How prepared wizards are really?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Here's a very interesting post:


You missed Mordenkainen's Disjunction in that combo. That's one of the key components so that magic items and etc. don't work, and so that the wizard won't get any loot at all (but that doesn't matter because the wizard will just Wish for money, or whatever ... like the GM will allow that :smallamused:).

But don't ask me how wizards actually have all of these spells memorized, all at once. Remember, they also have Invoke Magic memorized at all times just in case a rogue with UMD approaches with an Antimagic Field up.

They have to have at least one casting of Time Stop available every day, because all wizards solve everything with Time Stop. Considering how often it's invoked here, I'd think more like two or three Time Stops might be needed ... but at least one.

They always Wish for stuff they need, like to transport travelers or make money, so they need at least one casting of Wish.

Wizards never don't have Foresight active, which at 20th level lasts 200 minutes, or slightly more than three hours. We'll assuming all wizards are loaded with metamagic rods, because I'm told they are, so that can get bumped up to a little more than six hours. We're still probably going to need at least two castings, unless this wizard spends most of his time in leisure (in the safety of an MMM, of course, because all wizards always spend all leisure time there).

So let me tally this up ...

Two Foresights, one Wish (minimum), one Time Stop (minimum), one Invoke Magic, one Mordenkainen's Disjunction. Six 9th-level spells ... minimum. I'm not just pulling these spells out of nowhere, either -- these are all spells I've been told wizards "will just" use whenever faced with this or that challenge, meaning they clearly must have them available at all times for just such an occasion. I've probably missed a few besides, and let's not forget that these are strictly the minimums needed, while about three Time Stops is probably more suitable given how often it's being invoked.

So, let's see, human wizard with 3 levels of archmage. Intelligence 18 base +5 advancement +5 inherent +6 item +2 prodigy = 36. Spell slots are as follows:


1st: 4+3
2nd: 4+3
3rd: 4+3
4th: 4+3
5th: 4+3
6th: 4+2-1 mastery of shaping
7th: 4+2-1 arcane reach
8th: 4+2-1 mastery of elements
9th: 4+2

So, if you wanted to make the most prepared wizard, that is able to face the widest variety of foes, what would you put in the above spell slots? Assume that you're just after rest and you're memorising your spells for the day.

The objective of this is to see just how many of the "killer combos" and "standard tactics" a wizard can do per day, because most people that devise these combos forget there are 4-5 encounters per day and that for a wizard to know in advance what those encounters are, spell slots must be spent on divinations.

[mostlyharmful]

Here's a very interesting post:



So, let's see, human wizard with 3 levels of archmage. Intelligence 18 base +5 advancement +5 inherent +6 item +2 prodigy = 36. Spell slots are as follows:



So, if you wanted to make the most prepared wizard, that is able to face the widest variety of foes, what would you put in the above spell slots? Assume that you're just after rest and you're memorising your spells for the day.

The objective of this is to see just how many of the "killer combos" and "standard tactics" a wizard can do per day, because most people that devise these combos forget there are 4-5 encounters per day and that for a wizard to know in advance what those encounters are, spell slots must be spent on divinations.

bear in mind that most divinations are cast well before a wizard enters an area that isn't entirely secure, then bear inmind that many combos rely on the wizard being both surprised a nd alone to require so many spells over such a short time. that being said it's obvious that a maxed out wiz can't handle the arbitrarily allotted 4-5 CR appropriate obsitcals per day at full efficiancy. But then they shouldn't have to, preperation, retreat spells and impenetrable defensive measures should account for wizards being ready for most real challenges even if it means they take significantly longer to accomplish any spacific mission.

[Kaelik]

Here's a very interesting post:



So, let's see, human wizard with 3 levels of archmage. Intelligence 18 base +5 advancement +5 inherent +6 item +2 prodigy = 36. Spell slots are as follows:



So, if you wanted to make the most prepared wizard, that is able to face the widest variety of foes, what would you put in the above spell slots? Assume that you're just after rest and you're memorising your spells for the day.

The objective of this is to see just how many of the "killer combos" and "standard tactics" a wizard can do per day, because most people that devise these combos forget there are 4-5 encounters per day and that for a wizard to know in advance what those encounters are, spell slots must be spent on divinations.

Well for starters, I'd take Five levels of Archmage to turn 5th level spell slots into 9th level SLAs. And I'd never waste a High Arcana on Mastery of Elements.

Then I'd use 4th levels for Celerities. 9th SLAs of Time Stop. 5th for Teleporting. 6th for Divinations. A 9th on Foresight (Rod extended). 7th and 8th would be for killing people/and or buffs.

That gives me a good 4 encounters of Celerity/Time Stop/whatever easy, and the ability to end the day whenever I want. I have some leeway in the leftover 9th lvl slots.

[Ninja Chocobo]

Why would any Wizard take Mastery of Elements?

[Azerian Kelimon]

You would, if limited to core, because there's no energy substitution there, and sonic acid fog is pwnzoring.

[The_Snark]

Well for starters, I'd take Five levels of Archmage to turn 5th level spell slots into 9th level SLAs. And I'd never waste a High Arcana on Mastery of Elements.

Then I'd use 4th levels for Celerities. 9th SLAs of Time Stop. 5th for Teleporting. 6th for Divinations. A 9th on Foresight (Rod extended). 7th and 8th would be for killing people/and or buffs.

That gives me a good 4 encounters of Celerity/Time Stop/whatever easy, and the ability to end the day whenever I want. I have some leeway in the leftover 9th lvl slots.

What leftover 9th-level slots?

You have a Foresight up in one slot. You gave up all the others for 10 uses of Time Stop... which you can't do, by the way; you have to be able to have 9th-level spell slots in order to get 9th-level SLAs, and you don't get those until level 17. So you have Time Stop 6/day and 3 spell slots left over, one of which is spent on Foresight. Even an Extended Foresight is only going to last you 6 hours, so you probably want two of those.

One 9th-level slot left over.


Why would any Wizard take Mastery of Elements?

It's also very useful with the Orb spells. Orbs of Fire/Cold have the best side effects, but they're also the most commonly resisted spells. It also lets you target any elemental vulnerabilities that a monster has.

Direct damage is not always a bad decision, although focusing on it usually is. At high levels, you frequently encounter enemies who are immune to most save-or-die and save-or-suck combos, leaving you with a choice between buffing and direct damage. Of the two, buffing can be done before combat.

[Jasdoif]

I suppose you could use pearls of power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#pearlofPower) if you need a particular buff spell multiple times throughout the day.

[mostlyharmful]

There's a great faerun item in i think players guide that gives you extended to any spell 6 or lower 1/Day for 3700 gp. That won't give you higher level uberness but it will cover your ass for a whole long way to get there and still be usefull and cheap.

