A better belt of dwarvenkind?

[aglondier]

I am taking some item creation feats for my dwarf magus. I love the Belt of Dwarvenkind, but find its utility for an actual dwarf somewhat limited. What cost would you set the mark 2 belt at, and what calculations? (I'll need to justify it to my GM). Thanks

Belt of Dwarvenkind
Aura strong divination; CL 12th; Slot belt; Price 14,900 gp; Weight 1 lb.
This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as
they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes
and halflings, and a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. The wearer
can understand, speak, and read Dwarven. If the wearer is not a dwarf, he gains 60-foot darkvision, dwarven
stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison,
spells, and spell-like effects.
Craft Wondrous Item, tongues; Special creator must be a dwarf; Cost 7,450 gp

Belt of Dwarvenkind mk2
Aura strong divination; CL 12th; Slot belt; Price ? gp; Weight 1 lb.
This belt gives the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as
they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes
and halflings, and a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. The wearer
can understand, speak, and read Dwarven.
If the wearer is a dwarf, he adds 60-feet to his darkvision range, a +2 bonus to their stonecunning, a +2
enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, and spell-like effects.
If the wearer is not a dwarf, he gains 60-foot darkvision, dwarven stonecunning, a +2 enhancement bonus
to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, and spell-like effects.
Craft Wondrous Item, tongues; Special creator must be a dwarf; Cost ? gp

[aglondier]

I have a few other ideas up my sleve...

Mote Lantern
A small bronze lantern that glows with a dim shadowy light. Once per round it releases a tiny mote that orbits around the lantern, moving automatically to intercept attacks, reducing each attack by 1d3 points. A maximum of 10 motes can accumulate once activated.
Spell effect, continuous CL1 x spell level 0 x 2000 x 2 for duration
no space limitation cost x2
Craft Wondrous Item, Guardian Mote, CL 1, slotless, craft price 2,000 gp

Pauldron of Healing
This single shoulder armour piece is engraved with images of angels, and takes up the entire shoulder magic item slot. While worn it grants Fast Healing 1.
Spell effect, continuous CL1 x spell level 1 x 2000 x 4 for duration
Craft Magical Arms and Armour, Celestial Healing, CL 1, slot shoulders, craft price 4,000 gp

Dwarven Mining Helm
This rugged helm is designed for the rigors of underground work, and has a small 'sconce' on the front bearing a clear crystal. In addition to being a boon to miners, the crystal emits a field, invisible to the normal eye, that enhances lowlight vision, and allows darksight to perceive colour.
Profession (mining) bonus +5 5 x 5 x 100
Spell effect, continuous CL1 x spell level 1 x 2000 x 1.5 for duration
Craft Magical Arms and Armour, Hidden Illumination, CL 1, slot head, craft price 2,750 gp

Not sure about adding armour, attribute or save bonuses to the pauldrom or helm. Thoughts?

[upho]

I believe this belongs in Homebrew Design (https://forums.giantitp.com/forumdisplay.php?15-Homebrew-Design). You can request to get the thread moved by an admin (click the triangle beneath your avatar in your OP to "report post").

But anyways, I'd strongly recommend you don't base your "Belt of Dwarvenkind mk2" on the original Belt of Dwarvenkind, since you're looking to make a belt great specifically for dwarves while the original belt is very much designed for non-dwarves. (Hence why the original grants benefits which are the same or similar to those of some standard dwarven racial traits, like stonecunning). In other words, I think there's very little point to have an item which grants multiple benefits exclusively for non-dwarves AND multiple benefits exclusively for dwarves, but very little to both categories of potential wearers.

