Brainstorming a setting for a Tier 4 classes only game

[LurkytheDwarf]

As a thought experiment, I've been looking at the revised tiers list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!)and been thinking about what such a setting would look like using only one tier for all the available classes. Tier 4 (minus Dragon magazine and UA generic classes) inspired me the most, so I went with that.

Classes: Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal

Half the iconic four are present (Fighter, Rogue) which points me in the direction of a setting more in the Sword and Sorcery genre like that of Lankhmar and Conan: episodic adventures, no world-threatening dangers, exotic locals, Arabian Nights, magical monsters and evil sorcerers.

A full third of the classes are either primitive or at least wilderness-based (Adept, Barbarian, Ranger, Scout). So the world should probably be very wild with vast tracks of untamed lands. Civilization tends to be very tightly concentrated, Points of Light–style city-states/kingdoms (something akin to that described in The Howling Emptiness of the World of Greyhawk (http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-howling-emptiness-of-world-of.html) by the Hill Cantons blog). Lone rangers tirelessly patrol the borders, warning towns of impending dangers, and tracking down missing caravans. Only rugged barbarian tribes dare dwell far out in the wilderness, aided by their wise women and witchdoctors (Adepts).

There's also a warfare theme in the classes as well (Marshal, Scout, Ninja). So war is common enough between the Points of Light that there are many former army commanders and scouts (very necessary to aid troops moving from one kingdom to another through the harsh wilds safely). I'm inclined to believe its the Points of Light at war and not monstrous humanoid hordes due to the presence of the Ninjas, which owes itself to an intense layer of intrigue, assassination, and espionage between sophisticated powers. Maybe the kingdoms aren't kingdoms but noble houses/clans/guilds seeking to protect their rice farms and poppy fields and steal those of their neighbors.

The Shadowcaster falls in with the theme of Points of Light and dark wilds, with the implication that the Plane of Shadow is encroaching upon the world. Perhaps Dark Creatures, Shadow Mastiffs, and the like hunt in the forests. On the surface, it would seem they are diametrically opposed to the Incarnum (the magic of souls/life). Maybe Shadowcasters get a bad rap while Incarnates are thought of more highly (when in reality a quarter of all of them are dedicated to evil) and there are probably more than a few Shadowcasters who use their powers for good.

While Spelltheif can steal from Adepts, Rangers, Shadowcasters, and Paladins, their own spell list implies, along with the Sword and Sorcery genre above, that there are at least some traditional magicians in the setting, but they would never become adventurers. They are all old and either cynically aloof or crazy, building weird dungeons for unknowable purposes, experimenting on people, and/or traveling the planes leaving their towers to be plundered by those foolhardy enough to try. Spellthieves will try, they've already figured out a little of the wizard's magic themselves, and always game to steal a little more.

I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present. The divine magic either comes from communing with nature (Rangers) or some sort of secret traditions passed down through generation (Adepts). I assume they would be the rarest class, as the setting outlined above doesn't necessarily feel like it tolerates traditional heroes very well—the barbarians too chaotic and the ninja-employing nobles too evil.

What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?

[Nifft]

As a thought experiment, I've been looking at the revised tiers list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!)and been thinking about what such a setting would look like using only one tier for all the available classes. Tier 4 (minus Dragon magazine and UA generic classes) inspired me the most, so I went with that.

Classes: Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal How about Dragon Shaman, Warlock, Psychic Rogue, and Hexblade?



What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?

Take a page from 5e and have Paladins derive all their power from their Oath.

(This also allows you to have variant Paladins with different Oaths.)

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present.

I like how you’re approaching the setting overall, and I wouldn’t say that what you’ve described places any limitations on gods per se.

You mention city-states, which fits the Conan theme very well, and could serve as a parallel to ancient Mesopotamia, where dozens of city-states fought endlessly over borders and trade. Each of those city-states was organized around a temple (or two temples in some cases), which was not only the center of religious activity, but also the economic and administrative hub for the city and its surrounding territory.

If you incorporate this approach into your setting, then each city-state has its own patron god, with a dedicated priesthood in the city’s central temple. Paladins would thus be the divine agents of each city’s patron god, pursuing the god’s interests—which are by definition the city’s interests—both within the city walls, across the city’s territory and wherever else the city’s interests require intervention.

[Biggus]

I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present. The divine magic either comes from communing with nature (Rangers) or some sort of secret traditions passed down through generation (Adepts). I assume they would be the rarest class, as the setting outlined above doesn't necessarily feel like it tolerates traditional heroes very well—the barbarians too chaotic and the ninja-employing nobles too evil.

What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?

Paladins are normally the rarest core class anyway (see p.139 of the DMG) although they might be even rarer in this kind of setting. I think it suits them quite well in a way: a few dedicated heroes trying to bring law and good to a world full of evil and chaos, they're swimming against the tide but that just makes them more determined.

If that doesn't work for you, maybe use the Paladin of Freedom variant from UA, for a more flexible version who might fit better into your world.

[LurkytheDwarf]

How about Dragon Shaman, Warlock, Psychic Rogue, and Hexblade?

In the list I used, they placed Warlock/Psychic Rogue in Tier 3 and Dragon Shaman/Hexblade in Tier 5. Further down the thread they have a brief summary for why every class is where it is. Apparently this revised list was put together by committee.


I like how you’re approaching the setting overall, and I wouldn’t say that what you’ve described places any limitations on gods per se.

You mention city-states, which fits the Conan theme very well, and could serve as a parallel to ancient Mesopotamia, where dozens of city-states fought endlessly over borders and trade. Each of those city-states was organized around a temple (or two temples in some cases), which was not only the center of religious activity, but also the economic and administrative hub for the city and its surrounding territory.

If you incorporate this approach into your setting, then each city-state has its own patron god, with a dedicated priesthood in the city’s central temple. Paladins would thus be the divine agents of each city’s patron god, pursuing the god’s interests—which are by definition the city’s interests—both within the city walls, across the city’s territory and wherever else the city’s interests require intervention.

That's a rather elegant solution. I like the idea of the priest hierarchy being more political than crusading; instead they use paladins to enforce their edicts. I think I'd have to open up the Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter variants to cover all the different alignments of the city-state patrons. That would give you one class which can only be LG/CG/LE/CE and another (Incarnate) which can only be NG/LN/CN/NE, which feels like there could be some friction there to be mined for rival factions.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
That's a rather elegant solution. I like the idea of the priest hierarchy being more political than crusading; instead they use paladins to enforce their edicts.

Glad you liked the suggestion, it seemed to fit what you had in mind.

Opening up the various paladin variants would work very well for representing the alignments of the different city gods. Alliances between the city-states would probably be tenuous and ever-changing, but they would also still be engaged in trade, both with each other and with other cultures outside their own region.


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
So the world should probably be very wild…. Only rugged barbarian tribes dare dwell far out in the wilderness….

Since you envision immense wild regions across most of the world, there’s also room for a full spectrum of nature-related deities, including gods of forests and rivers, mountains and oceans, as well as gods of the hunt and of wild creatures. There would also likely be a god (or goddess) of the harvest, worshipped by small agricultural settlements not under the direct control of the temple-based religions of the city-states.

As you mentioned, adepts would be most likely to serve as shamans or priests for these gods, and in some cases rangers might serve as instruments of their divine will, much as the paladins would for the temple-based gods. There are probably a lot of small agricultural settlements scattered in the regions between wilderness on the one hand and the city-states on the other, and these settlements would likely rely on a fair number of rangers for defense.

Some of the city-states will probably not hesitate to raid the farming settlements for captive labor, and this could lead to a number of scenarios in which the rangers are defending their people against slaving parties led by paladins of the non-good temple gods, who are acting in their city-states’ interests by procuring labor to support their divinely ordained economies.

There will also most likely be pastoralist nomads, tribes of wandering herders who neither farm crops nor build cities, but rather inhabit areas that others consider wastelands, arid and semiarid regions where life is tough and breeds tough folk. The nomads will trade with both farmers and city merchants, but will occasionally raid them instead, and if conditions become more difficult in their homelands (from drought or tribal unrest) they may become conquerors and take over a series of villages or even a small city-state.

Individual adventurers may occasionally rise to enough power to do the same—gather followers and take a city-state or a small region for themselves. Everything would be in constant strife and flux, with city-states warring against each other and marauding nomads, agricultural settlements fighting for their freedom and to defend their harvest, with opportunists and freebooters everywhere.

[Endarire]

What classes or class roles/party roles do you believe you're missing, if any?

[Luccan]

In the list I used, they placed Warlock/Psychic Rogue in Tier 3 and Dragon Shaman/Hexblade in Tier 5. Further down the thread they have a brief summary for why every class is where it is. Apparently this revised list was put together by committee.



That's a rather elegant solution. I like the idea of the priest hierarchy being more political than crusading; instead they use paladins to enforce their edicts. I think I'd have to open up the Freedom/Tyranny/Slaughter variants to cover all the different alignments of the city-state patrons. That would give you one class which can only be LG/CG/LE/CE and another (Incarnate) which can only be NG/LN/CN/NE, which feels like there could be some friction there to be mined for rival factions.

