House Rules Version 1.2 Feedback

[dmhelp]

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[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Considering 199 of 726 monsters (27.4%) are immune to poison damage (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612317-Resistances-Immunities-and-Vulnerabilities-of-Monsters-in-MM-Volo-s-and-MToF), I don't think changing spells to poison damage is going to fix the green dragon sorcerer. Elemental Adept can't overcome immunity, after all.

I like the idea of certain invocations and feats being half-cost so they're 2-for-1, my group did that in 3.5 and it worked out great. I think gaining a half-price feat and a +1 to a stat (instead of a +2 stat or two +1's) should be an option as well.

I think TWF will remain subpar due to needing two magic weapons instead of one. Plus there are just so many things to do with your bonus action instead of making another attack.

[Dork_Forge]

Survey:
Taking the house rules into account, please rate the following subclasses on a scale from 1 (poor) to 5 (awesome):

Barbarian Path of the BerserkerMuch better, but personally I'd just remove the exhaustion, they're lmiited by rage anyway
Barbarian Path of the Totem Warrior I don't see anything for Totem?

Bard College of Lore Don't see any lore specific
Bard College of Valor Not a fan of giving fighting styles, they receive medium armor and shields, unlike Sword Bards

Cleric Life DomainDon't see any life buffs
Cleric Nature Domain Personally I think unnecessary, they already get a bunch of Druid spells, heavy armor and the potential to be Wis SAD
Cleric Trickery Domain Hex makes sense, I like it

Druid Circle of the Land Not bad but confused as to why
Druid Circle of the Moondon't see anyhting specifically moon and they don't need anything

Fighter Battle Master Don't see anything specifically BM
Fighter Champion I really like it but would allow getting both later on

Monk Way of the Four Elements Giving another pool for spells and leaving them with full normal ki is a bit odd and potentially a balance issue
Monk Way of the Open HandDon't see anything Open Hand

Ranger Beast Master Good improvement
Ranger Gloom Stalker Don't see anything
Ranger Hunter Don't see anything

Sorcerer Green Dragon Draconic Bloodline Would probably be better suited getting an ignore resistance/treat immunity as resistance ability for sorcery points
Sorcerer Red Dragon Draconic BloodlineWould probably be better suited getting an ignore resistance/treat immunity as resistance ability for sorcery points
Sorcerer Wild Magic A bit odd, maybe make it trade advantage for +10 to tie in with Tides of Chaos

Wizard School of Divination don't see anything
Wizard School of Transmutation Wizards don't need Wildshape

Thanks for your time!

Thoughts in red above, I also like the Warlock invocation change.

Other thoughts:
-Allowing single target spells to level is a nice idea but seems exploitable, especially Magic Missile

-Vampiric Touch now seems overtuned, damage AND healing as a bonus action?

-Allowing the armor feats to be picked up in twos can allow for AC creep despite no MCing

-Giving the Alt Rogue both Extra Attack AND Sneak attack seems like it would potentially outshine some martials in the damage department

[JNAProductions]

On School Of Transmutation, Dork_Forge may have missed they also get Beast Spells two tiers early.

[Dork_Forge]

On School Of Transmutation, Dork_Forge may have missed they also get Beast Spells two tiers early.

Oh damn I did, yeah that's a hard pass on that one. Wildshape is already a powerful feature to hand out, but giving the Wizard of all casters Wildshape and making them better at casting in it than a Druid? Way too far imo.

[Dork_Forge]

Thanks for the feedback. The idea of the survey was to compare the upgraded subclass (Berserker) to the optimum subclass (Totem). Although I didn't include hexblade or divine soul as optimums (although maybe hexblade isn't optimum with no multi-classing)....

My concern about just eliminating the exhaustion penalty at level 3 for Berserker is that there is no way I would consider playing a Totem in that setting (greatsword berserker from level 3 on without looking back). And if it is downgraded to a 1d4 attack with no exhaustion (another option people have suggested), then a Totem with PAM in my mind is clearly superior. So I feel like lessening the penalty early and removing it late is a compromise.

