PDA

View Full Version : Why Forcecage+Cloudkill is useless



Saph
2007-10-26, 05:28 PM
Those of you who read my posts will probably have heard most of this before. Apologies. I'll try to change the wording up a bit to make it more interesting. :)

Somehow or other the belief has become deeply entrenched in this forum that Forcecage combined with Cloudkill is one of the Great Combos of D&D, and is the thing that every wizard should be aspiring towards. It actually stemmed from a thread ages and ages ago about a level 20 wizard versus a level 20 fighter. For some reason - I'm not sure exactly why - the 'forcecage+cloudkill' combo, rather than all the other ones, was the one that got remembered, and now not a week on this forum goes by without people quoting it in threads as though it's a great tactic. (Note: Please don't feel insulted if you're one of these people. I'm not saying you're stupid, just that the combo is.)

The Forcecage+Cloudkill combo is actually one of the most inefficient and ineffective spell combinations you can possibly use at high levels, and here's why.

The Combo

Cast Cloudkill on an enemy, then cast Forcecage in the 10' windowless cell variant to trap them along with the poison. They can still teleport/ethereal out, so you'll need to put a Dimensional Lock on as well to stop that. That's three spells in one turn, so you'll need a Time Stop to be able to do them all before the enemy can move. And to make sure you get to do it first you'll need Celerity, plus Foresight to keep from being flat-footed. So the full combo is:

Foresight+Celerity+Time Stop+Dimensional Lock+Cloudkill+Forcecage.

Problems

We'll ignore for now that you've just burnt six spells, including two 9th-levels, to do this one combo. We'll also ignore the question of how you can keep the 10 minute/level duration Foresight spell up 24 hours a day, and what your finances are going to look like if you've been casting Forcecage every encounter with its 1,500 GP material component.

Instead we'll note that this combo can be beaten by three things:

a) greater dispel magic to knock out the dimensional lock or cloudkill,
b) immunity to poison,
c) being Huge or larger in size so that you can't fit into the 10' forcecage.

A wizard has to be 17th level minimum to cast the two 9th-level spells in this combo, so let's say levels 17-20. What sort of monsters will he be fighting at this level?

Balor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#balor) - CR 20. Immune to poison. Greater dispel magic as a SLA.

Marilith (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/demon.htm#marilith) - CR 17. Immune to poison.

Pit Fiend (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/devil.htm#pitFiend) - CR 20. Immune to poison. Greater dispel magic as a SLA.

Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) - CR 20. Immune to poison, and too big to fit in a forcecage.

Nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) - CR 18. Immune to poison, greater dispel magic as a SLA, and too big to fit in a forcecage - all three in one low-cost package!

Formian Queen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/formian.htm#queen) - CR 17. Is a 17th level sorcerer, so is guaranteed to have one spell or other that'll work, has an army of formians around her at all times, and is, you guessed it, immune to poison.

Titan (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/titan.htm) - CR 21. Greater dispel magic as a SLA. And too big to fit in a forcecage - but hey, he's the first thing we've found that's not immune to poison!

Okay. So it's pretty clear by this point that the Forcecage+Cloudkill combo is going to be a miserable failure against anything out of the Monster Manual with a CR of 17 up. What about human NPC opponents - the ones the combo was designed against? Let's see how a 20th-level core base class will do against it.

20th-level Full Caster (wizard, sorcerer, druid, cleric) - Waste of time. They'll dispel it, immunise themselves against it, or just hit you with a better combo first.

20th-level Skill Monkey (bard, rogue) - They have Use Magic Device and enough money to buy eleventy bajillion scrolls. You'd better believe they've got something in their bag of tricks that'll stop this.

20th-level Half Caster (paladin, ranger) - Now we're getting somewhere. They don't have UMD and can't easily dispel or counter. But they do both have Neutralise Poison, so if worst comes to worst they can just cast it from memory or scroll and wait you out.

20th-level Who-Knows-What (monk) - Do 20th-level monks even exist? Anyway, they're immune to poison.

20th-level Melee (fighter, barbarian) - Hooray! We've finally found something the combo works against!

. . . Or not.

A 20th-level character should be carrying enough magic items to equal the GDP of a small nation. There are abundant magic items out there that either make you immune to poison or which can dispel stuff around you.

Hell, if you're playing a fighter or barb and are really THAT paranoid about being forcecaged, there's an item in the Magic Item Compendium called the Pick of Piercing, which has the ability 3/day to destroy any force effect, as if with disintegrate. It costs about 10,000 gp, approximately 1% of a 20th-level PC's wealth. Personally I don't think it's worth the money, but hey, you want forcecage immunity that badly, knock yourself out.

Summary

The Forcecage+Cloudkill combo is really great for killing things, as long as they:

a) aren't immune to poison
b) can't cast spells
c) don't have any powerful spell-like-abilities
d) aren't Huge or larger
e) don't have any magic items that'll counter it.

A set of conditions that exclude EVERYTHING YOU'LL BE FIGHTING AT THAT LEVEL.

If you actually want a nasty spell to hit opponents with at 17th-level up, I recommend Maw of Chaos from the Spell Compendium. Does 1d6 damage per level, no save, and requires a Will save to avoid being dazed, affecting a 15-foot radius and repeating each round. Combine it with something to stop them moving and they should be dead quick enough.

Heck, you can even use Forcecage if you want. Though I'm sure there's a more efficient way to do it.

This has been your Too-Much-Information broadcast on why Forcecage+Cloudkill does not work. Thank you and good night. :P

- Saph

The Glyphstone
2007-10-26, 05:33 PM
I don't think ForceCageCloudKill was designed for 'real-game' combat. If the wizard needs to kill things for money, he goes out and Quickened Reach Maximized Shivering Touches great wyrms...the ForceCageCloudKill (not going to abbreviate it, as it comes very close to violating board policies) was really only for the constant "a Fighter/Barbarian/Monk/Drunken Lemur/Other Non-full caster besides UMD rogue can totally beat a wizard in a PvP arena" arguments. Back then, it was a Rod of Cancellation that was their only hope of survival. I guess this Pick of Piercing is the new rod.

Kurald Galain
2007-10-26, 05:41 PM
But but but but....

How about using that Energy Substitution trick to replace poisonous cloudkill by one that does fire damage?!!1!!

Because nothing at CL 17 is ever going to be immune to that, right???2??

mostlyharmful
2007-10-26, 05:41 PM
Personally I say sod the cloudkill, with meat shield and skill monkey friends you don't need the foresight or celerity and timestop is only required for the combo. Just Forcecage on it's own will win most fights that the combo will do and gives you the chance to do all manor of things to it's recipients including interigation, domination and just simple asficiation which even outsiders that are immune to poisen can't ignore. Forcecage is the basis of the combo and as long as you limit their planer travel if they have it and they can't cast greater dispell (and beat you) or disintergrate you've won and you've got a prisoner.

the combo is over-rated and costly. just forcecage them.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-10-26, 05:45 PM
They can still teleport/ethereal out, so you'll need to put a Dimensional Lock on as well to stop that.
A nit that I feel compelled to pick: Force effects extend to the ethereal plane, so the "victim" cannot ethereal out. Of course, you still need the dimensional lock for other interplanar travel forms.

Everything else: seems good.

Saph
2007-10-26, 05:49 PM
Personally I say sod the cloudkill, with meat shield and skill monkey friends you don't need the foresight or celerity and timestop is only required for the combo. Just Forcecage on it's own will win most fights that the combo will do and gives you the chance to do all manor of things to it's recipients including interigation, domination and just simple asficiation which even outsiders that are immune to poisen can't ignore.

And you'll be doing this to them how? Forcecage in the windowless cell version blocks line of effect, which means that your spells won't work, and it's arguable whether they can even hear you for you to talk to them. And if you use the barred cage version, there are various ways for them to get through the bars.

This is the drawback of Forcecage+Dimension Lock. They can't reach you, but you can't reach them either.

Shhalahr: true, forgot that one.

- Saph

Karsh
2007-10-26, 05:51 PM
Also, since Forcecage is an Evocation spell, it can be replicated at no cost by Greater Shadow Evocation for the miserly wizard.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-10-26, 05:55 PM
Agreed with Mostly Harmful. Forcecage ends the fight for all practical purposes by itself, unless the enemy has Disintegrate in some manner or a Rod of Cancellation (or Negation. I forget which). You haven't killed the enemy, but you can go do whatever the hell you want for two hours per level, except actually kill them. Still vulnerable to Astral or Shadow travel, and the requisite Quickened Dimensional Anchor or Dimension Lock is still vulnerable to Dispel Magic, true. But if you find a target without one of the two counters for it, they're gone.

As for Cloudkill, it's better used for wiping out entire armies of low-HD mooks, anyway. Instant death, no save, AoE, lasts forever. It's not hard to see why certain obsessive Wizard fanboys are in love with it.

Saph
2007-10-26, 05:56 PM
Also, since Forcecage is an Evocation spell, it can be replicated at no cost by Greater Shadow Evocation for the miserly wizard.

This is true, but it's unlikely to do more than delay them. As soon as they make their Will save to disbelieve, they can walk right out.

