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ForeverFate
2020-05-26, 10:57 PM
So my main character died. He got flattened by a dragon. Was a paladin. Now I'm tasked to make a new character and I feel I have something pretty fun. I'm just not sure how technically sound it is.

The character will be level 13. So here's what I have so far.

3 Changeling rogue
4 Chameleon
6 Arcane Trickster

At level 3 Changeling Rogue gets Sneak Attack +2d6 which is a requirement for Arcane Trickster. Here’s more info on that.


To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment
Any nonlawful.
Skills
Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks.
Spells
Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher.
Special
Sneak attack +2d6.

The Chameleon at level 4 would cover the level 3 arcane spell requirement and the requirement for Mage hand.

Then, when I get Arcane Trickster:

"When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day."

so that would add 6 spell levels to the 4 I have already with Chameleon, giving me 10 total. At level 10, Chameleons can cast a level 6 spell. So, my character could use the spell consume likeness from the necromancy spell school to consume my dead PC and take his form.

The caster can take on the appearance and form—including clothing and equipment—of a corporeal humanoid that is freshly dead. The caster assumes the form of the creature as it looked when it lived. The caster must eat the flesh of the corpse whose form is to be assumed as he casts the spell.
Once the spell is complete, the caster can assume the new likeness at will. By changing to this new form, the caster's body can undergo a limited physical transmutation, including adding or subtracting one or two limbs, and his weight can be changed up to one-half. If the form selected has wings, the caster can fly at a speed of 30 feet with poor maneuverability. If the form has gills, he can breathe underwater. The caster cannot assume the likeness of something that is a different size than he is.
The caster's attack bonuses, natural armor bonus, and saves do not change. The spell does not confer special abilities, attack forms, defenses, ability scores, or mannerisms of the chosen form. If the caster takes damage or dies, he automatically reverts to his normal form.
The caster can also take a standard action to voluntarily assume his normal form. If the caster uses this spell to create a disguise, he gets a +10 bonus on his Disguise check.
Focus: A fresh or preserved (still bloody) 1-ounce portion of another creature's flesh.

They’d also need to find a way to get to him as again he is under a massive dragon. I think I can cover the retrieval of my dead PC via magic though, just haven't got there yet.
I think this would be a useful spell beyond my initial intended use as well. Also it adds a sort of spooky element to the character, it's parent is a doppelgänger after all, so eating someone to gain their form, I think can be fitting.

My new character is on a mission from the cabinet of faces, their mission is to cause chaos in Dampier, and that's where my party has been progressing through our campaign. My character could pretend to be my dead PC, having studied the groups mannerisms while spying on them beforehand.

This could be a good “in” for my character to join up with the party and perhaps even reap in on some of the rewards at an upcoming end-session ceremony, as an additional bonus. "Hey guys! I survived!" "OH GREAT! Now reap in the rewards pal!" lol maybe that's me being greedy but I think it makes sense if I am pulling off this trick, that I wouldn't just sit out on the end campaign rewards. Especially as my character was known for his greediness.

Also, My character is built to avoid combat. They simply don't like it. They would rather use their changeling powers to avoid combat altogether or get in a heavy hitting sneak attack. Arcane Trickster gets this: "Sneak Attack
This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack."

so at level 6 Arcane Trickster and level 3 Changeling Rogue given the stacking I would have +2d6 from Changeling Rogue and +3d6 from Arcane Trickster stacking together to +5d6 sneak attack all together, which seems like it could be pretty effective. On top of that at level 3 the chameleon gains this ability:

Mimic Class Feature: At 3rd level, you gain the ability to mimic a certain class feature possessed by other characters. Once per day, you can use any of the class features described below. At 6th level, you can use this ability twice per day (either to mimic the same class feature on two different occasions or two different class features at separate times). At 9th level, you can use this ability three times per day.

I don't know if I would factor this into all the sneak attack stacking, but seems like it would be nice if I could.

Anyway, that's where I'm at for now. Oh, I am also able to take two flaws so I'm going with one where I'm allergic to getting struck by metal and one where I take a -2 on melee roles (non combative) so I can gain 2 bonus feats, for more wiggle room. I know this was a lot to read, I appreciate those who read it and hope I can get some clarity on if this can all work or not, or if I'm missing critical elements.

Falontani
2020-05-26, 11:04 PM
Idea is great; except one downfall:


You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or ocher option. You can use your bonus feat co qualify for such options, bur if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

So you'll need to get third level spellcasting elsewhere.

ForeverFate
2020-05-26, 11:12 PM
Ah! Of course there was something. Any suggestions on how to get over this? Maybe via a feat or something?

Falontani
2020-05-27, 12:02 AM
Since Arcane Trickster requires 3rd level arcane spellcasting it is rather difficult. Arcane Trickster can still progress Chameleon, but you would need third level spellcasting otherwise.

So my question unfortunately may rock the boat; but why exactly do you want to use Arcane Trickster? Is it the theme of an arcane spellcaster with sneak attack? The skilled mage? Or something else entirely such as the ranged ledgerman?

ForeverFate
2020-05-27, 12:54 AM
Since Arcane Trickster requires 3rd level arcane spellcasting it is rather difficult. Arcane Trickster can still progress Chameleon, but you would need third level spellcasting otherwise.

So my question unfortunately may rock the boat; but why exactly do you want to use Arcane Trickster? Is it the theme of an arcane spellcaster with sneak attack? The skilled mage? Or something else entirely such as the ranged ledgerman?

