Hexblade vs Paladin

[kbob]

Curiosity question. Which do you think is overall better: Hexblade or Paladin? I realize one is a subclass and the other is not but any Paladin subclass would work I guess. If we need to look at a specific one then I would say devotion, only because it’s my favorite. I would personally argue that it may not be better than vengeance or ancients but it’s up there with them. Having charm spell/effect immunity and always “on” protection from good/evil is pretty nice. However, I’m concerned about how Paladins overall compare to the Hexblade. I see Hexblade being higher dpr and they’re full casters (sort of) but Paladins are very defensive and offer some very nice boosts to a party. Not to mention, of course, going nova on that evil, boss man. What say y’all? If a player came to a group you were in and they played one of those, which would you think would help out the party the most overall (assume you have some kind of mage, cleric and rogue)? Thanks!

[LudicSavant]

Curiosity question. Which do you think is overall better: Hexblade or Paladin? I realize one is a subclass and the other is not but any Paladin subclass would work I guess. If we need to look at a specific one then I would say devotion, only because it’s my favorite. I would personally argue that it may not be better than vengeance or ancients but it’s up there with them. Having charm spell/effect immunity and always “on” protection from good/evil is pretty nice. However, I’m concerned about how Paladins overall compare to the Hexblade. I see Hexblade being higher dpr and they’re full casters (sort of) but Paladins are very defensive and offer some very nice boosts to a party. Not to mention, of course, going nova on that evil, boss man. What say y’all? If a player came to a group you were in and they played one of those, which would you think would help out the party the most overall (assume you have some kind of mage, cleric and rogue)? Thanks!

Hmm. If it was "have a bunch of these in the party" and assuming you actually get short rests, then Hexblade is probably better just because spell slots and ranged combat are so good in 5e. If it's "you have just one, and everyone else in the party is something else" then Paladin has a good argument for being better (just because it's so valuable to add the aura to a party, but multiple Paladins don't stack).

[kbob]

Ya multiple hexblades would be dangerous but I was thinking just one of whichever. One player added to the current group of 3 (Wizard or sorcerer, cleric, rogue).

[DrKerosene]

A single Paladin is probably better support for a Party without having to consider building for the campaign theme or whatever.

A Paladin is probably better if you only occasionally have one combat in a day (narrative heavy game), where they can go nova on the boss or whatever.

A Hexblade is probably better if you know you’ll get to (ab)use Short Rests in a combat heavy game.

Since a Hexblade can still pick Chain or Tome (or Blade), I’d probably play a HexTome character over a Paladin if I had to pick in a vacuum (since I love me some Book Of Secrets and many Cantrips).

[Ogre Mage]

I would say hexblades are considerably more powerful in Tier 1 due to the fact that the class is very front loaded. Eldritch blast gives them a strong ranged attack that the paladin cannot match, giving them great offensive versatility.

But in Tier 2, the paladin starts to catch up. Their aura is a big reason. The number of spells they can cast increases while the hexblade is stuck at 2. Lay on hands gets better too. As the game goes on, I think the gap gets greater.

[kbob]

Ya I see your point about the tiers. I actually have a hex and paly. They are about the same level 9/8. The hex outshines the paly right now less the +5 saves to self and party members (which is no small thing). But as I wargame it in my head, it seems that the paly will close the damage gap (improved smite) and offer a lot of immunities and buffs that are invaluable and that the hex won’t be able to match. Then again casting 6th-9th Level spells (tho only 1 each level) is huge. I enjoy playing both tho I think I like the hex better but just because of the personality I gave him. But it got me thinking of which is better from a game perspective. As of now I lean towards hex better on front half and paly better on back but I’m not certain cuz I can see an argument for hex being better throughout. Tho as a player, I think if I was another player I would feel better about a paly joining tho I wouldn’t tell the hex to leave either. Ha Idk

[Tes]

"Better" might just be the wrong word or is conditional, depending on what you want to achieve most.

About any sort of optimal Paladin is going to be melee (with Javelin utility if you want to) and probably STR with a slight edge over Dex builds.

Hexblade is more flexible. Tome Rituals + Warlock Spells makes for a very respectable full caster with EB spam to keep the damage output up there. With Blade you can go melee with about every weapon you want or play an Eldritch Archer (something the RAW Paladin sucks at) with the ability to smite Dragons, Angels and Demons out of the sky.
All that while remaining something close to a full caster and before considering multiclassing.

If you know your party needs another tanky frontliner/controller Paladin is a clear winner with potentially higher AC, Lay on Hands and Aura. The Hexblade's advantage here would be the higher DPR if he can pull of the full setup (Darkness + Devils Sight + Elven Accuracy + Curse etc YMMV).
If you need something else, Paladin might flat out not be able to fill the niche where the Warlock has options with Pact & Incantations on top of being able to chose in between EB, S&B, GWF, Ranged Weapon or something more exotic.

Some examples in favor of the Paladin:

Around tier 2 Oath of Conquest can be an obnoxious anchor for your party monsters will have trouble to get past. A warlock doesn't have the same level combined area control and defenses (vs non fear immune opponents).