This is a matter of personally preference I guess, but I don't see a need for the penalty to begin with. It's a subclass feature that will only end up doing 3 points more damage on average than a TWF martial (not accounting for GWM, but accuracy reigns that in). The intention in the PHB (I believe so anyway) is that the Totem is a customisable option (with potential to be the best damage sponge) whilst Beserker is more straightforward and excels at damage. If you remove the penalty completely and just let it be a bonus action attack I don't think you'll see anything break or even see that character as OP. Remember, they won't even get that attack on the first turn because they have to rage on round 1, so really it's like maybe 2/3 additional attacks per combat.



It kind of seems like Swords was made how Valor should have been. I wanted to bring Valor up to Lore. Since despite Lore often being the number one subclass bards are a slightly less popular class. Additionally comparing Lore to Valor I think the biggest desirability is in the level 6 early magical secrets, which is why I added the fighting style at level 6.


They're similar but different, Valor is a melee capable support Bard where as Swords is converting the Bard into a melee combatant completely (Flourishes are entirely selfish vs combat inspiration still being a support feature). I'd really avoid throwing a Fighting Style on top personally, Extra Attack alone is a huge power buff to martials.


So if you consider a Four Elements a 1/3 caster and convert a 4 3 3 1 spell slot progression into ki you get 4*2 + 3*3 + 3*4 + 1*5 = 34 ki per long rest. All other subclasses that pick up spell casting get it without having to sacrifice their base powers. And comparing open hand, it isn't until their level 17 power that they tap into their ki pool. I could drop their elemental ki pool to just be equal instead of one and a half times if you think it is too powerful?

This is a difference in class design, Fighters and Rogues get new things (which sometimes come with their own resource pool) where as Monks instead get new ways to use their Ki (I think you were looking specifically for an ability that has a Ki cost, but Open Hand's main feature is tied to Flurry of Blows, so in reality the ability does have a Ki cost, just in a different way). The goal here seems to be to let 4e Monks use their spells more right? I'd play with the costs rather than with their Ki, knock one point off the spell costs or give them one free casting per day. They get more casting without ending up overpowered compared to other Monks.


I wasn't concerned about magic missile damage given the damage potential of martials with GWM. Magic weapons will be pretty common and people have +5 on stats vs the standard array.

The main concern with magic missile is that it's auto hit force damage.


I don't think anyone takes a mage and then wastes 2 feat on armor proficiencies. In a multi-classing game you'd just pick them up with a one level dip. In a non multi-classing game it just isn't worth the feat burn. I think this gives people some more options.
Personally I wouldn't, but that same strategy is a popular build on this forum.


There is no way I would play a standard rogue in a non multi-classing game. I'd go Rogue 1 -> extra attack 5 -> rogue. So this is my way of adding that back in without everything else that comes with multi-classing.

You'd have to do the math against the martials but I think it'd come out on top for the Rogue: Extra Attack is the primary damage bump for martials, otherwise they need to add their own damage. Paladins do this in a burst form with Smites, Rangers do it via Hunter's Mark. So at level 5 you're trading 1d6 sneak attack for potentially 1d8+mod, I've no doubt that it'd be interesting in play but it's also certainly a buff. It also makes Rogues more compatable with Sharpshooter (using hidden advantage to offset the accuracy instead of Archery style), they use SS on the first hit, if it hits great +10 damage, if they don't then they can attack normally with the second shot for Sneak (nevermind getting a third attack from Crossbow Expert).

On the variant Arcane Trickster: allowing full sneak damage on top of ranged spell attacks is interesting, feels like power creep (throwing a fistful of d6s on top of spell damage would most likely not only counteract being a third caster but go past that and make them one of the best blasters in the game). For example: Ice Knife at 3rd level now does 1d10+2d6 (12.5avg) piercing damage and an aoe for 2d6 (7) cold damage, you can take Magic Initiate to get that once a day for free (unlike most Magic Initiate damage picks, it will scale and stay relevant based on Sneak) or use your own slots and mix in upcasting. Scorching Ray: 3 chances to Sneak Attack instead of 1, potential damage if all rays hit (seeing as advantage from hiding will be mixed in not that unlikely): 10d6 Fire Damage, if only one ray hits? 6d6 fire damage...

