Halfbreeds are needlessly complicated

[Spore]

Halforc here, halfelf there. I gotta play a Tiefling. An Aasimar would go well with/juxtapose my concept. Can I play a dhampir? They will be like a human, but edgier. I'll play a fetchling, some sort of half-hag half-human.

Seriously, why do we even need rules for stuff like that? Why can't these just be human variants? That is essentially what they are. Elves are not separate races even though Eladrin and Drow and Moon Elves and Sun Elves and Wood Elves have a common ancestor. Also why must tieflings be monstrous humanoids? Tieflings should be humans with a tinge of blood from the lower planes, not fully fledged half-demons. Where is the distinction to actual half-demons?

Personally I am not against heavily refluffing races, if it suits your game. But the official line should be a lot more subdued in my personal opinion. Also if you have half-breeds as options, allow both ends of the parentage to be playable. I don't want a watered-down half-orc when I can play a full orc (sans the mechanical disadvantage, so at least THAT was done already). This is supposed to be high fantasy? Where is the problem when one player wants to be a vampire? Not some Twilightesque twinkling daywalking veggie diet version. Yes I get it, group cohesion and all that. An actual vampire would not play nice with an angel character. But that is what plot, DM, players and friendly group dynamics are for.

[JackPhoenix]

I agree. In fact, remove all races except humans. After all, elves are just humans with funny ears, and orcs are just very ugly humans. "Pointy eared" and "green-skinned" human sub-races, here we go!

Problem with playing powerful creatures is, well, they are powerful. D&D is still a game, and the options should be roughly equal (well, as equal as dragonborn is to a yuan-ti pureblood). You either end up with one option vastly overpowered compared to others, or with a balanced, watered down version that's nothing like NPC representation of the same.

Half-elves and co. are a thing because subracess build up on a base race. Every elf will get some elven goodies, and then few subrace things on top of that. Half-orcs, half-elves and tieflings have nothing in common with each other and humans mechanically. And human itself doesn't really have anything to build up on. There's nothing complicated about having multiple different races... adding more subraces is where the needless (and easily avoidable) complications come from.

[Millstone85]

Why can't these just be human variants? That is essentially what they are. Elves are not separate races even though Eladrin and Drow and Moon Elves and Sun Elves and Wood Elves have a common ancestor.But then, would a half-elf be a subtype of human or elf?

Now, yes, I get the impression that a half-elf would be regarded by humans as "human but odd" and by elves as "not a true elf", the latter showing the least acceptance. But still.


Also why must tieflings be monstrous humanoids? Tieflings should be humans with a tinge of blood from the lower planes, not fully fledged half-demons. Where is the distinction to actual half-demons?I get the opposite feeling. Tieflings are too human. They may all have horns and tails these days, but much emphasis is put on the fact that they have no particular inclination toward evil. What benefit, if any, devils may gain from their existence is also left completely in the air.

By contrast, aasimar are described in messianic terms, and a fallen aasimar is much edgier than a tiefling.

[Damon_Tor]

Halforc here, halfelf there. I gotta play a Tiefling. An Aasimar would go well with/juxtapose my concept. Can I play a dhampir? They will be like a human, but edgier. I'll play a fetchling, some sort of half-hag half-human.

Seriously, why do we even need rules for stuff like that? Why can't these just be human variants? That is essentially what they are. Elves are not separate races even though Eladrin and Drow and Moon Elves and Sun Elves and Wood Elves have a common ancestor. Also why must tieflings be monstrous humanoids? Tieflings should be humans with a tinge of blood from the lower planes, not fully fledged half-demons. Where is the distinction to actual half-demons?

Personally I am not against heavily refluffing races, if it suits your game. But the official line should be a lot more subdued in my personal opinion. Also if you have half-breeds as options, allow both ends of the parentage to be playable. I don't want a watered-down half-orc when I can play a full orc (sans the mechanical disadvantage, so at least THAT was done already). This is supposed to be high fantasy? Where is the problem when one player wants to be a vampire? Not some Twilightesque twinkling daywalking veggie diet version. Yes I get it, group cohesion and all that. An actual vampire would not play nice with an angel character. But that is what plot, DM, players and friendly group dynamics are for.

I would like half-breeds to be more complicated. I would enjoy a robust system of half-races you can combine to form your mixed-blood character. Half Dwarf, half Elf? take the "half dwarf" template of +1 con and combine it with the "half elf" template of +1 dex, add a free floating +1 wherever you like, and choose three features from a list of appropriate racial traits (some of which are re-balanced compared to their full-blooded kin).