A Warlock can't match the raw passive defensive buffs of Oath of the Anciencts Spell Resistance + improved saving throws for himself and other party members or the stickiness of an Oath of the Crown Paladin.

If Mounted Combatant with Find Greater Steed is an option in your campaign, Griffin/Pegasus/... mounted Paladin (OoV for Haste on himself and his mount) is a menace to behold, nothing quite like it for a Warlock.

The (Redemption) Paladin makes for a better healer/protector (since we can't be a Celestial Warlock if we're a Hexblade).

For any build requiring Ranged Weapons, blasting from range or focused on Spells(Rituals) and spell like features (Incantations) the Hexblade has the Paladin's number.
All of this goes out of the window if we open multiclassing.

[nickl_2000]

Hexblade is better on their own. Paladin is a better team player.

[kbob]

Thanks. Some of this was pretty detailed. It gives me more insight in how I view these roles. They are both melee roles (Hexblade designed to be but could be the best warlock EB spammer). They both can do their share of damage and both can tank and support. However, they are very different mechanic-wise in how they fill their roles. It seems that the hex is more versatile and a more “powerful” character in the classical sense (can overcome more challenges). However, what the paly brings to a party as a buffer/support and it’s potential to 1v1 the BBEG is more focused but is something that the hex cannot do as well (or any other class for that matter). I do realize MC changes things. I mean Paly with just 1 dip hex let alone 2-3 changes him considerably and hex going sorcerer after going just 3 level warlock can be broken. But I was just interested in the classes themselves and in how I view them. Thanks!

[Bobthewizard]

I think for that party, a paladin would be better. Adding another healer and the paladin's aura likely outshines the higher level spells of the hexblade since you already have 2 full casters.

If you are going to compare a hexblade to a paladin, though, I think we should be discussing a pact of the blade hexblade. Compared to a paladin, the blade pact has less HP, lower AC, and no aura, but I think they might be better at nova damage than a paladin.

Hexblade lets you stack elven accuracy with GWM increasing both your chance of hitting with that -5/+10 and your chance of criticals, increasing your chance of doubling your smite dice, and of getting the bonus acton attack from GWM. Eldritch smite also scales more quickly than divine smite since Warlocks get higher level spell slots to use.

At level 9, a hexblade's smite does 6d8, while a paladin's only does 4d8. Paladin's are able to use lower level slots for lesser smites but it is so satisfying to add the 50 points of damage for a level 5 smite on a critical. The paladin also is less likely to get a critical hit allowing them to double their dice.

And at level 9, you could have improved pact weapon, thirsting blade, and eldritch smite, with agonizing blast for ranged damage and one more invocation.

[Hael]

Thanks. Some of this was pretty detailed. It gives me more insight in how I view these roles. They are both melee roles (Hexblade designed to be but could be the best warlock EB spammer). They both can do their share of damage and both can tank and support. However, they are very different mechanic-wise in how they fill their roles. It seems that the hex is more versatile and a more “powerful” character in the classical sense (can overcome more challenges). However, what the paly brings to a party as a buffer/support and it’s potential to 1v1 the BBEG is more focused but is something that the hex cannot do as well (or any other class for that matter). I do realize MC changes things. I mean Paly with just 1 dip hex let alone 2-3 changes him considerably and hex going sorcerer after going just 3 level warlock can be broken. But I was just interested in the classes themselves and in how I view them. Thanks!

I’d say the Paladin is more versatile in the sense that it does more roles. It can heal, buff, debuff, tank and nova damage. The Hexblade is more of an offtank and is a fair bit higher dpr and generally has spells that are far more offensive. The invocations add some versatility.

It really depends the party comp and what’s needed, but they’re two of the best martials in the game and you can’t really go wrong.

[Mr Adventurer]

I would say hexblades are considerably more powerful in Tier 1 due to the fact that the class is very front loaded. Eldritch blast gives them a strong ranged attack that the paladin cannot match, giving them great offensive versatility.


In Tier 1, IF the character spends one of their cantrips on Eldritch Blast, then it's worse than a Heavy Crossbow. Unless they ALSO spend one if their invocations on it, when it edges forward because it uses your primary stat.

Eldritch Blast plus Agonising Blast is a very potent combo, of course it is. But let's not pretend it's an automatic feature of every Warlock when it does come with opportunity cost, or that one 1d10 attack at Tier 1 is show-stopping.

[Tes]

Rant:

Imho the biggest problem with the comparisons so far is neglegting absolutely everything else for "Hexblade does moar DPR".
Forgetting the Hexblade is never going to max STR or DEX (thus easily grappled), doesn't have access to Heavy Armor or a Fighting Style, doesn't have Aura, D8 Hitdie and lacks the Immunities and Lay on Hands a Paldin gets.
There's a reason Paladin dips Hexblade and the other way around is barely talked about.