If you're willing to use setting books, the Religious Adept from the Eberron Campaign Setting provides a more deity focused adept via a single domain at the cost of familiars. So, you can still have a priestly caste capable of demonstrating not only power, but that they're blessed by their specific deity.

I've toyed with the tier-limited world idea in the past myself. It brings some interesting ideas to play with. I'm not sure Spellthieves actually can take the Shadowcaster's mysteries, which if they can't could lend them that extra air of menace (it's not even standard supernatural power!!!) though you may want to allow it any way. Still, notice the lack of Arcane spell casters. Given they steal power and cast non-divine magic, I would think a Spellthief would be very mistrusted beyond their basic criminal element. Like Shadowcasters, they defy the divine will of the gods/world.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmmm, I would probably rethink the Warlock in this Setting.

Both as it fits the "Mortal pactitioning with beings they should not even know" theme often used in Sword and Sorcery AND, if you assume a lower magic World, removing the Warlocks "Craft anything" Feature in msot cases makes it Tierr 4 (if highest) anyway.

As for the Paladin: Paladins dont need Gods anyway (ven if they are normally associated with them). They are empowered by the pure Law and Good within the Planes and themselves.

I would even put Paladins as a counterpoint to the "small Cults with flaws" Gods used in S&S Settings if I would use them.

Just make sure that they are clearedr regarding their COde and "Falling Situatiuons", as the World is usually even more Grey in such Settings, and the Paladins as Beacojns of Light more important, if rarer.


Overall I like the Feel this seems to be developing.

Keep Going!

[LurkytheDwarf]

Glad you liked the suggestion, it seemed to fit what you had in mind.

Some of the city-states will probably not hesitate to raid the farming settlements for captive labor, and this could lead to a number of scenarios in which the rangers are defending their people against slaving parties led by paladins of the non-good temple gods, who are acting in their city-states’ interests by procuring labor to support their divinely ordained economies.

...

Individual adventurers may occasionally rise to enough power to do the same—gather followers and take a city-state or a small region for themselves.

Wow. That is like almost exactly what happens in Conan the Barbarian (1982).


What classes or class roles/party roles do you believe you're missing, if any?

I'm not really considering roles right now, though I guess healing might be in slightly shorter supply. Really just piecing together a campaign setting using the Tier 4 classes as inspiration.


If you're willing to use setting books, the Religious Adept from the Eberron Campaign Setting provides a more deity focused adept via a single domain at the cost of familiars. So, you can still have a priestly caste capable of demonstrating not only power, but that they're blessed by their specific deity.

I've toyed with the tier-limited world idea in the past myself. It brings some interesting ideas to play with. I'm not sure Spellthieves actually can take the Shadowcaster's mysteries, which if they can't could lend them that extra air of menace (it's not even standard supernatural power!!!) though you may want to allow it any way. Still, notice the lack of Arcane spell casters. Given they steal power and cast non-divine magic, I would think a Spellthief would be very mistrusted beyond their basic criminal element. Like Shadowcasters, they defy the divine will of the gods/world.

Religious Adept is a really good catch. Palanan's city-state temples could have domain adepts (giving them strange spells granted by their unnatural/manmade gods, the nature gods being a bit more passive I would assume) while the barbarian/tribal witches/adepts still have familiars (which flavorwise feels on point). I like the idea of more cloistered clerics in robes who are political schemers than full-plated holy warriors. I also like when they get 8+ level they get lightning bolt instead of fireball, which gives them a sort of Emporer Palpatine–style menace.

I too am not sure if Spellthieves can take Shadowcaster's powers. If I remember correctly they act like spells for a certain time then become spell-like abilities, and the Spellthief does say something about stealing Warlock spell-like abilities. So maybe. With the adepts really taking on the religious caster roles (and becoming more prevalent in society), I guess I could do away with the sorcerer/wizard npcs altogether. Instead you have spellthieves sort of filling in for them: they would probably be the ones really throwing around enchantments and divination and transmutation, meanwhile stealing the powers of the other casters which leaves them as sort of predatory outsiders to the rest of the magic-users in the setting. They hint at the possibility of wizards/sorcerers in the past, a long dead civilization whose ruins litter the world and hide the magic items they crafted so long ago. A spellthief would just be the last and weakest in the long decaying line of those older, more powerful traditions.


Hmmmm, I would probably rethink the Warlock in this Setting.

Both as it fits the "Mortal pactitioning with beings they should not even know" theme often used in Sword and Sorcery AND, if you assume a lower magic World, removing the Warlocks "Craft anything" Feature in msot cases makes it Tierr 4 (if highest) anyway.

As for the Paladin: Paladins dont need Gods anyway (ven if they are normally associated with them). They are empowered by the pure Law and Good within the Planes and themselves.

I would even put Paladins as a counterpoint to the "small Cults with flaws" Gods used in S&S Settings if I would use them.

Just make sure that they are clearedr regarding their COde and "Falling Situatiuons", as the World is usually even more Grey in such Settings, and the Paladins as Beacojns of Light more important, if rarer.

Warlocks indeed could fit into the setting as well as probably several other classes but for now I'm going to stick with the core twelve I started with and see if during brainstorming anything would come up which would preclude other classes. Like right now, I know any of the classes in Tier 1 and 2 are out because this is already a sort of lower magic or at least a stranger-magic setting. Though eventually things from 3 and 5 could possibly appear.

I am waffling back and forth on paladins because while I do like the idea of them being enforcers for the city-state temples, there's just something about the pure Lawful Good shining knight which has always appealed to me. Perhaps, they are born to fulfill a certain purpose which they discover over the course of their adventuring careers.

Anyway, I've been thinking about the origins of the setting. I'm drawn to two descriptions from Incarnum and Shadow Magic:

"Before creation, darkness was all, and it waits even now beyond the edges of all worlds."
"Incarnum is an amorphous magical substance made up of the soul energies of all sentient creatures—living, dead, and, it is theorized, those even not yet born."

So it goes, the potential soul energies of life was swimming around in darkness and eventually congealed into the world. Something like that...

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
Wow. That is like almost exactly what happens in Conan the Barbarian (1982).

Not sure if you were being sarcastic here or not. I was making those suggestions based on Mesopotamian history. Renegades did sometimes come out of nowhere and seize power in a city-state, although their "empires" tended not to outlive them.


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
I am waffling back and forth on paladins because while I do like the idea of them being enforcers for the city-state temples, there's just something about the pure Lawful Good shining knight which has always appealed to me.

Well, there’s no reason why one or more of the city-state temples couldn’t be devoted to a Lawful Good deity. And while the city-states are each devoted to a specific god, they don’t own that god, so it’s likely that one or more LG deities would be worshipped around the entire region. There’s plenty of leeway to have paladins both as temple agents as well as independently roaming instruments of divine will.

[lylsyly]

I love the concept.

I kept the number of gods down to a minimum in My homebrewed setting. A Creator (Lawful). His Wife Nature (Neutral). Their Son The Corruptor (Chaotic). It's worked well for us for a few years now.

YMMV ;-)

[bean illus]

Archers become more viable in T4 settings, so barbarian hordes are more feasible.

[Nifft]

In the list I used, they placed Warlock/Psychic Rogue in Tier 3 and Dragon Shaman/Hexblade in Tier 5. Further down the thread they have a brief summary for why every class is where it is. Apparently this revised list was put together by committee.

If UMD was a justification, you should discount it in this setting -- arbitrary magic item crafting won't be so easy to come by.

You can see the reasoning behind the standard tiers here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)

[Doctor Despair]

If UMD was a justification, you should discount it in this setting -- arbitrary magic item crafting won't be so easy to come by.

You can see the reasoning behind the standard tiers here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?269440-Why-Each-Class-Is-In-Its-Tier-(Rescued-from-MinMax)

That's a fair point. I'd imagine that would knock down Psychic Rogue a bit; would that empower mid-level casters like the Hexblade or misc buffers like the Dragon Shaman enough to be considered T4 in this setting though? I haven't played either of the latter, but I'd imagine the Dragon Shaman healing utility would be more pronounced in a world without NI wands of cure light wounds to purchase...

[Palanan]

OP, any more thoughts on this?

It's a great concept, and it would be a lot of fun to play in this setting. I keep thinking of other aspects to include, but wanted to get your thoughts on what's been posted recently.

[Troacctid]

That's a fair point. I'd imagine that would knock down Psychic Rogue a bit; would that empower mid-level casters like the Hexblade or misc buffers like the Dragon Shaman enough to be considered T4 in this setting though? I haven't played either of the latter, but I'd imagine the Dragon Shaman healing utility would be more pronounced in a world without NI wands of cure light wounds to purchase...
Adepts are right there. They can do crafting just fine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Craft Wand were a common feat for them, since they have so few spell slots. Same with the half-casters.