[Reel On, Love]

Er, it depends in part on the game, the wizard's party composition, what the wizard has been/is going to be fighting (if the BBEG and his undead minions are all humans, it's gonna be different than if they're all undead, say). It also depends on what the wizard is doing--a wizard who's just living his life and focusing on not getting killed by specialist agents who want to eliminate him is going to look different from a wizard adventuring with a group of loyal, trustworthy friends from a wizard who's trying to take over a country or something.

[Jack_Simth]

What leftover 9th-level slots?

You have a Foresight up in one slot. You gave up all the others for 10 uses of Time Stop... which you can't do, by the way; you have to be able to have 9th-level spell slots in order to get 9th-level SLAs, and you don't get those until level 17. So you have Time Stop 6/day and 3 spell slots left over, one of which is spent on Foresight. Even an Extended Foresight is only going to last you 6 hours, so you probably want two of those.

One 9th-level slot left over.

Might I suggest that he only intends to use two 9th level spell slots and two 5th level spell slots for 4 spell-like Time Stops? Especially as it also leaves him with some 5th level spell slots for the teleports mentioned?

Taken that way, one slot for Foresight and two 9th level spell slots burned for Time Stop as a SLA, he's got three 9th level spell slots unspecified.

Oh - and the paranoid Wizard ALWAYS keeps a Wish prepared, unless it's Mastered. You never know when the DM will send a sufficiently skilled Rogue your way ... and a standard, full spellbook is a nonmagical item with a market value of 10,000 gp - well within the safe limit of Wish ... and a real lifesaver if it comes to it. Plus, the travel segment of Wish includes the phrase "regardless of local conditions" - theoretically, a Wish will get you out of an area covered by both a Forbiddance and a Dimension Lock, or a plane specifically designed as a prison... (unless, of course, the effect specifies Wish as one of the things it stops - after all, the specific generally overrides the general case).

[Skjaldbakka]

they take significantly longer to accomplish any specific mission.

Which means that they fail a significant amount of missions, because there are a great deal of time-sensitive missions.

[Kaelik]

What leftover 9th-level slots?

You have a Foresight up in one slot. You gave up all the others for 10 uses of Time Stop... which you can't do, by the way; you have to be able to have 9th-level spell slots in order to get 9th-level SLAs, and you don't get those until level 17. So you have Time Stop 6/day and 3 spell slots left over, one of which is spent on Foresight. Even an Extended Foresight is only going to last you 6 hours, so you probably want two of those.

One 9th-level slot left over.

Well ignoring for the moment that this was covered perfectly by Jack_Simth, I said four times a day, which results in using 2 9th lvl slots which I get at 19 and 20. (Both times able to cast 9th level spells.) Given that I also have level 18 to do the same thing if I choose (though I would do it with a different spell, since four is enough Time Stops.)

And though I don't mention it in my post, I usually assume that anything worth doing the Wizard can do with only 6 hours out and about. I also count on the ability to retreat from most every situation if I need it.

Those three left over 9th lvl slots can be used for offense, another foresight, wish, or any number of other things. They can even be used for Invoke Magic if needed by using Alacritous Cognition.


Which means that they fail a significant amount of missions, because there are a great deal of time-sensitive missions.

I don't agree with this portrayal of Wizards. I see them as being able to accomplish anything, especially time sensitive missions better then any other class. The only issue is that (without excessive cheese) they can only accomplish a few of those things a day. It becomes an issue not of saving the people from the rampaging Dragon (easily done, better then any other class) but instead that if your only defense is a high level Wizard, eventually someone is going to come along with huge numbers that they send in waves, timed to never let the Wizard sleep. That doesn't matter if the Wizard doesn't care about anyone else, and just spends his time in the MMM all the time, but if he is trying to protect a city, he better have help.

[The_Snark]

Well ignoring for the moment that this was covered perfectly by Jack_Simth, I said four times a day, which results in using 2 9th lvl slots which I get at 19 and 20. (Both times able to cast 9th level spells.) Given that I also have level 18 to do the same thing if I choose (though I would do it with a different spell, since four is enough Time Stops.)

And though I don't mention it in my post, I usually assume that anything worth doing the Wizard can do with only 6 hours out and about. I also count on the ability to retreat from most every situation if I need it.

Those three left over 9th lvl slots can be used for offense, another foresight, wish, or any number of other things. They can even be used for Invoke Magic if needed by using Alacritous Cognition.

My apologies. I did miss the part where you specified that you'd only be exchanging two; the first sentence only said exchange 9th level slots. :smallredface:

Assuming that a wizard can do anything worth doing in 6 hours, though, assumes that the wizard is the instigator of an encounter, which for adventurers is all too often not the case. Unless this wizard is spending 18 hours a day in his Magnificent Mansion, it almost certainly won't be.

If he is, nobody's going to be able to find him when the dragon goes on a rampage. Adventures are oten reactive.

And I believe that what Skjaldbakka meant by time-sensitive was a mission in which a certain number of obstacles must be surmounted in under a given amount of time. For the sake of argument, let's say this is rescuing a princess from an unknown enemy, who has taken refuge in a vast dungeon complex which has been dimensionally locked. (Reasonable for a very high-level adventure). The wizard could ask his cleric buddy to cast Divination, or could cast Contact Other Plane himself (probably burning a scroll to do it), and then they'd know that the enemy was, say, a dragon, or a cult.

Then the wizard (and, presumably, his intrepid adventuring companions) venture on down through the dungeon complex. Multiple encounters, however, will start to go through his more powerful spells. He can't keep pulling off the deadly omniscient wizard, and resting or retreating will cost him valuable time. All classes suffer from attrition of this sort, of course, but a wizard who has many wards up and employs Time Stop to set up deadly attack series will be out a lot faster, especially when against an enemy who can dispel magic. (And at level 20, some of those encounters will feature dispels. Disjunctions if the DM is evil.)

The wizard is very good at these time-sensitive encounters when he can bypass large portions of the challenge with a single spell. Divinations can easily locate wherever you need to be, teleportations can get you to the critical point, and the wizard is well suited to taking out a single objective at that point. Of course, by 20th level, there are spells that can bypass most types of obstacles, so there are a lot of time-sensitive missions that fall into this category.

[Hasivel]

Which means that they fail a significant amount of missions, because there are a great deal of time-sensitive missions.
Um, significantly longer in this case probably means the Wizard won't blow multiple high level spells to vaporize all enemies in the opening round. The Wizard vs. X combos typically do this because it leaves the enemy unable to counter in any way, the Wizard uses a spell to go first, a spell to get more rounds, and then those rounds on spells that insta-gib the enemy.