Instead, I suggest you remove everything from the original which is redundant/useless for a dwarf, add your suggested "extra-dwarf-y"-benefits, and try to find a suitable price for this quite different belt. So you'd end up with a belt which grants the following benefits, each with an individual market price or my estimate thereof (plus my reasons for said pricing, including any existing reference item or other option) noted in red:

+4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, and a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. 0 gp. Typically this is a clear net negative for non-dwarves, but rarely for dwarf PCs.
+2 enhancement bonus to Constitution 4000 gp. As a +2 belt of mighty constitution.
+2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, and spell-like effects approx. 3500 gp. A +2 cloak of resistance is 4.000 gp but applies to all saves, notably also vs (Su) abilities.
+2 bonus to existing dwarven stonecunning approx. 50 gp. The stacking bonus type and limitations are equivalent to that of masterwork tools (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipmenT/goods-and-services/tools-kits/#Tool_Masterwork).
120 ft. darkvision replacing existing 60 ft. range (this should have no effect without at least 60 ft. darkvision) approx. 6.000 gp. As this is the benefit of the Deepsight (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/deepsight/) feat, the price for this should reasonably be less than say the prereq-bypassing ring of heroes (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-heroes/), but not significantly considering for example the +1 cost of the training weapon ability.

Going by the above and the general pricing guidelines in the rules, this belt's total market price would be approx. 17.325 gp (6.000 + 1.5 x [4.000 + 3.500 + 50]). But then I'd also consider that the original belt is "only" 14,900 gp and nevertheless grants abilities which according to the guidelines should be priced well above 18.000 gp (darkvision alone is otherwise 12.000 gp even when using the preferred eye slot), the fact that this belt should be cheaper according to the same guidelines (notably, this grants the equivalent of a feat without bypassing prereqs rather than the more expensive darkvision), and perhaps also that the original belt still isn't worth the price in most games (most PCs are better off boosting their saves, ability scores and senses in other ways).

So I believe the most sound conclusion is simply ditching the +50% price increases for stacking different effects as well as any increases for using "improper" slots, just as the original belt appears to have done. Polished, the end result would then be something like:


Belt of the Dwarfiest Dwarf in all of Dwarvenkind
Aura strong divination; CL 12th; Slot belt; Price 13.500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
This belt only grants its magic benefits to a humanoid with the dwarf subtype (other creatures can only use the belt as a mundane normal belt).

First, the belt grants the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, and a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, but he also incurs a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. Second, the wearer either gains the dwarven stonecunning racial trait if he did not previously possess it, or increases the bonus granted by the trait by an additional +2 if he did. Third, if the wearer has darkvision with a range of 60 feet as racial trait, the range increases to 120 feet. Finally, the wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, and spell-like effects.
Construction Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, tongues; Special creator must be a dwarf; Cost 6.750 gp

Personally though, I'd prefer a belt which also ditched the non-stacking resistance bonuses which needlessly limits the belts usefulness to rather few levels. (This is because while the standard cloak's resistance bonuses can easily be improved using the most straightforward of the existing rules/guidelines, the resistance bonuses granted by this belt certainly can't, in effect most likely making them worthless by about 11th level when +3 resistance bonuses are the typical minimum.) This would also reduce the market price to a nice 10.000 gp. And I believe most dwarf PCs should definitely be interested in buying/crafting/finding such a belt, as well as keeping (and upgrading) it all the way to 20th level, likely even in a more demanding/high-op game.

Speaking of, as a player and especially as a GM, I really recommend using the alternative magic item rules from Steelforge (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Steelforge_Items) (by Dreamscarred Press which has made tons of player options for PF, overall better balanced and designed than those by Paizo). Show them to your GM and suggest they reduce normal WBL by approximately 15% if they feel there's a need to compensate for the slightly cheaper stacking of basic bonuses. I'm pretty certain that your group won't mind cutting down the "Christmas Tree" to a reasonable size, and especially that you'll enjoy finally getting good use out of all those fun slotted magic items which nearly always had to be ditched to make room for the same old standard items and their dull but required "big six" static bonuses.

HTH!

[Kurald Galain]

I'd say that darkvision is substantially less useful than a +2 to all (or most) saves, and that existing items granting darkvision are massively overpriced. You need some pretty specific parties (not just builds) and opponents before regular light levels make an impact on gameplay.

[Kurald Galain]

Also:

Mote Lantern - for the sake of gameplay, please make it a flat 2 instead of 1d3. If I understand correctly, this gives DR 20 when all motes are active. That should be much more expensive than 2000.

Pauldron of Healing - realistically speaking, people are going to wear their cloak of protection normally, then use this to fully heal outside of combat. And fully healing outside of combat isn't exactly a big deal, so this could probably be cheaper (especially if it has a limitation against sharing one with the entire party).