Psychic rogue's power isn't really dependent on UPD, so I wouldn't expect it to lose much power. However, if your campaign takes place at lower levels (say levels 1–10), a lot of classes might move around because of that.

I think NPC classes want to still be around for gameplay reasons. They are legitimately useful for building NPCs.

[Gavinfoxx]

For Adepts, I'd combine the benefits of Adept and Religious Adept, and maybe a few selected spells from Urban Adept, and pick which domains are readily available for them to pick. Then I'd make the feats:

Scribe Scroll
Inscribe Rune
Craft Magic Arms & Armor
Craft Wand
Brew Potion
Craft Wondrous Item

the main feats available, and then figure out what these Religious/Urban/etc. Adepts of, oohhhhh, 13th level and below can make with these feats can make, and those are the magic items available in the setting.

Or possibly even remove Craft Wondrous Item and Brew Potion, and have the main crafters max out at Adept 5/Runecaster8 (for Improved Runecasting), and have Wondrous Items be those legendary items of yore.

[RedWarlock]

Does this mean you'd adjust the prices for base items, since they're based on tier 1-2 caster level access?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Troacctid
I think NPC classes want to still be around for gameplay reasons.

I was just about to post this same sentiment. Probably no reason why anything under Tier 4 couldn’t make an appearance. The expert would see heavy use for the artisans who contribute to the city-state temple economies.

Also, I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet, but are there any restrictions on prestige classes? Presumably anything relying on higher-tier base classes would be absent, so no arcane hierophants, but what about other PrCs?

I think mystic theurge with ranger/spellthief is possible, if not exactly ideal, but it could make for an interesting NPC if the PrC is allowed.

[Knaight]

Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal

Some of these work really well for S&S, though the Paladin is weird. So, let's talk genre tropes, and how these fit.

Weird Sketchy Magic: The Shadowcaster, Incarnate, and to a lesser extent Spellthief all work pretty well here. The Adept works less well, but what I do like about them is that they're not particularly coded as scholarly arcane casters. You could probably drop the Arcane/Divine split (which is one of the things that makes D&D feel so specifically D&D in setting), and play up the plethora of tiny gods side.

Types of Civilizations: It's really common in S&S for there to be 3 broad categories of civilization (though it's a trope that can get gross and racist fast if not handled with caution, especially if you're taking influence from 1930's and 1940's work uncritically). Still, the decadent and decaying heavily urbanized civilizations work, as do the clannish "barbarian" cultures, as do the more anarchic, undisciplined "savage" cultures. The martial classes can form a nice continuum across most of this, very roughly in a Rogue->Marshal->Fighter->Scout->Ranger->Barbarian distribution. The ninja and paladin are a bit weird.

Broadly Iron Age: S&S isn't usually particularly historically rooted, but inasmuch as it is it's usually more bronze age to iron age, extending a bit into pre-Roman classical. This ties into the magic a bit, as the mage/priest/administer archetype works really well with a fantasy version of ancient Mesopotamia in particular, and oh look, there's that Adept again, perfect for the role. It also helps that we don't have the Knight and a few other more thoroughly medieval classes around, though again, the Paladin is the odd one out.

Cults: Weird secluded cults are a whole thing, often tied to the aforementioned sketchy magic. While it would be really helpful to have the Warlock and Binder around, the Incarnate works so well as a cultist of some sort. This also might be a place where paladins can be incorporated, as some sort of cataphract order tied to a benign cult associated with a minor steppe horse god. Though the alignment requirement and S&S tropes are still not playing as nice as I'd like.

Obviously there's also the class-as-detached-mechanics approach which nullifies a lot of this, but if you're trying to derive setting from classes that seems like an incompatible decision.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Knaight
…the Paladin is the odd one out.

As already discussed, the paladin works perfectly fine as an agent of the various city-state temple deities, as well as in other roles. The OP indicated he’s fine with opening up the alignment variants of the paladin, to better match with the different alignments of the temple deities.


Originally Posted by Knaight
It's really common in S&S for there to be 3 broad categories of civilization....

This may be true for that subgenre of fiction, but I wouldn't use that to restrict the cultures and polities available in a game world.

And those categories themselves are really caricatures, which contribute very little to a campaign setting and are best avoided.

[LurkytheDwarf]

Not sure if you were being sarcastic here or not. I was making those suggestions based on Mesopotamian history. Renegades did sometimes come out of nowhere and seize power in a city-state, although their "empires" tended not to outlive them.

Well, there’s no reason why one or more of the city-state temples couldn’t be devoted to a Lawful Good deity. And while the city-states are each devoted to a specific god, they don’t own that god, so it’s likely that one or more LG deities would be worshipped around the entire region. There’s plenty of leeway to have paladins both as temple agents as well as independently roaming instruments of divine will.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't use "wow" in a text-based discussion. While I'm not as familiar with Mesopotamian lore, with Conan being one of the quintessential sword-and-sorcery stories it was just very interesting how closely the idea synched up with it.

I do think I like sticking with LG paladins. The Incarnate with their rigid ideologies could often be used as the standard "elite enforcer" for many temples. I was considering the individual patron gods to be the older model in the city-states. I've started to construct one religion (a Lawful Neutral deity with a portfolio of leadership, destiny, and secrets) that would be breaking the previous mold, exporting their faith throughout the city-states and in some cases rising to total authority. This would be a relatively new invention (perhaps over the last hundred years or so). I could see both crusading paladins and scheming priests working for various holy orders within the church.


Adepts are right there. They can do crafting just fine. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Craft Wand were a common feat for them, since they have so few spell slots. Same with the half-casters.

Psychic rogue's power isn't really dependent on UPD, so I wouldn't expect it to lose much power. However, if your campaign takes place at lower levels (say levels 1–10), a lot of classes might move around because of that.

I think NPC classes want to still be around for gameplay reasons. They are legitimately useful for building NPCs.

For Adepts, I'd combine the benefits of Adept and Religious Adept, and maybe a few selected spells from Urban Adept, and pick which domains are readily available for them to pick. Then I'd make the feats:

Scribe Scroll
Inscribe Rune
Craft Magic Arms & Armor
Craft Wand
Brew Potion
Craft Wondrous Item

the main feats available, and then figure out what these Religious/Urban/etc. Adepts of, oohhhhh, 13th level and below can make with these feats can make, and those are the magic items available in the setting.

Or possibly even remove Craft Wondrous Item and Brew Potion, and have the main crafters max out at Adept 5/Runecaster8 (for Improved Runecasting), and have Wondrous Items be those legendary items of yore.

I generally agree with this. I don't really want to yet put any limitations on or go beyond the standard variants of what any of the tier 4 classes are capable of, but I do prefer the idea of the more powerful items being leftovers from the fallen ancient empire which spawned the spellthieves. That the adepts have the easiest path toward crafting gives me the notion that they used the expendable items (wands, scrolls, potions) to rise to their positions of prominence in the government and commerce of the city-states.


Does this mean you'd adjust the prices for base items, since they're based on tier 1-2 caster level access?

I like this idea as well. While I don't mind the presence of wands of cure light wounds and potions of protection form evil, I would prefer to limit what specific spells are available in those forms by using the adept spell list and increasing the base cost of things like 2nd+ level wands because adepts' default CL for those spells is higher (which would mean a cure moderate wounds wand would heal like 2d8+4 but cost 6,000 gp to show that more powerful magic is still harder to come by).


I was just about to post this same sentiment. Probably no reason why anything under Tier 4 couldn’t make an appearance. The expert would see heavy use for the artisans who contribute to the city-state temple economies.

Also, I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet, but are there any restrictions on prestige classes? Presumably anything relying on higher-tier base classes would be absent, so no arcane hierophants, but what about other PrCs?

I think mystic theurge with ranger/spellthief is possible, if not exactly ideal, but it could make for an interesting NPC if the PrC is allowed.

Yes, I was already thinking the rest of the NPC classes would be in use, just not of any interest to player characters. And some of the lower tiers could also make appearances, perhaps in strange places like a lost city beneath a pyramid cut off from the world for ages, or some such place.

As far as prestige classes, my initial thought was to make these brainstorming posts a sort of series. Get the basics for the type of world (terrain/authority centers/culture/dangers), and then move on to what player races should be available in another thread and finally prestige classes in the last after we know what the setting/characters/foes look like. But yes, I would like a highly tailored list of prestige classes, and hopefully perhaps elevating some of the niftier ones because they couldn't compete with the power levels of the higher tiers.

To that end, in this thread at least, I should bring up Dangers/Foes. I've been considering it for the last couple of days, and I'll admit as far as low-level enemies are concerned I'm sort of tired of orcs and goblins and kobolds. Actually, when I think about how dangerous the wilderness is supposed to be, it's kind of hard imagining them surviving out there. My initial thought is to lean towards the content of books like Lost Empires of Faerun and the Fiend Folio. It jells with the notion of the terrible dread of the wilds and the ever-present Plane of Shadow and perhaps the invasion through it of entities from alternate material planes. The kind of setting which doesn't have traditional dragons, instead it has Linnorms.

