Fighter multiclassing advice

[el minster]

A fellow player is new to the game and playing a fighter. I'm trying to help her but am stumped as what to do after level 2. She's playing a sword and board dwarven fighter with the axe focus ACF. Any tips?

[crankykobold]

Cleric dips can provide a lot of benefit in just one level. Barbarian levels can get some good things as well with the alternate class features, like pounce or trip without the combat expert prereq.

[Falontani]

If you print out the cards, crusader can be new player friendly, and a good choice.

If the player is intelligent, and the teachers know incarnum you could try to teach it, and it could be useful.

Binding may be easier to teach and use however.

If the character has wisdom then a cleric dip or psychic warrior dip are both pretty good and straightforward, although teaching a magic system always has complications.

Finally you could go combat rogue ua and begin to teach skills.

[GrayDeath]

Whatever matches the way the Player wants to play most.

Gong for a Sword and Board Dwarf usually screams "completely new and no idea whats good" or "Wants to play a classic Dwarf and knows its rather bad", so depending on that:

if 1: Recommend that they see their 2 Levels of Fighter as Learning experience and give them a useful class.


If 2: Dwarven Defender or Dwarven paragon are screaming for attention.^^





If the player is intelligent, and the teachers know incarnum you could try to teach it, and it could be useful.

Binding may be easier to teach and use however.



On a sidenote: Falontani: I would avoid saying things like you did in your above Post. Assuming English is not your first Language, it still can come across as something likely very different from what you wanted to say....


For example: It has no bearing whatsoever on being able to learn Incarnum if the Player is particularly intelligent. As long as he is able to add numbers and read, he should be fine.
Now if he WANTS to play something like a Binder or TOtemist is something else entirely.

And what do you mean with "Teachers"? This is not a Game in a Class room, ya know? ^^

[Falontani]

On a sidenote: Falontani: I would avoid saying things like you did in your above Post. Assuming English is not your first Language, it still can come across as something likely very different from what you wanted to say....


For example: It has no bearing whatsoever on being able to learn Incarnum if the Player is particularly intelligent. As long as he is able to add numbers and read, he should be fine.
Now if he WANTS to play something like a Binder or TOtemist is something else entirely.

And what do you mean with "Teachers"? This is not a Game in a Class room, ya know? ^^

I am not intentionally being rude; but I have had players in the past that attempted to learn incarnum, and could not grasp it. He believed himself not smart enough. And by teachers I mean people that already understand the game and how incarnum works, rather than trying to just read the book which is not formatted well.

I am not saying that the player is intelligent or not; simply stating that being intelligent will definitely assist in your grasping a fairly complicated system that isn't intuitive.

[el minster]

Going for dwarven defender and dwarven paragon sounds good also read person man's guide to shields if you think sword and board sucks

[Darrin]

Dwarven Fighter is perfectly solid through Fighter 6 or Fighter 8. If PHBII is available, then she can fill out the whole Weapon Specialization/Melee Weapon Mastery stuff.

Also, if PHBII is available, then Agile Shield Fighter is available, which *replaces* TWF penalties. This means she can wield a heavy shield in one hand and a dwarven waraxe in the other and not worry about a penalty for a non-light weapon.

Now add Shield Charge and Shield Slam (Complete Warrior), and she's got attack + debuff. The only piece that's missing is Pounce, which is just a 1-level dip away. After that, going Barbarian 2 for Improved Trip is also just a level away. If she wants to go further with the TWF stuff, Ranger 2 and/or Ranger 6 lets her pickup TWF/Improved TWF without worrying about the Dex requirements.

Most of my melee characters start with some combination of Fighter 2 + Barbarian 2 + Ranger 2 in various combinations. Take one more level of Ranger, and you've most likely already met all the prereqs for Horizon Walker, which is a solid prestige class with full BAB and class abilities that don't completely stink.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Falontani
If you print out the cards, crusader can be new player friendly, and a good choice.

I would respectfully caution against this one. I tried to do this and had an extremely difficult time with it, and this was after several years’ experience both playing and running 3.5 games. For a player who’s still new to the game overall, adding a new subsystem could be overwhelming.


Originally Posted by Darrin
Most of my melee characters start with some combination of Fighter 2 + Barbarian 2 + Ranger 2 in various combinations. Take one more level of Ranger, and you've most likely already met all the prereqs for Horizon Walker, which is a solid prestige class with full BAB and class abilities that don't completely stink.