I'm not really sure on the intent behind the Thief/Assassin change, are you allowing Str builds by making non Finesse one handed weapons?


I was trying to bring up Transmuters to Diviners level. My thought was that your wild shape still sucks compared to Moon Druid. I was limiting it to once instead of twice per short rest and giving Circle of the Land the cool Fire & Ice ability. What about if I got rid of Beast Spells for Transmuter? I could also remove the ability to do swimming or flying forms if needed? Transmuter was rated a -0.41 power and 0.2 fun in the referenced survey, so I think they need something.

The Moon Druid is a poor point of comparison, combat Wild Shape is their whole thing, a Transmuter transforming themself is one out of four abilties. If you want them to use Wildshape then change the level 10 feature from Polymorph, but I don't think it's necessary. I think the issue with Transmuter's comes from their 2nd level ability being a roleplay ability, so if you want to buff them then give them a minor combat benefit alongside it. Maybe borrow from Forge Cleric and allow them to harden material, making Armor or a Weapon +1, but not magical (they aren't enchanted, you've temporarily altered their chemical composition, it seems more like an Alchemist School anyway). If you want to keep the Wildshaping thing then not only ditch the Beast Spells but change it so it's more like being an Animgaus from the Harry Potter series, they can turn into a single creature of their choice that's a certain CR (but this wouldn't be a combat form, cats, rats etc.).

[Pex]

As variant human wizard or sorcerer I could easily take Light Armor and Medium Armor proficiency as my feat. I no longer need to cast Mage Armor and have a better AC. For Sorcerer that makes dropping Draconic Resilience for Elemental Spells an easier choice or taking any Sorcerer bloodline. The extra hit points of Draconic Resilience are nice but not crucial. This is not necessarily a bad thing. You have the house rules to encourage their use, and it is encouraging here.

[micahaphone]

I suggest you make only healing type potions a bonus action, and feeding another person a healing potion takes an action. I DM with that rule, it encourages healing before you hit 0, and it still allows me the DM to hand out cool funky potions as valuable loot that doesn't permanently increase someone's power. Potions of haste are plenty powerful even with an action to drink.


In universe I explain this by having healing potions be small test tube ish vials, a shot of potion, but most other potions are larger flasks, need a few chugs to drink.

[Dork_Forge]

I'll remove the barbarian exhaustion at level 6 instead of 10.

My problem with dropping ki costs is this: A full 1/3 caster progression costs 4*1 + 3*2 + 3*3 + 1*4 = 23 ki. So essentially you get a full set of spells every short rest. I'll give them 10 elemental ki, but still let them use ki for spells.

Magic missile still costs a spell slot for 17.5 damage. I'm not sure it is worth a slot for 10.5 damage when your cantrip is doing 22 damage.