To be able to get Consume Likeness, Arcane Trickster levels add on new Chameleon levels and at level 10 (4+6 Arcane Trickster) I can get access to 1 level 6 spell in any arcane spell book. So that would be consume likeness, so I can eat my old PC and be able to transform into him. Also, there is a big end of game ceremony where loot will be given out and it would be nice to have, and it would be in character for my old PC because he was greedy. My new character is on a mission for the Cabinet of Faces, to send Dampier into chaos, the same area the party is in. I think being able to infiltrate the group as my old character would be fun, on top of getting in on the loot, I think it's a good way to get closer to all the action, I can create more chaos from within, in disguise. Being able to turn into a paladin, my old PC, on command is really awesome, I think, and it's utility goes beyond this initial trickery/scheme. Consume Likeness just seems pretty fun. I'm not sure for how long, or even if I can fool the group, but even if I don't, the ability is still useful and the old PC disgust is still accessible, which is neat.

TalonOfAnathrax
2020-05-27, 06:22 AM
How can you enter Chameleon that early? It has a skill point prerequisite (8 ranks in Bluff) that effectively locks out low-level use. Or did I misunderstand the order in which you intend to take your PrCs?

ForeverFate
2020-05-27, 05:40 PM
How can you enter Chameleon that early? It has a skill point prerequisite (8 ranks in Bluff) that effectively locks out low-level use. Or did I misunderstand the order in which you intend to take your PrCs?

Well Changeling Rogue has this: Skill Points:10 + Int modifier (4x the number at first level) so 10 + 2 = 12 times 4 = 48 points. Would that not be enough to meet the requirement? (I'm not great with understanding how points work so I very well could be wrong here.)

Buddy76
2020-05-27, 07:29 PM
The maximum rank you can have in a class skill is your character level +3. So 8 ranks in bluff would require a 5th level character, minimum.

Gorthawar
2020-05-28, 01:43 AM
You could use unseen seer instead of arcane trickster and start as Rogue4/Wizard1/Chameleon 4/Unseen Seer 4 but it would only get you 5th level spells to start with. Rogue1/Wizard4/Unseen Seer1/Arcane Trickster 7 would get you the level 6 spells and 5d6 sneak attack but you'd lose the flexibility of the Chameleon.
I'd probably just use a potion or scroll of consume likeness to pick up the look of you old character and start out as rogue3/x2/Chameleon8. The spell is permanent so you only have to use it once anyways and with double aptitude you'll be pretty good at faking a paladin for a bit. Especially if x is a full bab class.

MR_Anderson
2020-06-03, 12:38 PM
I would recommend a different route into Arcane Trickster, even though it isn’t the most efficient, but then again Arcane Trickster is not about efficiency.

Wizards and Arcane Tricksters both have D4 for hit points, making the filling in as a fighter hard to do, let alone a Paladin with abilities and heavy armor and shields.

I went

1 - Rogue
2 - Wizard (Mage Hand)
3 - Fighter
4 - Fighter
5 - Rogue
6-10 Assassin (Level 3 Arcane Spells)
11 - Arcane Trickster (Increase Wizard)

You can change the different intro levels for more wizard. I needed the extra Bonus Fighter Feat otherwise I would have taken another level in Rogue and been human for another 1D6 of Sneak Attack.

This way I have Spontaneous Casting and Prepared Spell Casting based upon my Intelligence Ability.

I am not going more than 5 levels in Arcane Trickster, and maybe only 3. I am looking at Divine Seeker, Exemplar, Spellthief (With Master Spellthief Feat), or Spellwarp Sniper.

You could even dip into Knight of the Weave at 11 before jumping into Arcane Trickster. It would give a Paladin’ish class to you with healing at level 1. Thing to note is that it conflicts with Assassin for alignment. I’m playing a character that was evil and an assassin that had alignment changed to a good alignment and thus can no longer progress in Assassin, but still can use what the character learned.

Main purpose of the character was Slieght of Hand, and why those other classes are possible paths, but you could possibly look at Mindbender, Masterspy, or the other ones you mentioned.

I know people say you should never short your caster level, but not every character needs to cast max level spells, sometimes it is about the role play and doubling up on levels 1-3 with high intelligence bonus sure allows flexibility in role playing a non combat character.

Fouredged Sword
2020-06-04, 06:03 AM
If I remember right the traditional way to increase chameleon casting beyond the class itself is to take levels in one of the various "advance features of another class" classes. There are, if I remember right, 2 of them. One of them is legacy champion. The other I don't remember. Legacy champion advances a class 7 levels out of 10, meaning you can theoretically get to chameleon 15 or something by level 20.

The cheesiest option for 3rd level casting is likely ur-priest with alternate spell source. You take magical training to give you baseline arcane casting and so when you take ur-priest you can cast your ur-priest spells as arcane spells.

ShurikVch
2020-06-04, 07:32 AM
On one hand - Consume Likeness is neither Aracane, nor Divine - thus, it's questionable if Chameleon would get it at all

On the other hand - why you're even need it? You're a Changeling - pretending to be somebody else is their main shtick...

Nifft
2020-06-04, 10:13 AM
Just for simplicity's sake, how do you feel about


Changeling Rogue 5 / Chameleon 8

You can't get the level 6 spell slot you want either way, since you can't enter Chameleon until character level 6. However, as mentioned in the posts above you don't need it -- you're a Changeling, you can take any form you want all day every day.

With only +3d6 sneak attack you're not quite an attack-centered Rogue, but in trade for that you're competent as both an arcane and divine caster.

After Chameleon 10, consider taking levels in Warshaper or Trapsmith.