City-State of Pa-Bolushti: Origin of the Eastern Spice Road.
https://66.media.tumblr.com/93e6da7bd15e631ede409502c75e9f03/tumblr_nc85ncTs0Q1tv3g49o1_1280.jpg

City-State of Kalygatt: On the border of the barbarian hinterland; northernmost of the Cathedrals of the Awakened God.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bb/b5/20/bbb520699ab743f5ae3a826938bd3f93.jpg

Valley of the Firstborn: Frequent passage of barbarian nomads, though few dare enter the fortress-tombs of the ancients, and of those none return.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/03/6a/c9036a06f8b7b8d2200f002a472a9993.jpg

Priscus Town: Where the every lights burn all night; not far from Kalygatt.
https://c4.wallpaperflare.com/wallpaper/736/177/261/fantasy-art-fantasy-city-wallpaper-preview.jpg

Sun-Blessed Nimosura: Jewel of the Dunes; the reptile god Gunwar Pazzel is dead, Keora, Goddess of the Free Flame reigns here now; her fire dervish evangelists roam far.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fa/7c/d2/fa7cd272aeb3777998a3ab03c4991e95.jpg

Hall of Thane Gruzvall Cold-Eyes: In the Land of Seldom Sun; far north of Kalygatt.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/db/63/87db63004daee9e87b1275d9cb5d602b.png

Common Sights for Those Who Dare the Wildlands
https://allisondreid.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/sanctuary-by-juan-pablo-roldan.jpg?w=620
https://c4.wallpaperflare.com/wallpaper/509/307/811/fantasy-art-forest-nature-ruins-wallpaper-preview.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/HJN-zsv1TZ7nsQMZdNEemq8G8SRphGk-iPNQaLgWqe64myMWAzvcoISnGwGhuZ5kKB-ug3tCSH6FYUyebTbVYgG5G8YOoCIJpp6mYiyog1Yw2kG17cO_r r6TdLOGr-8Yzr5627BfY4lPhgJmfL81iyYO-GZC9vNZnL3KMrpbvghv5FBQ

What People Believe the Fate for All Those Who Wander Too Far Off the Map
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/001/748/153/large/eddie-mendoza-forartstation.jpg?1452153216

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
I've started to construct one religion (a Lawful Neutral deity with a portfolio of leadership, destiny, and secrets) that would be breaking the previous mold, exporting their faith throughout the city-states and in some cases rising to total authority.

I like it. This is a great concept to include, and lets the players feel like they’re part of history in the making, no matter what side they’re on.


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
I do think I like sticking with LG paladins.

…I could see both crusading paladins and scheming priests working for various holy orders within the church.

You did mention you really liked the knight-in-shining-armor aspect of the paladin. I really liked the alignment-based variants as temple agents, but maybe that's part of the old paradigm that the Awakened Church is fighting to replace?


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
…and then move on to what player races should be available in another thread….

Looking forward to seeing that thread, because I’d been wondering what races you would consider suitable here.

Just to get a head start on this discussion, I hope you’ll include halflings. They would fit very well as temple servants for the city-states, and I could see halfling tribes able to survive in marginal habitats more easily than most other races. They’re quiet, shy, and in a pinch they can survive on less food, which means areas that couldn’t support humans would still provide a living for halflings.


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
…I’ll admit as far as low-level enemies are concerned I'm sort of tired of orcs and goblins and kobolds.

Right there with you.


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
*Inspirational Artwork*

Some excellent and evocative pieces in there. A couple of them are a little more medieval than I’d been assuming, but then I’m approaching this from a Mesopotamian perspective.

[Maat Mons]

I'd make these the "common" classes:


CasterExpertWarrior
Barbarian LandsStandard AdeptWilderness RogueBarbarian
City-StatesReligious AdeptFeat RogueStandard Fighter
Mysterious EastDragon ShamanStandard MonkMarshal
Sinister CultsShadowcasterStandard RogueSneak Attack Fighter


I'd make the other allowed classes varying degrees of rare.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
I'd make these the "common" classes:

Interesting. I'd use ranger instead of wilderness rogue for the most common expert in the great open country outside the city-states. I'm sure there are valid arguments both ways, but for me this is the ranger's territory. Despite the name, wilderness rogue is kind of a niche concept to be the most common in actual wilderness areas.

Tastes and mileage may vary, just my preference.

[Gavinfoxx]

Personally, I feel that in this sort of game, you can make damn near any archetype with access to enough Ranger ACF's...

[Maat Mons]

In an earlier version of that list, I had a fourth column consisting of Ranger, Paladin, Sohei, and Hexblade. But then I decided that warrior/caster hybrids didn't feel like they should be "common," so I cut it. Then again, casters probably wouldn't be very common either. So I probably could have just as well left it.

In an even earlier version, Scout occupied the space that I later gave to Wilderness Rogue. I switched it out because I feel like Sneak Attack is a more useful ability for a hunter than Skirmish. Creep into range, aim carefully, and take the animal down in one shot.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Maat Mons
Creep into range, aim carefully, and take the animal down in one shot.

Rangers have full BAB, so a ranger has a better chance of hitting. Also a better chance of following tracks to find the animal, and a better chance of calming any predators he meets along the way. And a better chance of surviving the elements or anything requiring a Fort save.

Wilderness rogues are really not that great at operating in the wilderness. Just my view.

[LurkytheDwarf]

Some excellent and evocative pieces in there. A couple of them are a little more medieval than I’d been assuming, but then I’m approaching this from a Mesopotamian perspective.

I did at first, but then got to looking around and started to figure that the world was probably really, really big and pockets of city-states are scattered throughout the various different terrains. Some are very ancient in their architecture while others use newer methods (full plate being a thing does point towards some element of the medieval). Either way, any DM can focus on one specific region for their campaign if they want to keep it a certain flavor, or have the characters wander the globe(?) and experience the different cultures. Either way, the city-state model holds up throughout the campaign setting.


The Icelands North of the Inner Sea
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/ce/97/f3ce971e57b643ab84754f5fc4e44ed6.jpg

The Dunes and Crags South of the Inner Sea
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c5/ed/ce/c5edce41c4c6a0ecb25920514bace22c.jpg

Beyond the Sands to the Plains of the Impossible South
https://66.media.tumblr.com/8adf197a1f9d3a32ecbbc511758e7600/tumblr_owxh4sWoYz1ssokpeo1_1280.jpg

Inn and Teahouse along the Eastern Silk Road: Located in the Great Mountain Waves.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1b/db/7e/1bdb7e8220fca0eb3b9624af3dddfde5.jpg

The Throat of Amrisol: The deadly and uncharted western end of the Inner Sea.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/mS5zGz21iNI5koctGUcgMKQ7QKzqJjD2UvQ6r9-lGwBTTPQ-I0BbQbPllnMQqZoLCWOIU3XqWEZ2OFzMTPQxG1IohEbQER5WFi ephg

The Arches of Ulthrim: Near the center of the Inner Sea.
https://cdna.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/017/649/184/20190502114614/smaller_square/luka-mivsek-luka-mivsek-island-01.jpg?1556815574

Grand Thûlopolis: The center of the world.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Jupiter_Pluvius%2C_ancient_Greek_city_of_Lebadeia% 2C_1819%2C_Joseph_Gandy.jpg/1280px-Jupiter_Pluvius%2C_ancient_Greek_city_of_Lebadeia% 2C_1819%2C_Joseph_Gandy.jpg

What to Expect for Those Who Dare the Outer Sea and the World End Waters
https://www.wallpaperflare.com/static/609/661/235/fantasy-art-sea-clouds-gray-wallpaper.jpg

[LurkytheDwarf]

I completed one random encounter chart. It took me a little longer than I initially anticipated, so I limited myself to the southern region of the setting, the one with the closest feel to the Mesopotamian city-states idea. I think after this, anybody that wants to can start considering what types of PC races should be included.

Dunes and Crags of the South Random Encounter Table (1d6 if traveling through the fertile valleys, 1d6+3 if traveling by the caravan routes, 1d6+6 if wandering the deep wastes)
*Encounter only happens once. Treat further rolls as no encounter.

