Balance outlier in curated classes

[JusticeZero]

Making a setting for a game, Pathfinder 1, Epic-6.
Based on the theme of the setting, I cut all the races and classes that didn't fit in the structure of the setting. I was left with a bunch of fighting classes—Barbarian, Rogue, Shifter, Fighter, etc...

All the list casters went away except for three. The first two, Bloodrager and Alchemist, don't worry me much; they have level 1 effects at level 6, reasonably tightly themed.

It also leaves me with the Witch, a T1 list caster. The setting basically demands them; the only magic humans have access to being either lycanthropic or from The Hags. Witches are very connectible to hags.

I'm not sure how I can deal with this freak outlier as far as balance is concerned.
Should I go full Ars Magica, making people make both a coven character/hag and an adventurer? (And maybe even a stable of grogs)
Should I cross my fingers and hope for the best?
Should I say that There Are Witches, but You Can't Play One?

[DracoDei]

Personally I like idea of the Ars Magicka-style solution the best, but you should be sure that you can handle that many PCs, and that your players are willing to handle two characters.

[sandmote]

Off the top of my head my response would be to reduce the one outlier. Give the witch only the spell progression of the Magus, maybe also slowing down either the number or scaling of Hexes?

Although I admit I'm less familiar with Pathfinder, so I'm not sure how doable this is.

[FaerieGodfather]

Trim their spell progression down to Magus. I don't think you need to nerf the Hexes, but giving them one Hex at 1st level-- to qualify for Extra Hex-- and then taking away their 2nd, 4th, and 6th level Hexes should be alright. Or give them a fixed selection of Hexes based on their Patron.

Alchemists are nonmagical, Witches are empowered by hags. Where do Bloodragers come from?

[JusticeZero]

Hag or Shifter blood. I don't strictly need them, I just saw that the class had both hag and lycanthropic versions.
Mostly, I want to make sure that there is something in the world that can create or use some of the necessary healing that might be needed, like Cure Disease or Dispel Magic. (Neutralize Poison is going to be a serious need, though I noticed that covens can Blight the spores away.) Somewhere they can drag back to after getting gassed with lots and lots of spores to have their status effects treated. Probably with conditions attached.

[DracoDei]

Spores from what? Is there a thread with this world explained?

[JusticeZero]

The area is being hit hard by plant monsters and fungal creatures.
Hags have power and the ability to use Blight, so they are revered and tolerated. They're still "wicked witch", but there's a symbiosis there. True lycanthropes are bound together, operating in bands and policing the random cursed ones.
Fungal creatures tend to do a lot of spore clouds of Con damage poison, and some plants use diseases.

[FaerieGodfather]

Hag or Shifter blood. I don't strictly need them, I just saw that the class had both hag and lycanthropic versions.

Consider adding Verdant. I'm not sure I understand your theme or your rationale, but you might also consider Eldritch Scion with the same bloodlines, Bard/Skald for neutralize poison, and Hunter for remove disease and neutralize poison. These would... appear to be compatible?


Mostly, I want to make sure that there is something in the world that can create or use some of the necessary healing that might be needed, like Cure Disease or Dispel Magic. (Neutralize Poison is going to be a serious need, though I noticed that covens can Blight the spores away.) Somewhere they can drag back to after getting gassed with lots and lots of spores to have their status effects treated. Probably with conditions attached.

I would nerf Witch down to 6-level casting, but give them the Adept spell list in addition to their own. (Removes the penalty to healing spells.) I don't think they need anything else.

[DeTess]

How much does it matter for E6? In my experience, the martial/caster disparity is still pretty tame at that point. I'd try it out without many changes as of yet, but I would tell any player wanting to play a witch that you have some balance concerns, and that you will implement changes if things end up being out of balance.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

How much does it matter for E6? In my experience, the martial/caster disparity is still pretty tame at that point.

That would be my thought as well. the whole 3.x family has a pretty strong "linear fighters, quadratic wizards" thing going on. That is in fact one of the reasons E6 is popular in the first place, because it sits at a relatively balanced point in the progression. Tier lists are usually biased towards the higher levels, giving examples like "the wizard can gate in a solar to cast wish, which has an 'I win the battle' function". Tiers tend to mean less if you're not anywhere near the levels at which that kind of stuff shines. At 6th level full casters get stuff like fireball, but not something like polymorph (or maybe they eventually get limited use of it through a bunch of feats if you let them.) Druids may still be some form of OP bull****, they shine at the mid levels, but most other casters are pretty okay. On top of this the post-level 6 progression into feats is pretty good for martial characters as well.

The only real reason I see for banning witches is that it might be weird to have only one full caster class. If that's not what has you worried, I'd say just let your players have a go at it.

[DracoDei]

I had forgotten about that.

I wouldn't really know either way, but yes, it is perfectly possible that no adjustment is needed.