Hexblade is front loaded and focused on burst damage. The Pally is behind on damage but has extra 2AC, +1 Hitpoint/level and the Aura to go with the free full heal, curing conditions, immunity etc.
Being down gets in the way of DPR. Compared to the Hexblade the Paladin sticks around forever.

DnD combats aren't about comparing max DPR. They're about having an optimal ratio for your party dealing vs receiving damage.
The easier the fight, the better the Hexblade - get two hits(crits) off, Smite with both, combat over, outshine everyone else. Short Rest. Repeat.

In fights against opponents you can't down with those two hits(crits) the Hexblade schtick is going to be less good. Fights where you get downed in a single round, because you have less hit points and less AC or end up in a control spell/ability because your saves suck/got grappled by a Roper are going to be more realistic fights than the usual "I'm hitting AC18 with triple Advantage and Curse up".
Compare that to an OoV PAM + GWM Pally with VoE & Huntersmark up in a 3 round fight, count the PAM Reaction attack in, Smite with all remaining Spellslots. The Pally can keep up if you really want to - and keeps the better defenses for free. He'll need a long rest after, but eh, we don't care about that when looking for max damage/fight.

A LVL20 Warcaster Arcane Trickster Rogue getting a Booming Blade Attack + Reaction Attack off every turn (because he is in a party with teamwork and has a Battlemaster and Order Cleric buddy or something on top of permanent Advantage thanks to Owl Familiar Flyby Help Action) is gonna make the Hexblade look pretty meh if you're just looking for big numbers.

DnD isn't a solo game, pure Hexblade is really not all that impressive in combat tbh. I'd take a high AC Frontliner like a S&B Eldritch Knight + Feylock using Control Spells any day over a Crossbowmaster Champion Figher + a Hexblade Warlock if I was planning to beat Deadly Encounters with the party they're going to be part of.

Hexblade has about 2 buttons to click in combat if you play it like this. Hex and Smite. Both are fairly limited and that whole thing gets old pretty quick on top of being far from top end.
/Rant

TL:DR
Pure Hexblade doesn't really deal amazing damage. Damage output for a single PC in a vacuum without considering the rest of the Party's or the existence of less than ideal circumstances might be a tad overused and overrated as a metric.
Just play Crossbowmaster + Sharpshooter Battlemaster if you want to deal great damage with a few options. Just kidding, don't. Gets boring fast. Fun for a oneshot though.

Absolutely no offense intended to anyone.
Guess we all just need to imagine DnD character builds on a table more often rather than treating them like we're in a videogame with a leaderboard?

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've seen several of both, and the Hexblade tends to disappoint in comparison. The players I've seen took it thinking it was an edgier Paladin and found that two Eldritch Smites per short rest a Paladin doth not make. A Paladin is also a defensive juggernaut with excellent support and healing potential, and the Hexblade simply cannot measure up in those ways at all. They don't even compete. You certainly can have EB and the invocations to make it worthwhile, but that directly competes with why anyone would even consider a melee Paladin-style Hexblade in the first place. The same can be said for most of their other spells, you have to deliberately weaken your melee in order to do anything else- spend a spell slot on a nice buff or crowd control spell, you're down to a single smite for at least the next hour until high levels. To say nothing of how a Hexblade's selfishness ability-wise is unlikely to ever ingratiate themselves to the party in the way a Paladin can. Everyone gets excited when a Paladin hits level 6.

The Hexblade is a very powerful subclass, no doubt. Some would even say too powerful. But ironically, they're best when not being played like a frontline Paladin-style melee fighter. At least without dips.

[kbob]

