Displacement + Mirror Image?

[Naihal]

If I cast Mirror Image, then Displacement on the next turn, do all my images gain 50 percent miss chance too? I would think they do, seeing as how it states in the spell description that all images duplicate your appearance, but I'd like to make sure.

[RTGoodman]

Well, you can't visually tell that someone is under the effects of the Displacement spell; it just grants you concealment because enemies are aiming a little to the side.

If you cast mirror image first, all of your images look like they're casting a spell, but other than that, there doesn't appear to be a real change. If your enemy attacks and hits a mirror image (since it just looks like you, rather than actually benefiting from spells you cast), then the image is destroyed; if they attack and and 'hit' you, then they have to get past the 50% miss chance also.

[Feralgeist]

throw in a blur as well, just for extra cheese on that slice of pizza

[CASTLEMIKE]

No.

Your PC cast Mirror Image first a level 2 spell. The images mimic your actions: Drinking a potion or casting a spell without the effects.

One of the spell's limitations is that if you are invisible the spell has no effect. Consider the level 6 Mislead spell for creating a single illusionary duplicate of yourself while invisible.

Your PC then casts Displacement a level 3 spell on his person while the images mimic his actions. None of the images gain the benefits of the level 3 spell which would effectively become an even higher level spell for what you are envisioning. Mass Displacement as a spell is probaly about level 5 or so since a Mass spell is about two levels higher than the base spell's level).

[martyboy74]

Can you give a rule citation on that? The way you phrased your answer, it looks like if you Polymorphed yourself into something, and then cast Mirror Image, your mirror images wouldn't look ploymorphed.

[UserClone]

Hmmm...what if you were displaced/blurred and THEN cast Mirror Image?

[CASTLEMIKE]

Hmmm...what if you were displaced/blurred and THEN cast Mirror Image?

No.

A Mass Blur Displacement spell effect would probably be at least a level 6 spell effect and should probably be a level 7 spell effect in game because it is doing so much mechanically.

A Mass Blur Displacement would be reducing action costs to the PCs allowing a single PC caster to buff all party members with two spell effects at once with a single spell in a single action at a point in game where PCs can usually acquire extra actions in game.

[UserClone]

What the hell are you talking about?
I was asking "If you are blurred or dispaced, and then cast mirror image, would not your images also be blurred/displaced?"
Displaced, probably not. But blur is purely a perceptual change in appearance, something mirror image would have to duplicate, otherwise, you'd be easy to spot among the fakes, wouldn't you? Now, maybe the attacks made against the images might not get the 20% chance, maybe they would. But you couldn't argue the fact that they'd be blurry.:smallcool:

[CASTLEMIKE]

What the hell are you talking about?
I was asking "If you are blurred or dispaced, and then cast mirror image, would not your images also be blurred/displaced?"
Displaced, probably not. But blur is purely a perceptual change in appearance, something mirror image would have to duplicate, otherwise, you'd be easy to spot among the fakes, wouldn't you? Now, maybe the attacks made against the images might not get the 20% chance, maybe they would. But you couldn't argue the fact that they'd be blurry.:smallcool:

I answered you No.

What you are asking is will a level 2 spell duplicate the magical effects of a much higher level spell effect in game like a Mass Blur Displacement spell affecting multiple targets? That is what you are doing in game if you give the mirror images the mechanical benefits of the two spells Blur and Displacement cast on the caster.

Sure it could give the illusionary appearance of the Blur but not the mechanical benefits to the image. I don't see how it could give the Displacement benefits.

The spell doesn't work if the PC is invisible so it shouldn't work with the level 6 Mislead spell.

Nothing in the Mirror Images spell text says anything about it duplicating other spell effect mechanical benefits which is what it would be doing adding on Blur or Displacement just that the images mimic the PC actions and it would be doing it to multiple targets (Basically a Mass spell effect).

[CASTLEMIKE]

Can you give a rule citation on that? The way you phrased your answer, it looks like if you Polymorphed yourself into something, and then cast Mirror Image, your mirror images wouldn't look ploymorphed.

This is the hyperlink to the spell and the text:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mirrorImage.htm

Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

[Raolin_Fenix]

In the case of a Blur, I think the images would mimic the blurred effect, so as to make them indistinguishable from the subject. But this blur effect wouldn't impose a 20% miss chance on someone attacking such an image. The images are walking paintings, and someone smeared them a little before the paint dried, but that won't stop anyone from hacking apart the paper.

[Feralgeist]

nowhere in the spell description does it say that displacement and blur make it not work. only invisibility. the reason being, that you can still see them!

and it is not imitating a 6th level spell, it is using a 6th to modify a 2nd.