Assuming +3 weapon and 20 stat without crits:
Fighter 20 PAM halberd 37.5 + 27 3/4 att + 3.5 GWF + 50 GWM = 118 (122 if champion)
Fighter champion 20 DW rapier 13.5 * 5 + 50 GWM = 117.5
Fighter champion 20 greatsword (10.5 GWF + 8) * 4 + 40 GWM = 114
Fighter 20 CE hand crossbow (3.5 + 3 + 5) x 5 + 50 SS = 107.5
Ranger hunter 17+ swift quiver CE heavy crossbow (5.5 + 3 + 5) x 4 + 40 SS + 4.5 collossal = 98.5
Fighter 11-19 PAM halberd 37.5 + 13.5 3rd attack + 3 GWF + 40 GWM = 94
Paladin vengeance 11+ PAM halberd 37.5 + 2 GWF + 30 GWM + 13.5 imp smite + 10.5 hunter's mark = 93.5
Ranger beastmaster 17+ swift quiver CE heavy crossbow (5.5 + 3 + 5) x3 + 30 SS + (3.5 + 8) x2 = 40.5 + 10 + 23 = 93.5
Barbarian berserker 20 great sword (7 + 3 + 7 + 4) x3 + 30 GWM = 93
Warlock 12+ pact of blade PAM halberd 37.5 + 30 GWM + 10.5 hex + 15 thirsting blade = 93
variant Rogue 19 DW rapier 37.5 + 21 sneak + 30 GWM = 88.5
Fighter 11-19 CE hand crossbow 11.5 x 4 + 40 SS = 86
Barbarian 20 PAM halberd 37.5 + 30 GWM + 6 strength + 12 rage = 85.5
variant Rogue 19 CE hand crossbow 34.5 + 30 SS + 21 sneak = 85.5
Ranger hunter 5+ PAM halberd 37.5 + 30 GWM + 10.5 hunter's mark + 4.5 collossal = 82.5
Ranger beastmaster 15+ hunter's mark PAM halberd (4 avg + 3 + 5 + 3.5)x2 + 20 GWM + 30 beast= 51 + 30 = 81
Ranger beastmaster 15+ hunter's mark CE hand crossbow (3.5 + 3 + 5 + 3.5)x2 +20 SS + (3.5 + 8 + 3.5)x2= 30 + 20 + 30 = 80
Rogue 19 DW rapier 25 + 35 sneak + 20 GWM = 80
variant Rogue arcane trickster 19+ MI hex eldritch blast 36 + 21 sneak = 57
Warlock 17+ eldritch blast agon bl hex (5.5+5+3.5)x4 = 56
Monk 17+ weapon 27 + flurry 21 = 48
Sorcerer wild magic 17+ MI hex eldritch blast 36 + 10 reckless weave = 46

One Round Typical Burst:
Fighter battlemaster 20 PAM halberd 118 + 97 action surge + 39 superiority = 254
Fighter 20 PAM halberd 118 + 97 action surge = 215 (223 if champion)
Fighter 20 great sword action surge 130.5 + 80 = 210.5 (228 if champion)
Fighter 20 CE hand crossbow 107.5 + 86 action surge = 193.5
Sorcerer wild magic 17+ MI hex 9th level scorching ray 10.5 * 11 rays + 10 reckless + quickened hex eldritch blast 36 + 10 reckless = 171.5
Fighter 11-19 PAM halberd 94 + 73 action surge = 167
Paladin vengeance 17+ PAM halberd 93.5 + 67.5 smite = 161
Sorcerer/Wizard (& Warlock fiend) 17+ (MI if non Warlock) hex 9th level scorching ray 10.5 * 11 rays + hex 8th level vamp touch 31.5 = 147
Fighter eldritch knight 19 MI hex level 4 scorching ray/action surge level 3 scorching ray 10.5 * 11 rays + 19.5 greatsword = 135
Cleric 17+ MI hex 9th level inflict wounds 75 + 8th level spiritual weapon 26.5 = 101.5
variant Rogue arcane trickster 19 MI hex level 4 scorching ray 10.5 * 6 + 21 sneak + 14 vamp touch = 98
Sorcerer wild magic 6 MI hex 3rd level scorching ray 10.5 * 4 rays + quickened hex eldritch blast 18 + 20 reckless = 80

The thief/assassin change was to give them a bone (liberalize the sneak attack weapon since arcane trickster gets the 3rd edition spell sneak attack) since they only have a 6d6 sneak attack. In a multiclass game you would still have an 8d6 sneak attack (although this isn't a multiclass game).

I was thinking Harry Potter with giving Transmuter's wild shape. I'll think on what you said.