Thanks for the responses and discussion! I think in an attempt for brevity I just made some assumptions with my points. The hex I run is a front liner but not as tanky as the paly. He cannot keep up with the paly smites as he only has 2 spells. Actually I don’t even have ES as an evocation. Mine are AB, tricksters escape, thirsting Blade, devils sight, cloak of flies. He also has PAM and Resil/Con. He is certainly set up to fight up close but can do some range damage if needed. But again the paly will outshine in smites and buffs due to spell slots and class abilities.
That said, the paly can’t banish someone when it gets too hairy. If I need a big boy gone to thin out the numbers, the hex can do that. Need to incapacitate several baddies at once, hypnotic pattern or just drop them with synaptic static with a chance to screw over the survivors. Think the invisible guy is over “there”, sickening radiance. Want adv and give dadv on attacks made/taken, shadow of moil. Want to fly? Got it. Add blink with shadow of moil and maybe a scroll of mirror image couple that with armor of hexes and your almost unhitable. That’s if your spells are designed for combat, like mine, and not focused on other uses. Don’t forget the specter. I think it’s one of the most downplayed overlooked perks of hex. You have a pet that can go through walls and fly. The other bonuses the specter have (necrotic damage, immunities, resistance, etc) are just fluff at a certain point due to leveling. But you still have a pet that can go through wall and fly. I just don’t see the paly stacking up in the big picture sense. Eventually you do get 3-4 spells plus mystic arcarnums. That makes the warlock (what the Hexblade really is) even more powerful. In the end when I say Hexblade is more powerful in the “classical sense” this is what I mean. He is a full caster in a way and gets the benefits of such while still being one of the best gishes (some argue the best) in the game. Straight Warlock (no MC) as a full caster is lack luster compared to other full casters. But Hexblade changes that up. You now have a potential front liner that, when needed, is a full caster.
All that said, even tho I like my hex better than my paly that is only cuz of how I made their personalities. As a whole, Paladin has always been my favorite class in DnD. I just love the flavor. I appreciate that 5e actually made them good. They have been suffering for a while until then. Never played 4e but 3e they were meh. Best saves in game if your char was high but MAD and smite was, yawn. ADnD they were meh as well. Unless they ended up with a holy sword. Never give an ADnD paly a holy sword and if you do make that mistake PLEASE don’t make it a holy avenger. He becomes an unstoppable force of righteousness indignation to all evil.
5e tho, made him one of the best front liners and gave him a position. There are a few things I’m not keen on, I miss spamming detect evil (evil intent in ADnD) and the bonded mount is worked out a little odd for me but overall they made him a lot better! He is more flexibility now too with requirements and customizations (subclasses) and He still has the vanilla paly flavor that I personally love (devotion). He is now a show stopper for a BBEG. My first 5e game was a short 5 part campaign a friend ran. We started at 11 level and made it up to 14. At 12, I remember coming to a sub-boss fight of his. Some giant, I don’t remember what kind or the buffs it had. I just remember getting lucky and rolling 2 20s on my first turn. I was last in Initiative, next to the giant, and he was already hurt but no where near bloodied (ya I know 4e term and ya I never played it ha). I asked the DM who had a shocked look on his face if i could smite or if I had to state that first. He reminded me that I could and should. After the damage, which rolled very well too, he told me to go ahead and narrate how I just destroyed this giant that he “planned for (us) to be fighting for an hour”. It was great! Anyway, I think paly serves that role as tank/smiter better (and I love the class more) but I think hex is “better” overall.

[Alucard89]

Since both classes are my favourites I will break it down to you how I see them and when I think one is better than other:

1. DPR - Hexblade hands down. PAM GWM, PAM, Xbow Expert, EA Agonizing Blast etc. builds provides great DPR. Add Darkness Devil Sight combo, Fly, Shadow of Moil, Curse, Hex, Life Drinker etc. and you have DPR machine. Also very very flexible. Even PAM GWM build will have access to Agonizing Blast for range combat and even Xbow Expert build will be as effective in melee as in range combat. On top of that we have Eldricht Smite, Levistus tomb etc.

2. Nova- Paladin hands down. Smites on top of VoE or Sacred Weapon are just Nova-town when it comes to killing bosses, casters etc. If you like "big numbers when it matters" style of combat - Paladin hands down.

3. Tank - Paladin due to Aura, heavy armor, healing hands, Circle of Power spell etc.

4. Caster - Hexblade hands down. Access to higher level spells faster + Mystic Arcanums, giving him level 6,7,8 and 9 spells are just too good.

5. Support - Paladin of course.

6. Flexibility - Hexblade. SAD CHA + great melee + great range DPR thanks to EB + AB. Paladins struggle hard in range combat and have pretty much nothing there and they are more MAD. They also lack AOE spells, which hexblades get. They also have better spell list overall for different situations and since their best combos invovle pretty much either one spell (Darkness or SOM) and one cantrip - you can take much more utility spells.

7. Striker/Harraser - Hexblade. Due to giving constantly disadvantage to enemies + being safe from all spells that rely on seeing the target and not provoking OAs - Hexblades are great strikers and harasser, capable on going in, hitting, going out and forcing enemies to either chase them into their Darkness/SOM area or leave themselfs open for strikes.

And in the end we have Short vs Long rest. This depends on DM. If your DM respects short rest classes and allow 2x short rest per adventuring day - Hexblade/Warlock is great pick. If he does not - sadly Paladin and any long-rest class will be just better, period.

[kbob]

I really like how you broke that down. both are my favorites too, it's just paly has been around for me to like longer. Bard would be my other favorite. But thanks for that break down!

[Hael]

Rant:
Hexblade has about 2 buttons to click in combat if you play it like this. Hex and Smite. Both are fairly limited and that whole thing gets old pretty quick on top of being far from top end.


A hexblades two spellslots are almost always going to be spent casting shadow of moil, and you'll rarely see a smite used unless you get more slots via items. That fills the two fights per short rest criteria.

With the conditions of this spell that's adding something like +4AC to the Hexblade (making him harder to hit than the Paladin) and untargetable to spells (somewhat making up for the save deficiency). This also provides advantage which is why a Hexblade will have significantly higher sustained dpr than anything a Paladin can do without novaing.
A Vengeance Paladin can make up the advantage difference with VoE for one of the two fights/sr but then the Hexblade's curse adds additional proficiency damage and crit range as well as armor of hexes (more dice rolls to remove damage), which all in all gives him comparable individual levels of tankiness with of course more damage.

So end of the day, the Paladin is more party effective due to the auras and the Hexblade is more damage oriented, and I agree with Alucards breakdown.