Dwarven Mining Helm - I mean yeah, that appears correct according to the pricing guidelines, but effectively it gives you +5 to a skill you never use. So meh.

[upho]

I'd say that darkvision is substantially less useful than a +2 to all (or most) saves, and that existing items granting darkvision are massively overpriced. You need some pretty specific parties (not just builds) and opponents before regular light levels make an impact on gameplay.Oh, I certainly agree darkvision is pretty ridiculously overpriced, for sure. Especially when compared to many other racial traits which are otherwise treated as if having basically the same or greater mechanical value. I think the minimum 6,500 or so for scrolls to get CL 10 permanent darkvision could - maybe - start to become worthwhile somewhere about 10th in most games.

That said, an item having more than one bonus with a normally or potentially exponentially increasing cost is always going to be difficult to upgrade without additional explanations in the item description, and the less "standard" the bonus, the more difficult it becomes (or the more additional explanations are required). So in any game in which you can't be sure that upgrading is an option - and the formula for doing so is reasonable - items granting non-standard bonuses which are made redundant by standard bonuses have at best an unusually short life-span, and are more commonly just traps. For example, at which level would you suggest buying the original belt (14.9k) would be advantageous, and for how many levels thereafter would you expect it to remain so if you can't upgrade the resistance save bonuses?

Regardless, I also didn't want to suggest the GM of the OP's game should also radically lower the price of existing darkvision items, to ignore those existing items' price when trying to judge the price of this homebrew, or to ignore much of the item creation guidelines as written. Mostly 'cause while those suggestions may indeed make the OP's game better in the end, they all also require quite a bit more explaining by me, and compared to the GM simply getting good enough reasons to be able to say "yay" or "nay" on this homebrew belt, those suggestions would also require a lot more system mastery and work from the GM in question to actually implement.

[aglondier]

(snip)


Belt of the Dwarfiest Dwarf in all of Dwarvenkind
Aura strong divination; CL 12th; Slot belt; Price 13.500 gp; Weight 1 lb.
This belt only grants its magic benefits to a humanoid with the dwarf subtype (other creatures can only use the belt as a mundane normal belt).

First, the belt grants the wearer a +4 competence bonus on Charisma checks and Charisma-based skill checks as they relate to dealing with dwarves, and a +2 competence bonus on similar checks when dealing with gnomes and halflings, but he also incurs a –2 competence penalty on similar checks when dealing with anyone else. Second, the wearer either gains the dwarven stonecunning racial trait if he did not previously possess it, or increases the bonus granted by the trait by an additional +2 if he did. Third, if the wearer has darkvision with a range of 60 feet as racial trait, the range increases to 120 feet. Finally, the wearer gains a +2 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +2 resistance bonus on saves against poison, spells, and spell-like effects.
Construction Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, tongues; Special creator must be a dwarf; Cost 6.750 gp

(snip)

Speaking of, as a player and especially as a GM, I really recommend using the alternative magic item rules from Steelforge (https://libraryofmetzofitz.fandom.com/wiki/Steelforge_Items) (by Dreamscarred Press which has made tons of player options for PF, overall better balanced and designed than those by Paizo).

Thanks for your analysis and suggestion. And I will look into the Steelforge thing. Much appreciated.


Also:

Mote Lantern - for the sake of gameplay, please make it a flat 2 instead of 1d3. If I understand correctly, this gives DR 20 when all motes are active. That should be much more expensive than 2000.

Pauldron of Healing - realistically speaking, people are going to wear their cloak of protection normally, then use this to fully heal outside of combat. And fully healing outside of combat isn't exactly a big deal, so this could probably be cheaper (especially if it has a limitation against sharing one with the entire party).

Dwarven Mining Helm - I mean yeah, that appears correct according to the pricing guidelines, but effectively it gives you +5 to a skill you never use. So meh.

Only one mote can effect any particular attack, so no, more like DR 2 with a maximum of 20 points.
Adding save bonuses as a cloak of resistance would cover that weakness...
Quite probably, though we do spend a fair chunk of time underground.

Thanks for your thoughts.