[Boci]

But then, would a half-elf be a subtype of human or elf?

Now, yes, I get the impression that a half-elf would be regarded by humans as "human but odd" and by elves as "not a true elf", the latter showing the least acceptance. But still.

In one of my games a half-elf character dislikes that term and prefers to be called "usque" a name half-elf communities have for themselves, especially 2nd and 3rd generations half-elf.

I've also toyed with the idea of a half-elf referring to themselves as half-human, but I haven't an way to make that organically work yet.

[Millstone85]

In one of my games a half-elf character dislikes that term and prefers to be called "usque" a name half-elf communities have for themselves, especially 2nd and 3rd generations half-elf.

I've also toyed with the idea of a half-elf referring to themselves as half-human, but I haven't an way to make that organically work yet.Kinda like how, in the Realms, halflings refer to themselves as "hin". After all, what is a ling? Or are they just being called shorties? Clearly not their name of choice.

[Fynzmirs]

Humans are the most diverse race of 5e. There is huge variation between different people.

Elves or dwarves are another story. They are largely based on a bunch of specific tropes, which makes them more homogeneous. Drow are different than wood elves, but not THAT different.

If you take humans, the most diverse race, and add some more diversity, you end up with something inherently different. Half-Elves are not a human subrace, because even "normal" humans don't really have much in common.

Or at least that's how I run it.

[TigerT20]

Are Tieflings and Aasimar really half-breeds in 5e though?

Book lore states that one is just a term in a very old warlock pact, and the other is just a baby that a god decided would be the new prophet.

I suppose I can at least say you didn't throw dragonborn in, that is one of my pet peeves.

About the actual topic, I generally don't like the idea of half-races as their own things because of the baggage it can bring onto the character. In the real world mixed-race people - although if you see 'races' as more 'species' then fill in 'ligers and mules' are not incredibly different from people who aren't (or lions and donkeys). You could entirely get away with just saying 'oh take one stat block and ask your DM if you can take one or two features from the other race'

Obviously yes, there may be some cultural baggage from looking older than your mother but I wouldn't say elves immediatly go 'has a beard, feed it to the bears'. I don't think half-races really need their own lore and stat blocks.

[Millstone85]

Are Tieflings and Aasimar really half-breeds in 5e though?

Book lore states that one is just a term in a very old warlock pact, and the other is just a baby that a god decided would be the new prophet.According to XGtE, a tiefling can be born from a human and a devil. It doesn't say why this union doesn't make a cambion. Weirdly, tieflings can themselves breed with humans or devils, but not between themselves as half-elves and half-orcs do.

Meanwhile, the EEPC says that genasi can either be half-genies or humans otherwise infused with elemental power.

VGtM doesn't mention the possibility of an aasimar being born from an angel, but I wouldn't write it off.

[Damon_Tor]

Humans are the most diverse race of 5e. There is huge variation between different people.

Elves or dwarves are another story. They are largely based on a bunch of specific tropes, which makes them more homogeneous. Drow are different than wood elves, but not THAT different.

If you take humans, the most diverse race, and add some more diversity, you end up with something inherently different. Half-Elves are not a human subrace, because even "normal" humans don't really have much in common.

Or at least that's how I run it.

In one game I ran, I asked my players to think about the VHuman stats, skill and feat they choose in terms of the culture that their character is from, rather than as an individual trait unique to that character. For example, a VHuman with Str, Con, Animal Handling and Mounted Combatant might come from a culture with deeply rooted equestrian traditions. A character with Int, Dex, Arcana and Magic Initiate might come from a culture where everybody learns at least a little magic growing up, right alongside reading writing and arithmetic.

[DrKerosene]

In the way that the DMG has a bunch of racial stat changes and abilities for NPCs in the section on making creatures, I would like to see a PHB2 or XGtE2 table for Players to use.

Like a blank template for Vhuman or Helf, etc, but with a restriction of up to two different racial feat categories (and needing to know the languages too?). Otherwise you can build a half-orc half-dwarf, or a furry thing, or whatever your DM will permit I guess.

[Dr. Cliché]

Tieflings should be humans with a tinge of blood from the lower planes, not fully fledged half-demons. Where is the distinction to actual half-demons?



I get the opposite feeling. Tieflings are too human. They may all have horns and tails these days, but much emphasis is put on the fact that they have no particular inclination toward evil. What benefit, if any, devils may gain from their existence is also left completely in the air.