- Saph

mostlyharmful
2007-10-26, 05:56 PM
And you'll be doing this to them how? Forcecage in the windowless cell version blocks line of effect, which means that your spells won't work, and it's arguable whether they can even hear you for you to talk to them. And if you use the barred cage version, there are various ways for them to get through the bars.

This is the drawback of Forcecage+Dimension Lock. They can't reach you, but you can't reach them either.

Shhalahr: true, forgot that one.

- Saph

This is what greater scrying is for, once you lock them down you can clear out the rest of the dungeon/city/whatever, consolidate your position, refresh your spells and get everyone ready to gangbeat whatever you trapped in there. forcecage is 2hours/level which means a minimum of 26 hours. If a Wizard can't get ready for a CR appropriate critter with their entire party in a full day they should hang up their pointy hat.

Plus all this entails that you care what happens once the forcecage wears out, for all intents and purposes you could be in rino sipping champagne and counting out platinum pieces by the time the spell expieres.

all this isn't to say forcecage is the best use of resources, or even that it's the best level 7 spell, simply that there are occasions when an unescapable box with no save, no spell resistance and no air equates to bypassing a challenging opponent.


also, I tend to think that dimensional barrier is a better spell than quickened dim lock, it's got no save and doesn't need a ranged touch and can be cast after the forcecage because it's a 20 radius effect that doesn't need line of sight.

Ramos
2007-10-26, 05:59 PM
Actually, the Forcecage+Cloudkill combo is utterly useless. Forcecage blocks line of effect so you can't cast cloudkill within it. You need to cast first cloudkill (and dim. lock) and then forcecage. :smallbiggrin:


At high levels, I've been told that Acid Fog (usually maximised and mastered to sonic) cast twice is a much better combo. Why? 12 sonic damage with no save, no SR, no miss chance. What does that do?

A) 12 sonic damage to target. Practically useless.
B) 12 sonic damage to all objects. This results in the following:
1) automatic destruction of all nonmagical items except armor and large weapons the target might carry.
2) automatic destruction of wizard's spell components and cleric's holy symbol.
3) automatic destruction of all scrolls, rods, wands. (less than 10 HP each)
4) automatic destruction of the vast majority of wondrous items (less than 10 HP each)
5) automatic blocking of line of sight for anyone standing in the center.
6) restrict movement
7) distraction to all spellcasting.

So, it automatically burns away 90% of the party's resources, no save. Good for nasty DMs.

Saph
2007-10-26, 06:03 PM
Agreed with Mostly Harmful. Forcecage ends the fight for all practical purposes by itself, unless the enemy has Disintegrate in some manner or a Rod of Cancellation (or Negation. I forget which). You haven't killed the enemy, but you can go do whatever the hell you want for two hours per level, except actually kill them. Still vulnerable to Astral or Shadow travel, and the requisite Quickened Dimensional Anchor or Dimension Lock is still vulnerable to Dispel Magic, true. But if you find a target without one of the two counters for it, they're gone.

But at high levels, virtually every monster in the game DOES have one of those counters to it. It's a good general bet that if the monster is scary enough for you to want to hit it with a Forcecage (rather than just letting the fighter and cleric beat it to death and then looting the body) it'll probably have one of those counters.


As for Cloudkill, it's better used for wiping out entire armies of low-HD mooks, anyway. Instant death, no save, AoE, lasts forever. It's not hard to see why certain obsessive Wizard fanboys are in love with it.

If you're a high-level wizard, why are you going round annihilating small groups of low-HD mooks in the first place? I agree that it's the kind of spell that appeals to wizard fanboys, but it's not much use against any kind of serious high-level challenge - which is what the rest of the party keep you around to deal with.

- Saph

Jasdoif
2007-10-26, 06:07 PM
For some reason - I'm not sure exactly why - the 'forcecage+cloudkill' combo, rather than all the other ones, was the one that got remembered, and now not a week on this forum goes by without people quoting it in threads as though it's a great tactic.The popularity is easy enough to explain.

Cloudkill is extremely efficient in theory. Can do Con damage even if you pass the save, and it lasts 10 rounds per caster level. However, except that the cloud moves away, so you can't concentrate it on a foe by itself. Hence, trapping it in a forcecage.

It's pretty straightforward from here: If you can't get out of the forcecage, aren't immune to the cloudkill, and can't remove either of them, you're going to die. Focuses the goal of the scenario in question...just like your does! Eliminates some of the other questions that tend to come up, like if your save bonus and a choice feat mean you literally can't fail a saving throw.


We'll also ignore the question of how you can keep the 10 minute/level duration Foresight spell up 24 hours a dayOh, this part's easy enough. Metamagic rod of Extend Spell. At CL 18, like if you just got access to 9th-level spells and have one of those CL-boosting ioun stones, an extended foresight lasts for 6 hours straight. Prepare a couple if you like.

Foresight and celerity are ideal for the paranoid lone wizard: Trouble comes up, you can use celerity and greater teleport to get away before they can act against you.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-26, 06:08 PM
You missed Mordenkainen's Disjunction in that combo. That's one of the key components so that magic items and etc. don't work, and so that the wizard won't get any loot at all (but that doesn't matter because the wizard will just Wish for money, or whatever ... like the GM will allow that :smallamused:).

But don't ask me how wizards actually have all of these spells memorized, all at once. Remember, they also have Invoke Magic memorized at all times just in case a rogue with UMD approaches with an Antimagic Field up.

They have to have at least one casting of Time Stop available every day, because all wizards solve everything with Time Stop. Considering how often it's invoked here, I'd think more like two or three Time Stops might be needed ... but at least one.

They always Wish for stuff they need, like to transport travelers or make money, so they need at least one casting of Wish.

Wizards never don't have Foresight active, which at 20th level lasts 200 minutes, or slightly more than three hours. We'll assuming all wizards are loaded with metamagic rods, because I'm told they are, so that can get bumped up to a little more than six hours. We're still probably going to need at least two castings, unless this wizard spends most of his time in leisure (in the safety of an MMM, of course, because all wizards always spend all leisure time there).

So let me tally this up ...

Two Foresights, one Wish (minimum), one Time Stop (minimum), one Invoke Magic, one Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Six 9th-level spells ... minimum. I'm not just pulling these spells out of nowhere, either -- these are all spells I've been told wizards "will just" use whenever faced with this or that challenge, meaning they clearly must have them available at all times for just such an occasion. I've probably missed a few besides, and let's not forget that these are strictly the minimums needed, while about three Time Stops is probably more suitable given how often it's being invoked.

Ramos
2007-10-26, 06:12 PM
If you're a high-level wizard, why are you going round annihilating small groups of low-HD mooks in the first place? I agree that it's the kind of spell that appeals to wizard fanboys, but it's not much use against any kind of serious high-level challenge - which is what the rest of the party keep you around to deal with.

Because the low-HD group of 200 archers in the enemy's army is going to eat the high-level fighter and cleric and rogue for breakfast before they get close? Because said group results in roughly 20 deaths/round for your army?

Most high-level wizards don't shine above anyone else in single fights-the cleric, the rogue and the fighter could kill that dragon too (eventually). What they won't be able to do is survive when 2000+ enemy archers hit at them which you easily do with invisibility-or even kill those 2000+ enemy archers anytime within the next century which again you easily do with sunburst or meteor swarm or by shapechanging into a big, bad demon.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-26, 06:12 PM
But at high levels, virtually every monster in the game DOES have one of those counters to it. It's a good general bet that if the monster is scary enough for you to want to hit it with a Forcecage (rather than just letting the fighter and cleric beat it to death and then looting the body) it'll probably have one of those counters.



If you're a high-level wizard, why are you going round annihilating small groups of low-HD mooks in the first place? I agree that it's the kind of spell that appeals to wizard fanboys, but it's not much use against any kind of serious high-level challenge - which is what the rest of the party keep you around to deal with.

- Saph


Oh and Saph, I've been reading Niriel's diary. It's really well written and it's a lovely idea. I especially like the interspersions of comments from the other gamers that back up your write up of her personality and show what those around you think, not that you have any say over what they post, just saying is all.

Saph
2007-10-26, 06:15 PM
The popularity is easy enough to explain.

Cloudkill is extremely efficient in theory. Can do Con damage even if you pass the save, and it lasts 10 rounds per caster level. However, except that the cloud moves away, so you can't concentrate it on a foe by itself. Hence, trapping it in a forcecage.

It's pretty straightforward from here: If you can't get out of the forcecage, aren't immune to the cloudkill, and can't remove either of them, you're going to die.

But this is exactly the point. At the levels where you can use the full combo, just about every freaking thing you run into is either immune to the combo or has some way of getting out of it. You might find a few squirrels somewhere that you can murder with it, but seriously, they're about the only things (and if they're up a tree you can't get them with the forcecage either).

That's why this combo is useless. It'll take out any enemy, except for the ones you'll actually be fighting.

- Saph

SurlySeraph
2007-10-26, 06:15 PM
At high levels, I've been told that Acid Fog (usually maximised and mastered to sonic) cast twice is a much better combo. Why? 12 sonic damage with no save, no SR, no miss chance. What does that do?

*snipped*

So, it automatically burns away 90% of the party's resources, no save. Good for nasty DMs.

Wait, Acid Fog doesn't work that way! It can't possibly work that way!
*rereads Acid Fog's spell description*
... oh.
That trick makes the guy who created a Living Mordenkainen's Disjunction look like a pretty nice DM.