(1) You have come upon an oasis and watering hole but be careful, there is a Hippopotamus (Sa pg 193) herd lounging out in the water. Keen eyes are necessary while at the water's edge or the PCs might disturb one and sending it into a territorial charge.
(2) Skulk (FF pg 154) coterie (2-8) trails the party looking to steal anything they can. If confronted in their thieving they turn violent until wounded then they attempt to flee like the cowards they are.
(3*) A camel still bearing its bulging saddlebags (1d6x25 gp worth of mercantile goods) has died in the shade of a large, wasteland briar—really a Bloodthorn (FF pg 23), it is finished with the camel and waiting for scavengers to take away the corpse. It's still hungry enough to drink at least one character.
(4) A Dire Vulture (Sa pg 152) begins to circle the PCs at a height of two-hundred-feet. If struck by an attack, it will become irate and seek to kill the smallest member of the party and fly away with them. If it is reduced below half hit points, it stops pursuing them. If it is ignored, it attracts 3-19 additional Dire Vultures and the PCs will need to kill a pack animal or come up with something suitably clever to distract the flock so they can flee.
(5*) At night, a strange merchant riding a pack lizard and traveling alone approaches the party. He is friendly and wishes to share their campsite. If they haven't eaten he producing food with a wave of his hand. His name is Khalim and he is a wandering Janni (MM1 pg 116), he knows many things about the Dunes and Crags of the South (including information about the Arcane Radiation Storms (see #12) and why not to let a Dire Vulture (see #4) circle you, and whatever relevant information about the local city-states the DM wishes to give. If the PCs are polite, he is polite (willing to play games of chance for small wagers) and leaves in the morning. If they are rude, he will challenge the strongest looking one to a duel, which while bloody should not be fatal. If they PCs gang up on him, his two guard animals emerge from hiding in plain sight—treat as Cheetahs with the Dark Creature template (ToM pg 161).
(6*) Brightly colored pavilion in the distance. If inspected, the ground around the tent is littered with bodies: retainers and a traveling noble of some importance. There is nothing of value left in the tent. If the PCs stay the night (taking the time to bury the bodies will do that), an Average Psurlon (LoM pg 163) comes back under invisibility. It was storing the noble's gold and jewelry and is now returning to fix the scene to make it look like another city or the Asherati are responsible for the noble's death to sow discord. Upon seeing the PCs, the Average Psurlon plans to implicate them instead.
(7) Asherati (Sa pg 139) company (11-20 plus 2 3rd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 3rd-6th level). They are patrolling the caravan routes and are friendly to obvious traders/merchants, but highly suspicious of those traveling lightly believing they may be jackalwere raiders traveling in disguise. As such the Asherati avoid their gaze while interrogating the party.
(8) Ashworms (Sa pg 140) cluster (2-4) traveling underground near the caravan route, they make a thunderous noise as they move. Fast thinking PCs may find a way of getting off the ground to avoid the ashworm's notice, otherwise, they turn and attack the party.
(9) Jackalwere (FF pg 107) raiders (2-4 plus 1d6 jackals) seeking the flesh of their enemies. The raiders appear as jackals and move within an ordinary pack. If the party is traveling with a caravan there is a 50% chance one of the NPCs is a jackalwere spy in disguise who also attacks when its brothers do. Jackalweres leave no witnesses.
(10) - Monolithic stone head half-buried in the sand. One cavernous nostril opens to a hollow uneven space within (roll for random treasure). A solitary Nishruu (LEoF pg 186) lairs within, but will only chase trespassers outside if its night time. Future rolls can be different types of monolithic ruins.
(11*) - Among the crags, the PCs discover a ruined structure built into a cliff. Its stone slab door has been busted open. Inside are a series of tomb chambers going deeper into the mountain. The sarcophagi were broken and looted. All the treasure from this tomb complex has been mounded on a small island in the deepest chamber which has flooded from the cracks in one wall due to erosion from an aquifer. Out of desperation, it might be possible to damage the cracked wall enough to collapse the entire room. In this deepest chamber dwells a Deepspawn (LEoF pg 166), it likely has already sent its three current spawn (use CR 3-4 creatures unusual to the setting, so maybe actual MM1 ones) to dissuade the intruders but will fight to the death if it's confronted here.
(12) The true peril of the deep wastes are the lingering storms of arcane radiation from the fall of an ancient empire. They sweep invisibly across the land burning everything in their path. Virtually everything dies which is caught in one, and is why most travelers carefully plot their course to be within easy reach of a sheltering cave or hollow, or they carry powerful magics with make them resistant, or they can borrow into the ground. An arcane radiation storm is invisible, only its effects can be seen (a scrub turning to ash, a bird cooked to death out of the sky, etc.). A character caught in one takes 3d10 fire damage/round, and a storm takes 2d10 minutes to pass over.

[Palanan]

Were you going to start a separate thread for geography? I think you mentioned that a little earlier, not sure if you were still intending to.

[LurkytheDwarf]

Were you going to start a separate thread for geography? I think you mentioned that a little earlier, not sure if you were still intending to.

Since there's so much room, I think I'm going to keep everything in this one thread. I'll probably start editing the first post to give anybody new an idea of the direction the thread's been going in.

As far as geography, I sort of gave the roughest notion of what sorts of terrain are where in post #29. But I'm up for any additional ideas on the topic or even a much smaller more detailed region if anyone's been playing around with such a thing.

[Luccan]

Well, Asherati seem obvious as you already mention them. I like desert elves and one of my own settings uses them as the default, rather than having elves be native forest dwellers.

[Falontani]

Going through a list of +0 LA 0 RHD races;

Asherati - Desert dwelling humanoids that can be a lamp and can swim through sand.

Daelkyr Half-Blood - Hear me out; they can be rare, and be the 'tiefling' of the setting. Distrusted, must hide among others, don't belong. You can easily keep their lore with what it seems to be your going for, or change it up a bit.

Duskling - These can be the remnants of the old fey. The Faerie Courts are either gone, missing, or have ceased caring for the world, so the old noble fey are gone, leaving the good fey scattered and rare, while the Unseelie Court has probably won, making the powerful humanoid fey creatures left almost certainly evil, dark, and corruptors. Interestingly enough they also are Incarnum users, which makes sense with them having some of the "old blood"

Dwarf: I think the kinds of dwarves should match their dwellings, but you could easily have it be
Badlands/Desert Dwarf - The most prolific dwarves remaining
Dream Dwarf - Rare, and probably one to two per dwarven community. Probably not a true breed of dwarf, but just a genetic offbreed type deal. IDK that sounds worse than what I am trying to go for...

Elf: I am partial towards the Painted Elf and Wood Elf here. Wood Elves are probably the few creatures that regularly visit the deep wilds, and any adventurers would probably seek out the Wood Elves before delving into the deep wilds themselves.

Gnome: Honestly these guys probably are rare and old. I would expect since many of them are among the longest lived of races these are where the Spellthieves are left. I would use Arctic/Ice Gnomes or Whisper Gnomes.

Goblin: I wouldn't count these guys out. They probably directly compete with halflings for territory. Easily shift their alignment as a whole towards neutral like the other civilized races. I suggest: Vril, Jungle Goblins, and Air Goblins, with Jungle Goblins being the most prominent.

Halflings: I think the halflings left should be: Jungle Halflings (directly competing with the Jungle Goblins, and occasionally alongside them), Ghostwise Halflings, and Jerren. Having the Jerren be the most prolific of the halflings would make halflings as a whole be mostly untrusted, and more likely to become cultists (Shadowcasters). (I keep saying untrusted, but one of the biggest things to keep society down is not trusting one another. They gotta work together, but if they work too well together, then society will begin to rebuild after whatever caused the old world to cease.)

Humans: Obviously humans are still around. If there is ever a time that the humans fail to adapt to whatever is left, then it is undoubtedly rare that the other races can. I suggest the following: Human (obviously), Azurin (Probably an upper caste of Incarnate Humans that push the other humans down as often as they bring them up.), Mongrelfolk (because they are human? I guess?) but actually because Mongrelfolk are supposed to be both the "don't interbreed too much" and the "don't inbreed" race; whatever catastrophe happened, Mongrelfolk will probably arise, and finally Extraminar, for the untrustworthy version, and the version that probably works well with the setting (as I am seeing it).

Shifter - probably make them actually what happens when an afflicted lycanthrope breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a shifter, etc. Less trusted due to lycanthropes being 'evil'.

Tibbit - Perhaps the mages of old were truly powerful enough to have humanoids as familiars, maybe not. But if one thing is true, its that Tibbits are the descendants of the familiars that the powerful mages of old possessed. You could probably create variants for most of the normal familiar types, but I'd keep it as just Cat, and maybe Rat.

Finally: This one may mesh with your setting, it may not. Warforged. If you do have them, then they were definitely made by the old mages, and mostly run down, and in disrepair. Biologically immortal, but there is a catch, they can go insane if they don't have something to do. While exploring ruins these guys can be a common enemy. I would suggest adding the Quorcraft template to any warforged that has gone insane. For player characters of the warforged, they should definitely be very very old creatures and hard to scrounge up parts to repair, possibly starting up adventuring specifically to find parts. Perhaps they remember a long past war that they were created to fight in. Perhaps that they fought for the mages, and they lost. The warforged left in society were either servants, or renegades in that war. Those that fled rather than being slaughtered by whatever ancient enemy they fought. If it isn't known what the enemy was, make it so that the warforged weren't able to comprehend what they were fighting against. If it is known, then they definitely can know.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Your race suggestions are interesting, but aren't daelkyr really specific to the cosmology of eberron? Warforged can be slotted anywhere pretty easily, but if I remember, daelkyr come from a plane that only exists in that setting. Maybe regular tieflings would be more fitting instead, as warlocks are the common caster? Either those who make the pact, or their descendants, becoming physically, and probably mentally corrupted by the dark powers they use.