[CASTLEMIKE]

nowhere in the spell description does it say that displacement and blur make it not work. only invisibility. the reason being, that you can still see them!

and it is not imitating a 6th level spell, it is using a 6th to modify a 2nd.

I never said Blur and Displacement would not work just that the Mirror Images would not gain the mechanical benefits.

I posted an example of what level spell effect would be needed to give all the images the Blur and Displacement spell effect to multiple targets IMO.

That is something a level 2 spelll like Mirror Images spells should not be able to do as it excedes the power of a level 2 spell.

I posted an example of a level 6 spell Mislead which can only duplicate one single level 4 spell effect Greater Invisibility normally along with a partial level 3 spell effect which produces a single Major Image effect of the caster.

The level 6 Mislead spell makes the caster INVISIBLE so Mirror Images would not work for the caster as per the spell text which I posted above.

[Kaelik]

I posted an example of what level spell effect would be needed to give all the images the Blur and Displacement spell effect to multiple targets

The problem with your reasoning is that a Mass version of a spell grants the ability to apply it to multiple real targets of your choosing. A mass displacement is infinitely better then a displacement on some images. Same for Blur.

As for Mislead, it actually combines a second level effect (Invisibility) a partial level one effect (Silent Image) and a partial level four effect (Dimension Door.) It is also a single spell so it uses only a single spell slot and take only a single standard action to use, unlike Displacement + Mirror Image.

[Citizen Joe]

Mirror image makes a bunch of illusionary copies of yourself, Displacement creates another while hiding you. So, barring some other means of selecting targets, an opponent would randomly pick a target. If he hits a mirror image, it disappears. If he picks 'you' there is a 50% chance that he actually hits the displaced image instead (which doesn't disappear).

I used to think fireball would clear out the images but I see now that doesn't work.

[Suzuro]

In my personal opinion, which isn't actually worth all that much, but I don't think it would work, because, simply, as CASTLEMIKE said, it would be granting abilites far beyond the ones they should. Heres an example:

Lets say you have three mirror images, that's already a 75 percent miss chance, now factor in an additional fifty percent miss chance, not only when they attack you but all the images. This would mean that the opponent has a 75 percent chance to hit the image, but even then it is only destroyed half the time. And, even if they DO manage to hit you, they STILL have a fifty percent chance not to hit you. Statistically speaking, it becomes much too powerful for such a low level spell. Now, again, this is simply my opinion, so don't too much stock and warrant in it, but that's just how I see it.

-Suzuro

[CASTLEMIKE]

The problem with your reasoning is that a Mass version of a spell grants the ability to apply it to multiple real targets of your choosing. A mass displacement is infinitely better then a displacement on some images. Same for Blur.

As for Mislead, it actually combines a second level effect (Invisibility) a partial level one effect (Silent Image) and a partial level four effect (Dimension Door.) It is also a single spell so it uses only a single spell slot and take only a single standard action to use, unlike Displacement + Mirror Image.

What level spell effect would you rate a Mass Blur Displacement spell effecting multiple targets? I estimated around level 7 for what it does in game mechanically.

Would you let a level 2 Mirror Image spell apply those mechanical effects from the Blur and Displacement spells to other targets (the Figments) created by the Mirror Image spell?

The Mislead hyperlink with the spell from the D20/SRD

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mislead.htm


Mislead
Illusion (Figment, Glamer)
Level: Brd 5, Luck 6, Sor/Wiz 6, Trickery 6
Components: S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target/Effect: You/one illusory double
Duration: 1 round/level (D) and concentration + 3 rounds; see text
Saving Throw: None or Will disbelief (if interacted with); see text
Spell Resistance: No

You become invisible (as greater invisibility, a glamer), and at the same time, an illusory double of you (as major image, a figment) appears. You are then free to go elsewhere while your double moves away. The double appears within range but thereafter moves as you direct it (which requires concentration beginning on the first round after the casting). You can make the figment appear superimposed perfectly over your own body so that observers don’t notice an image appearing and you turning invisible. You and the figment can then move in different directions. The double moves at your speed and can talk and gesture as if it were real, but it cannot attack or cast spells, though it can pretend to do so.

The illusory double lasts as long as you concentrate upon it, plus 3 additional rounds. After you cease concentration, the illusory double continues to carry out the same activity until the duration expires. The greater invisibility lasts for 1 round per level, regardless of concentration.

** No Dimension Door spell effect regarding Mislead.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Last I checked, Blink (except for the 20% concealment part), Displacement, and Mirror Image stacked without issue.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Last I checked, Blink (except for the 20% concealment part), Displacement, and Mirror Image stacked without issue.
Not discussing that. Does Mirror Image confer caster mechanical effects onto the Mirror Images when you cast Mirror Image?