Saph
2007-10-26, 06:22 PM
Because the low-HD group of 200 archers in the enemy's army is going to eat the high-level fighter and cleric and rogue for breakfast before they get close? Because said group results in roughly 20 deaths/round for your army?

Agreed here - a war scenario is one of the situations where Cloudkill really does shine. But most D&D characters don't fight full military engagements that often.

Even so, you can't get 200 archers with a cloudkill - it's only got a 20' radius and moves at 10' per round. You'll get a good few, but they won't just sit there and let it roll over them.


Oh and Saph, I've been reading Niriel's diary. It's really well written and it's a lovely idea. I especially like the interspersions of comments from the other gamers that back up your write up of her personality and show what those around you think, not that you have any say over what they post, just saying is all.

Oh, glad you like it. :) I've been writing it for ages, as the campaign's been going for months and months. The other players all tell me they enjoy reading the writeups, but it's nice you like it too. :smallsmile:

- Saph

Jasdoif
2007-10-26, 06:24 PM
Also, since Forcecage is an Evocation spell, it can be replicated at no cost by Greater Shadow Evocation for the miserly wizard.It may be problematic to get a cloudkill effect to believe in the illusion, though. Without that, the cloud will just float through the illusion.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-10-26, 06:31 PM
Shadow Conjuration is, well, a Shadow spell.

Quoth the SRD:
Shadow

A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

The forcecage is definitely real enough to stop the cloudkill.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-26, 06:34 PM
Deleted my post.

Jasdoif
2007-10-26, 06:36 PM
Shadow Conjuration is, well, a Shadow spell.

Quoth the SRD:
Shadow

A shadow spell creates something that is partially real from extradimensional energy. Such illusions can have real effects. Damage dealt by a shadow illusion is real.

The forcecage is definitely real enough to stop the cloudkill.Except shadow evocation (which is needed since Forcecage is evocation) has this:


Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Objects automatically succeed on their Will saves against this spell.Since cloudkill is conjuration (creation), it actually makes something; since the cloud isn't a creature it must be an object; since it's an object it automatically succeeds on its Will save; since it succeeds on its Will save the fake-forcecage effect doesn't affect it....So the cloud floats right through it.

Why yes, I am horribly bored. Why do you ask? :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-10-26, 07:06 PM
Two Foresights, one Wish (minimum), one Time Stop (minimum), one Invoke Magic, one Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Six 9th-level spells ... minimum. I'm not just pulling these spells out of nowhere, either -- these are all spells I've been told wizards "will just" use whenever faced with this or that challenge, meaning they clearly must have them available at all times for just such an occasion. I've probably missed a few besides, and let's not forget that these are strictly the minimums needed, while about three Time Stops is probably more suitable given how often it's being invoked.

Well let's see,

Foresight Extended (Yes, a level 20 Wizard has the Rod.) is six hours. Yes, a Wizard can spend all but six hours a day in a MMM.

Wish is only used when you need it, it's prepared on Non-combat days or days in which the only combat involves transporting someone to you.

I have seen exactly one poster talk about using Mordenkainen's Disjunction. It wasn't me.

Even though I personally wouldn't always say one needs Invoke Magic, nothing stops a Wizard from having the Feat Alacritous Cognition, which would allow them to turn another level 9 spell into Invoke Magic when they need it.

And my favorite, Time Stop. Using Archmage levels, (but I'm sure no level 20 Wizard ever takes those right?) you can trade out a 9th level slot and a 5th level slot for two uses as a SLA of Time Stop. That's worth it.

So now we have

Foresight
2 Time Stops

For the low cost of 2 9th level slots.

That leaves the others to be Wishes/Disjunctions/Black Blades or spontaneously converted to Invoke Magic. (Or to be traded off for even more uses via Archmage SLAs.)

Oh, and let's not go down the "but all Wizards don't spend time in a MMM!" Line again. For about the billionth time, we only care about the Batman's because they are the ones that stay alive and accomplish their goals.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-26, 07:11 PM
Well let's see,

Foresight Extended (Yes, a level 20 Wizard has the Rod.) is six hours. Yes, a Wizard can spend all but six hours a day in a MMM.




A wizard only casting a single extended Foresight a day seems a little bit unrealistic to me for most games and DMs with the PC and companions only out and about 6 or fewer hours a day and hiding out for the rest in a MMM (or Rope Trick).

In town between adventures or on adventures I would thinks most would level 20 wizards would devote at least two spell slots to daily Foresight castings.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-26, 07:12 PM
The something more modest and effective: Rope Trick. Touché.

Kaelik
2007-10-26, 07:18 PM
A wizard only casting a single extended Foresight a day seems a little bit unrealistic to me for most games and DMs with the PC only out and about 6 or fewer hours a day and hiding out for the rest in a MMM.

And why is that? Besides that I have plenty of 9th level slots left for another Foresight, I don't see it as hiding out, what do I need to accomplish that I can't get done in Six hours?

Citizen Joe
2007-10-26, 07:20 PM
Someone needs to quote this every time someone mentions Time Stop.



While the time stop is in effect, other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell. A spell that affects an area and has a duration longer than the remaining duration of the time stop have their normal effects on other creatures once the time stop ends.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-26, 07:22 PM
You forget Forcecage and all that jazz target AREAS, 'aight? So the combo is perfectly viable.

BTW, Saph, could you tell me whadza belldandy?

Roderick_BR
2007-10-26, 07:23 PM
That's just an example of what COULD be done. As you said, there are even better things to do.

"a) aren't immune to poison"
Not many things are
"b) can't cast spells"
Not many things can
"c) don't have any powerful spell-like-abilities"
The ones that have, you can beat with a better combo
"d) aren't Huge or larger"
Now, this is true. You can only get up to large. Anything under an ogre's size is destroyed.
"e) don't have any magic items that'll counter it."
A ring of counterspell, cape of mounteblank, and maybe something to give resistance/immunity to poison. Not an usual combination.

This is just showing how a "not optimized" combo can beat many things. Now image the optimized combos. :smallfrown:

Citizen Joe
2007-10-26, 07:28 PM
Also, right around level 9, fighters start running into Wall of Force spells (level 5 wizard spell). Since that is incredibly annoying, by level 11, they'll likely have a Disintegrate (Level 6 wizard spell) ring (or rod of cancellation). So, by level 17+ it is VERY likely they'll just disintegrate the cage and walk out.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-26, 07:29 PM
You know a ring of desintegrate is tremendously costly and unbalanced, 'aight? What you do is get a wiz to cast for you, actually.

Saph
2007-10-26, 07:35 PM
BTW, Saph, could you tell me whadza belldandy?

A character from a manga and anime series called Ah! My Goddess that I always liked. :) Here's an article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belldandy) on her.


"a) aren't immune to poison"
Not many things are
"b) can't cast spells"
Not many things can
"c) don't have any powerful spell-like-abilities"
The ones that have, you can beat with a better combo
"d) aren't Huge or larger"
Now, this is true. You can only get up to large. Anything under an ogre's size is destroyed.
"e) don't have any magic items that'll counter it."
A ring of counterspell, cape of mounteblank, and maybe something to give resistance/immunity to poison. Not an usual combination.

The point is, finding an opponent of CR 17-20 or above which is all of those things is almost impossible. Try and find an enemy from the Monster Manuals of CR 17+ which would be defeated by the Forcecage/Cloudkill combo. There's probably one somewhere, but I haven't spotted it yet.

- Saph

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-26, 07:37 PM
OOOOOOH! Got it now.

BTW, There's more than likely a metamagic that enlarges area, so you could use that. And the sonic acid fog is, really, a much better combo than cloudkill.

Citizen Joe
2007-10-26, 07:45 PM
Ring of Disintegrate with 50 charges and command word would be just under 60K
Same but 1 charge per day would be about 24K (about half of the WBL for level 11... I think).

Expensive yes... but when walls of force start showing up, you'll be happy to have it.

As an emergency you can also keep a rod of cancellation (11K) on hand, that works too.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-26, 07:49 PM
Rod of cancellation = yes.

Rings of Disintegrate, of any kind = big no no. The combat potential of this is terrifying, it's the reason Sphere of Ultimate Cheese and Destruction is level 9.

Saph
2007-10-26, 07:49 PM
You don't need expensive custom disintegrate items. Get a Pick of Piercing from the Magic Item Compendium. It costs 9,308 gold and 3/day lets you destroy any force effect with a touch attack, taking out anything from a resilient sphere to a forcecage.

Like I said, I seriously doubt it's worth the money, but if you absolutely can't stand the thought of being forcecaged, that's the item to buy.

- Saph

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-26, 08:50 PM
And why is that? Besides that I have plenty of 9th level slots left for another Foresight, I don't see it as hiding out, what do I need to accomplish that I can't get done in Six hours?

Sure but your example was you only take one and hide out the other 18 hours of the day.

A high level wizard is basically unbeatable in game if he limits himself to a single encounter or two a day. That type of playing style has already broken the game since that is not how the game is designed to be played only taking one quarter or one half the standard encounters.

Having fun on the adventures if that is an acceptable practice in your campaigns.

