Episode 9: Duel of the Fates Script [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Iskar Jarak

2020-05-23, 12:05 PM

This a summary of a draft of the script for Tervorrow’s Duel of the Fates, the original conception of Episode 9. It isn’t official (it got leaked online a while back), but I do think this is the real deal. Let me preface this by saying that it’s very difficult to write a good screenplay. It probably wasn’t too difficult to write this.

“The iron grip of the FIRST ORDER has spread to the farthest reaches of the galaxy. Only a few scattered planets remain unoccupied. Traitorous acts are punishable by death. Determined to suffocate a growing unrest, Supreme Leader KYLO REN has silenced all communication between neighbouring systems. Led by GENERAL LEIA ORGANA, the Resistance has planned a secret mission to prevent their annihilation and forge a path to freedom...”

(Aside: It’s consistently established that Duel of the Fates is quite a few years after The Last Jedi.) We kick off with an action scene at Kuat Drive Shipyards with our main cast. They try and blow up a fuel shaft. The Imperials’ safeguards stop them and they start to swarm our heroes (including Rose) with Stormtroopers. Rey has a double lightsabre now. Finn recognises a Stormtrooper. Civilians block the incoming Stormtroopers and our heroes and Poe escape. Rey mindtricks the bridge crew of an Eclipse Destroyer and they fly off to the Resistance base. Rey and Poe make a great team. The Knights of Ren show up and execute the admiral in charge. There’s some lip-service to them having personalities, but they don’t really. Hattaska Ren is their darksabre wielding leader, Ott and Lorl Ren work as a duo and Jaedec Ren is “the rogue”.

On Coruscant, in its underbelly, we get a scene where a street kid throws a chunk of cement at a Stormtrooper patrol, then escapes. Hux’s big hologram presides over an execution of random-helpy-alien-from-the-last-scene by laser guillotine. The crowd is unhappy.

Hux and an assortment of alien warlords awkwardly exposit at each other for a bit. Rey is a symbol of hope, the Knights of Ren are hunting her down, Kylo’s after ancient knowledge.

On Mustafar, Kylo enters Vader’s castle. Luke haunts him. Their conversation isn’t too far from, “You’re a ghost.” “No, you.” Luke gets bored and wanders off. Kylo finds a Sith Holocron. It contains a message from Palps, who tells Vader to take Luke to his master’s master, Tor Valum (if Luke kills him). Midway through the message, the Holocron scans Kylo, the message starts to break up, and the holocron shoots red lightning into Kylo’s eyes. It gives Kylo Sith cancer and makes him ugly. (Kylo’s definitely going to die now.)

At the Resistance Base, the First Order bridge crew are arrested. Poe continues being a delightful maverick. I love Poe. He’s the best. The script tells me so. Leia points out that the Eclipse could be swarming with Imperials. Poe laughs it off. Poe’s casual disregard for the lives of everyone in the Resistance makes me laugh too. Finn and Rey talk. Rey feels burdened and still wants to redeem Kylo Ren.

Despite being otherwise empty, the Eclipse is loaded with Imperial weaponry. All the Resistance needs now is an army. The Ancient Jedi text helpfully talks about a pre-Old Republic Force-powered communications beacon that they can use to call for help without getting blocked by the First Order.

Rey’s in a Jedi dojo. She gets a vision of Kylo. He’s in worse shape than before. As everyone knows, the only treatment for Sith cancer is to get metal smelted onto your face. Kylo and Rey both get a vision of them fighting on the Boss-Fight Planet. Kylo kills Rey in the vision. Luke and Rey talk about Mortis, the planet in the vision: “It’s an ancient place. From a time before the Jedi, before the Sith. Two thrones, two powerful beings. One of darkness, the other of light. Together, they brought balance.” It’s also established that there’s a massive well of Force power on Mortis than Kylo must be prevented from reaching. Luke wants Rey to kill Kylo, presumably because he called him a ghost. Rey wants to ignore this crap. Kylo gets a new mask – it’s even cooler than Vader’s! (Or so the script tells us.)

Hux has been made a laughing stock at every turn, but now it’s time for Hux to be a real menace once again. In his office, he looks at an antique lightsabre “with envy” and then tries to use the Force. He tries to use the Force. He fails. He says, “Nnnnnnnggghhh...” Kylo shows up as a hologram and they just re-establish things we already know.

Poe gets to do the mission briefing. Because he’s the best. And I quote, “Leia smiles. He’s great.” I feel ill. Poe also gives us an, “as you know”. The First Order’s transmission blocker is located in their Capitol, which the Resistance lacks the manpower to assault so they’re going to activate the Force-beacon under the Jedi Temple. Finn and Rose are in charge of that. Rey doesn’t want to go. She apparently decided to go to Mortis while off-screen.
Poe and Rey talk. Poe’s going help Rey find Mortis. They’re in love with each other, but Rey feels like they can’t be together because of the Jedi code.

Huh. I just woke up next to a copy of Lobotomies: DIY and a bloody scalpel. I feel great. On with the summary.

Rose and Finn talk about saving Stormtroopers.

Kylo tells Vader’s mask that Vader allowed, “love to cloud your judgement,” and chucks it off a balcony.

Leia tells Rey that Kylo can’t be saved. She also says that Rey should get together with someone called “Poe”. Leia waffles about balance and says that Rey is “new.”

Just then the First Order arrives, with Hux on the Finaliser Destroyer. The Resistance escape aboard the Eclipse and Rey, Poe and Chewie escape on the Falcon. This Poe jerk steals Chewie’s seat. R2-D2, C-3P0, Finn and Rose escape on their own ship, but not before Rose says, “Tell me the odds. I like numbers.” The planet can’t withstand terrible dialogue of that magnitude and explodes. (It was either that or the Finaliser's superlaser.)
The Falcon is pursued by the Knights of Ren’s own ship through the planet’s debris before escaping to hyperspace. The Knights of Ren’s leader (in a glass electro-oxygen chamber with wires and whatnot) senses where they’re going.

Kylo lands on Tor Valum’s planet. He walks through the remains of an ancient battlefield. Tor Valum crawls out of a pile of junk. He seems to be really weird looking and extremely old. He’s like “That name [Darth Plagueis] means nothing to me.” Kylo pops his mask off again. His Sith cancer is even worse. Tor Valum talks about Mortis. The power there will allow Kylo to, “rule the galaxy without armies, without starships.” Even better, it’ll let Kylo fix his face. Tor Valum offers to teach Kylo how to steal the Living Force. Kylo kneels.

The Falcon lands on Bonadan to meet with Poe’s navigator friend who’ll help them find Mortis. Poe gives us some funny space racism. Poe neggs Rey into buying a sari. “Rey’s colourful sari gives her an exotic elegance we’ve never seen.” Rey and Poe bond while walking through the market. A stormtrooper heads towards them. Rey pulls Poe into a kiss to hide their faces and the stormtrooper walks on. Interesting. It seems Mr. Trevorrow is a time-traveller from the 1950s. The screenplay then reads: “He’s [Poe] never kissed a Jedi.” Rey pretends the kiss was purely to avoid the stormtrooper. Then everyone in a 500-metre radius starts vomiting uncontrollably. They go meet Poe’s friend. She spouts some vague nonsense and tops it off by saying that’s not even the only way things could play out.

Finn and Rose grapple their way into the Jedi Temple spire and slot some kyber crystals into the wall to make the beacon rise out of the floor.

We see Kylo drain the life from an animal, leaving it a husk. Tor Valum tells Kylo there hasn’t been enough fanservice yet (he's wrong) and sends him to fight Darth Vader in a vision cave.
Kylo’s impatient to go to Mortis. Tor Valum’s like, “nah.” Kylo force holds him, extracts the information he wants from his mind then Force drains him. Tor Valum dies. To quote Tor Valum earlier: “You threaten me with death. How amusing.” Tor Valum is now dead. He doesn’t come back in any capacity.

Rose repairs the beacon. It shoots a column of light into the sky. We get a montage of different planets receiving Leia’s message.

Kylo Ren uses the Force to stop the message. “The light in the sky halts. Stopped by an immoveable force.” (Trevorrow has heard of this Physics stuff, and he wants you to know it.)
This causes the beacon to explode.
Finn and Rose are attacked by TIE fighters. Rose totally falls to her death.

Rey and Poe are attacked by the Knights of Ren. Poe gets shot. This makes Rey angry for some reason. Rey kills Ott and Lorl Ren (she Force pulls one onto her lightsabre), Chewbacca kills the other one. Rey is disarmed by Hattaska. She recognises his mask from somewhere then electrocutes to death him with Force Lightning. “Hattaska Ren’s skull flashes within his helmet...”
Rey decides to go on alone and mind tricks Poe into leaving. Happily, Poe’s head has never had two thoughts in it before and it explodes. Unfortunately, it turns out that Poe’s head didn’t contain anything important and he flies off in the Falcon with Chewie and BB-8 anyway. Rey takes off in the Knights of Ren’s ship.

Finn ambushes a stormtrooper and tells him to rebel.

Hux is interrogating Rose. He attempts to use the Force on her. This is just sad.

Leia talks with Luke’s ghost and then Lando. She wants him to rally some ships together.

Street kid from earlier meets Finn and leads him to a camp of loads of escaped citizens. Finn gives the people a speech and they’re all like “Wow, we didn’t even think of that doing that before. Let’s go kill the First Order.”

Rey and Kylo are heading towards the Temple on Mortis. They both have Force visions of their pasts.

Finn and some rebels hijack an AT-MT. Finn shouts revolutionary stuff through a loudspeaker.
Hux dispatches “brutetroopers” to quell the rebellion. They’re mean mercenaries and kitted out in armour like Phasma.
Finn has a fight with a brutetrooper atop the AT-MT. The stormtrooper Finn spoke to earlier turns up to help, along with more stormtroopers.

Poe convinces Leia to join the attack on the First Order Capitol.

Kylo and Rey meet on Mortis. Rey tells us that her parents were hiding her from Kylo, and that Kylo and the Knights of Ren killed them. Presumably, they borrowed Trevorrow’s time machine to pull this off. Rey and Kylo fight.

Chewie is shunted off into an X-Wing with BB-8 while Poe flies the Falcon. Something seems amiss here, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. What ships do these characters normally fly? It only makes sense that Trevorrow gets to fly the Falcon, I suppose.

Standard action fare on Coruscant.
Leia’s in command of the Eclipse in a big spaceship battle above Coruscant.

Kylo takes his mask off again. Kylo blinds Rey with his lightsabre and then enters the temple, leaving Rey behind.
Rose – now loose in the Capitol – learns that it is actually a ship. This hadn’t been foreshadowed at all. She begins hacking its hyperdrive.