Do you have an example or two of Horizon Walker builds using this approach?

[Biggus]

Going for dwarven defender and dwarven paragon sounds good also read person man's guide to shields if you think sword and board sucks

Dwarven Defender has three bad feats as prerequisites, if they want to take it maybe see if the DM will let them at least take Improved Toughness instead of Toughness to count as a prerequisite. Also, the class is only really much use to a PC if you have a reach weapon (and preferably some method of increasing your size) so you can defend a large area without losing the benefit of your defensive stance.

I had a look at Person Man's guide to shields and it says "a lot of people are going to tell you that you can do all of the cool stuff that a shield-centric build is capable of doing, but better, if only you do XYZ and/or use an Animated shield or buckler. In most cases, those people are right"...

On a more constructive note, there've been a couple of threads before about pretty much this exact topic, you might find some useful ideas in them:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?344454-Best-Prc-for-a-Dwarf-Fighter

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?291784-What-are-some-prestige-classes-for-a-tanky-dwarf-fighter

[el minster]

Dwarven Defender has three bad feats as prerequisites, if they want to take it maybe see if the DM will let them at least take Improved Toughness instead of Toughness to count as a prerequisite. Also, the class is only really much use to a PC if you have a reach weapon (and preferably some method of increasing your size) so you can defend a large area without losing the benefit of your defensive stance.

I had a look at Person Man's guide to shields and it says "a lot of people are going to tell you that you can do all of the cool stuff that a shield-centric build is capable of doing, but better, if only you do XYZ and/or use an Animated shield or buckler. In most cases, those people are right"...

On a more constructive note, there've been a couple of threads before about pretty much this exact topic, you might find some useful ideas in them:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?344454-Best-Prc-for-a-Dwarf-Fighter

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?291784-What-are-some-prestige-classes-for-a-tanky-dwarf-fighter

Ok, so you are right, but having a good AC is something.

[Biggus]

Ok, so you are right, but having a good AC is something.

The DD has a lot of good features, it's arguably the most indestructible class in the game in fact, but it's only good for PCs in fairly specific circumstances. For example, if the entire adventure is going to take place in fairly confined quarters such as down a dungeon so that the squishier party members can hide behind the DD without enemies just moving round them.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's nothing wrong with sticking with fighter if we're talking a low-op game and a relatively new player. If you insist he multiclass, barbarian's pretty good for a dip and knight's not awful for doing the whole durability thing without getting super complex.

Honestly though, when it comes to total newbs then I tend to point people towards ranger. It gets a bit of everything and allows a player to taste the whole system instead of just parts of it. Full base attack bonus and circumstantial bonuses lets them fight adequately and gets them used to bonuses clicking on and off 6+ skills on an okay list gives them a taste of the skill-check aspect of the game much more frequently than any other warrior class Limited spellcasting gives them a taste of spellcasting without overwhelming them with decisions and leaving them crippled by bad preparation choices.

It's just a -really- solid beginner class.

[Bucky]

Also, the class is only really much use to a PC if you have a reach weapon (and preferably some method of increasing your size) so you can defend a large area without losing the benefit of your defensive stance.

I recommend Floating Disk shenanigans to reposition around the battlefield without moving.

[Nifft]

Hmm, new player + Fighter 2...

Warblade has a very simple mechanical basis, and having 2 levels of Fighter is actually beneficial (at ECL 6 when you get your Warblade 4 stance).

Also Warblade is awesome.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

I'll second the recommendation of Crusader, since that's one of the few classes that can actually tank in 3.5, and actively benefits from using a shield as early as 3rd level (or 1st level if you have at least 4 other class levels) when you can pick up the Shield Block maneuver. Even before that, Iron Guard's Glare constantly punishes enemies for attacking any of your allies.

[AnimeTheCat]

There's nothing wrong with sticking with fighter if we're talking a low-op game and a relatively new player. If you insist he multiclass, barbarian's pretty good for a dip and knight's not awful for doing the whole durability thing without getting super complex.

Honestly though, when it comes to total newbs then I tend to point people towards ranger. It gets a bit of everything and allows a player to taste the whole system instead of just parts of it. Full base attack bonus and circumstantial bonuses lets them fight adequately and gets them used to bonuses clicking on and off 6+ skills on an okay list gives them a taste of the skill-check aspect of the game much more frequently than any other warrior class Limited spellcasting gives them a taste of spellcasting without overwhelming them with decisions and leaving them crippled by bad preparation choices.

