Domain Feats Question

[crankykobold]

Complete Champion pg 53 states a cleric can exchange his domain for a devotion feat. Must this be done at the level it is gained or can it be done at a later time?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Generally this type of decision is made upon gaining whatever is being replaced. Check with your DM though, and even if you can't, maybe use the retraining rules in PH2.

[crankykobold]

In this case I am the DM. I was looking for something on it in the books but was coming up empty. I also thought it would be good to know if it came up when building for one of the Iron Chef challenges.
I'm probably going to allow it in this instance. The player wants to do 1st level Cloistered Cleric into Bard and trade in Knowledge Domain At 2nd. I don't feel like it's a huge impact.

[Darrin]

The wording is ambiguous. Complete Champion p. 52 says, "You can select a domain feat at any level." In general, most people assume this means, "at any level when you could normally select a feat", that typically being 1st, 3rd, 6th, 9th, etc.

For clerics, it's a little different in that you can swap one of your domains for a domain feat, and can then get up to three of them: one as a normal "level" feat, and two more by swapping your two domains. Again, most people assume this happens when you are choosing domains, so usually Cleric 1st level.

However, the Knowledge Devotion feat has an additional quirk, as it's the only Devotion feat that has a skill requirement: Knowledge (any) 5 ranks. This means that you can't legally take it until at least 2nd level. Our best guess is this is probably a typo or an editing mistake, but by strict RAW, you can't take Knowledge Devotion at 1st level. This is a stupid requirement, so some DMs may just ignore it.

For Iron Chef purposes, there's no ironclad ruling on this, so it'd be up to the judge to assess a penalty if they thought you were doing something hinky. If you were dipping Cloistered Cleric at 2nd level (or later) for three devotions, and had already maxed out a Knowledge skill at 5 ranks, I can't imagine the typical Iron Chef judges would have any issues with that.

[Nifft]

Cloistered Clerics are extra-weird about this, since a few of their class features (e.g. skill list) depend on having the Knowledge domain as a regular domain, and since gaining the Knowledge domain is "automatic" and not contingent upon the chosen deity offering it as a regular domain.

I've seen DMs who will allow a Cloistered Cleric to give up either of their regular Domains, but not the automatic Knowledge domain -- and that's a valid option, since both are optional variants which don't particularly account for each other.

[Doctor Despair]

Cloistered Clerics are extra-weird about this, since a few of their class features (e.g. skill list) depend on having the Knowledge domain as a regular domain, and since gaining the Knowledge domain is "automatic" and not contingent upon the chosen deity offering it as a regular domain.

I've seen DMs who will allow a Cloistered Cleric to give up either of their regular Domains, but not the automatic Knowledge domain -- and that's a valid option, since both are optional variants which don't particularly account for each other.


A domain feat usually corresponds to one of the domains to which a particular deity grants access, or those representing set of ideals.

If you are a cleric (or any other character class who gains access to a domain), you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains offered by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains. A cleric of Pelor, for example, can choose to cast spells from the Good and Healing domains but select the Strength Devotion and Sun Devotion feats. In addition, you can choose to give up access to a domain in exchange for the corresponding domain feat. Doing so allows you to select up to three domain feats, but you cannot prepare domain spells or use the granted power of the sacrificed domain. In essence, you trade in a domain for an extra feat slot that you can spend only on a specific domain feat. For example, the above cleric of Pelor could choose to give up the granted power and spells of the Good domain for the Good Devotion feat.

That seems like a weird ruling. If the C. Cleric's deity offers the knowledge domain, I can't see any reason to bar them from trading it out. Seems like they'd lose access to the knowledge skills, but apart from that, nothing depends on having the domain, right? Of course, if the deity doesn't have knowledge as a domain, it becomes a question of how you interpret that text. If you treat the whole paragraph as one cohesive unit, it seems to imply you can only give up domains that your cleric offers; however, the bolded section seems to imply it should be considered separately, using a transition phrase "in addition," and that part does not seem to have the requirement that it be one of your deity's domains. I suppose I could see an argument for being ALLOWED to ban giving it up if it isn't one of your patron deity's normal domains, but it does seem like a very restrictive reading.

[Nifft]

That seems like a weird ruling. If the C. Cleric's deity offers the knowledge domain, I can't see any reason to bar them from trading it out. Seems like they'd lose access to the knowledge skills, but apart from that, nothing depends on having the domain, right? Of course, if the deity doesn't have knowledge as a domain, it becomes a question of how you interpret that text. If you treat the whole paragraph as one cohesive unit, it seems to imply you can only give up domains that your cleric offers; however, the bolded section seems to imply it should be considered separately, using a transition phrase "in addition," and that part does not seem to have the requirement that it be one of your deity's domains. I suppose I could see an argument for being ALLOWED to ban giving it up if it isn't one of your patron deity's normal domains, but it does seem like a very restrictive reading.

Allowing two variants from different sources is your idea of restrictive? That makes it seem like you have a very strong knee-jerk overreaction to any restriction.


But yeah, the Knowledge Domain seems more baked in than either of the other domain choices that a Cloistered Cleric would pick.

Finally, a close reading of this passage:


In addition to any domains selected from his deity's list, a cloistered cleric automatically gains the Knowledge domain as a bonus domain (even if the Knowledge domain is not normally available to clerics of that deity). He gains the Knowledge domain granted power and may select his bonus domain spell from the Knowledge domain or from one of his two regular domains.

... shows that the Knowledge domain granted by the Cloistered Cleric variant isn't from the deity's list of domains.

No exception is offered for this departure even in the case where the deity also offers the Knowledge Domain.

A strict reading would allow you to take the Knowledge Domain twice, trade away the one you got from the deity, and leave you with Knowledge Devotion + the Knowledge Domain + one other Domain.

[Doctor Despair]

Allowing two variants from different sources is your idea of restrictive? That makes it seem like you have a very strong knee-jerk overreaction to any restriction.

I mean, people do take multiple variants, but I suppose that's a fair criticism.




Finally, a close reading of this passage:

... shows that the Knowledge domain granted by the Cloistered Cleric variant isn't from the deity's list of domains.

No exception is offered for this departure even in the case where the deity also offers the Knowledge Domain.

A strict reading would allow you to take the Knowledge Domain twice, trade away the one you got from the deity, and leave you with Knowledge Devotion + the Knowledge Domain + one other Domain.

That's a fair reading, for sure.