Things are going badly for the Resistance all-round. Chewie crash lands.

Rose requires something in R2-D2’s memory banks to hack the Capitol’s hyperdrive. R2-D2 catches a laser blast and dies. They transfer his memory drive to BB-8, who rolls off through the battle. C-3P0 refuses to leave R2-D2. Chewie hefts R2-D2’s corpse onto his back. Chewie gets hit multiple times, but keeps going.
Things continue to get worse for the Resistance.

Kylo reaches the well of power, but there’s nothing there. (The movie sure fooled us good. It told us repeatedly about this well, but all that was wrong. This is never explained.) Luke’s Force Ghost shows up for some gloating. Kylo forgets Luke is a ghost and attacks him. Trevorrow forgets that Luke is a ghost and Luke catches Kylo’s lightsabre with his hand. Luke disowns Kylo, then gives a heroic speech. We get a montage of our heroes and Poe. Everyone is inspired. Rey blindfolds herself and fights Kylo again. Rey says, “Our Masters were wrong. I will not deny my anger. And I will not reject my love.”

Lando shows up with thousands of smuggler ships. The First Order starts losing.
Rose finishes hacking the Capitol. Poe does some repulsive Poe stuff and devastates the First Order ground forces. The Capitol prepares to take off. “Hux realises the tragic truth. He lost the star wars.” Hux kills himself with his antique lightsabre. (Note that the script says that the First Order has still won if the Capitol isn't destroyed. Someone should have told Hux.)

Rey destroys Kylo’s lightsabre and a few fingers. Kylo remembers his ability to suck the Living Force from Rey and does that.

Leia talks to Kylo through the Force. He takes Rey’s hand and the Living Force flows back into her. Kylo and Rey lean against each other. Kylo tells Rey her last name – Solana – then dies.

Rose escapes the Capitol then reunites with Finn and Co. The Capitol flies into a star. “The impact is so massive, so galaxy-shaking, it’s visible for light years.” (Physics!)

Rey floats her way onto the “Astral Plane” and sees Luke, Yoda and Obi-Wan. We get that scene from Harry Potter where Rey gets a choice to return or remain. We don’t see Rey make her decision.

Finn Rose Poe and Chewie get medals. Leia repairs R2-D2 and he shows us a bunch of his memories. All from the Original Trilogy, naturally.
Poe and Chewie set off in the Falcon to find Rey.
Finn is telling stories to a bunch of Force-sensitive kids. Rose and BB-8 are still kicking around. Rey then just turns up on the horizon. The screenplay tells us that Rey will train a new generation of Jedi.

* * *

Well, it’s safe say that the real Sith cancer was Poe.
Rey’s parents’ story really did not need changed, especially not so clumsily. The ending to the Rey and Kylo storyline was stupid and pointless. I guess Luke and Tor Valum both decided to lie to the audience and their pupils about Mortis. Luke can even go there any time and check. Luke usurps Rey’s heroic speech moment and catches a lightsabre. That’s just bad. Then Rey loses again anyway when Kylo does something he should just have opened with. Kylo’s redemption is sudden and unearned. The ending proper is also messy and stupid. The “balance” bit is just something characters talk about. You could remove that dialogue and nothing would change. I don’t care for this kind of tacked-on, only-exists-in-dialogue conflict at all. Rey’s choice on the Astral Plane is forced and confusing.

The villains are extremely weak in this script. Hux is somehow even more of an embarrassment than before. Kylo spends way too much time taking his mask on and off. The whole Sith Cancer thing was completely unnecessary, as were Hux’s efforts at using the Force.
You can’t have a character like Tor Valum and then have him be randomly and easily killed. No Sith ever thought of offing Tor Valum before?
Palp’s Sith Holocron security system was... lacking. In every way. Vader's "castle" being on Mustafar is... a thing.

Some aspects are far better than what we got. It actually gives most of its cast something to do. Rey and Kylo wander off to do their own stupid thing that doesn’t matter, but I don’t think it’s that much worse than what they actually did in Rise of Skywalker. Rey’s arc is kind of a wreck in both scripts. Rather than turning into Han Solo, Poe turns into a hideous Mary Sue, but that’s nothing that cutting him out of every scene can’t fix. Chewie, Finn and Rose are treated way better here than in Rise of Skywalker and actually do things. Coruscant is a way more interesting location than Planet Strobe-Light. There’s also a lot less time wasted on fake-out deaths, punching the Last Jedi, and incredibly stupid and boring MacGuffins and their attendant exposition. If I was writing Episode 9, I’d hurl the entirety of Abram’s script into a fire, but I’d keep elements of this one.

Fyraltari

2020-05-23, 12:24 PM

laser guillotine.

This clearly was a masterpiece and its loss the greatest tragedy of our times.

Saph

2020-05-23, 01:08 PM

The villains are extremely weak in this script. Hux is somehow even more of an embarrassment than before.

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

Peelee

2020-05-23, 01:15 PM

laser guillotine.This clearly was a masterpiece and its loss the greatest tragedy of our times.
https://media.giphy.com/media/7LAqMVFxOGPAc/giphy.gif

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.
You should really review The Rise of Skywalker. Though for the sake of your sanity I also hope you never do.

Fyraltari

2020-05-23, 01:34 PM

Iskar Jarak

2020-05-23, 01:35 PM

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

It really shouldn't have been possible. Hux sits in his office and tries to use the Force until he's red in the face. There's nothing special about that day. We can only assume he tries this every single day. Hux -- knowing full well he can't use the Force at all -- then tries to interrogate someone using the Force. It is so very sad.

I'm guessing Hux -- who is very blatantly a fascist -- being depicted as a buffoon is for commentary on stuff.There was no way to recover from the previous episodes, so I guess Trevorrow decided to go all out. That's fine. Fortunately, we have a menacing Sith dude in the form of Kylo Ren to really threaten... oh. Who can antagonise our heroes effectively? Don't worry, we still have Snoke's top half.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-23, 01:56 PM

NotASpiderSwarm

2020-05-23, 02:07 PM

I don't utterly hate this. It's not good, but it's a first draft. There's a lot of problems, but you can see the bones of a plot, individual character arcs, etc, which is more than the final version of 9 had.

(Still takes time to completely ignore the Ep 8 answer about Rey's parents in favor of something much worse)

Yora

2020-05-23, 02:09 PM

They couldn't title it "Episode 9: Lots of cool Fan Service"

Zevox

2020-05-23, 04:33 PM

You know, for all that's wrong with that script, at least it didn't randomly resurrect a long-dead villain with no explanation, then decide that Rey was secretly his granddaughter all along. In theory, Kylo learning from some other, much older Sith Lord is a better way to handle the villain's side of things. Kind of late in the third movie of a trilogy and shows what a mistake it was to off his previous mentor when they did, but still.

But yeah, wow, everything with Poe in there... what? Did they just decide to pair him with Rey because Finn and Rose were already a couple, and they couldn't have any of the main characters not have a romance subplot? Yeesh...

Iskar Jarak

2020-05-23, 04:46 PM

Yeah, I read this when it was first leaked.

Important point: this was the first draft of the script. First drafts are never intended to be released. There is a final draft of this that has not been leaked yet, where Kylo and Rey team up against Sollony Ren in the final battle.

There was a potentially good arc for Hux here. The thing is, he is unquestionably the most dangerous man in the FO. Starkiller and Hyperspace tracking completely devastate the FO's opposition, but his bosses keep abusing and belittling him anyway.

There was a good plot in Hux finally snapping under the abuse, usurping Kylo and coming into his own, but that's not what we got, in any script.

I didn't realise that this was the first draft. It's telling that it's a toss-up between a first draft and the ostensibly polished product of Rise of Skywalker. I won't be doing a more detailed comparison of their relative merits because I'm unwilling to watch Rise of Skywalker ever again.
I'm confident that Trevorrow could have produced something a lot better than Rise of Skywalker if he had been given the opportunity. I'm forgiving of some amusing first draft wonkiness (things like, "Tell me the odds. I like numbers," which you could reasonably assume would get replaced), but other things like the problems with Poe-Rey shouldn't exist at any stage.

In TLJ, Hux comes close to executing an unconscious Kylo, but he wakes up in the nick of time. The set-up is clearly there for conflict between Hux and Kylo. However, I don't think that Hux could hope to be the main villain; the opening scenes of TLJ saw to that. I never really got the sense that Hux was dangerous because of his personal qualities -- the danger Hux represents is because of his position in the First Order, and from what we've seen of Hux almost anyone could do his job.
That said, with the proper set-up, I'd really enjoy a Death of Stalin plotline where the First Order leaders scrabble for power while their empire falls apart (it would also give Snoke's death consequences).

Devonix

2020-05-24, 12:12 AM

I didn't realise that this was the first draft. It's telling that it's a toss-up between a first draft and the ostensibly polished product of Rise of Skywalker. I won't be doing a more detailed comparison of their relative merits because I'm unwilling to watch Rise of Skywalker ever again.
I'm confident that Trevorrow could have produced something a lot better than Rise of Skywalker if he had been given the opportunity. I'm forgiving of some amusing first draft wonkiness (things like, "Tell me the odds. I like numbers," which you could reasonably assume would get replaced), but other things like the problems with Poe-Rey shouldn't exist at any stage.

In TLJ, Hux comes close to executing an unconscious Kylo, but he wakes up in the nick of time. The set-up is clearly there for conflict between Hux and Kylo. However, I don't think that Hux could hope to be the main villain; the opening scenes of TLJ saw to that. I never really got the sense that Hux was dangerous because of his personal qualities -- the danger Hux represents is because of his position in the First Order, and from what we've seen of Hux almost anyone could do his job.
That said, with the proper set-up, I'd really enjoy a Death of Stalin plotline where the First Order leaders scrabble for power while their empire falls apart (it would also give Snoke's death consequences).

Hux was never cut out to be the main villain, but I'd say that was the point. Hux was being set up to be the Starscream to Kylo Ren's Megatron for the 3rd film.

Dienekes

2020-05-24, 12:37 AM

I'm not even sure that's possible, given how much of a joke he was in Episodes 7 and 8.

Writing decisions like how they chose to do Hux just genuinely confuse me. I mean, they had to know they were presenting him as completely unthreatening, right? Yet they still have him as an adversary over and over again as if he's supposed to be dangerous or something.

Hux like most of the Prequels left me thinking they were going to try and do something kinda neat about him. And just no. It doesn't go anywhere.

In both 7 and 8, it's Hux that accomplishes literally everything that the First Order succeeds at. Who runs the Trooper project? Hux. Who led the new Death Star? Hux. Who blew up the freaking Senate? Hux. Who had the plan to follow the Rebel Fleet through hyperspace? Hux. Who caught the heroes and bribed DJ to switch sides? Hux.