Without the expending of spells like water that just means the Wizard probably takes three or four rounds to incinerate the enemy instead of one round. I can't imagine there are many time sensitive missions where those extra 12 seconds are a fail/succeed issue.

Let's see, for what I'd those slots on, assuming core only and that my wizard has no help (I'm a notoriously bad player at casters so people are prolly going to laugh at me for this). Also I'm going to ignore most of my spells below 5th level on the grounds that they rarely add up to great combos. There will be the usual assortment of fireballs, invisibilities, flies, etc.

You'll notice I'm a fan of unused slots. They'll be for my attack spells, my other spells can easily buy me the fifteen minutes I need to fill them all with exactly what my enemy needs most to to kick his annoying addiction to breathing. And I have all sorts of ways to escape, or gather information.

5th: 4+3
Dominate Person, Teleport, False Vision, Wall of Force, Contact Other Plane, 2x Unprepared Slots.

Dominate Person should be obvious in it's use.

Teleport can get me 2000 miles away as a standard action, I won't count on it for travel but it's a nice "Escape and Plan next move" play if I need it. Since it's an emergency spell I will always use it to travel to a preplanned safe spot in my home. This gives me less than 3% failure rate, which I can live with.

Intelligence at my level means I can abuse Contact Other Plane without much worry of intelligence loss unless I go around demanding answers from greater dieties, should I have anything to worry about I'll contact an appropriate power and ask it for the 411. It's not a good divination but it can point me in the right direction for my other, higher level divinations so I don't waste them.

Wall of Force is a quick protection from (almost) everything spell to throw up to buy a couple of rounds if needed.

I can fill unprepared slots in 15 minutes of study each. Should my prying eyes, Contact other Plane, or other spells show trouble on the way and I can buy that many minutes I can have the perfect spell for them ready.

False Vision means my enemy won't scry and teleport in with his own crazy combo, instead he'll have an utterly mistaken notion of my position, and teleport into an active volcano or something. It lasts all day and is one of the few spells I'd be willing to expend the material component on every single day.

6th: 4+2-1 mastery of shaping
Antimagic Field, Greater Dispel Magic, Contigency, True Seeing, 1 Unprepared Slot.

Antimagic Field and Greater Dispel Magic guarantee that anybody who somehow has better magic than mine won't get to use it on me. Of course given that I'm a mage that's a last ditch plan.

I shouldn't need to explain the awesomeness that is contigency. Too many good uses to list here. Easiest is to link it up to a timestop to activate in the event I take too much damage, or teleport to go home instantly if I fall unconcious (Familiar has a potion of Healing and instructions to stay touching me and administer the potion the minute we get home. Any other damage can probably be handled by Underlings at my home).

True Seeing is tricky, it's too short-range and expensive to have on all the time. If I could, I'd permanency it and take the EXP hit.

7th: 4+2-1 arcane reach
Forcecage, Limited Wish, Magnificent Mansion, Banishment, Greater Teleport, 1 Unused Slot

Forcecage needs no explanation.

Neither does Limited Wish. It'll only be cast in an emergency, of course.

Magnificent Mansion means never having to stay on guard duty.

Banishment keeps summons and powerful outsiders from bugging me.

Greater Teleport saves me that nasty 3% failure on my normal teleport, hence why it's a backup.

8th: 4+2-1 mastery of elements
Greater Prying Eyes, Polymorph any Object, Summon Monster 8, Mass Charm Monster, 1 Unused Slot

Greater Prying Eyes will be my basic early warning system. Cast it every morning and it lasts all day, I'll have dozens of eyes at this level and scatter them all around myself with instructions to follow my planned route and return if they see any creature that's hostile, defined as creatures with HD > 5 since I'll assume I can easily vaporize anything less than that without needing the help. This gives me a decent chance of knowing of any powerful creature within a mile of my position. Note that the eyes have True Seeing and +25 on spot checks so very few tricks will work to get past them.

Polymorph any Object should be obvious.

Mass Charm Monster can turn a horde into buddies easily.

9th: 4+2
2x High Arcana'd Time Stop SLAs, Disjunction, Wish, Foresight, 1 Unused Slot

Time Stop 4 times a day. 'Nuff said.

Foresight: Extend with metamagic rod. Use Pearl of Power to get a second one each day. 12 Hours of Foresight Should be enough.

Disjunction means no looting but in a pinch it's great.

Wish needs no explanation.

[Reel On, Love]

Okay, let's have a go at a pretty generic spell list. I'll go with a Diviner, getting one more spell than is listed per level. I'll ban Evocation. This is generic, so it's avoiding the broken stuff: no Polymorph/PAO, no Shapechange, no calling in efreeti for free wishes, no Celerity, no Shivering Touch, no Disjunction etc.

1st: 5+4: Ray of Enfeeblement x2, Silent Image, True Strike, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter x4

2nd: 5+3: Alter Self x2, Create Magic Tattoo (every other day), See Invisible, Glitterdust x2, Heroics x2, Rope Trick

3rd: 5+3: Unluck, Slow x2, Anticipate Teleportation, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Dragonskin x2

4th: 5+3: Assay Spell Resistance, Orb of Acid, Dimension Door, Flight of the Dragon x2, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Invisibility (scrolls, whee)

5th: 5+3-2 for SLA(Time Stop) twice: Quickened True Strike, Dragonsight, Greater Blink x2, Teleport x2

6th: 5+2: True Seeing, Flesh to Stone x2, Split Ray Enervation, Greater Dispel Magic, Chained Greater Magic Weapon (for buddies), Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability

7th: 5+2 - 1 for Arcane Reach: Greater Arcane Sight, Elemental Body, Waves of Exhaustion, Avasculate, Radiant Assault, Spell Turning

8th: 5+2: Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, Irresistible Dance x2, Prismatic Wall, Split Ray Empowered Enervation x2

9th: 5+2: Foresight x2, Imprisonment, Split Ray Avasculate, Maw of Chaos, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Chained Greater Dispel Magic


The wizard has a whole bunch of scrolls, a pair of lesser and greater rods of Extend Spell, a regular Extend rod and a regular Quicken rod, a lesser Chain rod, and other typical wizard gear (Ring of Freedom, etc).

Elemental Body(Air) combines nicely with Flight of the Dragon for 100' (perfect) flight and immunity to criticals, stunning, poison, and paralysis. He attacks mostly through debuffs and save-or-loses that can target either Fort or Will, plus no-save rays/ranged touches.
SLA(Time Stop) twice means 4 time stops/day, plenty of time to buff and the like--Mirror Image scrolls are cheap to make, for example. If the wizard shells out for a Rod of Maximize (since he's not getting a Greater Rod of Quicken Spell).
Cross-class UMD (or class with Loremaster) means long-term buffs get the benfit of a Bead of Karma, the Create Magic Tatto CL boost, an Orange Ioun Stone's CL boost, and possibly a Ring of Arcane Might's CL boost, all of which would put them at CL 27.