By contrast, aasimar are described in messianic terms, and a fallen aasimar is much edgier than a tiefling.

I agree with both of these. I think one of 4th Edition's worst crimes was turning Tieflings - one of the most diverse 'races' in the game - into a race of Asmodeus clones.

I miss the days when Tieflings could look like this:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5HbyYjW4AYTT61?format=jpg&name=medium

Or this:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-68m0BHtSbvM/XHUKnm6q-jI/AAAAAAAACHA/eBEcdxF66lgEHqwnAXgq-ihlRD13xQLoQCLcBGAs/s1600/Dca5strix.jpg

Or this:

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/df84794c-b4bb-463e-843f-3d4498ab2fbc/dowyo9-eed794b1-5387-4bc2-a40c-e282191aad5c.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJ IUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOiIsImlzcyI6InVybjph cHA6Iiwib2JqIjpbW3sicGF0aCI6IlwvZlwvZGY4NDc5NGMtYj RiYi00NjNlLTg0M2YtM2Q0NDk4YWIyZmJjXC9kb3d5bzktZWVk Nzk0YjEtNTM4Ny00YmMyLWE0MGMtZTI4MjE5MWFhZDVjLmpwZy J9XV0sImF1ZCI6WyJ1cm46c2VydmljZTpmaWxlLmRvd25sb2Fk Il19.xR8d-vhw7VWaGaoicHi6AmQn2ErjguH9dSsqSJhZnV8

Or even this:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/5/50/Tiefling_Sam-Wood_FRCS3e.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140911060441

I liked that there was a huge variety of possibilities because there were so many different races they could have come from and so many ways their fiendish blood could be expressed. It left you with a lot of creative freedom - particularly in terms of whether you wanted to play a tiefling who would be instantly recognised as such, or a tiefling with more subtle features.

But then 4e threw all of that in the bin in favour of the aforementioned Asmodeus clones (and 5e decided that was a great direction to go in, or maybe they just couldn't be bothered making new miniatures). However, I think Millstone makes a good point in that whilst tieflings now look much less human overall, there's nothing to them. You could just as easily say that their appearance has nothing whatsoever to do with fiends and is instead the product of some weird, magical disease and their description would make no less sense. Because they don't read as creatures tainted by fiendish blood. They read as re-skinned humans.

[Warlush]

I have never understood why people get so hung up on fluff.

[LibraryOgre]

I get what the OP is suggesting. Human would be a type, with some base traits. Half-elf would be a subrace of human, as would half-orc.

It would require some reworking, but I could see it working pretty well. You might even half half-human be a subrace for other races... Elf would have a half-human subrace, to represent those half-elves who mostly take after their human side.

[No brains]

These creatures being half-human is a design compromise, not the whole of their being. Saying something is half-human to a human means that something is watered down from the other more impressive thing that it is. But it's enough of a watering down to permit as a character.

New players, or even experienced players desiring something new, may come to a table and say, "I would like to play a dragon, a demon, an angel, vampire, or bullywug." Somewhere down the line, instead of saying, "No, that's too much work." or "Okay, but it's a lot of work." an enterprising/ lazy DM said, "What about a half-one of those things?" and created a different lot of work. This work must have worked out, we're working on it to this day.

Some people enjoy playing D&D as a chance to play a freak or monster. Why they would want to do that is up to them, but if its the hook that gets them invested in the game, it can be a powerful tool for crafting a fun experience. You can say it's less realistic for someone to play a 'monster' character, but if being a monster gets them to care about their character, then they're going to play with realistic concern for that character surviving. It's more immersive than Jim Deathwish XXVIII, human fighter with lowish stats, let's make this quick.

As for all tieflings being horned... yeah, that's sort of bogus. A theory I hear repeated is that this is to bait in people who had draenei characters in WoW. Then again, narrowing them down to being half-devil, the one type of fiend that might tolerate humanoids sort of makes sense. And if something bogus came from Asmodeus being a cosmic jerk, well then that's just believable writing. Of course, maybe it was also done to let people play satyrs. Gotta reach that demographic.

I wrote this post on limited sleep.

[Keltest]

In one of my games a half-elf character dislikes that term and prefers to be called "usque" a name half-elf communities have for themselves, especially 2nd and 3rd generations half-elf.

I've also toyed with the idea of a half-elf referring to themselves as half-human, but I haven't an way to make that organically work yet.