What does Snoke and Kylo do? Good question.

Quite frankly, he's the most successful Imperial Officer in all of the Star Wars movies.

But the dialogue keeps laughing at him. I was sure they were going to do something with that. But nope. He just gets blasted to make room for a supposedly more competent Officer character who doesn't actually do anything.

Zevox

2020-05-24, 02:17 AM

What does Snoke and Kylo do? Good question.
Snoke at least succeeds in tricking Rey into coming to him, and pulls Luke's location from her mind. It's basically the only thing anyone accomplished in The Last Jedi. It amounted to nothing and any indication of intelligence or competence on his part from it was undercut by the incredibly stupid way he died immediately thereafter, but still, that's more than I can say for anyone else in that film.

NotASpiderSwarm

2020-05-24, 09:30 AM

Snoke at least succeeds in tricking Rey into coming to him, and pulls Luke's location from her mind. It's basically the only thing anyone accomplished in The Last Jedi. It amounted to nothing and any indication of intelligence or competence on his part from it was undercut by the incredibly stupid way he died immediately thereafter, but still, that's more than I can say for anyone else in that film.
Snoke dies because he's overconfident and gets betrayed by another Sith, which is the primary way Sith die(Dooku, Palp, the Rule of 2 in general).

(From a meta perspective, Snoke dies because he's pointless. He's another JJAbrams mystery, a way to make fans run around going "who's Snoke, what can he do, where did he come from" without JJ ever having to come up with an answer. We have actual villains, all of whom have more interesting stuff happen on-screen, Snoke is just a random dude in a chair. So he dies, Kylo seizes power and becomes the main villain. Hux hates Kylo, which sets up an exploitable dynamic. And Kylo may be at the top of his power, but he also just got humiliated by Luke in front of everyone and has burned every bridge with Rey. He's at the top of his power AND the lowest point of his life. There's a lot more you can do with that than a cackling madman throwing lightning from his recliner. )

Peelee

2020-05-24, 10:42 AM

Snoke dies because he's overconfident and gets betrayed by another Sith, which is the primary way Sith die(Dooku, Palp, the Rule of 2 in general).

Not a Sith.

Fyraltari

2020-05-24, 10:43 AM

Not a Sith.

Sith in all but name of you don’t take RoS into account and if you do actually the Sithest Sith to ever Sith.

Peelee

2020-05-24, 10:48 AM

Sith in all but name of you don’t take RoS into account and if you do actually the Sithest Sith to ever Sith.

If you define "Sith" as "dark side Force user" or "force user who hates Jedi," then yes, all but name, but also restrictive definitions.

And with TROS, then yes, he should be the Sithiest Sith that ever Sithed. That would be the logical follow-up. And ****ing yet...

Fyraltari

2020-05-24, 11:01 AM

If you define "Sith" as "dark side Force user" or "force user who hates Jedi," then yes, all but name, but also restrictive definitions.
Look if they had given a name to the Force tradition Snoke alledgedly belonged to I’d use it but lacking that:

If it looks like a duck Sith...

And with TROS, then yes, he should be the Sithiest Sith that ever Sithed. That would be the logical follow-up. And ****ing yet...
No should about it, the film clearly states that he was Palpatine.

Peelee

2020-05-24, 11:19 AM

Look if they had given a name to the Force tradition Snoke alledgedly belonged to I’d use it but lacking that:

If it looks like a duck Sith...

No should about it, the film clearly states that he was Palpatine.

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke. And yet, canonically, Snoke is not a Sith. Snoke also creates Starkiller Base, an enormous investment in resources that are wily unnecessary when Palpatine already has a fleet a thousand times the size of the First Order's, each equipped with plenty destroying lasers, before Starkiller Base has even fired its first shot. It's almost as if the ST is a nonsensical mess bookended by Abrams doing nothing but throwing out fanservice and calling it a movie.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-24, 11:20 AM

Even without TROS, Snoke is technically not a Sith, but otherwise looks and acts exactly like one.

I think the canon that he's not a Sith is probably just to preserve the twist.

hungrycrow

2020-05-24, 11:26 AM

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke. And yet, canonically, Snoke is not a Sith. Snoke also creates Starkiller Base, an enormous investment in resources that are wily unnecessary when Palpatine already has a fleet a thousand times the size of the First Order's, each equipped with plenty destroying lasers, before Starkiller Base has even fired its first shot. It's almost as if the ST is a nonsensical mess bookended by Abrams doing nothing but throwing out fanservice and calling it a movie.

Snoke also tries to have Rey killed, who Palpatine needs as a host.

Vinyadan

2020-05-24, 11:32 AM

I thought that the film stated that Palpa created Snoke, complete with showing pieces of Snoke-like creatures in a vat in the laboratory where he was made. Was he puppeting him?

Fyraltari

2020-05-24, 11:34 AM

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke. And yet, canonically, Snoke is not a Sith. Snoke also creates Starkiller Base, an enormous investment in resources that are wily unnecessary when Palpatine already has a fleet a thousand times the size of the First Order's, each equipped with plenty destroying lasers, before Starkiller Base has even fired its first shot. It's almost as if the ST is a nonsensical mess bookended by Abrams doing nothing but throwing out fanservice and calling it a movie.

Yup, sounds like trying to to keep a constistent canon in a franchise that started its retcon addiction back in its second movie is a doomed endeavour.

Peelee

2020-05-24, 11:37 AM

Yup, sounds like trying to to keep a constistent canon in a franchise that started its retcon addiction back in its second movie is a doomed endeavour.

I agree, but trying would have at least been appreciated,and the very least Abrams could have done. Shame he didn't.

Zalabim

2020-05-24, 11:39 AM

No should about it, the film clearly states that he was Palpatine.

The film clearly states that Palpatine was Snoke.

You either have a different definition of clearly states or a different definition of was than I do. The film says Palpatine created Snoke. That's all. You might as well say Dr. Abraham Erskine was Captain America.

I thought that the film stated that Palpa created Snoke, complete with showing pieces of Snoke-like creatures in a vat in the laboratory where he was made. Was he puppeting him?
That is what the film stated. I don't know why people get it wrong. Was he puppeting Snoke? Probably not. There's too many actions that don't make sense if they come from Palpatine's direct control.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-24, 11:43 AM

A creation that slipped the leash? I think that actually works.

comicshorse

2020-05-24, 11:44 AM

A creation that slipped the leash? I think that actually works.

You would have though Palpatine would have learned that lesson the first time it happened

Fyraltari

2020-05-24, 11:48 AM

I agree, but trying would have at least been appreciated,and the very least Abrams could have done. Shame he didn't.
Definitely. But canonically, Snoke is a Sith so either don't correct that or stop correcting people who say Chirrut has Force powers.

You either have a different definition of clearly states or a different definition of was than I do. The film says Palpatine created Snoke. That's all. You might as well say Dr. Abraham Erskine was Captain America.

That is what the film stated. I don't know why people get it wrong. Was he puppeting Snoke? Probably not. There's too many actions that don't make sense if they come from Palpatine's direct control.

He sates, in Snoke's voice that he was every voice inside Kylo Ren's head, which includes Snoke's. Ergo he was Snoke.

Zevox

2020-05-24, 11:56 AM

Snoke dies because he's overconfident and gets betrayed by another Sith, which is the primary way Sith die(Dooku, Palp, the Rule of 2 in general).
If by "overconfident," you mean "stupidly closed his eyes to imagine Rey's death rather than actually watching it for no reason whatsoever, and then was deaf enough that he was unable to hear a lightsaber moving on the metal arm of his chair to aim at him," then yes, he died to being "overconfident."

Personally, that looks a lot more like contrived stupidity rooted in bad writing to me, but describe as seems fitting to you, I suppose.

(From a meta perspective, Snoke dies because he's pointless. He's another JJAbrams mystery, a way to make fans run around going "who's Snoke, what can he do, where did he come from" without JJ ever having to come up with an answer. We have actual villains, all of whom have more interesting stuff happen on-screen, Snoke is just a random dude in a chair. So he dies, Kylo seizes power and becomes the main villain. Hux hates Kylo, which sets up an exploitable dynamic. And Kylo may be at the top of his power, but he also just got humiliated by Luke in front of everyone and has burned every bridge with Rey. He's at the top of his power AND the lowest point of his life. There's a lot more you can do with that than a cackling madman throwing lightning from his recliner. )
I cannot agree with any of that. Kylo is a pathetic wannabe who fails at everything we ever see him try, including losing a 1-on-1 to Rey when she'd just found out she's force-sensitive and had never used a lightsaber before in her life; he's incapable of being the main villain. Hux was a generic military dude in TFA and was reduced to villain-side comic relief in TLJ, he's neither interesting nor capable of being the main villain. Snoke is a shallow Palpatine rip-off, but at least he displays an iota of competence and ability to threaten the heroes (well, Rey, anyway) on at least one occasion, which immediately puts him head and shoulders over those two. I don't think he's a good villain, but Kylo and Hux set the bar so low that he doesn't have to be in order to be better than them.

Dargaron

2020-05-24, 12:19 PM

Definitely. But canonically, Snoke is a Sith so either don't correct that or stop correcting people who say Chirrut has Force powers.

He sates, in Snoke's voice that he was every voice inside Kylo Ren's head, which includes Snoke's. Ergo he was Snoke.

He also starts that line in Darth Vader's voice, but we probably shouldn't assume that Palpatine was Darth Vader too. Palpatine has a clear flair for the dramatic, so taking his grandstanding literally is not necessarily the best option. He could also be talking metaphorically, in the sense that he created Snoke, ergo whatever Snoke told Kylo was coming (eventually) from Palpatine.

(Now, if there had been any scenes in the previous movies where we saw Kylo "communing" with "Darth Vader" and getting anything besides heavy breathing, that would've been a nice explanation for why the now-redeemed Anakin didn't drop in on his grandson and say "WTF man, I rejected the Sith in my final moments, why are you emulating bad me?")

Vinyadan

2020-05-24, 12:22 PM

I may have missed it, but when does Snoke talk inside Kylo's head?

Peelee

2020-05-24, 12:23 PM

I may have missed it, but when does Snoke talk inside Kylo's head?

Right before he tells the galaxy that he's back.

Fyraltari

2020-05-24, 12:34 PM

He also starts that line in Darth Vader's voice, but we probably shouldn't assume that Palpatine was Darth Vader too. Palpatine has a clear flair for the dramatic, so taking his grandstanding literally is not necessarily the best option. He could also be talking metaphorically, in the sense that he created Snoke, ergo whatever Snoke told Kylo was coming (eventually) from Palpatine.