Between extended Heroics for Improved Initiative (if you take the feat, swap Heroics out for Mirror Image or something), the Insightful Divination feat (cast Foresight? Get +10 insight to Init and saves until you have to make a saving throw), Nerveskitter, a Warning Eager quarterstaff, and a decent DEX, winning initiative shouldn't be a problem.

Contingency gets cast via Greater Shadow Evocation, and generally contains Time Stop. Wizards can pick the trigger based on expected threats and paranoia level.

One could add in the cheesy spells by taking out some of the normal stuff.

[Just Alex]

If we're really cheesing this out, isn't Initiate of the 7 Fold Veil in there somewhere?

[Reel On, Love]

If we're really cheesing this out I have Incantatrix and persist Batman's Win. I was assuming something more reasonable, like Wizard/Loremaster/Archmage, because I wasn't really cheesing it out. Thus the lack of, oh, Celerity and Shapechange (ahh, Chronotyryn form: two full-round actions per round, good stats, etc. Or the core Choker with its extra standard action) and stuff.

[Kaelik]

For the sake of argument, let's say this is rescuing a princess from an unknown enemy, who has taken refuge in a vast dungeon complex which has been dimensionally locked. (Reasonable for a very high-level adventure). The wizard could ask his cleric buddy to cast Divination, or could cast Contact Other Plane himself (probably burning a scroll to do it), and then they'd know that the enemy was, say, a dragon, or a cult.

Actually in this situation, the Wizards best move is to scry the princess (ignoring for the moment that the Wizard himself is worth thousands of times the value of the Princess). From there he can teleport in just outside the Dimensional lock (Since such a lock can not really be permanently cast over anything close to large areas.) Of course he could come in Invisible and fly his way past most anything (due to speed (120ft when hustling) and invisibility.) To get to the Princess.

Of course that's assuming he neglects to use the Wish "transport travelers" option to just bring her to wherever he is.

[Aquillion]

Forcecage needs no explanation.

Wish needs no explanation.
Both of these spells actually aren't so hot. Forcecage has a 1500 gp material component and a size limit; you're better off using Reverse Gravity, which has a more versatile area and can affect more things at once, while still having no save or SR. Yeah, it has a lower duration, but if you can't kill things in 13+ rounds while they're floating ineffectually in the air, you have bigger problems.

If you must have forcecage, bring it on a scroll; it's not something you will want to throw around very often.

Wish is just... bad. There is virtually nothing worth spending 5,000 xp for, and those few things that are worth spending that much for are better obtained by using items anyway. If you absolutely need a wish, a candle of invocation is 8,400 gp, and no matter what the books say about 1 gp = 1 xp in principal, it simply doesn't work like that in practice. (This is ignoring candle of invocation cheese, of course, and just talking about using it to get one wish from the listed price.)

Limited wish is much better; at higher levels, 300 xp isn't that bad to save yourself in a pinch. But 5,000 xp? That's, what, nearly a fourth of the xp you need to gain a level around that point in the game? For fully a fourth of your adventuring time in the near future, your party is going to be a level higher than you, just because you cast one wish. Never worth it. Even if you think you need to do it to survive, some other spell will always work at less cost.


Contingency gets cast via Greater Shadow Evocation, and generally contains Time Stop. Wizards can pick the trigger based on expected threats and paranoia level.For the last time, you can't put Time Stop in a contingency. Contingency can only hold sixth level spells or lower:

The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).

[Reel On, Love]

Oh, right. Make that "Dimension Door 500 feet up", then.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1st: 5+4: Ray of Enfeeblement x2, Silent Image, True Strike, Benign Transposition, Nerveskitter x4

2nd: 5+3: Alter Self x2, Create Magic Tattoo (every other day), See Invisible, Glitterdust x2, Heroics x2, Rope Trick

3rd: 5+3: Unluck, Slow x2, Anticipate Teleportation, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Dragonskin x2

4th: 5+3: Assay Spell Resistance, Orb of Acid, Dimension Door, Flight of the Dragon x2, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Invisibility (scrolls, whee)

5th: 5+3-2 for SLA(Time Stop) twice: Quickened True Strike, Dragonsight, Greater Blink x2, Teleport x2

6th: 5+2: True Seeing, Flesh to Stone x2, Split Ray Enervation, Greater Dispel Magic, Chained Greater Magic Weapon (for buddies), Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability

7th: 5+2 - 1 for Arcane Reach: Greater Arcane Sight, Elemental Body, Waves of Exhaustion, Avasculate, Radiant Assault, Spell Turning

8th: 5+2: Moment of Prescience, Mind Blank, Irresistible Dance x2, Prismatic Wall, Split Ray Empowered Enervation x2

9th: 5+2: Foresight x2, Imprisonment, Split Ray Avasculate, Maw of Chaos, Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, Chained Greater Dispel Magic

The maximum penalty a ray of enfeeblement can inflict is -11 strength. Even if you splitray it, only the largest penalty applies. The largest penalty an empowered ray of enfeeblement can inflict is -16 strength. That said, you rely way too much on ranged touch attacks. A single deflect ray spell makes most your offencive spells useless. Finally, you have few offencive spells, mainly because you memorised way too many rays of enfeeblement. What happens if you want to teleport more than twice a day? What happens if you want to dispel more than twice, just in case you failed those dispel checks? And I don't see Timestop there at all...

[The_Snark]

Actually in this situation, the Wizards best move is to scry the princess (ignoring for the moment that the Wizard himself is worth thousands of times the value of the Princess). From there he can teleport in just outside the Dimensional lock (Since such a lock can not really be permanently cast over anything close to large areas.) Of course he could come in Invisible and fly his way past most anything (due to speed (120ft when hustling) and invisibility.) To get to the Princess.

Of course that's assuming he neglects to use the Wish "transport travelers" option to just bring her to wherever he is.

Invisibility will not get you past very many CR 20 challenges. Flying isn't going to do you a whole lot of good either; it's been available for 15 levels now, and any creature that's intended to be threatening has some way to deal with it.

And when I said a dimensionally locked complex, I meant the whole thing. DMs do not need to adhere precisely to the rules in these situations; Teleporting right past 90% of the challenges would not be a terribly exciting adventure, and it's the DM's job to make it exciting.

As an above poster pointed out, Wish is almost always a bad idea, but in this case it's even worse; you're paying a hefy experience cost to deprive yourself of more experience.