In the first Dragonlance novel, the half elf character uses the name Tanis Half-Elven, and rather pointedly explains to a human companion that he goes by Half-Elven rather than Half-Man because, among humans, being half an elf is simply a part of his complete identity, whereas being half a man would mean he is calling himself a cripple, or worse. The Elves, meanwhile, refer to him using his full name of Tanthalas, and generally try to avoid bringing up his heritage if they aren't actively looking to pick a fight.

[MoiMagnus]

Half-elves: They are just Charisma based elves. Why are they not a subrace of elves? Because elf-human breeding is a common trope. And because too many peoples would complain if you changed it.

Half-orcs: They are just Orcs except they are playable. Monstrous races are forbidden at most tables, in particular because they make integrating PCs into the world more complex for the DM. A lot of tables have in their worldbuilding Orcs as pure evil that cannot be redeemed or take any alignment other "Chaotic Evil that destroy everything", so definitely not something you want to as a PC. Half-orcs are just a way to play an orc which is free about its alignment.

Tielfling: Essentially the same reason as for orcs. Except on top of that, directly playing infernal creatures would probably cause a lot of balance problems. And having infernal blood is a reasonably common trope too. You could argue against them being in the PHB, but they were popular enough to make the cut. "Who gets to be a race in the PHB?" is more a question of popularity and tradition than anything else.

[Keravath]

Keep in mind that in game terms they ARE all the same. Every one of these different "races" are examples of the one creature type "humanoid". In terms of spell effects and game mechanics they ARE already exactly the same.

The only differences in the different "races" are their modifications to the base attributes and any special abilities that are relatively common to that particular sub-group of humanoids.

Elves: Typically +2 dex, +1 to another state depending on which type of elf, darkvision and a few other tweaks.

They are all examples of humanoids.

-----

Also, consider that this is a game mechanic and not a role play issue. The appearance of each type of humanoid varies a lot. Yuan-ti purebloods can pass for humans. Some examples of most of the different sub-types of humanoid can also pass for humans. Every elf doesn't necessarily have pointed ears that are exactly the same. Even actual sub-type humans have a wide variation in appearance.

Anyway, appearance is entirely fluff. Ask your DM and you can look like anything.

------

Also, I'm not sure where the idea that "tieflings" must be half-demons comes from ..

"Tieflings are derived from human bloodlines, and in the broadest possible sense, they still look human. However, their infernal heritage has left a clear imprint on their appearance."

Tieflings ARE humans with an infernal heritage somewhere in their background. They aren't "half-demons" meaning that one parent was a demon and another a human ... though they could be.

However, the fluff does say that Tieflings all have horns, a tail, enlarged canines and other visible features which I tend to disagree with as a DM. I would expect a wide range of possible Tiefling appearance, just like any other humanoid. Though perhaps the intent of the description is that it is only the more divergent part-infernal creatures that retain the sub-type traits that are ascribed to Tieflings. If they don't express their infernal heritage to a significant degree then they aren't mechanically representatives of the Tiefling sub-type but would be represented as a human with a bit of infernal blood in game terms.

In any case, my point is that all of these are humanoids :) and all the different "races" do is describe the baseline differences between typical representatives of each type of humanoid.

[LibraryOgre]

So, I'm gonna play with this a bit.

Human:
Core abilities: Medium size, 30' speed. No extraordinary vision.

*Attribute Modifiers: +1 to any attribute of choice.
*Skillful: Humans get a bonus skill.

Subraces:

Human:
*+1 to any other attribute of choice
*Free Feat

Half-Elf
*+1 to Charisma
*Darkvision
*Advantage on saves v. sleep and charm

Half-Orc
*+1 to Strength
*Darkvision
*Relentless Endurance
*Savage Attacks

Tiefling
*Darkvision
*Fire Resistance
*Thaumaturgy Cantrip

Now, this downpowers Half-elves (lose a bonus skill) and Tieflings (lose some free spells, lose a point of attribute), but keeps them pretty much in range as they are, while going with the "half-humans as human subraces" concept. I don't think it's how they'd set them up, but it works well enough.

[BurgerBeast]

I have never understood why people get so hung up on fluff.

Then you do not understand the fundamental appeal of narratives.

Imagine saying the same thing about a movie. Movies are mechanical, after all. Ten minutes of establishing the setting. Then the change of situation. Then the call to action. Commitment to the goal. Major setback. Point of no return. Climax. Resolution.

Who cares about the fluff, right? It could be Star Wars, When Harry Met Sally, or Gone with the Wind.

They’re all the same anyway, right?