My point is you are the player and IMO No Player should be able to make that statement only needing 6 hours a day regarding a good campaign by his DM.

In most games you would normally need to take Foresight at least twice a day extended with a meta rod or other magic item while adventuring if you want 100% full Foresight protection because the campaign would not take a time out just because the PCs are.

In town between adventures a wizard should probably take Foresight at least twice a day since you would normally ever face even a single dailya encounter. If you say that is what you are doing between adventures then normally nothing happens to your PC.

The game is Dungeons and Dragons not Wizards hiding out in MMMs.

Use some of the other spells. Contingency and Moment of Prescience and that insight bonus equal to your caster level to any single attack roll, opposed ability or skill check or saving throw. Alternatively you can even apply it to your AC against a single attack even if flat footed. Have one of the other fullcasters cast Foresight.

I don't understand why you think your DM has to throw the party the balanced encounters to you day after day in the 6 hour span you choose to enter his campaign world and his adventure instead of taking a time out. He should putting those other 18 hours to good use. IMO most players can not realistically get everything they need to do in an adventure done in 6 hours a day increments day after day taking daily 18 hour time outs.

Your wizard PC is one of the most powerful beings in the campaign world and it sounds like he is afraid to go outside his MMM for more than 6 hours a day while adventuring or between adventures because he chooses to not memorize two foresight spells a day. IMO that is not an acceptable playing style in most campaigns.

What kind of challenges is any wizard PC overcoming using these kind of cheesy tactics on a day to day basis? Wizard's of the Coast designed the spell so you would basically have to take it twice a day if you want full protection unless acquiring magic items or specials that would enhance the duration of provide the effect.

Let one of the other full casters cast Foresight for the other half of the day you are outside your MMM and use up some of your other spell slots.

The game is supposed to be based on having fun overcoming balanced encounters and challenges. Most DMs aren't really trying to kill your PCs or they would throw tougher BBEGs at them and play them smarter.

There is a difference between a party needing to take a break after using up most of their spells and party resources in an occassional bad encounter when you need to and taking cheesy time outs on a regular basis while adventuring day after day because you routinely choose to only memorize a single Foresight spell for the day so you do not face challenges other than above average to full spellcasting strength.

If there is no risk in game you are cheating yourself and the other players of a better gaming experience.

IMO it's cheesy to build a level 20 wizard and say I only only take a single Foresight spell during the day even when I'm adventuring and I hide out for the rest of the day and make my buddies join me.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-10-26, 09:48 PM
I'll admit, when I say that Forcecage ends a fight, it only works against a small number of opponents. This is good. If it beat everything, it would be overpowered. If it beats some things all of the time, it's just useful. Any non-caster, unless they happen to be prepared for this eventuality with magic items, of Large size or smaller is taken out of the picture for days while you go around and do whatever. It's not going to work on stuff out of the Monster Manual at particularly high levels, I admit. It will, however, work on many humanoids, and it's an effective nonlethal removal strategy for them. The lethal version involving Cloudkill, as you said, costs a little more than it's worth in resources.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-26, 09:49 PM
Though you can use the substituted sonic acid fog to great effect, since I think only slaad have sonic DR.

Nowhere Girl
2007-10-26, 09:54 PM
Good solution to a wizard who only takes 6 hours out of a day:

GM: Okay, you can start at about one-half or two-thirds the level of the rest of the party if that will be your playstyle, to account for your never getting nearly as much done in a day as everyone else.

Better solution:

GM: MMM and Rope Trick don't exist.

I've never understood why they should, anyway. What do either of those spells add to a game? What does wizards having the ability to blink out of reality and go hide in a "neener neener, you can't touch me" special place do for anyone, other than twinky powergamers who like to ruin plots?

Sadly, both of the above solutions are strictly houserules, as per RAW, at least, spells like that do exist. I think it goes right back to the old point: primary casters can only be balanced with heavy houseruling. Which, of course, is the point a lot of people on these boards try to make.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-26, 09:59 PM
Actually, the Forcecage+Cloudkill combo is utterly useless. Forcecage blocks line of effect so you can't cast cloudkill within it. You need to cast first cloudkill (and dim. lock) and then forcecage. :smallbiggrin:


At high levels, I've been told that Acid Fog (usually maximised and mastered to sonic) cast twice is a much better combo. Why? 12 sonic damage with no save, no SR, no miss chance. What does that do?

A) 12 sonic damage to target. Practically useless.
B) 12 sonic damage to all objects. This results in the following:
1) automatic destruction of all nonmagical items except armor and large weapons the target might carry.
2) automatic destruction of wizard's spell components and cleric's holy symbol.
3) automatic destruction of all scrolls, rods, wands. (less than 10 HP each)
4) automatic destruction of the vast majority of wondrous items (less than 10 HP each)
5) automatic blocking of line of sight for anyone standing in the center.
6) restrict movement
7) distraction to all spellcasting.

So, it automatically burns away 90% of the party's resources, no save. Good for nasty DMs.
Except there's this one little iffy section about that....


Items Surviving after a Saving Throw: Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.

If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.(Emphasis added)

No saving throw, so you don't roll a 1 on it. The text of Acid Fog does not explicitly state that it affects attended objects, nor does it explicitly state that it does not. There's wiggle room. Some DM's will say that every object includes attended ones; others will not.

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-26, 10:12 PM
Man, you beat me too it. What Jack_Smith said.
:smallamused:

Jack_Simth
2007-10-26, 10:27 PM
Man, you beat me too it. What Jack_Smith said.
:smallamused:
I actually suspect most DM's will not have it affect attended objects, simply for all the damage rolls you'd need for a normal casting (how many objects does a high level character carry?) and how badly that would crimp a lot of characters.

Oh, and you had plenty of time to respond - there were four hours between the post I quoted and my quoting of it.

As a side note, it's always interesting to see who does and does not notice.
:smallamused:

Setra
2007-10-26, 10:47 PM
No saving throw, so you don't roll a 1 on it. The text of Acid Fog does not explicitly state that it affects attended objects, nor does it explicitly state that it does not. There's wiggle room. Some DM's will say that every object includes attended ones; others will not.
Technically.. it does.


Acid fog creates a billowing mass of misty vapors similar to that produced by a solid fog spell. In addition to slowing creatures down and obscuring sight, this spell’s vapors are highly acidic. Each round on your turn, starting when you cast the spell, the fog deals 2d6 points of acid damage to each creature and object within it.


each
–adjective
1. every one of two or more considered individually or one by one: each stone in a building; a hallway with a door at each end.
–pronoun
2. every one individually; each one: Each had a different solution to the problem.
–adverb

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-26, 10:56 PM
That is heinous if you're right. You are probably wrong, but if you're right, that is heinous. I am perfectly happy Rule 0-ing that, so I'll let someone else argue the point with you.

Reel On, Love
2007-10-26, 11:23 PM
It's wrong.

The "attended objects ONLY take damage if..." rule supercedes the spell's "damages each object" rule--the spell would need to explicitly break the rule to actually damage attended objects.

What's more, clothing, pouches, and the like, give the things inside them full cover from the sonic fog.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-26, 11:34 PM
Technically.. it does.
Burning Hands specifies that it set fire to flammable objects, with no listing as to whether or not they're attended. Your cloak and clothing will usually be considered "flammable".

Fireball specifies that it damages creatures and unattended objects; is that cape you're wearing immune to you rolling a natural 1 on your reflex save because it's attended and Fireball specifies only creatures and unattended objects under it's damage list?

Lightning Bolt specifies that it affects objects in it's path, without mentioning whether or not they are attended - does this mean that every time you get hit by a lightning bolt, you lost most (if not all) your items (as the spell description says it damages objects, but does not specify whether or not they can be attended)?

Ice Storm specifies that it deals damage to creatures - is that unattended sheet of tissue-thin, nonmagical paper stretched between two poles therefore immune as the spell doesn't list objects as something it damages?

Cone of Cold does not specify objects or creatures - it just says it deals damage in an area. Does this mean it doesn't damage my character, as Cone of Cold doesn't list creatures under the things that take damage?

Freezing Sphere specifies that the burst does damage to creatures, with no mention of objects - does this mean that it doesn't do a thing to that campfire it landed in?

Go too literal, and two characters (don't need any particular class or race combination) can crash D&D. A readies an action to move to the side when B charges to within a particular range, then B charges. After a particular distance, B is committed to the charge. A moves, so B is no longer going in a straight line. A charge must be in a straight line, and a charge must be directly towards the opponent, and B is charging - the situation has caused a contradiction. There is no as-written resolution (although a DM can easily simply have B "charge" the square A used to be in, that's technically a houserule).

Acid Fog does not explicitly label the objects affected as attended, not attended, of both types, or of neither type.

The language used to write D&D is not tight. With the term "explicitly" as I'm intending it's use, the spell would need to call out that it affects both attended and non-attended objects for your interpretation.

We have a specific case that is not perfectly clear, and a general rule that could potentially clarify it in a way that prevents equipment-dependent classes from becoming one-action, no-save, no-SR gimped into uselessness, what do you go with?

I might technically be rule-0ing this at the table when I say it doesn't work the way you seem to think it does - but I'm fairly secure in saying my position is a good one, and is at least reasonable under the current ruleset.