(Now, if there had been any scenes in the previous movies where we saw Kylo "communing" with "Darth Vader" and getting anything besides heavy breathing, that would've been a nice explanation for why the now-redeemed Anakin didn't drop in on his grandson and say "WTF man, I rejected the Sith in my final moments, why are you emulating bad me?")

Except that we know Palpatine wasn't Vader and Kylo has never been around Vader.
Also why do you think they got James Earl Jones and Andy Serkis to voice-cameo in that scene for if Palps was being metaphorical?

Vinyadan

2020-05-24, 12:37 PM

Right before he tells the galaxy that he's back.

What film is that? I tried google, but I don't get anything, and prequel scripts are really hard to find.

Peelee

2020-05-24, 12:42 PM

What film is that? I tried google, but I don't get anything, and prequel scripts are really hard to find.

Sorry, I should have been less subtle. That was a jab at them not putting this huge plot point (Palpatine's announcement of his return) in anything other than an obscure Fortnite event.

Vinyadan

2020-05-24, 12:51 PM

That's even weirder than with the 2003 Clone Wars...

But was that Palpatine's or Snoke's voice? I mean, who was the actor -- Serkis or McDarmid?

Also, am I the only one who find that Snoke's name is inappropriate for a wannabe Dark Lord? It's even worse than Palpatine. Just call him Gorthomboron or something.

hungrycrow

2020-05-24, 01:08 PM

Vinyadan

2020-05-24, 01:12 PM

I was expecting DJ.

Fyraltari

2020-05-24, 01:23 PM

That's even weirder than with the 2003 Clone Wars...

But was that Palpatine's or Snoke's voice? I mean, who was the actor -- Serkis or McDarmid?

The fortnite message? McDarmid. Apparently, it was originally recorded for the movie but Abrams thought putting it in would hurt the pacing* so, logically, he put it in an unrelated video game.

*Hey look, I managed to type that with a straight face.

Peelee

2020-05-24, 01:32 PM

*Hey look, I managed to type that with a straight face.

I applaud your strength there.

Zevox

2020-05-24, 02:15 PM

As far as villains go, there was also captain phasma. I was convinced that she had inexplicably survived the Last Jedi and would be back for the finale. Of course, she doesn't really come off as much more competent than hux, and doesn't any have real story potential.

Honestly that's the biggest dropped ball of the sequels for me. Exploring the stormtroopers through Finn and Phasma could have been an intriguing and unique storyline, but nothing comes of it. Finn could have any other backstory and it would have changed almost nothing.
Yeah, Phasma was among the biggest wastes of potential in the sequels (along with Finn). Couldn't ever be the main villain, but as a secondary or tertiary one, could've been great. Good look with that chrome Stormtrooper armor, her position as a Stormtrooper Commander is a new one for the films to explore and should mean she has at least some level of competence, personal connection to the most interesting (theoretically, at least) of the heroes, and the potential for actually unique stories to be told about the two of them that don't rehash anything we've seen before.

And instead she barely got any screen time, lost easily in both films she was in, and is presumably dead after a short action scene in TLJ.

The Glyphstone

2020-05-24, 02:35 PM

The cloth-of-gold Hugh Hefner bathrobe didn't do much to help Snoke be taken seriously either.

Dire_Flumph

2020-05-24, 02:55 PM

The fortnite message? McDarmid. Apparently, it was originally recorded for the movie but Abrams thought putting it in would hurt the pacing* so, logically, he put it in an unrelated video game.

I feel that sequel Palpatine makes so much more sense if you make Seth MacFarlane's Palpatine from Robot Chicken canon.

"Ok, so my whole plan hinges on my lazy Grandaughter getting her butt in gear over here so I can force drain her or whatever, but I can't just send her an invite. Hmm...Alphonze, what are the kids into these days? I'll just casually leave a big return message there so she can put 2 and 2 together on her own. What do you think? Fortnite? What the hell is that?"

Peelee

2020-05-24, 05:57 PM

As far as villains go, there was also captain phasma. I was convinced that she had inexplicably survived the Last Jedi and would be back for the finale.

Yeah, Phasma was among the biggest wastes of potential in the sequels (along with Finn). Couldn't ever be the main villain, but as a secondary or tertiary one, could've been great. Good look with that chrome Stormtrooper armor, her position as a Stormtrooper Commander is a new one for the films to explore and should mean she has at least some level of competence, personal connection to the most interesting (theoretically, at least) of the heroes, and the potential for actually unique stories to be told about the two of them that don't rehash anything we've seen before.

And instead she barely got any screen time, lost easily in both films she was in, and is presumably dead after a short action scene in TLJ.
Given that she inexplicably survived Starkiller Base, I was fully expecting her to inexplicably survive the Supremacy and come back to the third film to confront Finn and get dumped in some hole, only to inexplicably survive for the EU. Actually kind of sad that didn't happen, if only because the fizzle that happened was about the only possibility that could have been worse. Just make her Murdoc, ya know?

The cloth-of-gold Hugh Hefner bathrobe didn't do much to help Snoke be taken seriously either.
Yeah, I have no idea whether to pin that on the costume designer or Abrams, but either way it was a weird decision.

Devonix

2020-05-24, 06:29 PM

I say that the gold robe fit perfectly with what he was going for with Snoke. Snoke wasn't a military leader, he was a cult leader like David Koresh or the Jonestown cult leader. He didn't know how his military was he didn't want competent people in charge he wanted sicophants and menials.

Vinyadan

2020-05-24, 06:35 PM

Back to Palpa making Snoke's voice... was Snoke's voice ever in Ben's head? I'm just trying to wrap my head around that scene. Is Palpa simply giving Ben a taste of his skill as a ventriloquist?

Devonix

2020-05-24, 06:41 PM

Back to Palpa making Snoke's voice... was Snoke's voice ever in Ben's head? I'm just trying to wrap my head around that scene. Is Palpa simply giving Ben a taste of his skill as a ventriloquist?

He's refering to Snoke corrupting and teaching Ben, in the same way that you have your parent's voice in your head.

Iskar Jarak

2020-05-25, 05:20 AM

I feel that sequel Palpatine makes so much more sense if you make Seth MacFarlane's Palpatine from Robot Chicken canon.

"Ok, so my whole plan hinges on my lazy Grandaughter getting her butt in gear over here so I can force drain her or whatever, but I can't just send her an invite. Hmm...Alphonze, what are the kids into these days? I'll just casually leave a big return message there so she can put 2 and 2 together on her own. What do you think? Fortnite? What the hell is that?"

Times are dire when Robot Chicken makes more sense than the original material (and is probably written with more care).

Given that she inexplicably survived Starkiller Base, I was fully expecting her to inexplicably survive the Supremacy and come back to the third film to confront Finn and get dumped in some hole, only to inexplicably survive for the EU. Actually kind of sad that didn't happen, if only because the fizzle that happened was about the only possibility that could have been worse. Just make her Murdoc, ya know?

A third Phasma appearance and underwhelming death would have been great. I still hope that Phasma wanders her way into more Star Wars movies to do her thing. She's officially dead, but both Darth Maul and Palpatine have shrugged off their original deaths so there's a chance.
I was optimistic that Phasma would apparate at some point in RoS; her death was something that happened in TLJ and I was hoping for another spiteful anti-scene.

Devonix

2020-05-25, 09:41 AM

The deleted scene had a death that seemed far more definitive, and also had the only case of a limb being cut off in the entire Sequel trilogy. I think they made him change it because they wanted an option to use her again in the third film. And changed it to a more ambiguous death.

GloatingSwine

2020-05-26, 05:53 AM

dancrilis

2020-05-26, 10:15 AM

Maul got chopped in half, which is pretty definitive, but it didn't stop him.

Maul was also more interesting ... despite having almost no lines or characterization.

The Glyphstone

2020-05-26, 10:27 AM

I guess he's the Boba Fett of the prequel trilogy, then?

dancrilis

2020-05-26, 11:17 AM

I guess he's the Boba Fett of the prequel trilogy, then?

Effectively.

But also (just to take the respective movies that introduced them):
Darth Maul apprentice to Darth Sidious, wants revenge against the Jedi, killed Qui-Gon Jinn, defeated by Obi-Wan Kenobi.
Captain Phasma, gave into all demands when threatened, achieved nothing, discarded as a joke.

Some people will of course want to know more about the second character then the first and find them more compelling - but I suspect that those people are a distinct minority.

Fyraltari

2020-05-26, 11:21 AM

I guess he's the Boba Fett of the prequel trilogy, then?

The Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy, meanwhile, is the ‘TRAITOR’ stormtrooper.

Darth Credence

2020-05-26, 11:42 AM

The Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy, meanwhile, is the ‘TRAITOR’ stormtrooper.

And that person should have been Phasma. It would have been so much better if that had been Phasma in that fight - it could have shown her skills as she beat the crap out of Finn, and how good the armor is if she survived a hit from Chewie's bowcaster (that is how the traitor guy went down, right?). Change nothing at all about the movie except that, and Phasma becomes a character worth caring about.

Dargaron

2020-05-26, 12:10 PM

And that person should have been Phasma. It would have been so much better if that had been Phasma in that fight - it could have shown her skills as she beat the crap out of Finn, and how good the armor is if she survived a hit from Chewie's bowcaster (that is how the traitor guy went down, right?). Change nothing at all about the movie except that, and Phasma becomes a character worth caring about.

I'm not sure I fully agree with that. It would've been better than what we got, but TR-8R is almost exactly what I'd want to see in sequel-era stormtroopers: there's a human element that's often lacking from OT stormtroopers (his exclamation conveys a very human feeling of betrayal), he's using specialized equipment to neutralize the hero's advantages (showing that regular storm troopers are trained in more than just blaster combat) and demonstrates that the Empire/First Order has less-than-lethal combat options, they just choose not to use them a lot of the time. In my opinion, regular storm troopers should have been made scary again, the same way they were introduced in the Tantive IV boarding in A New Hope.

Probably the first thing I would change about TFA is the opening assault on generic desert village #3 by having the stormtroopers open the engagement with flashbangs, riot shields and blasters set to stun to capture the entire defensive force for interrogation and "processing" (remember, they're fighting an insurgency: intel is more useful than corpses), and make Kylo Ren's establishing moment be him ordering the execution of the other prisoners for teh evulz - I mean, "for the Dark Side." That sets up the conflict between the ruthless yet practical military arm of the First Order (who would prefer to interrogate prisoners before killing them) and the Dark Side Mystic element, which places aesthetics and symbolic gestures over strict efficiency, but has access to undeniably powerful space!magic that keeps them useful.