I say No Mirror Image is only a level 2 Figment effect.

You cast Blur (Another level 2 Glamer) and Displacement (Another level 3 Glamer) on yourself as a caster.

Then you cast Mirror Image (Level 2 Figment).

Would you as a DM give the Mirror Images the benefits of your mechanical effects received from casting Blur and Displacement on yourself basically with a Mass effect since they now effect multiple targets (the Figments created by the spell)?

[Kaelik]

What level spell effect would you rate a Mass Blur Displacement spell effecting multiple targets? I estimated around level 7 for what it does in game mechanically.

I would rate a Mass Blur Displacement as a level 5-6 depending on the number of targets (5=level 5 spell, 1 per caster level=level 6 spell.) Of course I'd also rate a Mass Displacement as the same thing since concealment mischances don't stack.

However, that is if it were a single spell affecting (basically) the whole party.

But that isn't what we are talking about, what we are discussing is how well a level 3 spell and a level 2 spell protect a single person.


Would you let a level 2 Mirror Image spell apply those mechanical effects from the Blur and Displacement spells to other targets (the Figments) created by the Mirror Image spell?

Yes I would. Because all he is doing is protecting himself. If someone attacks an image then it doesn't really matter if they hit it (yes they could remove an image, but that isn't very critical.)

[CASTLEMIKE]

No reread the first post by Naihal:

If I cast Mirror Image, then Displacement on the next turn, do all my images gain 50 percent miss chance too? I would think they do, seeing as how it states in the spell description that all images duplicate your appearance, but I'd like to make sure.

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The OP is asking if "All HIS MIRROR IMAGES" each of the "Figments" of himself gain the mechanical buff benefits of Displacement since the caster is receiving them from buffing himself.

IMO No. There is nothing in the Mirror Images spell text that implies that would happen and you would be adding an individual level 3 spell effect to multiple targets now basically powering up the spell to a "Mass" type spell on top of creating all the Figments of the caster. The level 2 Mirror Images spell isn't that powerful.

Blur was added to the mix a few posts later.

[Kaelik]

The OP is asking if "All HIS MIRROR IMAGES" each of the "Figments" of himself gain the mechanical buff benefits of Displacement since the caster is receiving them from buffing himself.

I realize that.


IMO No.

In my opinion yes.


you would be adding an individual level 3 spell effect to multiple targets now basically powering up the spell to a "Mass" type spell

Please try to understand, this isn't very hard:

A mass version of a spell is many many times better then possessing the ability to apply benefits to figments!

[Hallavast]

Your images would not be granted the concealment effect of the blur spell. They might look "blurry", but if you hit the blurry bits of them they still die...

If it would make you feel better, I'd be willing to agree that having your images "blurry" would make them immune to sneak attacks. :smalltongue:

[CASTLEMIKE]

Please try to understand, this isn't very hard:

A mass version of a spell is many many times better then possessing the ability to apply benefits to figments!

Please stick to the OT and why you believe Each of the Multiple Mirror Image Figments receives the benefit of the Displacement spell.

The Displacement spell from the D20/SRD:

Displacement
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location.

Material Component
A small strip of leather twisted into a loop.

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The subject creature in this case the PC caster first casts Mirror Image on himself to make Figments of himself.

His question is now when I cast the Displacement spell on my PC and he receives the 50% miss chance as if he had total concealment:

Do the Figments also receive the 50% miss chance?

-----------------------------------------------
By RAW the Displacement spell is a Touch spell which affects the single creature touched.

By RAW none of the Figments were touched.

By RAW none of the Figments are a creature.

By RAW Figments plural not single creature.

By RAW do Figments receive Will saves? They are normally destroyed when they take damage.

Why do you think by RAW the level 2 Mirror Image spell would also grant each Figment the benefits of the level 3 Displacement spell 50% miss chance benefit to each Figment?

[Irreverent Fool]

Mirror image makes a bunch of illusionary copies of yourself, Displacement creates another while hiding you. So, barring some other means of selecting targets, an opponent would randomly pick a target. If he hits a mirror image, it disappears. If he picks 'you' there is a 50% chance that he actually hits the displaced image instead (which doesn't disappear).

I used to think fireball would clear out the images but I see now that doesn't work.

Wait, why wouldn't a fireball clear out a bunch of mirror images?

[Shishnarfne]

Wait, why wouldn't a fireball clear out a bunch of mirror images?

Because Mirror images react to area-effect abilities (e.g. fireball) just like you do. See Castlemike's previous post where he details the text for Mirror Image. The spell description deals with this exact situation.

[OneWinged4ngel]

I say No Mirror Image is only a level 2 Figment effect.