No. “Fluff” is everything. And the quality of the game depends, fundamentally, on how well the mechanics are integrated into and represent the fluff. Fluff is why people care about the underlying mechanics, just as in a movie.

[No brains]

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes also brings up a point that half-elves are something of a mystery in regards to having an elven soul. There are only supposed to be a finite number of elven souls that experience reincarnation, but the half-elves have swollen the 'elven' population larger than it has been before. Are these reincarnated elves? Do they lack elven souls? Have more elven souls somehow been created? They don't trance and thus can't see their past lives, so the halfs themselves are unfortunately unhelpful in answering this.

[Willie the Duck]

Halforc here, halfelf there. I gotta play a Tiefling. An Aasimar would go well with/juxtapose my concept. Can I play a dhampir? They will be like a human, but edgier. I'll play a fetchling, some sort of half-hag half-human.

Seriously, why do we even need rules for stuff like that? Why can't these just be human variants? That is essentially what they are. Elves are not separate races even though Eladrin and Drow and Moon Elves and Sun Elves and Wood Elves have a common ancestor. Also why must tieflings be monstrous humanoids? Tieflings should be humans with a tinge of blood from the lower planes, not fully fledged half-demons. Where is the distinction to actual half-demons?

Personally I am not against heavily refluffing races, if it suits your game. But the official line should be a lot more subdued in my personal opinion. Also if you have half-breeds as options, allow both ends of the parentage to be playable. I don't want a watered-down half-orc when I can play a full orc (sans the mechanical disadvantage, so at least THAT was done already). This is supposed to be high fantasy? Where is the problem when one player wants to be a vampire? Not some Twilightesque twinkling daywalking veggie diet version. Yes I get it, group cohesion and all that. An actual vampire would not play nice with an angel character. But that is what plot, DM, players and friendly group dynamics are for.

Okay, I don't specifically disagree. However, I'm not sure why it is the halfbreeds in particular that register this angst. D&D race in total is a bizarre combo of mechanical benefits (the funnel one towards specific builds) and fluff that is at the same time too vague and too specific. I mean, why stop at halfbreeds? Let's make all the humanoid races just be human variants. Or just have two types -- medium-sized PC race and small-sized PC race. Pick your benefits from the list (thus no more penalty for playing against type) and add the fiction layer on top. Certainly worth thinking about, at least.

[Nifft]

Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes also brings up a point that half-elves are something of a mystery in regards to having an elven soul. There are only supposed to be a finite number of elven souls that experience reincarnation, but the half-elves have swollen the 'elven' population larger than it has been before. Are these reincarnated elves? Do they lack elven souls? Have more elven souls somehow been created? They don't trance and thus can't see their past lives, so the halfs themselves are unfortunately unhelpful in answering this.

Is that thing about Elf souls some new 5e lore, or was that an FR trope going back?

[Keltest]

Is that thing about Elf souls some new 5e lore, or was that an FR trope going back?

Its an FR thing, AFAIK. Which is not to say it isn't also a 5E thing, but my understanding is that FR had elf souls be super special snowflakes long before 5E or even 4E existed.

[Millstone85]

Is that thing about Elf souls some new 5e lore, or was that an FR trope going back?
Its an FR thing, AFAIK. Which is not to say it isn't also a 5E thing, but my understanding is that FR had elf souls be super special snowflakes long before 5E or even 4E existed.What a freak coincidence. I just got told on Imgur that FR did that long before 5e generalized it. I even noted how strange it was that I didn't read it here first.

[Spore]

I mean, why stop at halfbreeds? Let's make all the humanoid races just be human variants.

I mean Elder Scrolls does just that. Juman subraces, elven subraces and two kinds of beastfolk with an INSANE commitment to weird and unusual culture, which is oddly exactly the point I am trying to make.

If you want "human but different", then maybe just find a ruleset, that sufficiently captures many tropes. If you want "elf, except not really", there is the variety of elven races in TES (orcs and dwarves are just subsets of elves here). And if you want to go fully ham, you go Khajiit (weird catpeople whose fluff ranges from uncanny valley catgirls over furries down to sentient quadrupeds of the small, medium and large variety) or Argonians (something for our dear scalies, but with tree powers and fluff).

I get that TES races can leave you wanting: what about daedra? is there no divine influence on human blood at all? Not being able to play Rieklings (goblins) or a minotaur can feel limiting, but I feel either go full out on building a race's backstory and fluff, or just not print it.