It's just a -really- solid beginner class.

I really like this post and wanted to say it since there are no up/down/like buttons for posts (which isn't a complaint).


The DD has a lot of good features, it's arguably the most indestructible class in the game in fact, but it's only good for PCs in fairly specific circumstances. For example, if the entire adventure is going to take place in fairly confined quarters such as down a dungeon so that the squishier party members can hide behind the DD without enemies just moving round them.

In my experience, most games take place in locations where chokepoints are a thing (corridors, dungeons, city streets, etc.) Finding a chokepoint to fallback to is part of making a combat plan. Part of the "puzzle" of solving encounters is creating a plan that plays to your strengths.

On the note of good prestige classes/progressions for the character, I would suggest throwing in a single level of Cleric (the deity is not important TBH). This will give you some emergency healing capability, and self buffing to enlarge yourself (to large so you can fill up a bigger chokepoint) or allow you to change the battlefield in a variety of ways, potentially creating your own chokepoint in an area where there wouldn't normally be one (wall of X spells). Magic more or less exponentially expands your options (see linear fighter quadratic wizard arguments/discussions). A bit of cleric mixed with your Dwarven Defender could be fantastic for a new player. Don't over complicate things, just roll with a normal cleric.

[Gnaeus]

In my experience, most games take place in locations where chokepoints are a thing (corridors, dungeons, city streets, etc.) Finding a chokepoint to fallback to is part of making a combat plan. Part of the "puzzle" of solving encounters is creating a plan that plays to your strengths..

Chokepoints aren’t really the issue, though. DD wouldn’t be a bad concept if it were a level 1 base class, confronting animals and inexperienced/stupid humanoids who will play the choke point game.

Levels 4-7 you are a fighter with decidedly suboptimal feats. 4-8 with that cleric dip (otherwise good, but painful here, because of the BAB requirement).

So you enter at 9, and the class proceeds to 18. You start out at a point where flight is common. The SRD shows 32 CR 9 encounters.

5 water encounters which will likely be able to swim around you. You probably can’t choke point a dragon turtle.

13 fliers.

2 incorporeal/ethereal at will. 2 teleport at will. 1 earth meld. 1 tunneling specialist (which also destroys metal gear). And a caster who will be fireballing past you.

So at start level your schtick is suboptimal against 2/3 of equal CR encounters. You have already passed the point where most things will attack the armored dwarf in the doorway because he’s closest. That doesn’t even include the missile weapons, breath weapons, gaze attacks. It only goes downhill after 9.

And your best case scenario is the stupid heavy bruisers. Like the legendary bear. Yes, it will engage the dwarf. Of course, it’s a 20HD monster and you are level 9. So you are playing to its strength as well. But at least it will let you swing your waraxe at it. The colossal centipede is 24 HD but it will be attacking from 20 feet away.

[AnimeTheCat]

Chokepoints aren’t really the issue, though. DD wouldn’t be a bad concept if it were a level 1 base class, confronting animals and inexperienced/stupid humanoids who will play the choke point game.

Levels 4-7 you are a fighter with decidedly suboptimal feats. 4-8 with that cleric dip (otherwise good, but painful here, because of the BAB requirement).

So you enter at 9, and the class proceeds to 18. You start out at a point where flight is common. The SRD shows 32 CR 9 encounters.

5 water encounters which will likely be able to swim around you. You probably can’t choke point a dragon turtle.

13 fliers.

2 incorporeal/ethereal at will. 2 teleport at will. 1 earth meld. 1 tunneling specialist (which also destroys metal gear). And a caster who will be fireballing past you.

So at start level your schtick is suboptimal against 2/3 of equal CR encounters. You have already passed the point where most things will attack the armored dwarf in the doorway because he’s closest. That doesn’t even include the missile weapons, breath weapons, gaze attacks. It only goes downhill after 9.