[Reel On, Love]

The maximum penalty a ray of enfeeblement can inflict is -11 strength. Even if you splitray it, only the largest penalty applies. The largest penalty an empowered ray of enfeeblement can inflict is -16 strength.

That said, you rely way too much on ranged touch attacks. A single deflect ray spell makes most your offencive spells useless. Finally, you have few offencive spells, mainly because you memorised way too many rays of enfeeblement. What happens if you want to teleport more than twice a day? What happens if you want to dispel more than twice, just in case you failed those dispel checks? And I don't see Timestop there at all...
And if I Spellcraft a Ray Deflection spell (doesn't last long enough for an out of combat buff) or see it with arcane sight or see a shimmer in the air I identifying (Spellcraft rules for identifying spell effects) or otherwise know it's up--a single, specific spell--I dispel it or let a party member dispel it, or start using, say, Flesh to Stone, Slow, Glitterdust, or moving in to deliver a touch attack spell normally (not exactly afraid of another caster's AoOs).

Time stop is taken twice as an SLA. That should eliminate two of my ninth-level slots (my bad) for 4 time stops/day. Lose the Sphere and Chained Greater Dispel. (Usually I take Time Stop SLA once, really.)

I only have a couple of dispels because the cleric can do it as well or better (more CL boosters), and he doesn't have as many powerful spells to throw into his 6th/7th level slots. Again, this is a generic list: in one of your games, I'd adapt to your DMing style--by 20th level, there's generally been plenty of time to do that, even if you don't start at 1--and prepare fewer ranged touch spells, more Dispels (if the divine casters weren't doing their bit), & etc.
Meanwhile, generically, ranged touch attacks are a great idea against most things... a Balor's got 22/19/19 saves, but a touch AC of 16. (+10 from levels, +5 or 6 from Dex post-items, that's already +15 or 16.) I do have plenty of non-rays, though.

I picked Ray of Enfeeblement because it's a potent debuff that works against most things. In conjunction with exhaustion (Ray/Waves of Exhaustion), that maximum -16 goes to -22, which turns a melee or archery threat into a non-threat, with no save, and encumbers them on top of that. It reduces many enemies to a barely-able-to-move state.
I suppose I should've tossed in Ray of Clumsiness, too; I forgot about that one.

If I encounter Ray Deflection repeatedly in a campaign (I never have), I'll obviously change tactics and use fewer ranged touch spells. I don't expect to see it too often.

Why would I need to teleport more than twice? I don't plan to let people get too close to me. If I do, that's what scrolls are for, and my wizards make a lot of them--there's plenty of no-save spells, and non-CL-dependent ones, too. Solid Fog makes for great scrolls.


Finally, I want to mention that Exemplars of Evil has the feat Uncanny Forethought (not an evil feat). Prereq 17 INT and Spell Master; INT bonus/day, a spellcaster can either cast a Spell Masteried spell from a left-empty slot, or spontaneously cast any spell he KNOWS by sacrificing a slot of that level (or higher) as a full-round action. The spell is at -2 CL, but who cares? So. Ridiculous.

Edit: someone else logged on, oops.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Invisibility will not get you past very many CR 20 challenges. Flying isn't going to do you a whole lot of good either; it's been available for 15 levels now, and any creature that's intended to be threatening has some way to deal with it.
That is, essentially, correct. See invisibility is available since lvl 3 and permancy scrolls since lvl 11. And most CR 20 enemies either have true seeing or blindsense/blindsight.


And when I said a dimensionally locked complex, I meant the whole thing. DMs do not need to adhere precisely to the rules in these situations; Teleporting right past 90% of the challenges would not be a terribly exciting adventure, and it's the DM's job to make it exciting.
Oh yes, they do. The rules of the game must apply equally to both the DM's NPCs and the PCs-otherwise they are not rules. Ofcourse, Unhallow is there and you can tie a Dimensional Anchor to it to apply over the entire area for ONE YEAR. No save, no SR to bypass it too. And if you twin the unhallow and apply Forbiddance instead, you block teleportation with forbiddance and apply both invisibility AND see invisibility to ALL BBEG minions via the twin Unhallow. That means they're continiously invisible and can see invisibility for ONE YEAR. Really cheap too.

[Reel On, Love]

Oh yes, they do. The rules of the game must apply equally to both the DM's NPCs and the PCs-otherwise they are not rules. Ofcourse, Unhallow is there and you can tie a Dimensional Anchor to it to apply over the entire area for ONE YEAR. No save, no SR to bypass it too. And if you twin the unhallow and apply Forbiddance instead, you block teleportation with forbiddance and apply both invisibility AND see invisibility to ALL BBEG minions via the twin Unhallow. That means they're continiously invisible and can see invisibility for ONE YEAR. Really cheap too.

Unhallow has a 40' radius. Tying Dimensional Anchor to it means that the total cost is 5000 gp.

5000 gp per 40'-radius-circle of lair isn't cheap (especially since you need to *blanket* it, which means overlapping circles). That's a lot of money to go through.
You can't apply Invisibility to Unhallow, either. Invisibility Purge, yes.

And after all that, someone can still teleport just outside your lair and passwall (or something) into it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

That is why you Planar Bind something with Unhallow as an SLA. No cost, unlimited uses. But you're right on the invisibility not being an availalble spell... :smallredface:

As for someone teleporting just outside my lair, unlikely. My lair is 1 mile underground, outward walls covered in sheets of lead and the unhallow (or forbiddance) blocks teleportation from those that don't share my faith and alignment. It was initially carved out by me going Ethereal, going deep in the earth, opening a Gate and carving out the lair with Disintegrates. I am the only one who has knowledge of its location and divinations can't reach it-by my teleportation can.

[Dhavaer]

Would Unhallow/Dimensional Anchor prevent you from teleporting in? The spell description looks as though it would prevent you from teleporting out.

[Reel On, Love]

That is why you Planar Bind something with Unhallow as an SLA. No cost, unlimited uses. But you're right on the invisibility not being an availalble spell... :smallredface:

Ahh, the joys of SLAs. That seems almost on par with binding an efreeti to grant one wishes, though.