Setra
2007-10-27, 12:14 AM
I wasn't saying it would, I was trying to say it could be interpreted that way.

Hence the use of the word 'technically'.

Besides, if the DM is the one using this on your party, as was suggested, I don't think what you say will matter :smalltongue:

Kaelik
2007-10-27, 01:35 AM
In most games you would normally need to take Foresight at least twice a day extended with a meta rod or other magic item while adventuring if you want 100% full Foresight protection because the campaign would not take a time out just because the PCs are.

And what would go on in that time period that A wizard couldn't have dealt with before or after? A party needs to take a break anyways, the length of the break isn't all that significant when compared to how much you can accomplish in 6 hours.


I don't understand why you think your DM has to throw the party the balanced encounters to you day after day in the 6 hour span you choose to enter his campaign world and his adventure instead of taking a time out. He should putting those other 18 hours to good use. IMO most players can not realistically get everything they need to do in an adventure done in 6 hours a day increments day after day taking daily 18 hour time outs.

I don't know what kind of game you are playing, but if you have a lvl 20 Batman Wizard the DMs job is not to "provide encounters" his job is to create a world which you then do what you want to in. (Of course, I view that as the appropriate job of a DM at every level and party optimization standard.)


The game is supposed to be based on having fun overcoming balanced encounters and challenges. Most DMs aren't really trying to kill your PCs or they would throw tougher BBEGs at them and play them smarter.

Here's the problem: We are talking about super Batman Wizards at lvl 20. No one plays level 20, no one plays perfect Batman. We don't do this precisely because a perfect Batman is game breaking. We play other levels and other classes and imperfect Wizards to have fun.

What people play in the game is different from what the rules actually create if you envision the rules as simulating a universe.


GM: Okay, you can start at about one-half or two-thirds the level of the rest of the party if that will be your playstyle, to account for your never getting nearly as much done in a day as everyone else.

The problem is that before they have access to this level of protection they adventure as much as anyone else, and once they have access to teleport they accomplish more in 6 hours then anyone else does in a day.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-27, 05:47 AM
And what would go on in that time period that A wizard couldn't have dealt with before or after? A party needs to take a break anyways, the length of the break isn't all that significant when compared to how much you can accomplish in 6 hours.

I don't know what kind of game you are playing, but if you have a lvl 20 Batman Wizard the DMs job is not to "provide encounters" his job is to create a world which you then do what you want to in. (Of course, I view that as the appropriate job of a DM at every level and party optimization standard.)

Here's the problem: We are talking about super Batman Wizards at lvl 20. No one plays level 20, no one plays perfect Batman. We don't do this precisely because a perfect Batman is game breaking. We play other levels and other classes and imperfect Wizards to have fun.

What people play in the game is different from what the rules actually create if you envision the rules as simulating a universe.


That's just it the PC doesn't know locked up in a MMM even with high level divinations particularly in a timeline driven adventure.

Actions and Time is what the PCs are giving the DM and the BBEG in game when they choose to adopt the single Foresight spellcasting strategy a day and hide out in a MMM for 18 hours or more.

It depends on the DM but it's usually more interesting for the PCs to interact in the campaign world than hang around hiding in a MMM.

Time at the table and time in the campaign world don't normally pass at the same rate. A 6 hour period in game can sometimes take less than a minute of real world time like an information check learning one of the pieces of the puzzle. Finding the right person to talk to.

I concede that PCs can occassionally but not consistently get quite a lot done in a 6 hour time period in game but some of those little things take up time. Having to be in more than two places during a day or meet more than one NPC a day in a non hack and slay. An Elminster, Mordenkainen or ruler who doesn't normally tailor his personal schedule to the PC's 6 hour day.

It's the DM's job to write the play and set the stage. In most games the DM isn't trying to permanently kill the PCs. At this level everyone in the party should have a Greater Ressurection insurance policy if the party is completely wiped out.

Many high level adventures have some kind of basic time line. Role playing and monitoring playing 20 or a hundred plus questions hiding out in a MMM so you can one shot the BBEG generally isn't fun for the DM or PCs.

Good DMs adapt their adventure based on PC interaction in the adventure. PCs choosing to sit out entire scenes of the adventure in a MMM should face increasingly tougher challenges since they are basically choosing to give Time and Actions to the BBEG.

I disagree and I believe just the opposite. It is the DMs job to be testing the PCs and bringing on his best campaign something to challenge level 20 PCs.

A true level 20 Batman wizard is supposed to be the best of the best. He is also supposed to be part of a team even if it is an all wizard team or full caster team.

Choosing to cast Foresight a single time a day and hide out for rest of the day adventuring isn't bringing your best game to table. At these levels of play if you make a mistake and die there should be someone ready to bring you back with a True Resurrection so you are only out a little gold and if you are lucky you get to recover many of your cherished magic items in game roleplaying.

If a PC has a level 20 Batman wizard normally in most campaigns it isn't the DMs job to create a world he can run amuck in where your PC can do anything he wants. That's normally when the PC retires when he gets to do whatever he wants.

No one plays a perfect Batman wizard because we are human and people make mistakes on top of that few Players or DMs have that high of an intelligence. Very doubtful anyone has it correspondingly augmented by intelligence enhancing magic items.


Only being able to handle it one or two encounters a day or expecting them all to happen in 6 hours or less day after day isn't being the best of the best. He should be facing professional challenges not because it is supposed to a higher level game.

Gathering information normally takes time because PCs don't always and consistently ask the right questions even using high level divinations. Most Dms don't role play taking days of playing 100 questions till you have a complete handle on the situation particularly in an intrigue type campaign.

Some adventures are built around a timeline like the Apocalypse Stone or The Well of Souls. On the Equinox or when the planes align or such and such date the BBEG will accomplish his goal. Becoming a power, destroying the kingdom or establishing the permanent gate to the Abyss or the Nine Hells.

CRs are based on the party encountering an average number of encounters to engage their resources. If your resources are not being challenged via this tactic the CR challenges should be ramped by a few degrees under the same premise that a well prepared encounter can increase the CR of a BBEG. A partly of level 20 adventurers who face fewer than average encounters routinely adpoting these kinds of tactics should face tougher CR encounters in game with lesser CR treasure for their level which challenge the PCs.

A group of level 20 PCs should be able to survive four separate level 19 -21 CR encounters in day. The first should be the easiest normally when the party is at full strength with each subsequent challenge becoming increasingly difficult. Normally the fourth will be the hardest because the PCs should have expended resources in game while acquiring other resources in game.

Here's the other thing the other players have to take a time out also normally and don't get a chance to shine. In many ways it is akin to a game of basketball or football where the PC wizard has basically taken the ball everyone is playing the game with home if everyone doesn't play by his rules.

If other party members are out in the campaign world doing things it kind of defeats the whole reason for the strategy. They usually know where the PC wizard is or the entrance to the MMM so they can join him later or they know where to meet up in game later. A wizard locked up in his MMM isn't always aware of what is happening out in the campaign world.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-10-27, 07:00 AM
On the item survival thingy:


Items Surviving after a Saving Throw
Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.


The above refers to items surviving after saving throws, not after attacks in general. A spell that does not allow saves does not fall under the above. In addition, it specifically excludes spells whose descriptive texts specify otherwise-that means, they specify attended objects being affected, e.g. Disjunction.

See Fireball:


A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

Since the damage of the fireball only applies to creatures and unattended objects and fireball does have a saving throw, it doesn't affect attended items. (except on a 1)

See cone of cold:

Cone of cold creates an area of extreme cold, originating at your hand and extending outward in a cone. It drains heat, dealing 1d6 points of cold damage per caster level (maximum 15d6).
It does not specify that damage is dealt to objects but does have a saving throw-thus attended objects are not affected (except on a 1)

See Ice Storm:

Great magical hailstones pound down for 1 full round, dealing 3d6 points of bludgeoning damage and 2d6 points of cold damage to every creature in the area
No damage to objects at all-only to creatures.

See Lightning Bolt:

You release a powerful stroke of electrical energy that deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to each creature within its area. The bolt begins at your fingertips.

The lightning bolt sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in its path. It can melt metals with a low melting point, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, or bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the bolt may continue beyond the barrier if the spell’s range permits; otherwise, it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

It does damage to creatures and objects in its path-but it does have a save. The rule of attended items and saving throws applies.

Now, see Acid Fog:

Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Acid fog creates a billowing mass of misty vapors similar to that produced by a solid fog spell. In addition to slowing creatures down and obscuring sight, this spell’s vapors are highly acidic. Each round on your turn, starting when you cast the spell, the fog deals 2d6 points of acid damage to each creature and object within it.


It damages both creatures and objects and does not have a saving throw. The rule of attended items surviving a saving throw does not apply-they take damage normally. THAT is why it is a 6th level spell with so low damage. Because it is terribly destructive to objects too.

Arakune
2007-10-27, 07:10 AM
A nit that I feel compelled to pick: Force effects extend to the ethereal plane, so the "victim" cannot ethereal out. Of course, you still need the dimensional lock for other interplanar travel forms.

Everything else: seems good.

The force cage, not the poison. They can't go anywhere, but don't die in a horrible way (if you put poisoning death in your top 10 worst death list).

Jack_Simth
2007-10-27, 09:28 AM
I wasn't saying it would, I was trying to say it could be interpreted that way.