Within the context of this being a new player, I'm guessing that the DM is not going to be throwing multiple encounters at the party that intentionally negate the abilities of one of the members. Though, a more experienced player will be able to find ways to play to their strengths again. If flight is common either lure the fling enemies into a space where they can't get around or above you (doorway, tunnel entrance, etc) and force them to play your game, or draw a bow and shoot them (you have full BAB and probably a good strength, so a +1 composite longbow with a strength rating equal to your modifier should not be farfetched for you to have). Incorporeal/ethereal, get a ghost touched weapon or just roll with your 50% miss chance from a magic weapon. Water encounters, either be on a boat or just avoid the water all together if possible, If no possible hope you're not in the middle of an ocean or massive lake. If not, yeah that's going to be a difficult encounter, but not just for you.

Also, I'm not saying that it's not a distinctly meh class, but since that's the direction the OP is leaning I find it more constructive to just recommend things along those lines rather than tell them to play a different character. Figher itself is distinctly meh, and falls victim to all the same encounter issues. I didn't say that because it wouldn't have benefitted the OP in the slightest.

In closing, do I think DD is good? no. Do I think it should/could be a base class? yep. Did I want to tell that to the person asking about improving a fighter? no, because it wouldn't really make a difference anyway. Why waste the effort?

[Gnaeus]

Within the context of this being a new player, I'm guessing that the DM is not going to be throwing multiple encounters at the party that intentionally negate the abilities of one of the members. Though, a more experienced player will be able to find ways to play to their strengths again. If flight is common either lure the fling enemies into a space where they can't get around or above you (doorway, tunnel entrance, etc) and force them to play your game,)

Unless that player were mentally handicapped he should. Don’t worry about the fact that you suck against 2/3 of all printed monsters and most level appropriate NPCs because the DM may not use them is probably the worst advice I’ve ever seen on this forum.


(you have full BAB and probably a good strength, so a +1 composite longbow with a strength rating equal to your modifier should not be farfetched for you to have)

You are a heavy armor Strength build with a side of cleric. Your strength is less an issue than your dex. None of those creatures remotely care about your +10/+5 longbow routine. Might as well tell him to roll random dice on his turn.


incorporeal/ethereal, get a ghost touched weapon or just roll with your 50% miss chance from a magic weapon. Water encounters, either be on a boat or just avoid the water all together if possible, If no possible hope you're not in the middle of an ocean or massive lake. If not, yeah that's going to be a difficult encounter, but not just for you.

The point isn’t that you can hit it. The point is that it will walk right around any choke point you can create.

Oh. Just don’t do water encounters. Sweet.


Also, I'm not saying that it's not a distinctly meh class, but since that's the direction the OP is leaning I find it more constructive to just recommend things along those lines rather than tell them to play a different character. I didn't say that because it wouldn't have benefitted the OP in the slightest.

In closing, do I think DD is good? no. Do I think it should/could be a base class? yep. Did I want to tell that to the person asking about improving a fighter? no, because it wouldn't really make a difference anyway. Why waste the effort?

Because he came here for advice and giving him bad advice is mean.


Figher itself is distinctly meh, and falls victim to all the same encounter issues

Fighter is meh. Fighter doesn’t fall prey to the same encounter issues. A fighter who isn’t locked into a bunch of suboptimal feat choices at least has options to engage the enemy and deliver punishing damage. The fact that the demon can teleport is mostly irrelevant. Yeah, the fighter needs a flight item, but he doesn’t have to pretend that the dragon is going to engage him in a 10x10 corridor. Tank isn’t a role 3.5 supports, at least not after about level 5. But striker is.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I will note that the dwarven fighter substitution levels are all very, very crappy. I would very much recommend that you make all the features free, instead of having them replace the bonus feats. Failing that, just don't use them at all. Use Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape p. 10), Shield Bearer (Dragon #310 p. 38) or even straight fighter instead.

Shield Bearer gives you the ability to use your shield in place of an unarmed attack to initiate a Trip, Grapple, Disarm, etcetera. It qualifies you for follow-up feats as Improved Unarmed Strike does. Pretty cool.


If you print out the cards, crusader can be new player friendly, and a good choice.
Seconded.


Now add Shield Charge and Shield Slam (Complete Warrior), and she's got attack + debuff. The only piece that's missing is Pounce, which is just a 1-level dip away. After that, going Barbarian 2 for Improved Trip is also just a level away. If she wants to go further with the TWF stuff, Ranger 2 and/or Ranger 6 lets her pickup TWF/Improved TWF without worrying about the Dex requirements.
Seconded also.