From a pure class power point of view, I would say Tier1 is Hexblade hands down, tier 2 is definitely Paladin, tier 3 is debatable and tier 4 is Hexblade (b/c he turns into a dragon permanently and breaks the game) although of course so much is based upon party comp, which zones you fight in (outdoors strongly favors Paladins) and the long rest vs short rest preference of your GM.

Again, no wrong answers here, they're the two best martials in the game by a significant margin.

[Tes]

A hexblades two spellslots are almost always going to be spent casting shadow of moil, and you'll rarely see a smite used unless you get more slots via items. That fills the two fights per short rest criteria.

With the conditions of this spell that's adding something like +4AC to the Hexblade (making him harder to hit than the Paladin) and untargetable to spells (somewhat making up for the save deficiency). This also provides advantage which is why a Hexblade will have significantly higher sustained dpr than anything a Paladin can do without novaing.
A Vengeance Paladin can make up the advantage difference with VoE for one of the two fights/sr but then the Hexblade's curse adds additional proficiency damage and crit range as well as armor of hexes (more dice rolls to remove damage), which all in all gives him comparable individual levels of tankiness with of course more damage.

So end of the day, the Paladin is more party effective due to the auras and the Hexblade is more damage oriented, and I agree with Alucards breakdown.

From a pure class power point of view, I would say Tier1 is Hexblade hands down, tier 2 is definitely Paladin, tier 3 is debatable and tier 4 is Hexblade (b/c he turns into a dragon permanently and breaks the game) although of course so much is based upon party comp, which zones you fight in (outdoors strongly favors Paladins) and the long rest vs short rest preference of your GM.

Again, no wrong answers here, they're the two best martials in the game by a significant margin.
That quote you're responding to was an answer to a claim that the Hexblade is better at Smiting/Nova than the Paladin (which is true in a 1 Round fights with only 2 hits going through, not so much in a 3 round fight).

Since the OP gave this comparison the handicap that it pits Hexblade against the entire Paladin class and all it's options... it's naturally really hard for the Hexblade. To Outnova an OoV PAM + GWM Pally in a 3 round fight you need a Fighter or Multiclassing.

At Tier1 a PAM OoV Paladin can keep up with Hunters Mark, which isn't 1/Short Rest the way Curse is and stackable with VoE to offset the "bossfight" damage advantage Curse gives.

Comparing Shadow of Moil to something similar you'd be looking at the Pally with Haste. Whenever you consider Curse, OoV has VoE. Don't think the Hexblade ever pulls ahead for a full tier without AoE even after turning into a dragon in T4. Not next to the Griffon riding OoV Pally with T4 items (or lowballing it, a +2 Glaive). BTW regular Chromatic/Metallic Dragons don't get magic attacks and you're at T4 - YMMV with that true polymorph if you're fighting CR15+.

Not to create misunderstandings - I'm not saying Hexblade is weak. It's just on par with OoV at hitting things with a stick if hitting things with a stick is what you care to compare about them. Imho hitting things with a stick is not an important metric past a certain point, especially with restrictions like no multiclassing. Most of the party is going to be able to do it reasonably well. Some PCs are good at nova, some have devastating AoE but most of that really pales compared to the impact of a control Spell or Ability trivializing entire encounters. Doing 50% more DPR than the next guy is a 10% increase in encounter efficiency for a 5 man party. The caster disabling half the opponents with a Control Spell is 100% (Charm, Walls, Banish, whatever works for that encounter).

The important thing about the Hexblade is that it's pretty much a Full Caster while beating things with a stick, the pally has saves galore and half a dozen subclasses to pick for whatever the hell you want - the "strongest" Paladin Subclass is definitely something else than OoV. Doubling down on defenses with Ancients for that funky Aura. Or Conquest, since clicking a button to AoE disable the most common enemy type in the game - melee combatants - is pretty neat, even though a lot of things are immune to it.

As far as singleclass, singletarget DPR goes - if it can't outdo a Battlemaster GWM/Crossbowmaster+Sharpshooter using Action Surge I don't see why it would matter for anything. :smallwink:


One more kind of playstyle the Paladin enables is "tanking" like no other class.
For the most part tanking in DnD is standing in front of things with Sentinel or Booming Blade+Warcaster and convince the target of your affection to stick around and try playing with you. Technically you're applying mediocre single target CC, but it takes your Reaction instead of your Action, since you're usually better at having HP and AC than other classes that makes it good. Problems here are stuff that can escape i.e. using Misty Step, the tank getting disabled or flat out missing the AoO.
Compelled Duel is one of the few tank mechanics in the game, unfortunately it's soso and Concentration. Fortunately we're a Paladin and fine with all of that. It's not great, but it let's you convince another target not to hit the Wizard and it works from range.