"It's only level 2" is not a sound supporting argument for your conclusion. Heck, Alter Self is only level 2. That doesn't mean that it doesn't actually outclass many higher level spells, giving you things like flight, substantial armor bonuses, and great special abilities (and even the ability to turn into outsiders and stuff as long as you are or become that type.)

The reality is that the text give us a SPECIFIC EXAMPLE of illusions affecting yourself transferring to your mirror selves, saying that when you cast Invisibility on yourself, all the mirror selves become invisible. Thus, it's not exactly a difficult implication to make that other illusions similarly affect the group.

Like I said, last I checked, they all stacked. The mirror selves can blink in and out as you do, get blurred as you do, light themselves on fire when you do, levitate when you do, or vanish when you do. They basically appear to be doing whatever you do. And to get affected by whatever things you do. Only the very specific action of making a targeted attack against them makes them vanish (area of effect attacks specifically don't work). Basically, Mirror Image is amazingly awesome, to say nothing of Greater Mirror Image (it's an IMMEDIATE ACTION! zomgwtfbbq)


Wait, why wouldn't a fireball clear out a bunch of mirror images?

Because the rules say so.

[Kantolin]

And true seeing beats 9th level illusions, and protection from evil beats a wide array of much, much higher level enchantment spells.

*Grumblecakes to both examples*

[Krasus]

First off: The original question is as follows: If I cast Mirror Image, then Displacement on the next turn, do all my images gain 50 percent miss chance too?
Allow me to repeat some information that has already been stated, before I continue.

Displacement
Illusion (Glamer)
Level: Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)

The subject of this spell appears to be about 2 feet away from its true location. The creature benefits from a 50% miss chance as if it had total concealment. However, unlike actual total concealment, displacement does not prevent enemies from targeting the creature normally. True seeing reveals its true location.

Material Component
A small strip of leather twisted into a loop.

Mirror Image
Illusion (Figment)
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal; see text
Target: You
Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Several illusory duplicates of you pop into being, making it difficult for enemies to know which target to attack. The figments stay near you and disappear when struck.

Mirror image creates 1d4 images plus one image per three caster levels (maximum eight images total). These figments separate from you and remain in a cluster, each within 5 feet of at least one other figment or you. You can move into and through a mirror image. When you and the mirror image separate, observers can’t use vision or hearing to tell which one is you and which the image. The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions, pretending to cast spells when you cast a spell, drink potions when you drink a potion, levitate when you levitate, and so on.

Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets. Generally, roll randomly to see whether the selected target is real or a figment. Any successful attack against an image destroys it. An image’s AC is 10 + your size modifier + your Dex modifier. Figments seem to react normally to area spells (such as looking like they’re burned or dead after being hit by a fireball).

While moving, you can merge with and split off from figments so that enemies who have learned which image is real are again confounded.

An attacker must be able to see the images to be fooled. If you are invisible or an attacker shuts his or her eyes, the spell has no effect. (Being unable to see carries the same penalties as being blinded.)

Alright, if you cast mirror image then displacement on yourself, your images do not get the 'mechanical' benifit of the spell, nor does the images the mirror image spell created change appearence, just you do.
Reasoning: the text of mirror image reads: "The figments may also move through each other. The figments mimic your actions....." The important part being they mimic your actions. Casting a spell is an action, and they would mimic the motion of casting the spell. It does not say they acquire its benifit, nor does it ever mention there actual appearence changing.

Additional: If you cast Displacement, followed by Mirror Image, anyone attacking the images would not be affected by the 50% miss chance. If they targeted you, they would be subject to the miss chance.
Reasoning: I can't make a rule call on this, since neither spell description is precise enough, I would make the call as DM. The logic behind the call is that displacement changes people's perception of you. It does not make you invisible and make you appear farther to the side then you really are. Mirror Image copies your appearence. If you are displaced and you cast mirror image, the images appear within 5 feet of you, the caster. It seems to me that anyone looking at all the images, would notice one image a little more to the side than the others. If they attacked the image, they had a 50% chance to hit the displaced perception of you then your actual location.

Anyting unclear or needs to be elaborated on?

[Kaelik]

It seems to me that anyone looking at all the images, would notice one image a little more to the side than the others.

So just to be clear, you as DM would, when encountering a situation where a Wizard casts multiple buffs, cause the higher level one to completely negate the lower one?

[Hasivel]

The thing about multiple spells stacked together being just as good as a spell of higher level than either is, that's exactly how it should be. The multiple spells take multiple turns to cast, and that's costly in the most valuable currency of DnD, in-combat actions. Casting the higher level spell frees up a critical standard action that can be used to do. . . well basically anything else. In a battle that lasts for perhaps 5 turns, spending two whole turns just on buffing is a costly proposition.