As for someone teleporting just outside my lair, unlikely. My lair is 1 mile underground, outward walls covered in sheets of lead and the unhallow (or forbiddance) blocks teleportation from those that don't share my faith and alignment. It was initially carved out by me going Ethereal, going deep in the earth, opening a Gate and carving out the lair with Disintegrates. I am the only one who has knowledge of its location and divinations can't reach it-by my teleportation can.
Really? Every bad guy has a lair like that?
That aside, lead doesn't stop teleportation.
As for finding it, spells like Legend Lore, Commune with Other Plane (ask a deity! The deity doesn't care about your lead!), etc. can find it anyway.
It's also very unlikely that you're the only one who knows the location of your lair. (How about that outsider you planar-bound to pepper it with Unhallows? :tongue:) After all, you presumably have minions, servants, and friends. And if they have to remain in your gloomy underground lair for all time, they won't be so happy.
And if you can do that, another spellcaster can open a Gate to the ground beside your lair, send a Sphere of Ultimate Destruction, and carve a tunnel right to the wall of your lair, then (even the next day) port their buddies, break/shatter/disintegrate the wall down, and bust into the middle of your lair.
With a Planar Bound creature that has Greater Dispel as an SLA to dispel your unhallows.

That kind of thing is best avoided on both sides, really.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Naah. My sorceror got Wish SLA 2/day from an archmage level and took supernatural transformation for the SLA so I can cast an undispellable Wish 2/day with no XP costs. Each day he can Wish himself 50.000 gp richer. If he wants to cast any spell, he buys a scroll with the money-or candles of invocation. If he's too lazy to buy the scroll he can always Wish for the scroll but that's not very cost-effective.

Cheese aside, yes, there are ways to find such lairs. But a wizard will usually not be prepared to find them or break in-I don't see anyone mentioning more than a couple of teleports memorised per day. And so far I didn't even see ONE gate or disintegrate memorised.

[Reel On, Love]

Naah. My sorceror got Wish SLA 2/day from an archmage level and took supernatural transformation for the SLA so I can cast an undispellable Wish 2/day with no XP costs. Each day he can Wish himself 50.000 gp richer. If he wants to cast any spell, he buys a scroll with the money-or candles of invocation. If he's too lazy to buy the scroll he can always Wish for the scroll but that's not very cost-effective.

Cheese aside, yes, there are ways to find such lairs. But a wizard will usually not be prepared to find them or break in-I don't see anyone mentioning more than a couple of teleports memorised per day. And so far I didn't even see ONE gate or disintegrate memorised.

Component-free wishes and Candles of Invocation aren't really relevant to this discussion--or any discussion, beyond "what is stupidly broken in D&D.

We're talking about a wizard here, not a Sorcerer. Unless he needs to break into the lair *right this very day*, he will memorize the required spells tomorrow--that is, he can do it sooner and better than anyone else.

And if he *does* need to break into lair *right this very day*, he's more likely to have made scrolls of the required spells. Meanwhile, no one else just happens to have the exact spells for penetrating such a lair on hand, either, so they're just as out of luck if they *do* have to break in now.

And, oh, yeah--the wizard could even have left enough slots open to fill them with the proper spells (a divination or two--or pay someone else for them--Gate, Sphere of UD--he can go, and other people can follow, through the Gate), so he may well be able to do it within an hour or so of hearing that he needs to.

[Kioran]

Well for starters, I'd take Five levels of Archmage to turn 5th level spell slots into 9th level SLAs.

You kno you got this backwards, right? Quote from the SRD, bolded for emphasis:


Spell-Like Ability
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.

So it either costs a lvl 5 Spell slot on top of it all (likely), or you need at least a lvl 5 spell slot. Either way, you lose lvl 9 spell slots. You get a better return for casting time stops, but that´s about it.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

And, oh, yeah--the wizard could even have left enough slots open to fill them with the proper spells (a divination or two--or pay someone else for them--Gate, Sphere of UD--he can go, and other people can follow, through the Gate), so he may well be able to do it within an hour or so of hearing that he needs to.

Dead on. PPL tend to memorise long-time divinations and other noncombat spells instead of leaving slots open. That is a mistake. For any spell with a casting time of 5 minutes and higher, simply leave the spell slot open. Chances are, when you can stop for 5 minutes to cast it, you could just as well stop for 20 to both memorise and cast it. On the other hand, you can't memorise combat spells or escape spells when you really need them so memorise these first. And you don't need to memorise spells that last 24 hours or longer. Leave the spell slots open and, at the end of the day, memorise and cast them then rest. When you wake up, you'll have your buffs still running with 16 hours left (more than enough) AND you'll have regained your spell slots. If, for any reason, you are low on spell slots just before you rest, you could always memorise them when you get up anyway so you don't lose anything if you need to use those open slots beforehand.


As for needing a specific spell at a specific time, chances are that by level 20 either the sorceror with Shades/Greater Shadow Evocation or the cleric with Miracle will be able to find that spell more easily. A wizard should focus on general utility spells that need to be cast more than once per day instead.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Contingency gets cast via Greater Shadow Evocation, and generally contains Time Stop. Wizards can pick the trigger based on expected threats and paranoia level.

I'm not sure that the Greater Shadow Evocation spell would work that way in all campaigns?

I would think in some games it only partially works (70%) to store a spell effect so either it works 70% of the time or the standard Level 6 maximum at 70% would limit it to level 4 spells?

In campaigns where this wouldn't be the situation what are you normally using to power up the Contingency spell normally capped at level 6 to hold a level 9 spell? Meta Rod of Empower or Maximize or something else?

[CASTLEMIKE]

And when I said a dimensionally locked complex, I meant the whole thing. DMs do not need to adhere precisely to the rules in these situations; Teleporting right past 90% of the challenges would not be a terribly exciting adventure, and it's the DM's job to make it exciting.



I agree just straight core using Hallow as a level 5 spell with a 40' radius or an Enlarged Hallow with a 80' radius as a level 6 spell with Dimensional Anchor as the spell effects tied to it for 5,000 GP. A pittance at level 20 economics. There are plenty of other options in game like old mythals or unusual locales.

[Reel On, Love]

Contrary to what gets said sometimes, wizards don't memorize a bunch of divinations and cast them before entering each dungeon room. They might occasionally use something like Legend Lore, Contact Other Plane, etc; they might use (Greater) Prying Eyes.

Wizards memorizing too many of the same spell is pointless. Wizards are great because they can memorize a diverse array of spells with usefulness areas that overlap, together with spells that you'd only want to cast once or twice per day (and thus wouldn't take as a sorcerer--Flight of the Dragon or Overland Flight, Elemental Body, Anticipate Teleport, Foresight, Dragonsight, Chain GMW, all that jazz).



I'm not sure that the Greater Shadow Evocation spell would work that way in all campaigns?

I would think in some games it only partially works (70%) to store a spell effect so either it works 70% of the time or the standard Level 6 maximum at 70% would limit it to level 4 spells?

In campaigns where this wouldn't be the situation what are you normally using to power up the Contingency spell normally capped at level 6 to hold a level 9 spell? Meta Rod of Empower or Maximize or something else?