Hence the use of the word 'technically'.

Besides, if the DM is the one using this on your party, as was suggested, I don't think what you say will matter :smalltongue:
Fair enough. I'm generally DMing of late, though, so.... :smalltongue:

Belial_the_Leveler, you appear to have missed the point (at least of my post - you didn't quote anyone, and you didn't list a name for who you were responding to, so I can't be certain it was me.... but you refer to several of the spells I specifically call out, so for now I'll assume you're referring to me), which was it's a bad idea to take things too literally, as you appear to be doing.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-10-27, 09:36 AM
I was refering to you-but if I quoted both your post (or parts of it) and the relevant spells my own post would be too complicated.

That said, I am always taking things as close to the RAW as possible IF (and that's a pretty big if) flavor supports it and IF (another big if) it doesn't lead to overpoweredness. The Acid Fog offence both makes sense flavor-wise for items to melt within a constant acidic fog you can't evade and it is more useful for the DM against munchkins than it is for munchkins against monsters.

Ofcourse, I usually prefer an automatically acid admixtured Transmute Rock to Lava. 40d6 no save, no SR damage that also affects items is fun.

Starbuck_II
2007-10-27, 10:47 AM
Ofcourse, I usually prefer an automatically acid admixtured Transmute Rock to Lava. 40d6 no save, no SR damage that also affects items is fun.

Wait, Lava is 20d6 I thought...but only for full immersion.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-27, 11:19 AM
Even if you only have one Foresight, the Wizard will be using the combo only on the BBEG, rather than any smalltime lackeys. "Screw this. Empowered Maximised Ray of Enfeeblement. Have fun wrestling that wuss, Krog."

Above a certain level, teleport covers any kind of transport, unless it's to a spot immune to teleportation.

Belial_the_Leveler
2007-10-27, 11:24 AM
Really? In the spell slot allotment thread, I only saw two teleports memorised-and no cloudkill...

Reptilius
2007-10-27, 11:32 AM
Wait, Lava is 20d6 I thought...but only for full immersion.

It is. Thus the Acid Admixture. 20d6 fire+20d6 acid.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-27, 11:47 AM
I was refering to you-but if I quoted both your post (or parts of it) and the relevant spells my own post would be too complicated.

Hence why I also mentioned that you didn't use my name.


That said, I am always taking things as close to the RAW as possible IF (and that's a pretty big if) flavor supports it
You mean like how you mentioned that the hailstones of Ice Storm don't damage flimsy, obviously-in-the-way objects?

and IF (another big if) it doesn't lead to overpoweredness. The Acid Fog offence both makes sense flavor-wise for items to melt within a constant acidic fog you can't evade and it is more useful for the DM against munchkins than it is for munchkins against monsters.

Melting munchkins is not the way to discourage them. They tend to return more munchkinny than ever (you've just demonstrated that their character was not strong enough to do well in your campaign - so they munchkin MORE, not less).

Plus, it's a large area effect - in a dungeon environment, it's kinda tricky to catch just the munchkin of the party in a way that makes sense for your opponents. Running things this way, you're liable to punish the non-munchkins in the party at the same time.

Further, a spell that destroys the loot is going to be avoided by NPC's for much the same reason it's avoided by PC's - they want the loot, too (usually).


Ofcourse, I usually prefer an automatically acid admixtured Transmute Rock to Lava. 40d6 no save, no SR damage that also affects items is fun.
Ah, yes a Die spell. You start pulling out these things that you "prefer" and you're complaining about munchkins?

Chronos
2007-10-27, 01:53 PM
And if you use the barred cage version, there are various ways for them to get through the bars. Including a Potion of Gaseous Form, which costs half as much as the Forcecage does.

On the Acid Cloud thing, do remember that neither acid nor sonic bypass hardness, unless otherwise specified, and there are a lot of materials which have 12 or more hardness.

And Batman has a choice between spending almost all of his time in an extradimensional space, and having a Contingency Teleport on himself when he goes out (another thing which any sensible wizard does). You need to maintain some sort of stronghold (on the Material Plane; Teleport can't take you to other planes) to 'port to, and if you want to keep the mishap chance low (Greater Teleport is too high level for Contingency), you have to make a home of that stronghold.

Oh, and if you want a simple houserule which will prevent abuse of MMM, one option is to just bring back the old 2nd edition rule (which now survives only in regards to Bags of Holding and Portable Holes, and a cryptic mention in Rope Trick) about bringing one extradimensional space into another. Now, if a wizard wants to spend most of his time in an extradimensional space, he's limited in loot to what he can carry on his person (sans Handy Haversack).

Jack_Simth
2007-10-27, 04:43 PM
Oh, and if you want a simple houserule which will prevent abuse of MMM, one option is to just bring back the old 2nd edition rule (which now survives only in regards to Bags of Holding and Portable Holes, and a cryptic mention in Rope Trick) about bringing one extradimensional space into another. Now, if a wizard wants to spend most of his time in an extradimensional space, he's limited in loot to what he can carry on his person (sans Handy Haversack).

There's actually a fairly easy way around that... if you don't mind being nongood: Animate Dead. Kill something strong, animate it, have it carry your stuff. Problem solved.

For a nonevil method, Craft a golem or other high-strength construct. More expensive, though.

Chronos
2007-10-27, 05:03 PM
There's actually a fairly easy way around that... if you don't mind being nongood: Animate Dead. Kill something strong, animate it, have it carry your stuff. Problem solved.Can you fit something big enough to carry your entire library, all your laboratory equipment, etc. into a Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's Mansion? Plus, if you use a golem, you have to have the golem laboratory before you can make the golem to lug it around.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-27, 05:20 PM
Can you fit something big enough to carry your entire library, all your laboratory equipment, etc. into a Rope Trick or Mordenkainen's Mansion? Plus, if you use a golem, you have to have the golem laboratory before you can make the golem to lug it around.
A Rope Trick houses 8 creatures, regardless of size (rope is one) and the rope itself can deal with 16,000 pounds at once. I think you're covered there pretty easy, so long as you're not looking for more than a few thousand pounds of stuff. An Ape skeletons (4 HD) has a strength score of 21 - at size Large, it's got a heavy load of 920 pounds. You can fit yourself, your familiar, the rope, and five Ape Skeletons in a Rope Trick. Not counting the stuff you carry, or your familiar carries, that's 4600 pounds of stuff. If you use Zombies instead of skeletons, they've got more strength, with a max load of 1,200 pounds each, so 6,000 for five of them. You should be fine, really.

Mordenkainen's Mansion does not list a weight or limit, just a size limit (and that is only for the mansion itself). The entry is specified at 4 feet wide and 8 feet high - most horses will fit through that without much issue (outside of combat), and a zombie heavy horse (a large, strength-18 quadruped) has a maximum load of 900 pounds - and you can have basically as many of them as you'll need. A zombie heavy warhorse is a large, strength 20 quadruped, which thus has a maximum load of 1200 pounds again.

Okay, yeah - you'll want something smaller for when you're traipsing through a dungeon... but really, it shouldn't be that bad. How much weight do your characters lug around?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-27, 05:24 PM
Double Post

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-27, 05:25 PM
A Rope Trick houses 8 creatures, regardless of size (rope is one) and the rope itself can deal with 16,000 pounds at once. I think you're covered there pretty easy, so long as you're not looking for more than a few thousand pounds of stuff. An Ape skeletons (4 HD) has a strength score of 21 - at size Large, it's got a heavy load of 920 pounds. You can fit yourself, your familiar, the rope, and five Ape Skeletons in a Rope Trick. Not counting the stuff you carry, or your familiar carries, that's 4600 pounds of stuff. If you use Zombies instead of skeletons, they've got more strength, with a max load of 1,200 pounds each, so 6,000 for five of them. You should be fine, really.


What about the hassles of packing and unpacking it on a daily basis?

Depending on your level and wealth you could make a Daerns Instant Fortress for 55,000 GP market which would do the trick for a library and lab. Still a bit pricey except for high level games with the Craft Wonderous feat.

Going back a few years the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook let you craft Wonderous Architecture. (Normally large, heavy, permanent enchantments to structures that didn't get moved around most of the time and basically gave you a 50% price break on creation costs.

This could help from page 78 of the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook:

The Hole of Hiding was a permanent Rope Trick set into the ceiling of a room. It required the Craft Wonderous Item feat, Rope Trick and a CL3 with a market price of 3,000 GP for the permanent location. Making it portable would increase the price to 6,000 GP market since the original price was based on it being a permanent fixed enchantment in a stronghold space. Still pretty cheap when you consider the utility it provides.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-27, 05:46 PM
What about the hassles of packing and unpacking it on a daily basis?

You only need to unpack the stuff you actually use, you realize. For moving it around, you just leave it on the zombie or skeleton and order it to follow you. Same goes for the construct, but those are much more expensive ... although Shield Guardians and similar can be well worth it anyway. You just pack and unpack things as you need them, much like when you're camping or hiking.


Depending on your level and wealth you could make a Daerns Instant Fortress for 55,000 GP market which would do the trick for a library and lab. Still a bit pricey except for high level games with the Craft Wonderous feat.

There's this tinsy little line in that item, though: "It cannot be deactivated unless it is empty."