Also, sidenote for OP, if magic, and magic users, are so severely restricted, wouldn't more gishes make sense? Hexblade, for example, seems like it'd fit your "evil temple guardian" idea fairly well.

[Luccan]

Your race suggestions are interesting, but aren't daelkyr really specific to the cosmology of eberron? Warforged can be slotted anywhere pretty easily, but if I remember, daelkyr come from a plane that only exists in that setting. Maybe regular tieflings would be more fitting instead, as warlocks are the common caster? Either those who make the pact, or their descendants, becoming physically, and probably mentally corrupted by the dark powers they use.

Also, sidenote for OP, if magic, and magic users, are so severely restricted, wouldn't more gishes make sense? Hexblade, for example, seems like it'd fit your "evil temple guardian" idea fairly well.

Why does everyone keep saying OP is using Warlock? They're not, at least rn. They provided the classes currently considered and even a link to the specific page they pulled it from, which was the master list for a series of threads designed to improve upon the original tier list. Similarly, Hexblade gets ranked in T5 by those discussions. The list is kind of arbitrary and restrictive from a world building perspective, but the point of the discussion is to take those restrictions and build a cohesive setting.

[Falontani]

Your race suggestions are interesting, but aren't daelkyr really specific to the cosmology of eberron?

Daelkyr are from Xoriat, the Plane of Madness. If your setting doesn't possess such a plane then Daelkyr are easily moved to a plane of chaos or similar. There are many other creatures that could fit the daelkyr's bill in creating the half blood, and lore of the race is easily enough changed. Tieflings have +1 la, and I personally thought it would be more thematic to keep them as a more infernal presence. You could also go for diabolus if you wanted to, but again la +1, while the half blood has the extraplanar origins while being la +0, and are a fun race.

[Nifft]

Daelkyr are from Xoriat, the Plane of Madness. If your setting doesn't possess such a plane then Daelkyr are easily moved to a plane of chaos or similar.

Yeah, this.

Xoriat is described in similar terms as the Far Realms, and many denizens overlap, so it's easy to substitute if you wish.

[Troacctid]

What about rilkan + skarn? The ties to incarnum and the story of a lost progenitor race seem like they would be interesting, and mechanically, they provide more options for characters using Strength or Dexterity. I notice the former is currently a bit lacking in options.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
As far as geography, I sort of gave the roughest notion of what sorts of terrain are where in post #29. But I'm up for any additional ideas on the topic or even a much smaller more detailed region if anyone's been playing around with such a thing.

I’ve been thinking about the geography from a Mesopotamian perspective, since that’s how I’ve been envisioning much of the setting.

Mesopotamia during the age of the early city-states was much wetter than it is today, so I’m thinking of a mythical version of Mesopotamia which is intersected by rivers and marshlands, leading to a lush and productive landscape. Each city-state is surrounded by a broad halo of farms, worked by people who live inside the city, with extensive canal systems reaching across the landscape. Many of the city-states have one or more larger canals running through the city from nearby rivers, and much of the traffic and commerce is carried by barges and small sailing boats rather than on roads.

There are several dozen city-states in a relatively flat region, surrounded by high mountains in a broad northern arc; the mountains are home to clans of “wild men,” uncivilized and unpredictable. Several trade routes follow high mountain passes to farther lands beyond the mountains, but the caravans are under constant risk of attack from the wild men and worse creatures living in the mountains.

To the south of the civilized plain is a region of arid tablelands, inhabited by nomadic pastoralists who sometimes trade with the city-states and sometimes raid them. Beyond their realm is hard desert, a region of wadis and salt flats where desert tribes zealously control their hidden oases. Farther still are other realms, lands of distant rumor from which a trickle of fine trade goods reaches back through the desert.

And that's the starting point I had in mind. This keeps the basic Mesopotamian flavor that I’d been working from, while still allowing for other options.

[LurkytheDwarf]

I’ve been thinking about the geography from a Mesopotamian perspective, since that’s how I’ve been envisioning much of the setting.

Mesopotamia during the age of the early city-states was much wetter than it is today, so I’m thinking of a mythical version of Mesopotamia which is intersected by rivers and marshlands, leading to a lush and productive landscape. Each city-state is surrounded by a broad halo of farms, worked by people who live inside the city, with extensive canal systems reaching across the landscape. Many of the city-states have one or more larger canals running through the city from nearby rivers, and much of the traffic and commerce is carried by barges and small sailing boats rather than on roads.

There are several dozen city-states in a relatively flat region, surrounded by high mountains in a broad northern arc; the mountains are home to clans of “wild men,” uncivilized and unpredictable. Several trade routes follow high mountain passes to farther lands beyond the mountains, but the caravans are under constant risk of attack from the wild men and worse creatures living in the mountains.

To the south of the civilized plain is a region of arid tablelands, inhabited by nomadic pastoralists who sometimes trade with the city-states and sometimes raid them. Beyond their realm is hard desert, a region of wadis and salt flats where desert tribes zealously control their hidden oases. Farther still are other realms, lands of distant rumor from which a trickle of fine trade goods reaches back through the desert.

And that's the starting point I had in mind. This keeps the basic Mesopotamian flavor that I’d been working from, while still allowing for other options.

So something more like this:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/87/ed/2087ed51776b239459c03eedfb0643e3.jpg
Though that would be more of an outpost near the edge of the region than a full city-state.

Following through with the Inner Sea being pretty much the Mediterranian, then this area could be just east of that. Beyond the arc of northern mountains would by the snowy faux European continent and beyond the tablelands into the south/southwest would be the deserts and crags and oases. The Random Encounter chart I made would be for the deserts but there are a couple of entries that could provide overlap. For example, I was thinking the Skulk would be a nuisance in any region that held ruins of the fallen ancient empire (so like the Inner Sea, the North, South, and this Fertile Crescent area). Others though, maybe because what you've described seems more grounded, feel like they might be out of place. I'd be interested in any enemy selections which you've thought up.


Well, Asherati seem obvious as you already mention them. I like desert elves and one of my own settings uses them as the default, rather than having elves be native forest dwellers.

Yes, by the end of my 3.5 DMing I had Snow Elves (+2 Dex, -2 Cha) as my default elven race to make them somewhat more appealing while trying to avoid races which increased spellcasting ability scores.


Going through a list of +0 LA 0 RHD races;

Asherati - Desert dwelling humanoids that can be a lamp and can swim through sand.

Daelkyr Half-Blood - Hear me out; they can be rare, and be the 'tiefling' of the setting. Distrusted, must hide among others, don't belong. You can easily keep their lore with what it seems to be your going for, or change it up a bit.

Duskling - These can be the remnants of the old fey. The Faerie Courts are either gone, missing, or have ceased caring for the world, so the old noble fey are gone, leaving the good fey scattered and rare, while the Unseelie Court has probably won, making the powerful humanoid fey creatures left almost certainly evil, dark, and corruptors. Interestingly enough they also are Incarnum users, which makes sense with them having some of the "old blood"

Dwarf: I think the kinds of dwarves should match their dwellings, but you could easily have it be
Badlands/Desert Dwarf - The most prolific dwarves remaining
Dream Dwarf - Rare, and probably one to two per dwarven community. Probably not a true breed of dwarf, but just a genetic offbreed type deal. IDK that sounds worse than what I am trying to go for...

Elf: I am partial towards the Painted Elf and Wood Elf here. Wood Elves are probably the few creatures that regularly visit the deep wilds, and any adventurers would probably seek out the Wood Elves before delving into the deep wilds themselves.

Gnome: Honestly these guys probably are rare and old. I would expect since many of them are among the longest lived of races these are where the Spellthieves are left. I would use Arctic/Ice Gnomes or Whisper Gnomes.

Goblin: I wouldn't count these guys out. They probably directly compete with halflings for territory. Easily shift their alignment as a whole towards neutral like the other civilized races. I suggest: Vril, Jungle Goblins, and Air Goblins, with Jungle Goblins being the most prominent.

Halflings: I think the halflings left should be: Jungle Halflings (directly competing with the Jungle Goblins, and occasionally alongside them), Ghostwise Halflings, and Jerren. Having the Jerren be the most prolific of the halflings would make halflings as a whole be mostly untrusted, and more likely to become cultists (Shadowcasters). (I keep saying untrusted, but one of the biggest things to keep society down is not trusting one another. They gotta work together, but if they work too well together, then society will begin to rebuild after whatever caused the old world to cease.)