Greater Shadow Evocation works *exactly* that way. The target of Contingency is you; you voluntarily fail the Will save (as you can with any spell) and the question of "what happens with a partially real contingency?" never comes up.

The Time Stop was a mistake; store Dimension Door instead.

[Quietus]

Contrary to what gets said sometimes, wizards don't memorize a bunch of divinations and cast them before entering each dungeon room. They might occasionally use something like Legend Lore, Contact Other Plane, etc; they might use (Greater) Prying Eyes.

I have a Wizard/Cleric/True Necromancer, who makes frequent use of divinations. He tends to keep a couple Speak with Dead prepared each day (He's very much into the "Look, either you can answer my questions NOW, or I can kill you and you can answer AFTER" aspect), along with a single Greater Prying Eyes, and a couple of other divinations depending on what he expects. Usually around 5-6 divination spells memorized any given day. He also keeps two or three Teleports, two plane shifts (Campaign reasons, we do a lot of plane-hopping), a single Greater Teleport, and a Gate. He also keeps a True Res mem'ed at all times; ever since we hit Epic, he's been loving Ignore Material Components.

I can see how much more crazy he could be if he were to go whole-hog on divinations, but that just *wouldn't be fun*. Hell, even as it is now we're fighting Tiamat because the party is just too strong for anything else to be a challenge (we're ranging between levels 25-30, and only the Druid has Epic Spellcasting, but hasn't had time to research anything for it). The one thing that I'd like to do with Keldarin, once we beat Tiamat (Unfounded confidence FTW!), is pick up Epic Spellcasting and create Epic Prying Eyes. It just... suits him. Not that we'll still be playing after that, but it'd be nice to have.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Well for starters, I'd take Five levels of Archmage to turn 5th level spell slots into 9th level SLAs. And I'd never waste a High Arcana on Mastery of Elements.

Then I'd use 4th levels for Celerities. 9th SLAs of Time Stop. 5th for Teleporting. 6th for Divinations. A 9th on Foresight (Rod extended). 7th and 8th would be for killing people/and or buffs.

That gives me a good 4 encounters of Celerity/Time Stop/whatever easy, and the ability to end the day whenever I want. I have some leeway in the leftover 9th lvl slots.

I like the Archmage PRC and your post is a great way of utilizing a Batman wizard.

My only issue with it on a regular basis as a Player or a DM would be the single daily Foresight spell casting and routinely taking a time out just prior to it's expiration which appears to limit your PC and Party time and actions in game to about 6 hours in campaign during an adventure because many high level adventures are more time driven than low level adventures to provide the PCs a challenge.

Partial post edit and deletion regarding Contingency spell.

Most of the Batman wizard threads I read on the boards don't incorporate the Archmage PRC and most seem to be built around one shot Nova attacks where the PC caster never miscalculates the target and limiting daily encounters via escaping the adventure in a time out via a MMM, their own personal demiplane or planeshifting away somewhere time flows quite a bit faster to recharge spellcasting back to 100% normally without any encounters. For some reason the BBEGs in those campaigns never seem to adopt similar tactics which is why I consider it kind of cheesy.

[Rachel Lorelei]

I don't see Contingency listed in this build so an Empowered Contingency with a Foresight would give your PC those hours in game.
You can't empower Contingency, actually. There's no variable. Variables have dice; "x per y levels" is just a number determined by other numbers.


Most of the Batman wizard threads I read on the boards don't incorporate the Archmage PRC and most seem to be built around one shot Nova attacks where the PC caster never miscalculates the target and limiting daily encounters via escaping the adventure in a time out via a MMM, their own personal demiplane or planeshifting away somewhere time flows quite a bit faster to recharge spellcasting back to 100% normally without any encounters. For some reason the BBEGs in those campaigns never seem to adopt similar tactics which is why I consider it kind of cheesy.
Almost every wizard build includes a couple of Archmage levels, for basic stuff like Arcane Reach.
Nova-attack builds are created because of the desire for things to be "completely", "100%", etc. If you want to be guaranteed to kill an enemy, rather than just doing it successfully 95% of the time, you're going to have to go to great lengths. In a game, things don't work that way.

These are also not "Batman" wizards. The "Batman wizard" as I understand it is more along the lines of the spell selection Reel threw up--an adventurer with powerful spells to cover most circumstances and devastate enemies, keeping himself protected all the while.

I like the idea of Flight of the Dragon combined with Elemental Body, BTW. Nice.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Edit: Thanks my mistake.

The thing to do is research the level 9 Greater Contingency Spell to do the trick based on the mechanics of the level 6 spells holding up to level 6 spells.

[Rachel Lorelei]

You can't empower Contingency.

What are you basing that on?

Because contingency doesn't have "random variables". XdY is a random variable; one per three levels, not so much.

[Quietus]

My mistake. Just research the level 9 Greater Contingency Spell to do the trick based on the mechanics of the level 6 spells.

Because there isn't already enough 9th level spells that are required for your wizard's day?

Besides, this relies on the DM allowing you to research that spell. Poor form, I know that as a DM I wouldn't allow it. Contingent Time Stop on being the target of a harmful effect is a win button if I ever heard it.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Because there isn't already enough 9th level spells that are required for your wizard's day?

Besides, this relies on the DM allowing you to research that spell. Poor form, I know that as a DM I wouldn't allow it. Contingent Time Stop on being the target of a harmful effect is a win button if I ever heard it.

Contingency last for days even if you only get one so you could cast it before the adventure just like the current Contingency. The wording has to be right. Most of us are not as clever as we like to think we are particularly regarding telling the future and triggering conditions.

A level 9 Contingency spell would be a true Batman wizard spell allowing a PC wizard a few more optoins in game. Quite a few spells have Greater variants in game. I'm only suggesting basing it on existing mechanics.

[Rachel Lorelei]

The existent workaround would be Contingency(Celerity)-> Time Stop, so it's not necessary, strictly speaking.

[Jack_Simth]

You kno you got this backwards, right? Quote from the SRD, bolded for emphasis:



So it either costs a lvl 5 Spell slot on top of it all (likely), or you need at least a lvl 5 spell slot. Either way, you lose lvl 9 spell slots. You get a better return for casting time stops, but that´s about it.

You're both right - he's being a little lose with the language, but he's turning a 5th level spell slot and a 9th level spell slot into two uses of a 9th level spell as a spell-like ability. Hence he's turning 5th level spell slots into 9th level SLA's. It's something to do for high-level spells you expect to cast a lot, as an Archmage - that basically cuts the cost of the 9th level spells he uses a lot (Time Stop) in half (as, at that level, 5th level spell slots aren't generally going to matter overly much).