Funny enough OoV in my book is strongest as a Sword & Board mitigator tank/duelist. Being able to generate Advantage for AoOs through VoE makes it a lot more reliable.
Resilience Con, Shieldmaster, Sentinel. Access to Haste for +2 AC and Advantage for Dex Saves, no damage on success, just stand in front of things and soak actions. If whatever you're standing in front of is a real nasty, you can annoy it with Dodge+Haste Attack to benefit from your AC exponentially. Misty Step and Lay on Hands rounds out the kit nicely. The option to switch modes is also still there, you're still good at hitting things and can Smite.

Paladin in general makes for an excellent candidate to stand in the way of things and dare them to try getting past. The Aura soaks up action economy and makes sure things have to try their luck with your AC more often than not. Being proficient in WIS and CHA saves on top helps a lot here.
Crown might be a bit underrated in that regard. Champion's Challenge is everything Compelled Duel wanted to be, not a Spell so no Concentration, an amazing AoE save or suck ability to get at level 3. Situational in preventing damage, but does a great job at directing it inside its taunt area. On top of having repercussions for any type of enemy. Melee opponents can't go after a Wizard 40 feet behind you as long as you're up, ranged opponents can't get out of the threat range from the Barbarian next to you. The mobile restricted area around you makes for fun shenanigans with Wall spells as well, i.e. the opponents trapped against a straight wall on an open field with nowhere to go.
Spirit Guardians adds another level of control and damage, pairs nicely with your CD, Divine Allegiance adds your HP pool to the raging Barbarian next to you. Or lets you save someone by walking next to them.

If I wanted to build an ideal party for deadly encounters it would have a Paladin with 20 CHA in it and he'd be wearing a Shield.

[Alucard89]

That quote you're responding to was an answer to a claim that the Hexblade is better at Smiting/Nova than the Paladin (which is true in a 1 Round fights with only 1 hits going through, not so much in a 3 round fight).

Since the OP gave this comparison the handicap that it pits Hexblade against the entire Paladin class and all it's options... it's naturally really hard for the Hexblade. To Outnova an OoV PAM + GWM Pally in a 3 round fight you need a Fighter or Multiclassing.

At Tier1 a PAM OoV Paladin can keep up with Hunters Mark, which isn't 1/Short Rest the way Curse is and stackable with VoE to offset the "bossfight" damage advantage Curse gives.
At Tier2
At Tier3

Comparing Shadow of Moil to something similar you'd be looking at the Pally with Haste. Whenever you consider Curse, OoV has VoE. Don't think the Hexblade ever pulls ahead for a full tier without AoE even after turning into a dragon in T4. Not next to the Griffon riding OoV Pally with T4 items (or lowballing it, a +2 Glaive). BTW regular Chromatic/Metallic Dragons don't get magic attacks and you're at T4 - YMMV.

Not to create misunderstandings - I'm not saying Hexblade is weak. It's just on par with OoV at hitting things with a stick if hitting things with a stick is what you care to compare about them. Imho hitting things with a stick is not an important metric past a certain point, especially with restrictions like no multiclassing. Most of the party is going to be able to do it well. Some PCs are good at nova, some have devastating AoE but most of that really plaes compared to the impact of a control Spell or Ability trivializing entire encounters. Doing 50% more DPR than the next guy isn't relevant in a 5 man party. The Wizard swinging action economy for encounters by 50% with Wall Spells affecting all 5 party members is.

The important thing about the Hexblade is that it's pretty much a Full Caster while beating things with a stick, the pally has saves galore and half a dozen subclasses to pick for whatever the hell you want - the "strongest" Paladin Subclass is definitely something else than OoV. Doubling down on defenses with Ancients for that funky Aura. Or Conquest, since clicking a button to AoE disable the most common enemy type in the game - melee combatants - is pretty neat, even though a lot of things are immune to it.

As far as singleclass, singletarget DPR goes - if it can't outdo a Battlemaster GWM/Crossbowmaster+Sharpshooter using Action Surge I don't see why it would matter for anything. :smallwink:

The only Pally that can get Haste is Vengeance, so it's not good example. Also Haste is not very good buff on Paladin himself. Losing concentration on it is HUGE downside and since you are front liner eating every spell/attack you are going to do a lot of conc. saves and even with aura and warcaster - there is still a chance to fail it. Besides Paladin has a lot overall better conc. spells than Haste and as you said - if all you care about is single target DPR - Paladin is also not the answer, just make Crossbow Master Sharpshooter Battlemater or Hexblade then.

Now Hexblade Xbowmaster + SS can totally outdo Battlemaster if multiclass. All it needs is 2 levels of fighter and that is all. Because you get Action Surge, but you also have Life Drinker, free advantage, 120 feet super darkvision (something that Vuman doesn't have) and smites on top of it. If you can also first sneak in Curse on target that gives +5 to every hit and +5 from Life Drinker, and again - you attack with advantage every attack here and on crit you can burn Smite for 10/12d8 bonus damage. But getting back to monoclass:

Maximum DPR is not why you want to take Hexblade or Paladin. Hexblade is just more flexible in combat than Paladin, because he is way more mobile due to not provoking OAs from majority of enemies, being untargetable by many spells and attacking with advantage not only single target but every target on battlefield. But Hexblade is definitely more DPR than Paladin because of increased accuracy. Accuracy > Damage per hit if we talk about AC of 18+. You can do 1000k damage per hit but if you can't hit anything - what does it matter? VoE can match that vs single target, but as we all know here- killing single target in 5e is the easiest part due to action economy. Again - I don't think anyway should pick Paladin just for damage numbers. They are great mix of tank, nova and support and that is their main strength.