Humans: Obviously humans are still around. If there is ever a time that the humans fail to adapt to whatever is left, then it is undoubtedly rare that the other races can. I suggest the following: Human (obviously), Azurin (Probably an upper caste of Incarnate Humans that push the other humans down as often as they bring them up.), Mongrelfolk (because they are human? I guess?) but actually because Mongrelfolk are supposed to be both the "don't interbreed too much" and the "don't inbreed" race; whatever catastrophe happened, Mongrelfolk will probably arise, and finally Extraminar, for the untrustworthy version, and the version that probably works well with the setting (as I am seeing it).

Shifter - probably make them actually what happens when an afflicted lycanthrope breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a human, when a shifter breeds with a shifter, etc. Less trusted due to lycanthropes being 'evil'.

Tibbit - Perhaps the mages of old were truly powerful enough to have humanoids as familiars, maybe not. But if one thing is true, its that Tibbits are the descendants of the familiars that the powerful mages of old possessed. You could probably create variants for most of the normal familiar types, but I'd keep it as just Cat, and maybe Rat.

Finally: This one may mesh with your setting, it may not. Warforged. If you do have them, then they were definitely made by the old mages, and mostly run down, and in disrepair. Biologically immortal, but there is a catch, they can go insane if they don't have something to do. While exploring ruins these guys can be a common enemy. I would suggest adding the Quorcraft template to any warforged that has gone insane. For player characters of the warforged, they should definitely be very very old creatures and hard to scrounge up parts to repair, possibly starting up adventuring specifically to find parts. Perhaps they remember a long past war that they were created to fight in. Perhaps that they fought for the mages, and they lost. The warforged left in society were either servants, or renegades in that war. Those that fled rather than being slaughtered by whatever ancient enemy they fought. If it isn't known what the enemy was, make it so that the warforged weren't able to comprehend what they were fighting against. If it is known, then they definitely can know.


What about rilkan + skarn? The ties to incarnum and the story of a lost progenitor race seem like they would be interesting, and mechanically, they provide more options for characters using Strength or Dexterity. I notice the former is currently a bit lacking in options.

Funnily enough, Delkyr Half-Bloods were already on my list of possibles as to go with the Shadow Plane feel to the wilds, there is also a Far Realm undercurrent to some of the creatures I've been selecting. So I'm on board with that.

My first instinct with this setting was to try and use as many different human-like races as possible: Human, Azurin, Rilkan, Skarn, Asharati, and maybe Shifters and Neanderthals. And steer clear of the classic Tolkien-esk races altogether: Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings, etc. Perhaps Mongrelfolk are all that remains of these races, or maybe in an interesting twist (in the vein of Warhammer 40,000's Necrons) would be that to escape a cataclysm the last of their races sealed their spirits in Warforged, some of which persist to modern times. Though just being living constructs created by the old wizards is a classic, and I like the Quorcraft template idea.

Dusklings do fill the Fey/forest people angle commonly attributed to elves and perhaps are the eldest race left, hiding in their extraplanar Incarnum pockets while the cataclysm which claimed the other older races did its thing.

That does leave the fact that there are no races enhancing mental attributes but that never bothered me. Not having a small race is a problem, so perhaps goblins or halflings or gnomes survived—but I will admit I've seen enough Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes to last me a lifetime. In fact, I'd be willing to go without basic humans as well, and in their place just using Azurins and say Illumians (perhaps they are the race created by the wizards of old) with Delkyr Half-Bloods being tainted by the creeping Far Realm which snuffs out their inherent magic (Essentia/Sigils).

I'm open to more suggestions, especially about the best small race to incorporate. Also, I don't think we're going to come to a grand unified PC race list. I would prefer to have a couple examples to give people an idea of the different directions you could go with this setting.

[Troacctid]

If I could only pick one small race, it would be one of the various halfling variants. I think shoal halfling could use more love.

If you want to include at least one race for each mental ability, I'd look at arcane gnome, spellscale, and khepri, and then add on the complacent human variant (+2 to an ability score of your choice, no other racial traits) for a little extra variety.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
In fact, I'd be willing to go without basic humans as well….

I would hope that baseline humans would be available somewhere in the setting. I’ve been assuming they’re the ones inhabiting the city-states as I’ve described them, perhaps with a few other races mixed in. And I could see a city-state or two built primarily by dwarves, perhaps closer to the mountains where stone is easier to come by.


Originally Posted by LurkytheDwarf
Not having a small race is a problem, so perhaps goblins or halflings or gnomes survived—but I will admit I've seen enough Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes to last me a lifetime.

You could just limit it to the baseline halfling, which is innocuous enough. I mentioned above that halflings could probably survive in marginal areas where larger humanoids would have difficulty getting enough food, and I’ve been thinking they’d fit into the city-states easily enough.

As for other races, I feel like vanara could work as travelers and traders from some distant land, perhaps a common sight among caravans and in the larger and more cosmopolitan city-states. I like the overall concept of including Neanderthals, but I’ve always hated the 3.5 version, which is a cartoonish caricature at best. Assuming a better version could be found, Neanderthals would be at home in the highest mountains as well as in the snowy lands much farther north.

And while they might not necessarily be foes, goliaths do have an ancient-giant-race feel to them, and they would work well for some of the mountain tribes.

.

[False God]

As a thought experiment, I've been looking at the revised tiers list (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?600635-Why-each-class-is-in-its-tier-2019-update!)and been thinking about what such a setting would look like using only one tier for all the available classes. Tier 4 (minus Dragon magazine and UA generic classes) inspired me the most, so I went with that.

Classes: Incarnate, Shadowcaster, Rogue, Barbarian, Scout, Spelltheif, Paladin, Ranger, Ninja, Adept, Fighter, Marshal

Half the iconic four are present (Fighter, Rogue) which points me in the direction of a setting more in the Sword and Sorcery genre like that of Lankhmar and Conan: episodic adventures, no world-threatening dangers, exotic locals, Arabian Nights, magical monsters and evil sorcerers.

A full third of the classes are either primitive or at least wilderness-based (Adept, Barbarian, Ranger, Scout). So the world should probably be very wild with vast tracks of untamed lands. Civilization tends to be very tightly concentrated, Points of Light–style city-states/kingdoms (something akin to that described in The Howling Emptiness of the World of Greyhawk (http://hillcantons.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-howling-emptiness-of-world-of.html) by the Hill Cantons blog). Lone rangers tirelessly patrol the borders, warning towns of impending dangers, and tracking down missing caravans. Only rugged barbarian tribes dare dwell far out in the wilderness, aided by their wise women and witchdoctors (Adepts).

There's also a warfare theme in the classes as well (Marshal, Scout, Ninja). So war is common enough between the Points of Light that there are many former army commanders and scouts (very necessary to aid troops moving from one kingdom to another through the harsh wilds safely). I'm inclined to believe its the Points of Light at war and not monstrous humanoid hordes due to the presence of the Ninjas, which owes itself to an intense layer of intrigue, assassination, and espionage between sophisticated powers. Maybe the kingdoms aren't kingdoms but noble houses/clans/guilds seeking to protect their rice farms and poppy fields and steal those of their neighbors.
Yeah, I think you're on the right path, you're basically dealing with a very "real" ancient world, with a touch of magic. Feudal kingdoms, warring nations, long travel across the world, distant and unexplored lands, strange and unknown (but not incredibly magical) peoples and creatures.


I'm sorta at a loss for Paladins because at first, this doesn't seem like a world which has many gods, or where the gods are very present. The divine magic either comes from communing with nature (Rangers) or some sort of secret traditions passed down through generation (Adepts). I assume they would be the rarest class, as the setting outlined above doesn't necessarily feel like it tolerates traditional heroes very well—the barbarians too chaotic and the ninja-employing nobles too evil.

What are your thoughts on how to incorporate the Paladin? Do you have any ideas which expand on those outlined above? Or when you look at this list of classes does a completely different setting come to mind?
You could take a more eastern religion approach and deal with small and multifarious gods. I wouldn't take away the paladins powers if they're away from said god's domain, but a paladin may look more like your world's druid. Your gods may be much smaller and much more interactive with the players, powerful beings within their realm (think very limited, a specific river, a certain forest or grove), actively guiding them, giving them quests, punishing and rewarding them.

[Aniikinis]

My first instinct with this setting was to try and use as many different human-like races as possible: Human, Azurin, Rilkan, Skarn, Asharati, and maybe Shifters and Neanderthals. And steer clear of the classic Tolkien-esk races altogether: Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Halflings, etc. Perhaps Mongrelfolk are all that remains of these races, or maybe in an interesting twist (in the vein of Warhammer 40,000's Necrons) would be that to escape a cataclysm the last of their races sealed their spirits in Warforged, some of which persist to modern times. Though just being living constructs created by the old wizards is a classic, and I like the Quorcraft template idea.

Dusklings do fill the Fey/forest people angle commonly attributed to elves and perhaps are the eldest race left, hiding in their extraplanar Incarnum pockets while the cataclysm which claimed the other older races did its thing.