[AtomicKitKat]

Ray of Enfeeblement is a good example of why you shouldn't ignore your lower level slots. No Save, Ray Touch AC. The only defense is either mad Dex(which isn't always possible), or Spell Resistance(which sadly, isn't nearly as powerful as level adjustment would have you think). Or being immune to necromantic effects and such.

[Aquillion]

Naah. My sorceror got Wish SLA 2/day from an archmage level and took supernatural transformation for the SLA so I can cast an undispellable Wish 2/day with no XP costs. Each day he can Wish himself 50.000 gp richer. If he wants to cast any spell, he buys a scroll with the money-or candles of invocation. If he's too lazy to buy the scroll he can always Wish for the scroll but that's not very cost-effective.That doesn't work. They were clever enough to close that loophole in Archmage:
An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.
If you want free Wish cheese, go for Dweomerkeeper from the Complete Divine Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a), which has an ability that they can use to convert any prepared spell into a SLA x times per day, and helpfully says that it eliminates all components without noting that xp or costly material components still have to be payed. That has the advantage that you can cast all your other spells for free and undispellable, too, although only a few times a day.

The only disadvantage to Dweomerkeeper is that it has the requirement where you have to have "the ability to cast arcane and divine spells", which usually involves wasting a caster level... but since it doesn't specify levels, and since unlike say Mystic Theurge you don't actually have to have the classes (since it's not going to continue one of them), there are ways to finesse it.

[horseboy]

Which means that they fail a significant amount of missions, because there are a great deal of time-sensitive missions.

"Flash, Flash! I love you but we only have 24 hours to save the Earth!" FLASH! AHA! King of the impossible!

I hate cliches.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Contrary to what gets said sometimes, wizards don't memorize a bunch of divinations and cast them before entering each dungeon room. Mine do. In fact, in the cases that they DON'T, they usually have taken Spontaneous Divination (Complete Divine) and thus don't NEED to prepare those spells, since they have constant access to them. Since your argument is speaking in an absolute, and there is at least ONE counterexample, it's wrong. My Seer psion does the same thing, using a lot of divination(esque) abilities before entering a dungeon, often scouting out the entire place with Clairvoyant Sense before ever physically setting foot inside. This, of course, is very useful to that party's artificer and other buffers, who can give us the exact right infusions and buffs we need to plow the place over.

Heck, even at very low level, I make my familiar or psicrystal scout. And I keep open slots to take advantage of the fact that I can prepare later in the day. Even if you don't have any tools yourself to scout for some reason, you can just make the party rogue or whatever do it, since it's actually a team game.

If a party is NOT gathering any information, and rushing blindly in, as you seem to think they do (possibly from your own experience) then that's probably because they're not smart parties.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

edited out.

[CASTLEMIKE]

If you want free Wish cheese, go for Dweomerkeeper from the Complete Divine Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a), which has an ability that they can use to convert any prepared spell into a SLA x times per day, and helpfully says that it eliminates all components without noting that xp or costly material components still have to be payed. That has the advantage that you can cast all your other spells for free and undispellable, too, although only a few times a day.

The only disadvantage to Dweomerkeeper is that it has the requirement where you have to have "the ability to cast arcane and divine spells", which usually involves wasting a caster level... but since it doesn't specify levels, and since unlike say Mystic Theurge you don't actually have to have the classes (since it's not going to continue one of them), there are ways to finesse it.

The Dweomerkeeper is from FRCS Faiths and Pantheons. The PRC special is Mantle of Spells.


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20021018a

[John Campbell]

Both of these spells actually aren't so hot. Forcecage has a 1500 gp material component and a size limit; you're better off using Reverse Gravity, which has a more versatile area and can affect more things at once, while still having no save or SR. Yeah, it has a lower duration, but if you can't kill things in 13+ rounds while they're floating ineffectually in the air, you have bigger problems.
Um. Last time something threw a reverse gravity at me, it slowed me down for exactly one swift action and a 2nd level spell (swift fly), and that only because I didn't have 5th level spells yet, and thus didn't already have overland flight up. The paladin got out of it without even having flight (and he's since picked up a pair of winged boots), though he and his horse both took falling damage from it (but, y'know, I can think of better ways to do damage with a 7th level spell). And the glabrezu that threw it at us didn't survive long enough to do it again.

By the time you can cast reverse gravity at all, anything that's not capable of dealing with it isn't a threat anyway, because if it's got neither the flight to get out of it nor the ranged capability to be combat-effective while in it, you can just skip the whole reverse gravity thing, cast overland flight (which you'd probably already done anyway) and throw rocks at it from out of reach while it runs around ineffectually on the ground and eventually dies.

[Skjaldbakka]

That has the advantage that you can cast all your other spells for free and undispellable, too, although only a few times a day.

Last time I checked, Spell-like abilities were not undispellable.

[Aquillion]

Last time I checked, Spell-like abilities were not undispellable.Whoops. They can be dispelled while in effect, but not counterspelled with a dispel magic.

[Skjaldbakka]

Whoops. They can be dispelled while in effect, but not counterspelled with a dispel magic.

Really. Why not? That makes no sense.

[Nonah_Me]

I would suspect because one needs to make a spellcraft check in order to tell what kind of spell is about to be cast. As spell–like abilities have no verbal or somatic component (right?) there is nothing for a prospective wizard to decipher or predict.

However, the Improved Counterspell feat allows one to use a spell of equal level to counterspell. I would think that would allow someone to counterspell a spell like ability.

[Skjaldbakka]

But you don't have to identify a spell to try and dispel it with dispel magic. It just takes a caster level check.

[The_Snark]

That doesn't work. They were clever enough to close that loophole in Archmage:

Belial did note that the ability would be taken with Supernatural Transformation, which (if it applied) would remove the XP cost, since supernatural abilities don't have components and costs. However, Supernatural Transformation can only apply to innate spell-like abilities, so it's a moot point.

[Aquillion]

Really. Why not? That makes no sense.Because Dispel Magic says so:
Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.If you meant more generally "why does it say that", well... who knows?
EDIT: And, more generally, from the rules on counterspelling:
Spell-like abilities cannot be used to counterspell, nor can they be counterspelled. In all other ways, a spell-like ability functions just like a spell:
I wonder, though. If you have Dispel Magic as a spell-like ability, does the text of the spell that says it can be used "to counter another spellcaster’s spell" override the rules that usually prevent SLAs from being used to counterspell?

My gut feeling is that the intention is no...

This also means that a Dispel Magic SLA will let you get past the usual Ring of Counterspells intended to guard against dispelling. That is non-trivial, since a significant percentage of the dispels that target the PCs are probably going to come from a SLA and not an actual spell.

[the_tick_rules]

i guess being spell-like they are still magical in nature and can be countered by other magic, albeit it a bit differently it seems.