Doing 50% more DPR than the next guy isn't relevant in a 5 man party. The Wizard swinging action economy for encounters by 50% with Wall Spells affecting all 5 party members is.

Of course it is relevant. If you are doing 50% more damage than next highest damage in your party then you are killing stuff faster. If your DPR is 20 and next guy is 10 and we assume rest of the party is around 7-9 then your whole party is doing DPR of 34, while you are doing DPR of 20. That means you do more damage than 2,5 party members combined. How that is not relevant for you - I have no idea.

Swinging action enconomy with Wall spell is great, but Wall is not available in every combat if we consider 6-8 encounters per adventuring day. Also who cares about swinging action economy if there is no damage to support it from behind. Wizards are awesome yes - in party where there is something in front line and that can damage stuff they CC. Damage is as relevant in this game as Control. You can control Ancient Dragon all day if you want - but unless you can kill him - you just buy time. I can guarantee you that 5 people with optimized damage will end ecnounter faster than Wizard + 4 random builds even if wizard will cut the encounter in half. Because in the end killed enemy is best controled enemy. Saying that damage is inrelevant is just nonsense.

Anyway going back to original discussion because who cares about Wizards and Wall spells in thread about Hex vs Pally - If what you want is flexible gish with both melee and range combat cover + reliable DPR every fight + 6,7,8,9 level spells - pick Hexblade. If what you want is front line support tank with option for hard Nova on high-priority enemy and don't mind being half-caster - pick Paladin. It is as easy as that.

[Mr Adventurer]

Now Hexblade Xbowmaster + SS can totally outdo Battlemaster if multiclass. All it needs is 2 levels of fighter and that is all. Because you get Action Surge, but you also have Life Drinker, free advantage, 120 feet super darkvision (something that Vuman doesn't have) and smites on top of it. If you can also first sneak in Curse on target that gives +5 to every hit and +5 from Life Drinker, and again - you attack with advantage every attack here and on crit you can burn Smite for 10/12d8 bonus damage.

You toss this out really casually but this build doesn't even get here until level 14.

It's also inaccurate to say "advantage with every attack" considering how easy darkness is overcome or disadvantage is applied to you.

[Alucard89]

You toss this out really casually but this build doesn't even get here until level 14.

It's also inaccurate to say "advantage with every attack" considering how easy darkness is overcome or disadvantage is applied to you.

What? How is darkness easy overcome? Do your encounters have enemy caster in every fight and in every fight that caster think his best usage of precious spell slot and action is to counter 2nd level spell instead of doing AOE spells or trying to counter your party caster? If that is - great for my team if all he wants to do is counter my 2nd level spell while my party Fighter smacks him in the face. Even better at higher levels. Also how disadvantage is applied to Hexblade? You see in darkness as Hexblade which gives you advantage.

Also Darkness is being replaced by SOM on level 7. And it is accuracte that you have advantage on every attack if you want. The only thing that can beat it is blindsight. True Seeing doesn't work on SOM and vs Tremor you have Fly.

[RSP]

SoM is, in most situations, not the best use of a spell slot (playing a level 13 Hexblade now through SKT and I think I’ve used it twice). Not a bad spell, but it’s best use is avoiding sight spells. Depending on how often you’re fighting casters could impact its usefulness. I’ll also say that ES is a worse use of a Pact Magic slot.

Synaptic Static, Hypnotic Pattern/Fear, Hex (depending on playstyle), Dimension Door, Sickening Radiance, Far Step, and Fly all are better uses under most situations.

Overall, I think Paladin is the stronger of the two, but both are solid choices. Earlier on, a melee Hexblade Bladelock is spending all its invocations (Thirsting Blade, ES, IPW) just to be as good of a melee combatant as the Paladin. They’re still going to be better at range than a Paladin, but a Paladin still has plenty going for it.

A melee Hexblade can consistently out damage the Paladin but that’s about it; and doing so costs the Hexblade 2 feats (GWM and PAM); uses their invocations on TB, IPW, ES, Lifedrinker, and probably DS (due to Variant Human to get feats and max out Cha by 12); their BAs all compete (GWM/PAM/Hexblades Curse/Hex/Far Step); they cant wear a shield; and if using SoM, they don’t have slots for anything else and their entire 1st round of combat is used not doing damage, kind of messing with the point of such high damage output. The level 10 and 14 Hexblade abilities are kind of meh (unless your combats tend to be against 1 lone big monster that only has 1 Attack per round). It’s a horribly inefficient build that’s trades all the potential versatility of a Warlock for damage output.