[Luccan]

In one of my games a half-elf character dislikes that term and prefers to be called "usque" a name half-elf communities have for themselves, especially 2nd and 3rd generations half-elf.

I've also toyed with the idea of a half-elf referring to themselves as half-human, but I haven't an way to make that organically work yet.

A half-elf raised by elves might think of themselves that way. It would be a bit awkward to refer to themselves as that around humans, true, but maybe if they looked particularly elvish they would do it as a clarifying statement "No no no, I'm only 25. I'm half-human, I won't live for centuries..."

[Tanarii]

The reason for the primary and optional races is simple. Tradition. Tiefling & Dragonborn I could personally do without. But they were a big hit so they're a new tradition. :smallamused:


Kinda like how, in the Realms, halflings refer to themselves as "hin". After all, what is a ling? Or are they just being called shorties? Clearly not their name of choice.
Originally Hin was a BECMI Five Shires name for halfling.

Unsurprising considering it was the same author though.

[Luccan]

I think I could see the argument for Half-Elf and Half-Orc, but I personally wouldn't want it. I'm concerned it would be too easy for them to end up as crappy options in comparison to full-blooded humans again. There's also the half-elf subraces from SCAG to consider; maybe those options could be implemented on a subrace half-elf, but I've got reservations about it.

But then there's the planetouched: Aasimar, Genasi, and Tiefling. I think their place as separate races make sense. They're nothing like humans (or any other potential mortal parent race, if you're not strictly sticking to default human fluff), because of their planar bloodlines. I'm not really convinced they need to be subraces. Especially since they don't have to be half human/mortal race and something else. It just needs to be present somewhere in their ancestry

[Nifft]

Its an FR thing, AFAIK. Which is not to say it isn't also a 5E thing, but my understanding is that FR had elf souls be super special snowflakes long before 5E or even 4E existed.


What a freak coincidence. I just got told on Imgur that FR did that long before 5e generalized it. I even noted how strange it was that I didn't read it here first.

I'm sometimes surprised by the level of attention to things like this, but then I remember that FR started out as basically collaborative erotic RP... I guess there had been a need to limit elf waifu harems at some point.

[Damon_Tor]

I mean Elder Scrolls does just that. Juman subraces, elven subraces and two kinds of beastfolk with an INSANE commitment to weird and unusual culture, which is oddly exactly the point I am trying to make.

If you want "human but different", then maybe just find a ruleset, that sufficiently captures many tropes. If you want "elf, except not really", there is the variety of elven races in TES (orcs and dwarves are just subsets of elves here). And if you want to go fully ham, you go Khajiit (weird catpeople whose fluff ranges from uncanny valley catgirls over furries down to sentient quadrupeds of the small, medium and large variety) or Argonians (something for our dear scalies, but with tree powers and fluff).

I get that TES races can leave you wanting: what about daedra? is there no divine influence on human blood at all? Not being able to play Rieklings (goblins) or a minotaur can feel limiting, but I feel either go full out on building a race's backstory and fluff, or just not print it.

Even the Khajiit are (heavily altered) elves. They're effectively elvish were-cats who just happen to have their shape "locked in" when they're born. The Ohmes form is basically indistinguishable from an elf, with no cat features at all.

[Luccan]

Even the Khajiit are (heavily altered) elves. They're effectively elvish were-cats who just happen to have their shape "locked in" when they're born. The Ohmes form is basically indistinguishable from an elf, with no cat features at all.

Is that canonical? I'm sure it's an in-universe theory, but the origins of any race on more than a basic level seems pretty hotly debated.

[LordCdrMilitant]

I think the existence of Half Elves and Half Orcs is kind of weird, I assume they'd be generally infertile like Mules. That said, I'm thus puzzled that there's half elves and half orcs, implying them to be sufficiently human-adjacent to breed conventionally with humans, but there are no half-dwarfs, which would imply that dwarfs are a similar-looking but otherwise entirely different family of creatures.

Aasimar and Tieflings seem largely fine since they're more magical mutants than actual half-breeds. Angels and devils might not even have to do it with Humans to make a Tiefling or an Aasimar. That said, Tieflings are definitely implied to be capable of reproducing with other Tieflings to make Tieflings, so an evolved [well, infernally bio-engineered] form of human would be a different species if elves and dwarfs are a different species.

[No brains]

I'm sometimes surprised by the level of attention to things like this, but then I remember that FR started out as basically collaborative erotic RP... I guess there had been a need to limit elf waifu harems at some point.