The fortress can't be used as a traveling storehouse.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-10-27, 05:52 PM
You only need to unpack the stuff you actually use, you realize. For moving it around, you just leave it on the zombie or skeleton and order it to follow you. Same goes for the construct, but those are much more expensive ... although Shield Guardians and similar can be well worth it anyway. You just pack and unpack things as you need them, much like when you're camping or hiking.

There's this tinsy little line in that item, though: "It cannot be deactivated unless it is empty."

The fortress can't be used as a traveling storehouse.

Don't forget Shrink Item for all that moving stuff around. Have a few nice Captain's Sea Trunks and a Portable working desk/library for your most utilized books.


Shrink Item
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration: One day/level; see text
Saving Throw: Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

You are able to shrink one nonmagical item (if it is within the size limit) to 1/16 of its normal size in each dimension (to about 1/4,000 the original volume and mass). This change effectively reduces the object’s size by four categories. Optionally, you can also change its now shrunken composition to a clothlike one. Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface or by a word of command from the original caster. Even a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell. Restoring the shrunken object to its normal size and composition ends the spell.

Shrink item can be made permanent with a permanency spell, in which case the affected object can be shrunk and expanded an indefinite number of times, but only by the original caster.


IMO it would be reasonable to let a caster shrink a trunk with materials inside it as a single object since a burning fire and its fuel can be shrunk by this spell.
_______

You could enchant the Daern's Instant Fortress with a Hold of Hiding Wonderous Architecture from the Stronghold Builder's Guide for 3,000 GP market to do the trick.

You could even enchant the Rope or the Hole with basic Intelligence to pull the rope up when you instruct it to and to lower itself when you give it a certain hand signal.

the_tick_rules
2007-10-28, 12:55 AM
it is an effective combo, against people who don't see it comin. but if your wizard has been doing this combo for a while, which he'd probably would, would allow someone who does there homework to let him cast this combo on him, have it fail, and give the person enough time to wail the wizard while he tries to recover.

Aquillion
2007-10-28, 01:18 AM
Here's a better combo against anything that can't fly, isn't excessively big, and is incapable of Plane Shift or a similar ability:

Time Stop.
Reverse Gravity.
Toss a Portable Hole onto the ceiling.
After time restarts and the enemy 'falls' into the hole, have an ally or minion (who has delayed their action in the initative to just after yours for exactly this purpose) grab the hole off the ceiling, making it impossible to leave and trapping the enemy with ten minutes of air.

When you want to see if they're dead later on, just Time Stop, open the hole, and dart in to check.

(Alternatively, you could toss a bag of holding in, but that means you get no loot and have just wasted two very valuable magical items.)

For obvious reasons, this works best against opponents that need to breathe, but it can trap anything. With a big enough portable hole and a ceiling to put it on, this could trap a Terrasque.

For a version that works on medium or smaller flying creatures, it's best to cooperate with another spellcaster. Have everyone delay their actions in the initative until the appropriate time. One person places the hole, one person casts Gust of Wind, the third grabs the hole. Honestly, you don't even need Time Stop for this as long as you can get into the necessary positions.

This says more about Portable Holes than it does about magic. Portable Hole + illusion of floor = ???

Skjaldbakka
2007-10-28, 01:45 AM
it is an effective combo, against people who don't see it comin. but if your wizard has been doing this combo for a while, which he'd probably would, would allow someone who does there homework to let him cast this combo on him, have it fail, and give the person enough time to wail the wizard while he tries to recover.

No, it isn't. By the time you can cast this combo, it doesn't work on any moster of approriate CR for you. It isn't worth throwing Forcecages at things that are low CR for you, as Forcecage has an expensive material component.

The only thing it works on are badly designed NPCs, and things too low CR for your level.

AtomicKitKat
2007-10-28, 04:35 AM
Ugh. Reverse Gravity. Anytime you see spells that have no SR, no Save(or very obscure, very situational saves), and no attack rolls, yeah, it's broken.

Cruiser1
2007-10-28, 06:03 AM
Another reason why Cloudkill + Forcecage doesn't work is because Cloudkill moves 10 feet per round. That of course makes the barred version of Forcecage not work, however it may not work in the solid wall version of Forcecage either. What happens when the moving Cloudkill runs into a solid object? The DM may rule it disappears, meaning the person trapped in the Forcecage stops taking CON damage next round. Even if the 10 foot cube section of cloud in the Forcecage stops, who's to say it doesn't settle down over time (the vapors are heavier than air) or compress itself against the far wall (the vapors are presumably still pushing themselves against it). Hence the Fighter in the Forcecage may be able to go to the front wall and/or stand up taller to avoid some or all of the effects of the Cloudkill.

mostlyharmful
2007-10-28, 06:12 AM
Another reason why Cloudkill + Forcecage doesn't work is because Cloudkill moves 10 feet per round. That of course makes the barred version of Forcecage not work, however it may not work in the solid wall version of Forcecage either. What happens when the moving Cloudkill runs into a solid object? The DM may rule it disappears, meaning the person trapped in the Forcecage stops taking CON damage next round. Even if the 10 foot cube section of cloud in the Forcecage stops, who's to say it doesn't settle down over time (the vapors are heavier than air) or compress itself against the far wall (the vapors are presumably still pushing themselves against it). Hence the Fighter in the Forcecage may be able to go to the front wall and/or stand up taller to avoid some or all of the effects of the Cloudkill.

Yes, they might be able to. In which case the forcecage takes marginally longer to kill them. They're trapped in a sealed box that's not all that much larger than themselves, for a minimum of 26 hours. That'd work on most everything except constructs, undead and plants unless the trappie has a necklace of adaption or a bottle of air which soesn't seem all that likely given the situational use of those objects. And even if they do survive you and your team then have at least a day to get ready for them.:smallsmile:

Jack_Simth
2007-10-28, 09:43 AM
This says more about Portable Holes than it does about magic. Portable Hole + illusion of floor = ???Instant 10-foot covered pit trap, mobile with the possibility of containing the threat long-term.

You can do similar things with Disintegrate and Illusory Wall.

John Campbell
2007-10-28, 02:38 PM
A Rope Trick houses 8 creatures, regardless of size (rope is one) and the rope itself can deal with 16,000 pounds at once. I think you're covered there pretty easy, so long as you're not looking for more than a few thousand pounds of stuff. An Ape skeletons (4 HD) has a strength score of 21 - at size Large, it's got a heavy load of 920 pounds. You can fit yourself, your familiar, the rope, and five Ape Skeletons in a Rope Trick. Not counting the stuff you carry, or your familiar carries, that's 4600 pounds of stuff. If you use Zombies instead of skeletons, they've got more strength, with a max load of 1,200 pounds each, so 6,000 for five of them. You should be fine, really.

Ah, the subtle joys of catching a good night's sleep packed into an extradimensional space full of gorilla corpses.

This is the life, I tell you. It's good to be an all-powerful wizard!

Jack_Simth
2007-10-28, 02:47 PM
Ah, the subtle joys of catching a good night's sleep packed into an extradimensional space full of gorilla corpses.

This is the life, I tell you. It's good to be an all-powerful wizard!
Yeah, there's a reason necromancers are unpopular at parties. A necromancer's minion just suck the life out of a party.

You can get a Necklace of Adaptation for your own use if you're worried about the smell. Alternately, the Gentle Repose spell specifically mentions that it's good for that aspect.

Josh the Aspie
2007-10-28, 03:54 PM
Agreed here - a war scenario is one of the situations where Cloudkill really does shine. But most D&D characters don't fight full military engagements that often.

Even so, you can't get 200 archers with a cloudkill - it's only got a 20' radius and moves at 10' per round. You'll get a good few, but they won't just sit there and let it roll over them.
- Saph

No, but if the archers break formation and make for the hills you've still routed them, which in a mass combat senario is almost as good. Even better if you're trying to consolidate human forces to resist an incoming attack of the massive orc hoards.

But yeah, the spell is not 'teh uber', but it is good in mass combat.

Saph
2007-10-28, 04:13 PM
Ah, the subtle joys of catching a good night's sleep packed into an extradimensional space full of gorilla corpses.

This is the life, I tell you. It's good to be an all-powerful wizard!

See, this is why I don't bother using Rope Trick for my wizard except in emergencies. It's antisocial, not to mention boring.

Okay, yes, if me and my party sleep outside with watches, there is the chance we could be approached by a wandering monster. In which case we try to talk to it, and if it attacks, we kill it and take its stuff. We gain treasure, gain XP, and get some excitement. I'm not seeing the problem here.

If we're out camping and I want a safe place to sleep, I usually use a Secure Shelter instead. That way if some random creature shows up attempting to talk to us/annoy us/offer a quest to us/kill us/eat us, it can go right ahead and try to get through the arcane-locked doors and stone walls - we'll be ready by the time it gets in.

- Saph

Wolfwood2
2007-10-28, 05:10 PM
Allow me to offer a little "Actual Play" experience.

This is a message board game. We're playing through a 3.5 high level version of "Against the Giants" with monsters tweaked to be our CR. Going up against the Frost Giant Jarl, we knew he had two outsiders "on staff", one an 18th level archmage Ultraloth and one an 18th level psion fiend of some sort (don't recall).