Re-reading Shield Slam, it's pretty badly written. "As a charge action, you can make one attack with your shield" is just so clunky. Still, let's assume it's just any one shield attack at the end of a charge, for simplicity's sake.

Dwarven fighter 2/spirit lion totem wolf totem barbarian 2/crusader 2 and continuing in crusader
(1) Improved Shield Bash
(fighter 1) Shield Specialization
(fighter 2) Agile Shield Fighter
(3) Shield Charge
(barbarian 2) Improved Trip
(6) Shield Slam
(9) Devoted Bulwark
(12) Faith Unswerving
(15) Extra Granted Maneuver
(18) Martial Study (War Master's Charge)

At level 18, you also get Immortal Fortitude. At level 19, you can pick up another 9th-level maneuver, which will probably be Strike of Righteous Vitality. At that point, your opening move is something like: War Master's Charge > everyone can charge > you make five attacks, of which one shield attack > target is tripped, stunned, and dazed and you get a bonus attack. From there, you're very hard to kill, and you can absorb allies' damage as well (they are near you because they just charged with you, so they're in range for Devoted Bulwark), though you are very much specialized in fighting one target, and it must be in melee. That's probably not bad for a beginner, though.

The last ~14 levels are really just speculative, there's every chance the campaign will end before you reach those levels. Still, it's nice to know what to look forward to.

[AnimeTheCat]

Unless that player were mentally handicapped he should. Don’t worry about the fact that you suck against 2/3 of all printed monsters and most level appropriate NPCs because the DM may not use them is probably the worst advice I’ve ever seen on this forum.
See, I actually think you're entirely wrong here. CR appropriate encounters for level 9 do, as you listed, include those flying, teleporting, etc creatures. But only one of them. What is FAR more likely is going to be multiple lower CR creatures to create an EL appropriate encounter, with a single CR appropriate foe as a "boss" or final encounter. Against 5-6 CR appropriate creatures, you're not going to have the same struggles.


Oh. Just don’t do water encounters. Sweet.
How many publised adventures that aren't specifically aquatic have water encounters in them? From what I've experienced, not that many, and even if they do it's one maybe two encounters the entire adventure. See the first sentence of the post you're responding to where I said " throwing multiple encounters at the party that intentionally negate the abilities of one of the members." Intentionally bypassing a player to the point of excluding them is bad DMing, but apparently you want to take out the new player and ruin their first experience with D&D so go ahead and run an underwater campaign with a fighter, let me know when that player has fun too. A single water encounter is fine, encounter after encounter of water encounters that bypass or negate the player is bad DMing. If you beg to differ, I don't want to play in your games where you don't make moves to include the entire party because that sounds lame and no fun.


Because he came here for advice and giving him bad advice is mean.
How was my advice bad or really any different than anyone else's? Why did you specifically respond to my advice, ESPECIALLY when the OP SPECIFICALLY said "Going for dwarven defender and dwarven paragon sounds good" indicating that perhaps those things match the power level of their campaign. Not every campaign uses high power encounters.


Fighter is meh. Fighter doesn’t fall prey to the same encounter issues. A fighter who isn’t locked into a bunch of suboptimal feat choices at least has options to engage the enemy and deliver punishing damage. The fact that the demon can teleport is mostly irrelevant. Yeah, the fighter needs a flight item, but he doesn’t have to pretend that the dragon is going to engage him in a 10x10 corridor. Tank isn’t a role 3.5 supports, at least not after about level 5. But striker is.
The dragon won't engage in the 10x10 corridor if you don't give it a reason to, so give it a reason to. Give it a reason to land or, here's a idea, don't be a crap DM that ignores a party member. You have all the power in the game, don't use it to tell a player they made bad choices. Use it to make a fun game for the entire group. Is it a game design flaw that fighters are mostly crap choices, yeah. Does your game have to feel like it falls prey to that? no.

Stop trying to say that anyone's version of playing the game is incorrect or not fun, because that's not good advice and, as you said:

bad advice is mean.

[Gnaeus]

See, I actually think you're entirely wrong here. CR appropriate encounters for level 9 do, as you listed, include those flying, teleporting, etc creatures. But only one of them. What is FAR more likely is going to be multiple lower CR creatures to create an EL appropriate encounter, with a single CR appropriate foe as a "boss" or final encounter. Against 5-6 CR appropriate creatures, you're not going to have the same struggles.