Having Phasma as the "one competent storm trooper" in special armor undermines the regular storm troopers, who get further relegated to "joke" territory when you need to use the "special" ones to actually threaten the heroes (I had a similar problem with the Black storm troopers in Rogue One, although to a lesser extent because they weren't used until the very end).

Peelee

2020-05-26, 12:24 PM

I guess he's the Boba Fett of the prequel trilogy, then?
Nah; Fett was able to immediately deduce where the Falcon had gone, collected the bounty on Solo, stood up to Vader successfully, and then collected a second bounty on Solo from another party, all in a single movie. Fett was incredibly successful and was presented as a great threat to the heroes in ESB, he just went out in a silly way in ROTJ.

The Boba Fett of the sequel trilogy, meanwhile, is the ‘TRAITOR’ stormtrooper.
How so? That trooper jumped onscreen and was defeated within a few minutes.

And that person should have been Phasma. It would have been so much better if that had been Phasma in that fight - it could have shown her skills as she beat the crap out of Finn, and how good the armor is if she survived a hit from Chewie's bowcaster (that is how the traitor guy went down, right?). Change nothing at all about the movie except that, and Phasma becomes a character worth caring about.
Seconded.

Fyraltari

2020-05-26, 12:34 PM

How so? That trooper jumped onscreen and was defeated within a few minutes.

No personnality, a cool look that's unique but still trooper-ish, does a cool thing, dies stupidly and gets a devoted fanbase.

Peelee

2020-05-26, 12:54 PM

No personnality, a cool look that's unique but still trooper-ish, does a cool thing, dies stupidly and gets a devoted fanbase.

Fett's personality is ruthless and efficient, both of which come off in ESB. TR8R's personality is... angry? Fett's costume is unique. TR8R's costume is the same stormtrooper armor as all other stormtroopers. Fett one-ups the Empire in general and Vader in particular, and is able to contest Vader better than the Empire's own top officers. TR8R has an electric stick thingie.

Dies stupidly and devoted fanbase I'll grant you.

Dienekes

2020-05-26, 01:12 PM

Fett's personality is ruthless and efficient, both of which come off in ESB. TR8R's personality is... angry? Fett's costume is unique. TR8R's costume is the same stormtrooper armor as all other stormtroopers. Fett one-ups the Empire in general and Vader in particular, and is able to contest Vader better than the Empire's own top officers. TR8R has an electric stick thingie.

Dies stupidly and devoted fanbase I'll grant you.

Taking as someone who does not like either of them and does not undertsand the fanbase of both these characters at all. Here's my take.

Eh. Fett is ruthless and efficient. Is about on par with TR8R is angry and hurt by disloyalty among the troops. Neither are actual real personalities. They're just stock characteristics to get the scene to play out correctly. Neither side gets points on that one.

Fett's costume is definitely more unique than TR8R, though gotta be honest here. The use of the electro-mace was cooler in action than anything Fett actually does in any fight scene. Would have been cooler still if we got some choreography using that shield he just... throws away. I guess we can add "honorable duelist" to his list of pseudo-character traits? In either case Fett gets the point on that one. But it's closer than it should be at first glance.

Fett's shtick is actually his cunning more than anything else we see in the OT. Figuring out Han's trick took some thought. But that's about it. Nothing he really does after that point shows any real skill. Vader does the heavy lifting of the capture. In his fight scenes he accomplishes basically nothing. He talks back to Vader, which is full of implied badassery. Pity we don't ever see it.

On the other hand TR8R's only characteristic is fighting. He beat Finn and was going for the killing blow. You can make the case that his loathing of disloyalty stems from some hidden depths to the character. But that's slightly less meaningful than Fett's talking back to Vader. All implied with no substance.

Then we get to deaths. And I would say they both die about as anti-climatically as you can get. Which is worse, blind man with a stick or shot from offscreen. I might say shot from offscreen is worse from my perspective. Because at least Fett's death was framed as having actual stakes in the fight and played up Han's development. It was set up and executed. It was silly, but doesn't take you out of the scene. While TR8R just sort of happens.

So yeah, I can see a comparison between the two. Fett's the better character. But not by much.

Peelee

2020-05-26, 01:19 PM

Taking as someone who does not like either of them and does not undertsand the fanbase of both these characters at all. Here's my take.

Eh. Fett is ruthless and efficient. Is about on par with TR8R is angry and hurt by disloyalty among the troops. Neither are actual real personalities. They're just stock characteristics to get the scene to play out correctly. Neither side gets points on that one.
Ruthlessness and efficiency are actual character traits. Anger is an emotion. Literally anyone can be angry. You could replace TR8R with any other stormtrooper and the character would be mostly the same - maybe he wouldn't throw down the shield for no reason if he was someone else, but that's about it.

Fett's costume is definitely more unique than TR8R, though gotta be honest here. The use of the electro-mace was cooler in action than anything Fett actually does in any fight scene. Would have been cooler still if we got some choreography using that shield he just... throws away. I guess we can add "honorable duelist" to his list of pseudo-character traits? In either case Fett gets the point on that one. But it's closer than it should be at first glance.
Closer than it should be? Fett's costume is entirely unique, only having a (rather lengthy) bridge built towards stormtrooper armor through the prequels. TR8R is, again, a stock stormtrooper with shockystick. 99% the same as every other stormtrooper. In what way is this closer than it should be?

Fett's shtick is actually his cunning more than anything else we see in the OT. Figuring out Han's trick took some thought. But that's about it. Nothing he really does after that point shows any real skill. Vader does the heavy lifting of the capture. In his fight scenes he accomplishes basically nothing. He talks back to Vader, which is full of implied badassery. Pity we don't ever see it.
Fett (and the stormtroopers) herd Luke towards Vader's trap, deliberately missing believably so that he is unharmed for the Emperor. There is no implied badasser in his standing up to Vader - he does, and Vader negotiates with him. This is a contrast to, for example, Lando, who Vader simply walks over like he doesn't even exist, changing the deal Lando had as Vader sees fit. This is Vader directly letting the audience know he respects Fett more than any other villain we have seen such far, barring the Emperor.

Dargaron

2020-05-26, 01:26 PM

Fett's costume is definitely more unique than TR8R, though gotta be honest here. The use of the electro-mace was cooler in action than anything Fett actually does in any fight scene. Would have been cooler still if we got some choreography using that shield he just... throws away. I guess we can add "honorable duelist" to his list of pseudo-character traits? In either case Fett gets the point on that one. But it's closer than it should be at first glance.

Remember that Fett introduced the first Star Wars jetpack in the movies. So on the "interesting tech" field, he's got an edge. As much as I love the idea of the shock tonfa, having personal flight capabilities seems a mite more impressive.

Fyraltari

2020-05-26, 01:42 PM

Dienekes

2020-05-26, 01:43 PM

Remember that Fett introduced the first Star Wars jetpack in the movies. So on the "interesting tech" field, he's got an edge. As much as I love the idea of the shock tonfa, having personal flight capabilities seems a mite more impressive.

Which he uses to move up to Luke and get hit. And then fly into a wall. Real cool there.

Ruthlessness and efficiency are actual character traits. Anger is an emotion. Literally anyone can be angry. You could replace TR8R with any other stormtrooper and the character would be mostly the same - maybe he wouldn't throw down the shield for no reason if he was someone else, but that's about it.

Angry at disloyalty is a character trait. Willingness to throw down weapons to fight his opponent "fair" is a character trait. The other Troopers don't really seem to care. He's the one that screamed and tried to fight the traitor above all else. That's character man. A shallow character, sure. But not any more than Fett. You could replace Fett with any other bounty hunter and nothing is changed. We'd just get a design swap.

Closer than it should be? Fett's costume is entirely unique, only having a (rather lengthy) bridge built towards stormtrooper armor through the prequels. TR8R is, again, a stock stormtrooper with shockystick. 99% the same as every other stormtrooper. In what way is this closer than it should be?

In terms of cool factor? Yeah. Fett's design is far more different. No doubt about it. But it's mostly a bunch of stuff that doesn't do much. A rocket he doesn't shoot. A jetpack that he fails at.

TR8R was given one unique thing to him, but he uses it pretty well. But what's actually important about either of them is: is there enough framing around them that they stand out to the audience. And for both, yeah, they do. That's why we can talk about Fett and TR8R. Because for some reason their design, actions, and role in the story makes the audience remember them.

Fett (and the stormtroopers) herd Luke towards Vader's trap, deliberately missing believably so that he is unharmed for the Emperor. There is no implied badasser in his standing up to Vader - he does, and Vader negotiates with him. This is a contrast to, for example, Lando, who Vader simply walks over like he doesn't even exist, changing the deal Lando had as Vader sees fit. This is Vader directly letting the audience know he respects Fett more than any other villain we have seen such far, barring the Emperor.

That is what implied means? "Suggested but not directly expressed." No one directly saying "Oh that's Fett, I watched him kill an entire fleet of rebels with his pinky." And we don't get to see him be awesome in a fight. But Vader treats him with respect regardless. That is implied badassery. By the way everyone interacts with him, we think he's badass. Ergo, implied.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-26, 02:43 PM

Fett knows about the 'latch onto target to hide from scanners' trick. That's about all he does. Is he missing on purpose or just missing? We don't really know. Ruthless? Efficient? He doesn't demonstrate either of those things.

He's singled out by Vader, not for his skills, but for a mistake. "No disintegrations" means he must have disintegrated someone he was supposed to bring in alive, a major screw up for a bounty hunter. He lets the empire do the work of capturing his target, and then gets paid twice. So, he's good at getting paid, which is an underappreciated skill, but all he has to do once Han is in carbonite is transport a solid block in his ship, which doesn't take skill.

Vader pays him, but has that anything to do with Boba himself, or just pragmatism because otherwise the next time he needs a bounty brought in no one will show up.

Unique look isn't true any more, because now every Mandalorian wears similar gear.

Maul's lack of lines is characterisation in itself. He wants to fight, not talk.

hungrycrow

2020-05-26, 04:05 PM

He's singled out by Vader, not for his skills, but for a mistake. "No disintegrations" means he must have disintegrated someone he was supposed to bring in alive, a major screw up for a bounty hunter. He lets the empire do the work of capturing his target, and then gets paid twice. So, he's good at getting paid, which is an underappreciated skill, but all he has to do once Han is in carbonite is transport a solid block in his ship, which doesn't take skill.

Given that Fett says 'as you wish', i took that as meaning that he chose to disintegrate people, not that he was incompetent.

dancrilis

2020-05-26, 04:39 PM

This is Vader directly letting the audience know he respects Fett more than any other villain we have seen such far, barring the Emperor.

I have to disagree on this point - Vader showed at least as much respect to Tarkin (and I would argue more).