That does leave the fact that there are no races enhancing mental attributes but that never bothered me. Not having a small race is a problem, so perhaps goblins or halflings or gnomes survived—but I will admit I've seen enough Strongheart Halflings and Whisper Gnomes to last me a lifetime. In fact, I'd be willing to go without basic humans as well, and in their place just using Azurins and say Illumians (perhaps they are the race created by the wizards of old) with Delkyr Half-Bloods being tainted by the creeping Far Realm which snuffs out their inherent magic (Essentia/Sigils).

I'm open to more suggestions, especially about the best small race to incorporate. Also, I don't think we're going to come to a grand unified PC race list. I would prefer to have a couple examples to give people an idea of the different directions you could go with this setting.

Most of these come from Dragon Magazine but...
You could also use Ghost Elves as a race of lingering elven spirits from before the cataclysm. Too attached to their lands to fully pass on, just to see everything vanish before their eyes yet be unable to find true peace.
There could also be possible links to the Adu'Jas in even older ruins than those that come from the elves and them, possibly giving an even more ancient feel to the world.
Glimmerfolk could act as a counterpart to the Dusklings, a sort of behind the scenes territorial war raging between dark and light sparked by a prank or joke gone too far with the "aid" of some third party
Tibbits could fit the small sized race pretty well, also having another way to avoid detection and slip into city-states fairly unnoticed

[Falontani]

Jungle Halfling, jerran, or tibbit would be my small race suggestions. I really like the idea of goblins vs jungle halflings. I wouldn't get rid of humans, but you can easily add several "variant" humans by having several feats be much more common.

An example would be a large number of humans that have touch of summoning as their bonus feat.

[Palanan]

We've had a number of races proposed, but the OP evidently prefers not to establish a single master list.

So, what would be some interesting suites of races that might create distinctive variants of the setting? For instance, Falontani mentioned jungle halflings. What other races would work for a rainforest-themed version of this setting?

[Luccan]

We've had a number of races proposed, but the OP evidently prefers not to establish a single master list.

So, what would be some interesting suites of races that might create distinctive variants of the setting? For instance, Falontani mentioned jungle halflings. What other races would work for a rainforest-themed version of this setting?

Vanara come to mind pretty much immediately, particularly for being LA +0 jungle dwellers that aren't just a subrace. 3.5 Dragon update gets rid of the Wisdom and Int bonus (and I think the Strength penalty), so no worries there

[Palanan]

By this point, we’ve worked out what classes would be appropriate for the OP’s concept, and we have a wide range of races that could be available.

So, what sorts of campaigns and encounters would fit into this setting?

[Curelomosaurus]

It seems to me that combining a HoB-style military campaign with intrigue and politics would fit this world well, although a horror campaign based around evil incarnates/shadowcasters/spellthieves would work well, too.

[lylsyly]

By fluff, Hobgoblins are evil, highly miltarystic and expansioninstic......

A large clan just moved into the neighborhood.....

[thorr-kan]

I'm late to the party, as usual, but this has been an interesting thread. I'm always up for reading how a DM tailors the rules to make their campaign work.

As an aside, the World-Building forum may have some threads of interest for brainstorming. In particular, Yora has put a lot of thought into "sword-and-sorcery" style settings with coherent setting metaphysics. They lean 5E these days, but they're interesting reading. In particular, I like the following three:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?608669-Bronze-Scavengers-in-Fallen-Kingdoms-and-Eldritch-Forests
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?582573-Under-the-Moons-of-Kaendor-A-Wilderness-of-90s-Sword-amp-Sorcery-(D-amp-D-5th-Ed-E6)
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?566413-Fallen-City-States-of-the-Coastal-Forests-of-Kaendor

With adepts being the major divine spellcasters, traditional D&D deities may not be the way to go. I've often felt some of the Eberron religions could be poached wholesale for use in a homebrew world. From the Campaign Setting book, the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, and the Cults of the Dragon Below give you enough variety for as many competing sects and dogmas as you like.

Expanding to other Eberron supplements, the Path of Inspiration and the Path of Light both have psionic tie-ins. Include the Dreaming Dark for creepy, private extradimensional threats.

If including elves/fey and ancestor worship, the Undying Court and the Spirits of the Past can serve your needs.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by thorr-kan
As an aside, the World-Building forum may have some threads of interest for brainstorming. In particular, Yora has put a lot of thought into "sword-and-sorcery" style settings with coherent setting metaphysics.

Thanks for the reminder about Yora's excellent Bronze Age thread. I came across it a while ago and meant to post some thoughts there.

It looks like his campaign has started, though following a very different take from the setting ideas floated in this thread.

.

[thorr-kan]

Thanks for the reminder about Yora's excellent Bronze Age thread. I came across it a while ago and meant to post some thoughts there.

It looks like his campaign has started, though following a very different take from the setting ideas floated in this thread.I think it's a different campaign than the one discussed previously.

Though if it's the same, I also wouldn't be surprised. Theory and execution in a campaign seem to often have only a passing knowledge of each other...

[thorr-kan]

And if Adepts are going to be a primary spellcaster, be aware of their alternate class features. There aren't many, but there are a few.

Familiar – Dragon 280, p60 - Alternative starting familiars. (3.0ED)

Familiar – Dragon 323, p88 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)

Familiar – Dragon 341, p96 - Specialist familiars. (3.5ED)

Familiar - Dragon 348, p88 - Unfamiliar territory: focus caster; (arcane reabsorbtion isn't valid as it specifically calls out arcane spells). (3.5ED)

Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 – Shadow Kinship: The goblins of Grodd are not harmed by the touch of the creatures called shadows. Furthermore, an adept of Grodd can rebuke or command shadows as a cleric of the same level. (3.0ED)

Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p86 - The Iron One: possibly an aspect of a goblin deity. Internet speculation has it being Maglubiyet, the god of goblins and hobgoblins. Domains are Chaos, Destruction, Evil, Trickery.

Goblin of Grodd - Into the Dragon's Lair, p90-91 – Alternate spell list. (3.0ED)

Kobold - Races of the Dragon, p48 - Alternate spell list: Swap animal trance and daylight with lesser restoration and create food & water, respectively. (3.5ED)

More Spells for Adepts sidebar - Masters of the Wild, p81 - Additional spells from Defenders of the Faith, Masters of the Wild, Tome and Blood. (3.0ED)

Religious Adept – Eberron Campaign Setting, p256 – Add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)

Religious Urban Adept – Sharn: City of Towers, p167 – Alternate spell list, add ability to choose a domain from the god worshipped; add domain spells to spell list and gain domain power, treating adept level as cleric level. (3.5ED)

Urban Adept – Sharn: City of Towers, p167 – Alternate spell list. (3.5ED)

There have also been a few spells added to the adept's spell list over the years.

Additional Spells - (CC-Complete Champion)
2 - Bewildering Substitution - CC, p116
2 - Bewildering Visions - CC, p116
2 - Interfaith Blessing - CC, p123
4 - Lesser Spell Turning - Mintiper's Chapbook Part 10 (http://archive.wizards.com/dnd/artic...mc/mc20020130a)
5 - Bewildering Mischance - CC, p116


eTools Adept Spell List:
1 - restful slumber - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - dream walk - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - manifest desire - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
4 - manifest nighmare - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat
5 - dreaming puppet - HH - Improved Oneiromancy feat

5 - call forth the beast - HH - corrupt spell


Lords of Madness, and many online adept spell lists:
2 - invoke the cerulean sign - LOM - "its magic is nearly universal and can be mastered by all spellcasting classes"


More Spells for Adepts sidebar, Masters of the Wild, p81 (DotF-Defenders of the Faith, MotW-Masters of the Wild, TaB-Tome and Blood):
0 - dawn (MotW) - SpC, p59
1 - hawkeye (MotW) - SpC, p110
1 - lesser cold orb (TaB) - SpC, p151, (orb of cold, lesser)
1 - scarecrow (MotW) -
2 - choke (TaB) -
2 - decomposition (MotW) - SpC, p61
2 - owl's wisdom (TaB) - PH, p259
3 - beastmask (DotF) -
3 - embrace the wild (MotW) - SpC, p79
3 - enhance familiar (TaB) - SpC, p82
4 - false bravado (MotW) -
4 - languor (MotW) - SpC, p130
4 - weather eye (DotF) - SpC, p238
5 - big sky (MotW) -
5 - ghostform (TaB) - SpC, p103


Any prepared spellcaster who meets the alignment requirements:
sanctified spells - BoED
corrupt spells - BoVD, HH - (see call forth the beast, above)

[Palanan]

That's a great resource for filling out the adept, thanks for including those.



Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but with a party of T4 or below, would encounters need to be modified to avoid steamrolling them?

[Dr_Dinosaur]

This kind of setting seems perfect for e6 or e10 for exactly that reason. Also more humanoid enemies

[thorr-kan]

That's a great resource for filling out the adept, thanks for including those.

Also, I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but with a party of T4 or below, would encounters need to be modified to avoid steamrolling them?
Glad to be of help.

I don't think you'll need to modify encounters, if the rules for the PCs apply to the NPCs.