Nope. You are actually wrong here. The CR encounter is normal. A boss encounter is likely CR +2 or 3.

Yeah, you could get groups instead of single individuals. No, that doesn’t help you. At level 9 you are much more likely to get something like a band of seasoned mercenaries. Who will still ignore the brick in the door and respond with ranged attacks. And by level 12 you have half a dozen creatures who are all flying/earth melding/phasing/teleporting past you.



How many publised adventures that aren't specifically aquatic have water encounters in them? From what I've experienced, not that many, and even if they do it's one maybe two encounters the entire adventure. See the first sentence of the post you're responding to where I said " throwing multiple encounters at the party that intentionally negate the abilities of one of the members." Intentionally bypassing a player to the point of excluding them is bad DMing, but apparently you want to take out the new player and ruin their first experience with D&D so go ahead and run an underwater campaign with a fighter, let me know when that player has fun too. A single water encounter is fine, encounter after encounter of water encounters that bypass or negate the player is bad DMing. If you beg to differ, I don't want to play in your games where you don't make moves to include the entire party because that sounds lame and no fun.

Water encounters are only a small portion of the CR appropriate encounters he can’t play meaningfully in. When you design a character who is only functional in less than 1/3 of encounters, that’s not the DMs fault. Why not advise him to play an int 8 wizard and blame the DM. Or a commoner. That’s about where you are at with DD. It’s a tier-1 PRC aimed at fighters.

I don’t want to play in your games because deliberately handicapping a new players build so he can’t contribute sounds lame and no fun.



How was my advice bad or really any different than anyone else's? Why did you specifically respond to my advice, ESPECIALLY when the OP SPECIFICALLY said "Going for dwarven defender and dwarven paragon sounds good" indicating that perhaps those things match the power level of their campaign. Not every campaign uses high power encounters

Crusader
Barbarian cleric multi class.
Dd is bad but thematically appropriate.
Fighter barbarian ranger
Dd is bad.
Good ac is something
Dd is bad
Floating disk
Ranger
Warblade
Crusader

Your advice is different because only you are defending the DD as a viable choice.

The dragon won't engage in the 10x10 corridor if you don't give it a reason to, so give it a reason to. Give it a reason to land or, here's a idea, don't be a crap DM that ignores a party member. You have all the power in the game, don't use it to tell a player they made bad choices. Use it to make a fun game for the entire group. Is it a game design flaw that fighters are mostly crap choices, yeah. Does your game have to feel like it falls prey to that? no

Fighter 20 is better than DD. Fighters can be good at useful things. Monks are better than DD. Samurai are better than DD. Mixing in archery feats on your Fighter S&B build is still better than DD. You won’t accidentally get worse than dodge, endurance, toughness. It’s a class with no out of combat utility that also sucks at 2/3 of combats or more. It is a class whose only job is “being a door” which comes on line when the wizard is getting actual walls. It is literally worse than (any PC class 20). Losing in both utility and combat to the Soulknife. It’s actually worse than knight in the exact same niche. That’s no excuse to advocate worse than fighters as playable.

My definition of a crap dm certainly includes taking smarter than human flying casting monsters and having them fist fight a brick in an enclosed space. Virtually all of those monsters are smarter than the defender. They should be run as such.

When you take your first DD level you are already past the point in the game where stupid enemies are common threats. And the ones that do exist are better dealt with by means other than having an entire PC whose sole job is to block their hits with his face.


Stop trying to say that anyone's version of playing the game is incorrect or not fun, because that's not good advice and, as you said:

You said my game wasn’t fun 4 times in your post. You’ve no room to talk.

I’m actually a strong advocate for having classes at a strong range of power levels. But the magic is predictability. DD is a class that should come with a warning label not to play it so that if I wanted to play in a game of newbs I could nerf myself by playing a class that gave up its legs. It should never, never, never be handed to a new player who has no idea of how gimped it is, and lacks the considerable opti fu needed to counter it’s massive problems.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you're going to insist on arguing over encounter design and challenge rating, please be clear with your terms.

Encounter Level (EL) is the level of the whole encounter. The DMG suggests around half of all encounters should be at a level equal to the party's average level.

Challenge Rating (CR) is the difficulty measure of an individual creature.

Generally, two creatures of a given challenge rating X make up an encounter level of X+2. A third makes it EL X+3 and a 4th makes EL X+4. As the number of creatures increases the increase in encounter level grows at a diminishing rate, as seen in the table on DMG page 49.

