anything. The echo itself does occupy a space.

You can manifest it on the other side of something assuming you can see where to manifest it.
You could make it manifest outside prison bars and then change places. You couldn’t manifest it on the other side of a stone wall you can’t see through.

Because it is so badly written due to the fact it was not made in house, if it can interact with the environment is iffy.
You can make your attack come from it, but it doesn’t say it can interact with objects like opening a door or the like. I would say no, but some dms may say yes.

I read it the other way, but I agree it's not clear. Since it says it's an image of you, I think it is incorporeal. So if I had to go by RAW I would say you can move it through objects. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it though. Around corners, yes. Through walls, no. Since it's only an image, I don't think it can interact with objects.

[Misterwhisper]

I read it the other way, but I agree it's not clear. Since it says it's an image of you, I think it is incorporeal. So if I had to go by RAW I would say you can move it through objects. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it though. Around corners, yes. Through walls, no. Since it's only an image, I don't think it can interact with objects.

JC has said it counts as an object, for some reason.

[Nagog]

I read it the other way, but I agree it's not clear. Since it says it's an image of you, I think it is incorporeal. So if I had to go by RAW I would say you can move it through objects. As a DM, I wouldn't allow it though. Around corners, yes. Through walls, no. Since it's only an image, I don't think it can interact with objects.

I'd call it semi-corporeal, so it can interact with objects, but can't pass through occupied space. Its like a really weak clone of you made of smoke and high hopes.

[Veldrenor]

Quick question is it legal (raw) to move the echo into an area you can’t see or into a space that has something else in it. For instance can you create your echo have it walk though a door then change places with it. What happens if it’s inside an object?

RAW, the only answer is that the echo occupies space. Different DMs will interpret what that means differently, but Jeremy Crawford and Dan Dillon have said that it's supposed to mean that the echo occupies physical space and can't move through creatures or objects.



Because it is so badly written due to the fact it was not made in house,
The Explorer's Guide to Wildemount was published by Wizards of the Coast. The four writers on the team were freelancers (although three of them have a number of other 5e WotC D&D credits to their names), but all the developers, editors, and the playtest coordinator were in-house. The book is just as in-house as many of their other products. In the case of the Echo Knight specifically, sure, the initial idea and mechanics were not made in-house. But the team responsible for making it work and balancing it was in-house, so the claim that it wasn't is at least partially untrue.



Because it is so badly written due to the fact it was not made in house,
Being "in-house" doesn't automatically make something well written, and "not in-house" doesn't automatically make something badly written. The rules regarding lighting, stealth, and perception are all in-house. Magic Jar is in-house. The Coffeelock is in-house. All the Unearthed Arcana is in-house. "In-house" might be more likely to be balanced/well-written than 3rd party but it's certainly not guaranteed, especially because 5e's "rulings, not rules" philosophy gives the creators cover when they're unclear about how something should work.


JC has said it counts as an object, for some reason.

If it were a creature then it would need a bunch of extra text excluding it from rules that apply to creatures: it takes its initiative on your turn, it can't take any actions or reactions, it can't gain or provide flanking, it can't benefit from spells such as Invisibility/Bless/Heroism etc. If it were a creature it would also facilitate "bag-of-rats" nonsense, since you can summon a new one every 6 seconds.

If it were an illusory image then it would need a bunch of extra text allowing it to be targeted with spells and abilities since illusions are neither creatures nor objects.

That leaves "object," although that introduces problems of its own because a number of spells that should be able to target or affect the Echo can't. For example, you can't Magic Missile an object or damage a non-flammable object with a Fireball.

The rules get awkward regardless of whether the echo is a creature, an image, or an object. Maybe it should count as whichever of the three happens to be worse for the Echo Knight at the moment. You want it to walk through a wall? Sorry, it's an object. You want to tie a rope to it and tow loot? Sorry, it's an image. It moves away from an enemy? Sorry, it's a creature, Opportunity Attack.

[Bobthewizard]

JC has said it counts as an object, for some reason.


I'd call it semi-corporeal, so it can interact with objects, but can't pass through occupied space. Its like a really weak clone of you made of smoke and high hopes.


RAW, the only answer is that the echo occupies space. Different DMs will interpret what that means differently, but Jeremy Crawford and Dan Dillon have said that it's supposed to mean that the echo occupies physical space and can't move through creatures or objects.

I like these answers. Making the echo an object seems the best option. Not perfect, but the best. It also means others can't just walk through it without attacking it.

[iTreeby]

Quick question is it legal (raw) to move the echo into an area you can’t see or into a space that has something else in it. For instance can you create your echo have it walk though a door then change places with it. What happens if it’s inside an object?

The echo takes up space and is the same size as the character, it can't move through objects. You can move the echo somewhere you cannot see.