Glad they did SOMETHING to curb the complication of halfbreeds. :smalltongue:

[Luccan]

I think the existence of Half Elves and Half Orcs is kind of weird, I assume they'd be generally infertile like Mules. That said, I'm thus puzzled that there's half elves and half orcs, implying them to be sufficiently human-adjacent to breed conventionally with humans, but there are no half-dwarfs, which would imply that dwarfs are a similar-looking but otherwise entirely different family of creatures.

Aasimar and Tieflings seem largely fine since they're more magical mutants than actual half-breeds. Angels and devils might not even have to do it with Humans to make a Tiefling or an Aasimar. That said, Tieflings are definitely implied to be capable of reproducing with other Tieflings to make Tieflings, so an evolved [well, infernally bio-engineered] form of human would be a different species if elves and dwarfs are a different species.

In some settings I think they are sterile, but its not really talked about in others. Half-dwarves don't exist (in most settings) because none of the fiction D&D pulls on has them. In LotR there aren't any because Dwarves weren't created by Iluvatar, unlike humans and elves.

I wouldn't really look for a genetic explanation, it's a fantasy game after all, but then they can't really offer an official explanation or people will complain about forced canon.

[Tanarii]

In some settings I think they are sterile, but its not really talked about in others. Half-dwarves don't exist (in most settings) because none of the fiction D&D pulls on has them. In LotR there aren't any because Dwarves weren't created by Iluvatar, unlike humans and elves.
In D&D:
Dark Suns - Muls (sterile) - Core Rules

Dragonlance - Half-dwarves - Races of Ansalon

Forgotten Realms - Half-dwarves (multiple races; mechanically they are dwarves), Dwelves (dwarf/elf) - Dwarves Deep

[Luccan]

In D&D:
Dark Suns - Muls (sterile) - Core Rules

Dragonlance - Half-dwarves - Races of Ansalon

Forgotten Realms - Half-dwarves (multiple races; mechanically they are dwarves), Dwelves (dwarf/elf) - Dwarves Deep

I actually thought Dwelves were a joke. Not as familiar with Dragonlance admittedly. But yeah, the only one that came to mind were Derro, apparently there are more than I thought.

Edit: I suppose the other place it's outright stated is Stout Halflings, which might have dwarf ancestors. And looking it up, it seems only Dwelves are treated as a separate race (and go unstatted). The others just show up as dwarves. So I guess that's the easy answer, dwarves can breed with lots of folks, but they always beget dwarves.

[Tanarii]

I actually thought Dwelves were a joke. Not as familiar with Dragonlance admittedly. But yeah, the only one that came to mind were Derro, apparently there are more than I thought.

Edit: I suppose the other place it's outright stated is Stout Halflings, which might have dwarf ancestors. And looking it up, it seems only Dwelves are treated as a separate race (and go unstatted). The others just show up as dwarves. So I guess that's the easy answer, dwarves can breed with lots of folks, but they always beget dwarves.I should have been clear I looked up the FR and dragonlance ones. I was confirming Muls were sterile (they are) and gully dwarves were a dwarf/gnome or dwarf/human crossbreed (apparently that's just trash talk by other races). I didn't know about the FR ones.

[Luccan]

I should have been clear I looked up the FR and dragonlance ones. I was confirming Muls were sterile (they are) and gully dwarves were a dwarf/gnome or dwarf/human crossbreed (apparently that's just trash talk by other races). I didn't know about the FR ones.

Oh. I probably also should've been more clear that the sterility comment was in response to the half-elves and half-orcs being sterile like mules. Though now that I think about it, I'm actually not sure what setting(s) that would be.

[Spore]

I mean Faerun at least has the explanation that the major gods decide which races can produce offspring. And only humans are slutty enough to have zero actual restrictions. ;)

But by the gods that really readjusts my view of RPGs and the implied eRP.

[Telwar]

One of the things I appreciate mechanically about PF2 is that the races ("ancestries") are built such that you can, with relative ease, build half-races or planetouched off of a primary ancestry. In the base game, half-elf and half-orc are built off of humans as a base, but there's no real reason you couldn't build an orc/halfling hybrid or a dwarf tiefling.

[Pixel_Kitsune]

Then you do not understand the fundamental appeal of narratives.

Imagine saying the same thing about a movie. Movies are mechanical, after all. Ten minutes of establishing the setting. Then the change of situation. Then the call to action. Commitment to the goal. Major setback. Point of no return. Climax. Resolution.

Who cares about the fluff, right? It could be Star Wars, When Harry Met Sally, or Gone with the Wind.