Encounters from modules and the personal experience of many a GM will tell you that level appropriate encounters, that is encounters where EL is equal to party level, are rarely comprised of a single enemy of a CR of the party's level. Action economy tends to shred such encounters.

In the case of an ECL 9 dwarven defender, most encounters he experiences will likely be comprised of a handful of CR 7 or lower foes that, nevertheless, make up an EL 9 or lower encounter unless the GM departs from the given guidelines in the game.

Now I'm not saying this makes DD good.What I am saying is that it makes the "2/3 of encounters" assessment questionable.

I'll also say that discarding the water encounters doesn't strike me as particularly unreasonable. Unless you're doing a maritime campaign, a GM will have to go out of the way to include them.

__________________


Now, personally, I don't like Dwarven Defender. Mobility is something that comes at a premium and the class actively discards it unless you find a work-around like standing on a flying carpet or a chariot or the like and the features that you get for it aren't worth the levels, especially with those late entry requirements.

That doesn't mean it doesn't have anything going for it at all though. Con to AC is pretty nice and when you do need to hold your ground defensive stance can help. I wouldn't go for more than a dip though and even then only if I met the requirements incidentally most of the time. Maybe on an ironsoul forgemaster, I might look at that juicy AC bonus since con is a primary stat for an incarnum user.

[Gnaeus]

If you're going to insist on arguing over encounter design and challenge rating, please be clear with your terms.

Encounter Level (EL) is the level of the whole encounter. The DMG suggests around half of all encounters should be at a level equal to the party's average level.

Challenge Rating (CR) is the difficulty measure of an individual creature.

Generally, two creatures of a given challenge rating X make up an encounter level of X+2. A third makes it EL X+3 and a 4th makes EL X+4. As the number of creatures increases the increase in encounter level grows at a diminishing rate, as seen in the table on DMG page 49.

Encounters from modules and the personal experience of many a GM will tell you that level appropriate encounters, that is encounters where EL is equal to party level, are rarely comprised of a single enemy of a CR of the party's level. Action economy tends to shred such encounters.

In the case of an ECL 9 dwarven defender, most encounters he experiences will likely be comprised of a handful of CR 7 or lower foes that, nevertheless, make up an EL 9 or lower encounter unless the GM departs from the given guidelines in the game.

Now I'm not saying this makes DD good.What I am saying is that it makes the "2/3 of encounters" assessment questionable.

I'll also say that discarding the water encounters doesn't strike me as particularly unreasonable. Unless you're doing a maritime campaign, a GM will have to go out of the way to include them.

I apologize for term misuse. But again, even if you aren’t messing with 9 CR encounters at 9, you are dealing with half a dozen of them at 12, and you are no more able to deal with them at 12 than 9. And the threatening encounters are often CR+1 or 2 or 3.

If it were ONLY water encounters, sure. It’s all water encounters, flying encounters, teleporters, ethereal, invisible, swarms, any encounter in the open, anything ranged, or aoe. Anything that won’t obligingly walk up to you and trade blows. I think 2/3 is generous. Water encounters are a part of the suck. A small part of a big pile. And again, of the things that WILL do that, there’s a sizable number you don’t want them to, because you are now engaging vastly over HD’d creatures on their terms. Instead of just flying over the ginormous bear or centipede and killing them at range.



That doesn't mean it doesn't have anything going for it at all though. Con to AC is pretty nice and when you do need to hold your ground defensive stance can help. I wouldn't go for more than a dip though and even then only if I met the requirements incidentally most of the time. Maybe on an ironsoul forgemaster, I might look at that juicy AC bonus since con is a primary stat for an incarnum user.

You are thinking of Deepwarden. DD doesn’t get anything as good as that. Deepwarden is cool. Admittedly it is mostly a 2 level dip but at least you get good skills and easy entry. (Especially if you traded away Track for anything). Yes! Take Deepwarden! It’s better at literally everything. You could think of it as Unchained Dwarven Defender. (For OP’s fighter 2, the entry would be Fighter 2/Ranger 5/Deepwarden. Earlier if you already have climb or jump. No lost feats, but trade away ranger track if you can).