Vinyadan

2020-05-26, 04:49 PM

I think Maul add one more special thing: he was the first time we saw a villain that wasn't old or handicapped. Yes, Vader is strong and scary, but also very heavy and can't breath. The Emperor can shoot lightning from his hands, but he is old and dry.

And then, we see this tiger Sith who takes on the Jedi two at a time, wants to run people over with a bike, doesn't care to speak, and looks like a predator even when he has to stop pursuit (that shoot as the bird, Padme's ship, flies away). Plus, he stalks his prey and can do recon on his own.

Maul has everything. And he's perfect for a time when the Sith still have to act on their own, because they have no political power.

Devonix

2020-05-26, 05:25 PM

I have to disagree on this point - Vader showed at least as much respect to Tarkin (and I would argue more).

Yeah I really think that's putting the weight of things that came after onto something that didn't exist. Boba Fett was just some random bounty hunter that out of all of them was lucky enough to find Han.

Vader didn't see Boba fett as more or less skilled than any of the other bounty hunters. Hell the line in the way it was read didn't even seem to be singling out Fett at all. he was addressing all of them in the scene and it just so happened when he got to that part of the speech he was standing in front of Fett. It's the same way if you're addressing troops. and you want all of them to do something, but you point out one that's near you as an example to direct it to.

Vader and Fett didn't have this big long standing relationship. Fett was just some guy. It's only because fans liked him that he later became something. But in the film, in the story he's a nobody. Starwars fans, and scifi fans in general have the problem of assigning our own personal opinions and likes onto something that we believe it overides the text of the film.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-26, 06:44 PM

Given that Fett says 'as you wish', i took that as meaning that he chose to disintegrate people, not that he was incompetent.

If that was the case, wouldn't 'I want them alive' be enough? That should be bread and butter for any good bounty hunter, instead he has to emphasize 'Alive means not disintegrated, you idiot'.

Dienekes

2020-05-26, 07:47 PM

Vinyadan

2020-05-26, 07:49 PM

Honestly, I’m pretty sure the writer just wanted to say disintegration because it sounds cool and future-y, and Vader says it to Fett because then we get to establish who Fett is in the line up as someone to pay attention to as he will be important later.
And that he is a dangerous dude who disintegrated someone. So when he follows them, there's the menace of capture or, if needed, disintegration hanging over their heads.

Dire_Flumph

2020-05-26, 08:43 PM

Given that Fett says 'as you wish', i took that as meaning that he chose to disintegrate people, not that he was incompetent.

Eventually, the day came when Vader was amazed to discover that when Boba was saying "As you wish", what he really meant was "I love you".

Sorry, I'll see myself out....

Peelee

2020-05-26, 09:20 PM

I have to disagree on this point - Vader showed at least as much respect to Tarkin (and I would argue more).
I'll cop to that.

Yeah I really think that's putting the weight of things that came after onto something that didn't exist. Boba Fett was just some random bounty hunter that out of all of them was lucky enough to find Han.
Lucky? He disguised his ship among the garbage that was being dumped long enough for the Falcon to believe it had evaded detection. Setting a perfect trap and it springing successfully isn't getting lucky, it's knowing exactly what you're doing. And it happens immediately; the intention is clearly to show that Fett's skills are above the other hunters as well as the Imperials', including the actual space wizard.

Vader and Fett didn't have this big long standing relationship. Fett was just some guy. It's only because fans liked him that he later became something. But in the film, in the story he's a nobody. Starwars fans, and scifi fans in general have the problem of assigning our own personal opinions and likes onto something that we believe it overides the text of the film.
He successfully negotiates with Vader in a rather brusque manner. We have seen how Vader deals with negotiations with "nobodies, just some guy" with Calrissian - he steamrolls them. We see how he deals with people he views as incompetents - he straight up murders them, even if they are admirals in the Imperial Fleet. Fett is able to accomplish what very few others have - go toe to toe with Vader and come out with exactly what he wants. Fans like him because the text of the movie gives fans obvious reason to like him.

Eventually, the day came when Vader was amazed to discover that when Boba was saying "As you wish", what he really meant was "I love you"

That's a longstanding joke serious theory.

Devonix

2020-05-27, 01:03 AM

I'll cop to that.

Lucky? He disguised his ship among the garbage that was being dumped long enough for the Falcon to believe it had evaded detection. Setting a perfect trap and it springing successfully isn't getting lucky, it's knowing exactly what you're doing. And it happens immediately; the intention is clearly to show that Fett's skills are above the other hunters as well as the Imperials', including the actual space wizard.

That's a longstanding joke serious theory.

Trap what trap? He found out where they were going and called his employer so that he could get paid. He never set any trap, Vader did.

dancrilis

2020-05-27, 04:20 AM

Trap what trap? He found out where they were going and called his employer so that he could get paid. He never set any trap, Vader did.

In fairness Vader was the trap that Fett set.

Vader hired a number of bounty hunters - one of them figured out the bounties likely move, tracked them, and informed the employer where they were.
All of this was presumedly the terms of the contract.

As such Boba Fett gets recognition as a great bounty hunter (literally the only one who we know succeeded at the job), and while Vader not killing him when he outlived his immediate usefulness tells us more about Vader then Fett it does tell us that Fett can negotiate with the Dark Lord and not only walk away but be offered guarantees and be treated politely.

I was never really a fan of Boba Fett (nothing against him I just saw him as a bit character) - but Peelee is not wrong that within the context of The Empire Strikes Back he does his job competently and well without being annoying about it while offering something new to the series - so it is not a surprise that he did get a fandom.

Peelee

2020-05-27, 07:39 AM

Trap what trap? He found out where they were going and called his employer so that he could get paid. He never set any trap, Vader did.

Hiding his ship in the garbage in order to find the Falcon.

Rodin

2020-05-27, 09:07 AM

I was never really a fan of Boba Fett (nothing against him I just saw him as a bit character) - but Peelee is not wrong that within the context of The Empire Strikes Back he does his job competently and well without being annoying about it while offering something new to the series - so it is not a surprise that he did get a fandom.

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

And from this he got a significant part of one of the movies dedicated to his backstory, an entire race named after him, countless EU stories, his own cartoon in the Holiday Special...etc. etc.

There are very few (if any) popular characters with a more inexplicable origin than Fett. It's like if Figwit from the LOTR movies got his own TV series.

Peelee

2020-05-27, 09:17 AM

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

The only accomplishment you can give him is outsmarting the entire Empire, including a space wizard, immediately, and also standing up to said space wizard successfully when every other person in that movie died the second the inconvenienced him in the slightest (with the only exception of Calrissian, who was steamrolled and had all power taken away from him). In ESB, Fett is a guy who gets things done. When the Empire, with star destroyers and Super star destroyers at its disposal, headed by a space wizard, cannot do the job, they can call in Fett and he'll get it done. That is one hell of a statement for the movie to make, and it flings itself full into making it.

ESB made Fett's fandom, and RotJ didn't drop the ball enough to kill it. The lack of backstory worked in his favor, since imagination would always be better than the real thing.

Vinyadan

2020-05-27, 09:25 AM

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

And from this he got a significant part of one of the movies dedicated to his backstory, an entire race named after him, countless EU stories, his own cartoon in the Holiday Special...etc. etc.

There are very few (if any) popular characters with a more inexplicable origin than Fett. It's like if Figwit from the LOTR movies got his own TV series.

Actually, the cartoon came out before 5, and it was his first appearance overall. But Boba had a very cool design, which is probably why he is famous, and was immediately toyfied.

Also, he looked like a baby Vader, what about being a shorter, armoured guy, murderous but with a less menacing colour, taking orders, being berated about his past mistakes, and finally having Vader make body contact with him in a non-threatening way and also having Vader listen to his complains. Seriously, Boba was the son Vader never had (because Luke was Anakin's).

Peelee

2020-05-27, 09:44 AM

That's still a really thin justification to hang an entire fandom on. In the OT he has all of 4 lines, totaling less than 30 words. He has no backstory. No motivation other than "I'm a bounty hunter". He has no connection to any of the protagonists, no big rivalry or history to explore. He doesn't have any badass fight scenes, or any pithy one-liners. His one fight scene is less than impressive. The only accomplishment you can give him is being clever enough to hang out in the garbage.

And from this he got a significant part of one of the movies dedicated to his backstory, an entire race named after him, countless EU stories, his own cartoon in the Holiday Special...etc. etc.

There are very few (if any) popular characters with a more inexplicable origin than Fett. It's like if Figwit from the LOTR movies got his own TV series.Actually, the cartoon came out before 5, and it was his first appearance overall.

If we're going to be picking some nits, then he also did not have an entire race named after him; There are no Fettians, of Bobites. Fett was labelled as a Mandalorian, and was wearing Mandalorian armor, but amusingly enough he got removed from the Mandalorians some time ago.

GloatingSwine

2020-05-27, 09:58 AM

Also, Mandalorians aren't a race. They're a creed.

Fyraltari

2020-05-27, 10:14 AM

I'm not sure Fett really "stood up to Vader", Vader simply didn't care for what Fett wanted, it really doesn't look like Fett would have insisted if vader had said no. Also Vader is much less flippant in ESB than the fandom would led you to believe, he only kills his underling when they fail him (which Fett hasn't done) and even then not always as Piett could attest.

Also, Mandalorians aren't a race. They're a creed.

I'd say they are an ethno-cultural group like the Jews in real life.

GloatingSwine

2020-05-27, 10:34 AM

I'd say they are an ethno-cultural group like the Jews in real life.

{Scrubbed}

When you become a Mandalorian, you are a Mandalorian in all ways that exist, and you can't be born a Mandalorian, only follow their creed. You can stop being a Mandalorian if you stop following the creed as well.

The phrase "it's not a race, it's a creed" is even explicitly said in The Mandalorian. And is almost certainly being set up as a specific mirror to the Jedi later on (that phrase will be repeated about them).

Peelee

2020-05-27, 10:48 AM

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Closed for review.

truemane

2020-05-29, 10:33 AM

Metamagic Mod: thread re-opened.

Peelee

2020-05-29, 10:56 AM

{Scrubbed}

When you become a Mandalorian, you are a Mandalorian in all ways that exist, and you can't be born a Mandalorian, only follow their creed. You can stop being a Mandalorian if you stop following the creed as well.

The phrase "it's not a race, it's a creed" is even explicitly said in The Mandalorian. And is almost certainly being set up as a specific mirror to the Jedi later on (that phrase will be repeated about them).