They’re all the same anyway, right?

No. “Fluff” is everything. And the quality of the game depends, fundamentally, on how well the mechanics are integrated into and represent the fluff. Fluff is why people care about the underlying mechanics, just as in a movie.

I think you misunderstand the original comment.

No one is saying fluff doesn't matter in terms of identifying and giving distinction to the story.

They're saying for a RPG Game Rules Set the Fluff is all interchangeable by table and group.

Is the Tiefling Balanced as a race? I think so. So do most people I imagine. Does it then matter if my table ran a WoW Game outright and called the Tiefling stat set Draenei and used that entire background and flavor?

How about another table calls them actual Half-Fiends and says they are always from a Devil and Human pairing? Doesn't change the mechanics and it works for their table.

Both of those fluffs are important to the table they're at. They mean nothing in a broader discussion as at that point we're just talking "Tiefling".

[LibraryOgre]

I get that TES races can leave you wanting: what about daedra? is there no divine influence on human blood at all? Not being able to play Rieklings (goblins) or a minotaur can feel limiting, but I feel either go full out on building a race's backstory and fluff, or just not print it.

Before Skyrim came out, I was low-key expecting Dremora to be a new playable race, like Orcs were in Morrowind. Like, they had a new homeland in Kvatch and were just normal people, now.


Is that canonical? I'm sure it's an in-universe theory, but the origins of any race on more than a basic level seems pretty hotly debated.

It goes back and forth, not being clear either way. (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit#Origin)

[Damon_Tor]

It goes back and forth, not being clear either way. (https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Khajiit#Origin)

That's kind of how Elder Scrolls lore works. The games are filled with lore in the form of in-game books, and much of it conflicts with other in-game sources. Some of this is unintentional, but to some degree the writers have embraced the idea that the books you find are written by people who maybe didn't know what they were talking about.

I would be inclined to trust the Khajiit's own origin myth (which posits the elvish ancestry) over sources like the Pocket Guide to the Empire, especially since it backs up the physical evidence of some Khajiit being nearly indistinguishable from Bosmer. Sources like TES Travels are of dubious value in any context: they were written by other studios and their canonicity is questionable, even by TES's already lose standards.

[Spore]

That's kind of how Elder Scrolls lore works. The games are filled with lore in the form of in-game books, and much of it conflicts with other in-game sources. Some of this is unintentional, but to some degree the writers have embraced the idea that the books you find are written by people who maybe didn't know what they were talking about.

I would be inclined to trust the Khajiit's own origin myth (which posits the elvish ancestry) over sources like the Pocket Guide to the Empire, especially since it backs up the physical evidence of some Khajiit being nearly indistinguishable from Bosmer. Sources like TES Travels are of dubious value in any context: they were written by other studios and their canonicity is questionable, even by TES's already lose standards.

Some of the ingame authors are also exaggerating to push their theories, while others are close to insane. So yeah, but that is what I like about TES lore, and to a minor degree, their cosmetics and fluff. It is not set in stone, like many 5e source books would make you believe. A tiefling by TES lore standards can be a human with a few subtle hints of their extraplanar heritage. Anything with horns, or a tail, or both would not be a "corrupted" or planetouched human, but a half-demon or worse.

This is majorly my point. Planetouched half-breeds are not just 'touched' by it anymore, they are fully blown plane-violated. And I just dislike the thought of interbreeding races anyhow, because they spawn so. much. angsty. backstories. Imagine if Drizzt was half-drow. The books would be 40% self-loathing and internal drama. And with a world that focusses so much of its attention to outward dramatic situations. You can't have a doubtful character facing off in an epic fight with a demon, only to reel in his intra-character drama between turns. D&D is not really made for that. It is a combat and dungeon system first and foremost, not a storyteller's game like World of Darkness, where the character's inner turmoil is the focus.

In another praise to Elder Scrolls, at least there the mother is the predominant factor in a character's physical and spiritual abilities: Notes on Racial Phylogeny (https://elderscrolls.fandom.com/wiki/Notes_on_Racial_Phylogeny)

While it has no information about planetoucheds and beast races hybrids, half-elves are Bretons there (basically just humans with improved magical talent). And Molag Bal's brides are vampires, which might also not count because he is basically a demon lord/evil deity in that regard. Deities often just "will a being" into a desired shape rather than being dependant on such worldly things as biology (though they might be, because they are explicitly bound to the world rather than untethered like the real gods/aedra.)