Anyway, combat starts and my 18th level archmage throws off a Sudden Maximized timestop and casts Sphere of Annihilation. Unfortunately, the ultraloth has Spell Stowaway activated and has popped through with me. It makes the first save against my Sphere and attacks me with something that I resist something I resist (forget what) and a quickened energy effect that bounces off my protections. I hit it with a quickened Enervation plus something else and luckily for me it fails the second save against the Sphere.

This leaves enough time on the Timestop to go back to the original plan. Cast Dimensional Lock around the psion, put the Sphere in there with him, and cast Forcecage around them.

Then I summon up something else and time restarts. From the perspective of the other players, the archmage fiend just vanished.

The psion tries to Dispel my Force Cage, but luckily I have my caster level jacked up with Spell Power and an Ioun Stone, so it can't quite get the job done. It too vanishes into the Sphere about the second round of the fight, the DM having rolled sucky on saves.

So does all that Timestop/Forcecage stuff work? Heck yes it does. And however many 9th level spells it cost, they were well worth it.

deadseashoals
2007-10-28, 06:18 PM
Three cheers for this post! I'm so sick of this combo, and those who have played high-level D&D know that it doesn't work.

Crow
2007-10-28, 07:43 PM
Can you use Greater Shadow Evocation to cast Contingency? Either way, is "Anytime I am suprised or caught flat-footed" a valid condition for Contingency to fire off Celerity?

This could solve the "I sit in my MMM because I can't use Foresight all day."

Justin_Bacon
2007-10-28, 07:57 PM
We'll also ignore the question of how you can keep the 10 minute/level duration Foresight spell up 24 hours a day, and what your finances are going to look like if you've been casting Forcecage every encounter with its 1,500 GP material component.

Your finances look pretty awesome. Assuming you never use the combo on a threat less than EL 5 (and why would you?), you guaranteed a long-term profit by the Treasure per Encounter table. It's just one of the ineffable laws of the universe (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0145.html).

Justin Alexander
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Aquillion
2007-10-28, 08:34 PM
Instant 10-foot covered pit trap, mobile with the possibility of containing the threat long-term.

You can do similar things with Disintegrate and Illusory Wall.But Disintegrate is a fairly high-level spell, and most creatures worth trapping will just be able to climb, jump, or teleport out on their turn. A Portable Hole with an illusionary wall (or a silent image, if you only need it to last for as long as you concentrate) can eliminate anything that has to breathe and is not capable of dimensional travel. (Well and, of course, many things aren't fooled by illusions. That's when you use Time Stop + Reverse Gravity instead.)

Saph
2007-10-28, 08:58 PM
Your finances look pretty awesome. Assuming you never use the combo on a threat less than EL 5 (and why would you?), you guaranteed a long-term profit by the Treasure per Encounter table.

You could pour half your wealth into a Sphere of Annihilation every level, too, and your finances would still look 'pretty awesome', just because adventurers own ridiculous amounts of money. That doesn't change the fact that it's a waste. If your wizard casts Forcecage every encounter from level 13 up, and mine doesn't, I'm going to be a lot richer than you by level 17.

And I think your math is off. An ECL 5 encounter gives 1600 gp in treasure split between the whole party - not to each party member.

- Saph

Crow
2007-10-28, 09:02 PM
Can you use Greater Shadow Evocation to cast Contingency? Either way, is "Anytime I am suprised or caught flat-footed" a valid condition for Contingency to fire off Celerity?

This could solve the "I sit in my MMM because I can't use Foresight all day."

Thoughts anyone?

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 09:09 PM
You could, but that's an inefficient condition. I'd try something that encompasses any form of harm, be it physical or mental or etc, and so on and so forth, which should cover up nicely.

Saph
2007-10-28, 09:15 PM
Thoughts anyone?

It's fine, as long as you don't mind recasting the contingency every time someone says 'boo'.

I don't really see the point of having Foresight up 24/7. If you've survived levels 1-16 without permanent Foresight, you should be able to survive levels 17-20 as well. Sure, it's a nice spell, and I'd put it up if I knew if I was going into a dangerous situation, but you can live without it.

- Saph

Chronos
2007-10-28, 09:19 PM
You could, but that's an inefficient condition. I'd try something that encompasses any form of harm, be it physical or mental or etc, and so on and so forth, which should cover up nicely.You don't want to make it too easy to trigger your Contingency, either, or it's going to get wasted on a rat biting your ankles or something (leaving the real threat free to attack you until you can re-cast it, which is at least ten minutes).

Azerian Kelimon
2007-10-28, 09:20 PM
Be wary if you implement real world things in D&D, since your foresight sensor will bleep constantly due to catgirl deaths, which imbalance the multiverse.

Be even MORE wary if you save catgirls from that massacre, or stop it. Catgirl heat is one of the few insta dispels for foresight, due to danger overload.

Arceliar
2007-10-28, 11:04 PM
On the Acid Cloud thing, do remember that neither acid nor sonic bypass hardness, unless otherwise specified, and there are a lot of materials which have 12 or more hardness.

While that is true, there are ways around it. Example: add energy admixture so it's acid AND sonic 2d6 each, and empower it. That puts you over a 9th level spell slot, but metamagic abuse can fix that (if nothing else, a cleric with the right divine metamagic feats could miracle it up). That ups you to a maximum of 16 acid and 16 sonic. If you put maximize spell on there for good measure, it'd be 12 acid + 12 fire + 2d6/2 more of each, all from once source, every round.

With the maximized version, that's an average of (24 + 7/2 + 7/2, after rounding dropoff) 30 points of damage per round. Thats the same as an inch thick layer of mithral, steel, or iron.

So, unless the person's (useful for escaping) items are an inch thick or more, or made of adamantine (and still considerably thicker than you'd want on most items), you're probably going to damage it with a fully pimped out Acid Fog. A very loud acid fog. I'd probably call it Loudkill >.>;

So, if you feel like using:
Foresight + Celerity + Time Stop + Dimensional Lock + a very loud Acid Fog + Forcecage

...THEN you can, MAYBE, kill (almost) anything. And receive no loot. If the target is small enough. Then go take a nap.

Jack_Simth
2007-10-29, 05:01 PM
But Disintegrate is a fairly high-level spell, and most creatures worth trapping will just be able to climb, jump, or teleport out on their turn. A Portable Hole with an illusionary wall (or a silent image, if you only need it to last for as long as you concentrate) can eliminate anything that has to breathe and is not capable of dimensional travel. (Well and, of course, many things aren't fooled by illusions. That's when you use Time Stop + Reverse Gravity instead.)
Yes - and a Flying critter won't be particularly bothered by either.

Tell me - how long does it take to fold up a piece of paper to something the size of a handkerchief? There's a pretty good chance that even using a portable hole, whatever's in there is getting out anyway - plus pit traps give reflex saves (usually DC 20) which is a relatively easy save by the time you're good to go with a Portable Hole. The biggest benefit is them not being able to charge you now that you've altered the terrain. Any way you slice it, getting out costs them an action. The 1d6 is gravy.

Subotei
2007-10-30, 05:56 AM
Thoughts anyone?

I've always thought that conditions based on gamestate data known to the player, but not the character, shouldn't be allowed. For example a character would know when they've been wounded, so could set a contingency for that, but not for when they've taken more than 10HP damage, as thats known to the player.

Taking this approach, I wouldn't allow flat footed as a condition, as thats gamestate data. Surprise is more complicated - the gamestate 'surprise' I wouldn't allow, but as someone stated, its easy to be surprised about a lot of things - in fact if someone used that I think I'd let them, but I don't think they'd get the result they were after :smallamused: but thats cos I GM (when I get the chance) Lawful Evil style....

Aquillion
2007-10-30, 11:38 AM
Yes - and a Flying critter won't be particularly bothered by either.

Tell me - how long does it take to fold up a piece of paper to something the size of a handkerchief? There's a pretty good chance that even using a portable hole, whatever's in there is getting out anyway - plus pit traps give reflex saves (usually DC 20) which is a relatively easy save by the time you're good to go with a Portable Hole. The biggest benefit is them not being able to charge you now that you've altered the terrain. Any way you slice it, getting out costs them an action. The 1d6 is gravy.Picking up your portable hole is described as follows:
This hole can be picked up from inside or out by simply taking hold of the edges of the cloth and folding it up. Either way, the entrance disappears, but anything inside the hole remains.This most closely matches the "manipulate an Item" move action, which covers:
...retrieving or putting away a stored item, picking up an item, moving a heavy object, and opening a door.Folding up a piece of cloth doesn't take longer than most of those (especially dealing with stored items or moving a heavy object, and since you merely can fold it as small as a handkerchief--nothing indicates you have to do it every time. As it's written, even a single fold will close it.)

And naturally, if you really want to force things into it, you use something like Gust of Wind for flying creatures, or some way to put it on the ceiling + Reverse Gravity for nonflying ones. Time Stop makes the latter option easy, since the reverse gravity will affect your hole immediately, but won't affect the monsters until time restarts... but a flying character with anything slightly sticky could put it in place for the reverse gravity if you set the initatitives up right. You could even have a readied action so that when an ally throws the hole to the ceiling, you Reverse Gravity to keep it there and make the enemy fly up into it... but that's a bit more convoluted and questionable.