Mandalorians are a cultural race, effectively. In the EU/Legends, to be a Mandalorian, you just had to want to be a Mandalorian and live in the Mandalorian way. They were all warriors, regardless of whatever else they were. There were Mandalorian farmers, Mandalorian chefs, Mandalorian teachers, etc. But in a heartbeat, if needed, the Mandalorian farmer was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian chef was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian teacher was also a Mandalorian warrior. When Mandalore called, the people listened. Most were human, but there was no species requirement. It looks as if canon is sticking with that, but I can't say for certain yet - too small a sample size so far, and I'm assuming the same until they portray them differently.

So you can absolutely be born a Mandalorian, you can simply just choose to leave the Mandalorians if you wish. The Mandalorian also says if you take your helmet off, you can never put it back on, so I think it's pretty clear they are a specific sect with their own sort of rules. Orthodox Mandalorians, for lack of a better term (I'm not about to call them Death Watch just yet, and not just because I dislike how the Mandalorians were portrayed in TCW, and the silly name "Death Watch").

Keltest

2020-05-29, 11:06 AM

Mandalorians are a cultural race, effectively. In the EU/Legends, to be a Mandalorian, you just had to want to be a Mandalorian and live in the Mandalorian way. They were all warriors, regardless of whatever else they were. There were Mandalorian farmers, Mandalorian chefs, Mandalorian teachers, etc. But in a heartbeat, if needed, the Mandalorian farmer was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian chef was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian teacher was also a Mandalorian warrior. When Mandalore called, the people listened. Most were human, but there was no species requirement. It looks as if canon is sticking with that, but I can't say for certain yet - too small a sample size so far, and I'm assuming the same until they portray them differently.

So you can absolutely be born a Mandalorian, you can simply just choose to leave the Mandalorians if you wish. The Mandalorian also says if you take your helmet off, you can never put it back on, so I think it's pretty clear they are a specific sect with their own sort of rules. Orthodox Mandalorians, for lack of a better term (I'm not about to call them Death Watch just yet, and not just because I dislike how the Mandalorians were portrayed in TCW, and the silly name "Death Watch").

My take about the helmet was less a literal issue with never being able to show his face, ever, although there is a degree of that, and more about placing the faceless warrior identity above his own personal one. He is a Mandalorian first, and Din Djarrin second, and they adopted this as a result of the imperial persecution. If you take your helmet off for somebody, or have it removed, then you are incapable of acting as a Mandalorian Warrior, either through lack of competence or lack of dedication.

Vinyadan

2020-05-29, 11:08 AM

How do they eat? Are they ninjas? Was Jango an apostate? Or is it just metaphor?

Peelee

2020-05-29, 11:12 AM

How do they eat? Are they ninjas? Was Jango an apostate? Or is it just metaphor?

"Never take it off" is an embellishment, as the show itself shows; they can take off the helmets in private. Din does this in episode 4 to eat. I also view the "weapons are part of my religion" line in episode 2 as more or less the same; an embellishment and not literally true, but still functionally conveying the core message.

Jango and Boba were declared not Mandalorians by Mandalore, IIRC. Imposters who just wore Mandalorian armor.

ETA because I didn't see it:

My take about the helmet was less a literal issue with never being able to show his face, ever, although there is a degree of that, and more about placing the faceless warrior identity above his own personal one. He is a Mandalorian first, and Din Djarrin second, and they adopted this as a result of the imperial persecution. If you take your helmet off for somebody, or have it removed, then you are incapable of acting as a Mandalorian Warrior, either through lack of competence or lack of dedication.
Fully agree.

Keltest

2020-05-29, 11:19 AM

"Never take it off" is an embellishment, as the show itself shows; they can take off the helmets in private. Din does this in episode 4 to eat. I also view the "weapons are part of my religion" line in episode 2 as more or less the same; an embellishment and not literally true, but still functionally conveying the core message.

Jango and Boba were declared not Mandalorians by Mandalore, IIRC. Imposters who just wore Mandalorian armor.

ETA because I didn't see it:

Fully agree.

Wookieepedia indicates he claims to have been born on Concord Dawn.

Peelee

2020-05-29, 11:21 AM

Wookieepedia indicates he claims to have been born on Concord Dawn.

It also noted that he claims this, which indicates he may not have been. I don't have the Complete Visual Dictionary (and I'm reminded of Bill Waterson here), so I can't go into more detail on this, I'm afraid.

Keltest

2020-05-29, 11:24 AM

It also noted that he claims this, which indicates he may not have been. I don't have the Complete Visual Dictionary (and I'm reminded of Bill Waterson here), so I can't go into more detail on this, I'm afraid.

Occam's razor would suggest he is telling the truth, if only because the mandalorians don't really need any more reason to disown him than being an assassin and bounty hunter not under their hierarchy.

Peelee

2020-05-29, 11:28 AM

Occam's razor would suggest he is telling the truth, if only because the mandalorians don't really need any more reason to disown him than being an assassin and bounty hunter not under their hierarchy.

I'd agree, I just think it's odd that it notes "claim" by Concord Dawn.

Also, I'm reminded of the Simpsons.

Mandalore: Mandalorians and Jedi are natural enemies. Just like Mandalorians and Sith. Or Mandalorians and the Republic. Or Mandalorians the the Empire. Or Mandalorians and other Mandalorians. Damn Mandalorians! They ruined Mandalore!

Any living being: You Mandalorians sure are a contentious people.

Mandalore: You just made an enemy for life.

Keltest

2020-05-29, 11:34 AM

I'd agree, I just think it's odd that it notes "claim" by Concord Dawn.

Also, I'm reminded of the Simpsons.

Mandalore: Mandalorians and Jedi are natural enemies. Just like Mandalorians and Sith. Or Mandalorians and the Republic. Or Mandalorians the the Empire. Or Mandalorians and other Mandalorians. Damn Mandalorians! They ruined Mandalore!

Any living being: You Mandalorians sure are a contentious people.

Mandalore: You just made an enemy for life.

Its probably just because of his bounty hunter mystique. They want to give him a mysterious past.

Fyraltari

2020-05-29, 01:47 PM

Jango and Boba were declared not Mandalorians by Mandalore, IIRC. Imposters who just wore Mandalorian armor.
Wait, what? Why?
What an odd decision, the Mandalorian were created as being Bobba’s people, making him and his clone-daddy outcasts is weird. That’d Be like saying Chewbacca isn’t a true wookiee or something.

Mandalorians are a cultural race, effectively. In the EU/Legends, to be a Mandalorian, you just had to want to be a Mandalorian and live in the Mandalorian way. They were all warriors, regardless of whatever else they were. There were Mandalorian farmers, Mandalorian chefs, Mandalorian teachers, etc. But in a heartbeat, if needed, the Mandalorian farmer was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian chef was also a Mandalorian warrior, the Mandalorian teacher was also a Mandalorian warrior. When Mandalore called, the people listened. Most were human, but there was no species requirement. It looks as if canon is sticking with that, but I can't say for certain yet - too small a sample size so far, and I'm assuming the same until they portray them differently.

You know, that brings an interesting point. The Mandalorians are characterized as the best non-magical fighters the galaxy has to offer, but when you think about it, to be the best at what you do you have to do it all the time (or at least make it you’re job).

That’s the reason for the existence of warrior classes in most premodern societies; if you want the people tasked with protecting you from the raiders from over the mountains you can’t ask them to herd goats in between attacks.

Farming takes a lot of time out of one’s day so a Mandalorian farmer would not be able to maintain his fighting skills at the peak of his potential. Take a look at Jango: he gave Obi-Wan a run for his money and killed a certified Jedi knight. That guy doesn’t moonlight as a waiter in one of Coruscant’s inexplicable 50´s dinners, that’s for sure.

But of course somebody has to feed the warriors, build their ships, maintain the buildings, enforce their laws, etc so the vast majority can’t afford to Ben full-time warriors.

As a result, it’s pretty much inevitable that only a minority of ‘true warrior’ Mandalorians actually live up to the hype, while the rest is only marginally better fighters than the rest of the Galaxy’s denizens (if at all). Which raises the question of how much respect (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KlingonScientistsGetNoRespect) they get.

Another, less likely, possibility is that the Mandalorian outsource their non-combat needs to non-Mandalorians either through mass slavery (which would probably cause their neighbors to gang up on them and eradicate them) or through trade, the logistic of which would be a total nightmare.

Peelee

2020-05-29, 01:57 PM

Wait, what? Why?
What an odd decision, the Mandalorian were created as being Bobba’s people, making him and his clone-daddy outcasts is weird. That’d Be like saying Chewbacca isn’t a true wookiee or something.
That's an excellent question. It is indeed weird, especially since it's weird that they were decried by the Mandalorians for being petty mercenaries (that has always been looked down on in Mando society in Legends, but was still more or less acceptable, especially in times of need, and the rest of the galaxy prized Mando mercs and bounty hunters like crazy).

You know, that brings an interesting point. The Mandalorians are characterized as the best non-magical fighters the galaxy has to offer, but when you think about it, to be the best at what you do you have to do it all the time (or at least make it you’re job).

That’s the reason for the existence of warrior classes in most premodern societies; if you want the people tasked with protecting you from the raiders from over the mountains you can’t ask them to herd goats in between attacks.

Farming takes a lot of time out of one’s day so a Mandalorian farmer would not be able to maintain his fighting skills at the peak of his potential. Take a look at Jango: he gave Obi-Wan a run for his money and killed a certified Jedi knight. That guy doesn’t moonlight as a waiter in one of Coruscant’s inexplicable 50´s dinners, that’s for sure.

But of course somebody has to feed the warriors, build their ships, maintain the buildings, enforce their laws, etc so the vast majority can’t afford to Ben full-time warriors.

As a result, it’s pretty much inevitable that only a minority of ‘true warrior’ Mandalorians actually live up to the hype, while the rest is only marginally better fighters than the rest of the Galaxy’s denizens (if at all). Which raises the question of how much respect (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KlingonScientistsGetNoRespect) they get.

Another, less likely, possibility is that the Mandalorian outsource their non-combat needs to non-Mandalorians either through mass slavery (which would probably cause their neighbors to gang up on them and eradicate them) or through trade, the logistic of which would be a total nightmare.
Well, the dedicated mercenaries/bounty hunters/soldiers were the super skilled ones, but even the farmers, waiters, etc. had the Mandalorian mindset - determination, grit, daring-that-verges-on-crazy (like jumping out of a ship in low orbit riding a basilisk war droid down through enemy batteries and fighters, the armor their only protection against the cold vacuum of space, burning through the atmosphere filled with blaster bolts both friendly and enemy, for example). They could organize, follow orders, and even the laborers they didn't skimp on training. A stock Mandalorian farmer was, IIRC, roughly equal to an average professional soldier, while the Mando dedicated warriors were one-person batallions. But unless they were attacked or wanted to wage a large-scale war themselves (which was relatively rare, though massive when it happened), they more or less kept to themselves.