DD gets
a +4 dodge bonus spread over 10 levels.
5/day worse than rages
DR 3 at about ECL 13 or 14, DR 6 when the wizard gets 9ths
Some trap sense (why? Because barbarian gets it I guess)
Immunity to any rogue who is multiple levels below you (imp uncanny dodge based on your DD levels)

There is no level where those anemic class features even beat fighter bonus feats every 2. Let alone make up for the ones you set on fire.

[Biggus]

I recommend Floating Disk shenanigans to reposition around the battlefield without moving.

It depends how strictly the DM interprets "he cannot move from the spot he is defending". If movement which doesn't involve using your feet is allowed, short-range teleportation items like the Anklet of Translocation (MIC p.71, 1,400GPs) can improve the Dwarven Defender's usefulness considerably.



In my experience, most games take place in locations where chokepoints are a thing (corridors, dungeons, city streets, etc.)

Depends on the DM, I've played in quite a lot of games set mostly in the wilderness.


Chokepoints aren’t really the issue, though. DD wouldn’t be a bad concept if it were a level 1 base class, confronting animals and inexperienced/stupid humanoids who will play the choke point game.

Levels 4-7 you are a fighter with decidedly suboptimal feats. 4-8 with that cleric dip (otherwise good, but painful here, because of the BAB requirement).

So you enter at 9, and the class proceeds to 18. You start out at a point where flight is common. The SRD shows 32 CR 9 encounters.

5 water encounters which will likely be able to swim around you. You probably can’t choke point a dragon turtle.

13 fliers.

2 incorporeal/ethereal at will. 2 teleport at will. 1 earth meld. 1 tunneling specialist (which also destroys metal gear). And a caster who will be fireballing past you.

So at start level your schtick is suboptimal against 2/3 of equal CR encounters. You have already passed the point where most things will attack the armored dwarf in the doorway because he’s closest. That doesn’t even include the missile weapons, breath weapons, gaze attacks. It only goes downhill after 9.

And your best case scenario is the stupid heavy bruisers. Like the legendary bear. Yes, it will engage the dwarf. Of course, it’s a 20HD monster and you are level 9. So you are playing to its strength as well. But at least it will let you swing your waraxe at it. The colossal centipede is 24 HD but it will be attacking from 20 feet away.

This is why I gave a dungeon adventure as an example of where the Dwarven Defender is useful. You don't get many water encounters, flyers can't fly over your head if you're in a doorway unless they're very small, and even if they do you at least get an attack of opportunity against them. So in that situation the fraction of encounters where you're useful increases from 7/32 (22%) to 20/27 (74%).

[Gnaeus]

This is why I gave a dungeon adventure as an example of where the Dwarven Defender is useful. You don't get many water encounters, flyers can't fly over your head if you're in a doorway unless they're very small, and even if they do you at least get an attack of opportunity against them. So in that situation the fraction of encounters where you're useful increases from 7/32 (22%) to 20/27 (74%).

I still think that’s wildly optimistic.

So you open a door and it’s a room full of guys. You crank down into the door.

If they all cluster into the door you get to do your thing. Which is still not good. But you can Use your schtick.
If they scatter you are boned. If you pursue you lose your stance and take a penalty for the rest of combat. Or you can stand there and be a wall while they mobilize everyone in the dungeon to come around behind you.
If they start shooting at the wizard, or casting or breath weaponing you are boned. If you go to them you break your stance. If you stand there you have become cover for both sides of the combat.

You are way better making an attacking based character, like a barbarian, or damage fighter. Then you can pursue or get in their faces. Those guys can still stand in a door, in the rare cases in which you really need someone in a door.

But if you want to be an AC tank, there are still half a dozen easy low tier options better than DD. Knight is better at area denial, doesn’t cost 3 feats, and has an “attack me mechanic”. Deepwarden has better AC, is equally dwarfy, and has some utility, while retaining movement. You could just make a fighter and spend those 8 extra feats (3 for entry, 5 for 10 levels) on defenses or BFC. Or a Paladin and have better defenses and spells. Or a barbarian and have actual rage, and it’s own better PRCs. Or of course crusader or warlord or psi war or anything Actually good. And that’s without touching casters. Because a cleric can also be a better door than a DD. It is the worst option for a bad style. You couldn’t make it worse without actively trying to tank a character. Fighter 4/wiz or sor1/Green Star Adept 9 is better in almost every way, and that’s something else I wouldn’t recommend to an enemy.