On the 4e Monks, a core part of your assumption is the flawed comparison with 3rd casters, it's understandable why (they both get access to spells at 3rd level with a subclass) but 4e Monks aren't 3rd casters. Casting spells only accounts for roughly 2/3 of their disciplines and their spells break the mold of 3rd casters:

-They don't get cantrips
-They can cast 3rd level spells at 11th level whilst AT/EK don't get 3rd level slots until 13th level
-They can cast Cone of Cold, a 5th level spell at 19th level when 3rd casters are getting 4th level slots, their highest
-You reference a 3rd caster's slots converted to Ki being 34 Ki over a long rest, a level 20 Monk can expect 40 Ki per day if only one short rest and 60 in a more design expected day of two short rests.

That's a lot of comparisons though I'm confused at the nature of them, some thoughts from looking over it:

-Why are you comparing level 20? You're making house rules presumably to run a game, unless you're playing a high level game (which I don't think you've indicated you are), how relevant is the 20th level picture of things?
-You have a Rogue with GWM, even with your "liberalizing" of weapons for the Thief and Assassin, they still can't use GWM as it requires a Heavy Weapon
-You assume a +3 weapons, which at 20th level skews things towards anything that has more attacks but the casters have no magic item considerations
-The Variant Rogue is casting Eldritch Blast of all things, a terrible choice given that not only would it key off of Charisma, the character would lack the Agonizing Blast invocation that makes the cantrip so damage relevant at those levels.

To highlight the power creep in your Variant Rogue let's look at where it comes online (a narrower comparison than your own, but hopefully still relevant:

V. Rogue 5th level (Rapier): 2d8+2d6+8=24
V. Rogue 5th level (TWF): 5d6+8=25.5
Normal Rogue 5th level (TWF): 5d6+4=21.5
Fighter 5th level(S&B:Dueling): 2d8+12=21
Monk 5th level (Quarterstaff): 2d8+1d6+12=24.5

The Monk gets a bigger at will boost than other martials at 5th level as it gets Extra Attack at the same time it gets a Martial Arts die improvement (1d4>1d6) and even two handing a Quarterstaff it falls a full point behind a TWF Rogue on average. The normal Rogue and S&B Fighter are out done by a larger margin by a Rapier wielding V. Rogue (that still has their bonus available for Cunning action) and that gap widens slightly with TWF V. Rogue. Is this an issue by itself? Not really and it'd certainly be fun for the player involved, but there's other considerations in the scaling of this:

-It means the V. Rogue will not just do more damage through the virtue of more attacks, but that they will also be able to get Sneak Attack off more reliably
-Giving out those +x items will make this Rogue scale in damage differently than the intended design
-A 7th level V.Rogue Arcane Trickster using Shadow Blade can do: 4d8+2d6+8=33 per round (more if they TWF, then more so if that offhand weapon is magical), a vanilla AT would do 2d8+4d6+4=27

You might be good with the gap it creates in the more traditionally played levels, I'm just trying to make you aware that this is a form fo power creep on a class that isn't traditionally regarded as needing it.

Again, the Magic Missile point wasn't about raw damage numbers, it's about being auto hit Force damage. In Tier 4 a cantrip could very well out damage it, but you still have to hit the target to begin with and then possibly content with any resistances. It's just something to consider when making changes like this, like you call out Vampiric Touch, but wouldn't it not only increase the damage but also increase the amount of healing it does? You're effectively upcasting spells this applies to and given how many spells are in the game now, that could have unforeseen balance concerns.

[Yakk]

Monks are 1/2 casters baseline. They are short rest casters. Their "spells" are their monk abilities.

The 4e monk tacks on new stuff to spend their spells on, but it doesn't add new resources, and it stacks inefficiently with baseline monk abilities.

If you treat monks as 1/2 casters, and 4E as another 1/3 caster added on, you get a 5/6 caster. But it.is a short rest caster, so 1/3 resources, or 5/18 aka 27% of full caster spellpoints.

We can round down to a 2/3 caster; so a level 20 4E monk should have 1/3 of the spellpoints of a level 14 full caster, or 27, per short rest.

Now, rather than messing with Ki pool, we can just discount 4E abilities by 1 each. With 27 pts you get 5 3rd level spells; with 20 pts and discount you also get 5.

Hence, discount 4e spells by 1 point and leave class mostly untouched otherwise.