But, again, this is mostly Legends. Currently, Mandalorians are just kind of normal people who were largely dedicated pacifists and also have a strong warrior subculture, kind of? TCW didn't do the Mando culture any favors, is what I'm saying, and it certainly had the chance.

ETA: KOTOR and KOTOR 2 had the best explorations of Mandalorians, IMO, especially Canderous Ordo, and double especially his arc in KOTOR 1. And I wish it had largely kept to those ideas in the new canon.

The Glyphstone

2020-05-29, 02:10 PM

If we accept the Holiday special as canon, regular Wwookkiiees wear clothes. Maybe Chewbacca is an outcast because he's a Wwookkiiee nudist?

Peelee

2020-05-29, 02:15 PM

Wwookkiiees

Ah, I see you are proficient in Shyriiwook!

Keltest

2020-05-29, 02:17 PM

That's an excellent question. It is indeed weird, especially since it's weird that they were decried by the Mandalorians for being petty mercenaries (that has always been looked down on in Mando society in Legends, but was still more or less acceptable, especially in times of need, and the rest of the galaxy prized Mando mercs and bounty hunters like crazy).

Well, the dedicated mercenaries/bounty hunters/soldiers were the super skilled ones, but even the farmers, waiters, etc. had the Mandalorian mindset - determination, grit, daring-that-verges-on-crazy (like jumping out of a ship in low orbit riding a basilisk war droid down through enemy batteries and fighters, the armor their only protection against the cold vacuum of space, burning through the atmosphere filled with blaster bolts both friendly and enemy, for example). They could organize, follow orders, and even the laborers they didn't skimp on training. A stock Mandalorian farmer was, IIRC, roughly equal to an average professional soldier, while the Mando dedicated warriors were one-person batallions. But unless they were attacked or wanted to wage a large-scale war themselves (which was relatively rare, though massive when it happened), they more or less kept to themselves.

But, again, this is mostly Legends. Currently, Mandalorians are just kind of normal people who were largely dedicated pacifists and also have a strong warrior subculture, kind of? TCW didn't do the Mando culture any favors, is what I'm saying, and it certainly had the chance.

ETA: KOTOR and KOTOR 2 had the best explorations of Mandalorians, IMO, especially Canderous Ordo, and double especially his arc in KOTOR 1. And I wish it had largely kept to those ideas in the new canon.

From my understanding, the pacifist movement was something that only started within a generation, as an attempt to reject the image of violent... well, space Vikings, basically.

Actually, space Vikings are a pretty good analogy for the general trajectory the Mandalorians' culture had taken.

Fyraltari

2020-05-29, 02:17 PM

Pretty sure the plural of Wwookkiiee is Wwookkiieess.
Also Chewbacca isn’t naked he has that ammunition-belt thingie.

Keltest

2020-05-29, 02:19 PM

Pretty sure the plural of Wwookkiiee is Wwookkiieess.
Also Chewbacca isn’t naked he has that ammunition-belt thingie.

Its called a bandolier. Or maybe baandoolieer in Shyriiwook.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-29, 02:53 PM

I wonder at the 'never take off your helmet' prohibition'. The nature of bounty hunting means that you may well need to spend long periods with no privacy when on a hunt.

It's fairly easy to be the best warriors in the galaxy when you all wear the best armour in the galaxy. The ability to get shot and not be hurt is a big advantage.

One thing I wonder about, Re both TROS and DOTF: With regard to the whole 'you're nothing, you're nobody' deal, Finn is a walking rebuttal to that whole mindset. Why doesn't he have a role in that part of the plot?

Peelee

2020-05-29, 03:07 PM

Vinyadan

2020-05-29, 03:10 PM

Fyraltari

2020-05-29, 03:22 PM

I wonder at the 'never take off your helmet' prohibition'. The nature of bounty hunting means that you may well need to spend long periods with no privacy when on a hunt.
Then you eat on the crapper. Also I'm really not sure why you say that, bounty hunting seems to be a pretty lonely job on the galaxy far far away.

It's fairly easy to be the best warriors in the galaxy when you all wear the best armour in the galaxy. The ability to get shot and not be hurt is a big advantage.

The Mandalorian shows the titualr Mandalorian being a superior bounty hunter with no more than a helmet and a pauldron of mandalorian steel, and when he acquires a whole set of mandalorian armour he is the only member of his tribe to be so lucky and they still kick ass.

Peelee

2020-05-29, 03:45 PM

The Mandalorian shows the titualr Mandalorian being a superior bounty hunter with no more than a helmet and a pauldron of mandalorian steel, and when he acquires a whole set of mandalorian armour he is the only member of his tribe to be so lucky and they still kick ass.

He is the only one with unpainted beskar. The final episode implied (to me, at least) that most of the Mandalorians in the covert had armor made of Mandalorian iron.

The armorer was collecting and re-smelting it all, is what I'm basing that on. Earlier on, nobody seems envious of the beskar so much as they gather because of the sheer amount he brought in at once; similarly, nobody had any issue with him having it except for it being Imperial.

Yora

2020-05-30, 04:13 AM

Another, less likely, possibility is that the Mandalorian outsource their non-combat needs to non-Mandalorians either through mass slavery (which would probably cause their neighbors to gang up on them and eradicate them) or through trade, the logistic of which would be a total nightmare.

In a universe where everything mostly stays the same, the Mandalorians actually change a lot. They started as the remnants of the Taung empire that allowed other people to join their gangs.

The traditional Crusaders of the Old Republic consisted of individuals and small gangs spread out over huge areas with no real government or territory. But they would occadionally form a giant horde under the Mandalore and go to big wars. One of these served the Sith under Exar Kun, but the Sith lost and the Mandalorians got badly beaten.

Then Mandalore the Invincible got the idea of the Neo-Crusaders, who are a much more structured army that takes in everyone who wants to kill, with barely any attention paid to Mandalorian culture. They went on a big conquest and forced the people they conquered to provide them with more weapons and supplies. They basically went with the Spartan model of giving all the non-fighting work to essentially slaves.
Lots of old Crusaders thought that was stupid and against Mandalorian culture, and it didn't last long.

The Mandalorians of the Clone Wars are something very different entirely.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-30, 02:00 PM

Haven't seen Mando, but

doesn't he go on several multi day collaborative missions with dubiously trustworthy people?

Fyraltari

2020-05-30, 02:11 PM

Haven't seen Mando, but

doesn't he go on several multi day collaborative missions with dubiously trustworthy people?

After a fashion, yes. What’s your point?

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-30, 05:42 PM

That's a lot of opportunities for a mishap on being walked in on with your helmet off meaning that you can't put it on again.

dancrilis

2020-05-30, 05:44 PM

That's a lot of opportunities for a mishap on being walked in on with your helmet off meaning that you can't put it on again.

Other then eating (and there are ways around that - including not eating for a while) what other opportunities are there?

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-30, 05:48 PM

Keltest

2020-05-30, 06:33 PM

You have to eat and drink a lot when active, especially when, for instance, wandering through the desert. Having to wander off alone every time you do has potential to be very dangerous. But not having seen the show, I can't really die on this hill.

He generally makes a point of working alone for jobs longer than a day or two. And he lives in his ship. It's generally not brought up outside of taverns and the like.

Peelee

2020-05-30, 06:40 PM

You have to eat and drink a lot when active, especially when, for instance, wandering through the desert. Having to wander off alone every time you do has potential to be very dangerous. But not having seen the show, I can't really die on this hill.

I don't know if you're aware, but there actually is a whole episode in a desert.

On a slightly related note, I wholly recommend watching it if you can.

InvisibleBison

2020-05-30, 07:05 PM

On a slightly related note, I wholly recommend watching it if you can.

And I recommend you don't watch it. I found the plot to be boring and the title character utterly unsympathetic.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-30, 09:22 PM

I know most of the story, I just don't like nearly everything I've heard about it. Probably will cave eventually.

Keltest

2020-05-30, 09:34 PM

The story is really besides the point. Its a Star Wars western, the story exists entirely to facilitate the titular gunslinger to travel around and gunsling. The actual story is, IMO, elegant in its simplicity so far, not needing to involve big dramatic galaxy shaking events revolving entirely around the life of one dude and his adopted kid, and the best thing it does is not distract from The Mandalorian being himself.

Peelee

2020-05-30, 10:24 PM

And I recommend you don't (watch it. I found the plot to be boring and the title character utterly unsympathetic.

Eh, to each their own. I don't need a sympathetic lead (my fave Nic Cage film is Lord of War, for example), and it really captured the feel of the Star Wars universe, for the most part.

Rogar Demonblud

2020-05-30, 10:41 PM

And Pedro Pascal gives a fricking clinic in how to act without depending exclusively on your face. The things that man does with just body language...

Dienekes

2020-05-30, 11:34 PM

I know most of the story, I just don't like nearly everything I've heard about it. Probably will cave eventually.

Do you like Spaghetti Westerns and the Star Wars aesthetic? If yes to both give it a look. If no to both, don't. If yes to one but not the other flip a coin.

Peelee

2020-05-31, 12:08 AM

And Pedro Pascal gives a fricking clinic in how to act without depending exclusively on your face. The things that man does with just body language...

He wasn't in the suit for the majority of the show, IIRC.

Sapphire Guard

2020-05-31, 10:13 AM

Do you like Spaghetti Westerns and the Star Wars aesthetic? If yes to both give it a look. If no to both, don't. If yes to one but not the other flip a coin.

Sometimes to both, which isn't all that helpful I guess I could do another review thread here, that was fun last time.

Darth Credence

2020-06-01, 02:34 PM

Fyraltari

2020-06-01, 02:50 PM

As to Mandalorians needing to remove their helmets to eat - liquid diets exist today, so I would expect they would exist in the galaxy far, far away as well. While around other people, he could get everything through a straw.

We see him take his helmet off to eat, though. Again this isn’t complicated, even if he has to share his ship with someone for several days he can just eat on the toilet.

Peelee

2020-06-01, 02:54 PM

We see him take his helmet off to eat, though. Again this isn’t complicated, even if he has to share his ship with someone for several days he can just eat on the toilet.

And one of the first things we see in his ship in the pilot episode shows that it's not exactly a problem when hauling bounties.

Darth Credence

2020-06-02, 08:43 AM

We see him take his helmet off to eat, though. Again this isn’t complicated, even if he has to share his ship with someone for several days he can just eat on the toilet.

Sure - if you have the opportunity to take the helmet off and eat, you do so. I'd probably rather survive on Ensure for a few days than eat a sandwich while sitting on the toilet, though.
Really, I was just pointing out one of the many ways that leaving the helmet on around others is not an impossible hardship.