The Paladin will have all of its defensive capabilities, it’s spell slots available for smites or spells, an increasing number of slots and LoH healing, subclass features, etc; and still be decent at damage output.

[Hael]

Just to give numbers here. A lvl 13 sharpshooter Battlemaster does on the order of 30 sustained dpr against AC20 without using his battlemaster die, whereas a Shadow of Moil Pam/GWM Hexblade does about 55 dpr against ac20 with curse up. With Action surge, the Battlemaster beats the Hexblade for exactly one round in a boss fight (three if you count buff rounds where the fighter is firing and the hexblade is casting som and cursing). (no magic items assumed here).

If the fighter uses his battlemaster die, the Hexblade uses an Eldritch smite, which again will massively favor the Hexblade's damage. Anything over 4 rounds and the Hexblade will be significantly outdpring the warrior. A fight with low ac and lots of adds? Hexblade casts cone of cold and wins. A fight with a higher ac? It gets worse for the fighter.

You get the picture... Its only at lvl 20 where a fighter slightly outdamages a Hexblade, but by that point the Hexblade has turned into a pitfiend, has a CR9 familiar and a CR9 mount and outdprs the entire group by himself unless there is another full caster with even more ridiculous shenanigans (martials aren't really relevant anymore).

I'm just saying, as a sustained single target damage package the singleclass Hexblade is up there with some of the strongest possible builds in the game. You would need to multiclass into some of the crazy whisper bard combos, sorlocks or various gloomstalker/fighter builds to surpass this.

[RSP]

Just to give numbers here. A lvl 13 sharpshooter Battlemaster does on the order of 30 sustained dpr against AC20 without using his battlemaster die, whereas a Shadow of Moil Pam/GWM Hexblade does about 55 dpr against ac20 with curse up. With Action surge, the Battlemaster beats the Hexblade for exactly one round in a boss fight (three if you count buff rounds where the fighter is firing and the hexblade is casting som and cursing). (no magic items assumed here).

If the fighter uses his battlemaster die, the Hexblade uses an Eldritch smite, which again will massively favor the Hexblade's damage. Anything over 4 rounds and the Hexblade will be significantly outdpring the warrior. A fight with low ac and lots of adds? Hexblade casts cone of cold and wins. A fight with a higher ac? It gets worse for the fighter.

You get the picture... Its only at lvl 20 where a fighter slightly outdamages a Hexblade, but by that point the Hexblade has turned into a pitfiend, has a CR9 familiar and a CR9 mount and outdprs the entire group by himself unless there is another full caster with even more ridiculous shenanigans (martials aren't really relevant anymore).

I'm just saying, as a sustained single target damage package the singleclass Hexblade is up there with some of the strongest possible builds in the game. You would need to multiclass into some of the crazy whisper bard combos, sorlocks or various gloomstalker/fighter builds to surpass this.

Not sure your numbers are correct here. In addition, you seem to assume BM die has a 1:1 relationship with Warlock spell slots for some reason.

Also, are you accounting for BA competition when moving Hexblades Curse?

In addition, even if everything you posted is considered factually correct (which I don’t think holds up), it’s not taking into account loss of AC/HP attrition/Conc checks to maintain the Hexblade’s numbers. Also, SoM doesn’t help against Saves that don’t require sight. A fireball, for instance, will not just most likely do full damage against the Hexblade with SoM up, but will also most likely cause SoM to drop. (Not to mention Counterspell or Dispel Magic being a hard counter to this build).

It also assumes 1 of 2 scenarios: a single boss or lots of weaker mobs conveniently grouped together for CoC. It also assumes the Hexblade will go into every fight with at least 2 spell slots.

[Tes]

Are you forgetting SOM costs an Action to cast or something? That's why I compared it to Haste in the first place btw, not because Haste is the end all be all, but because it requires setup. Someone correct me if I'm missing something.
The Battlemaster is 2 "rounds" ahead in DPR before the Hexblade throws the first attack with SOM active.

Why are we comparing AC 20 without Battlemaster dice? The entire point of being a Battlemaster is to offset the -5 from SS or GWM with that die.
You've been casting SOM, so take that Smite with your remaining Spellslot. 4 round fight, The Battlemaster has 5 rounds of combat thanks to Action Surge (-1 Xbowmaster Bonus Action attack) and used his dice vs the Warlock attacking 3 rounds (-1 XBowmaster Bonus Action Attack to cast Hex) + Smite.
Also Archery FS for a +2 on the BM and an extra ASI or two and a whole attack per round, cuz Fighter. Honestly don't have to do the Math on that one.

The Battlemaster doesn't care if the target has Blindsight/Tremorsense/Devil's Sight (we're lvl 14, yes?) or doesn't have Hex on it. No setup, that's the beauty of being a Fighter. No Bonus Action required to move that Hex either.
If you want a PAM/GWM Hexblade, compare it to a PAM/GWM Battlemaster with +2 STR. :smallbiggrin:

Maybe the Math would be easier to do for a Champion...
...but the Battlemaster actually does more damage by not missing those +10 hits.

[Hael]

Not sure your numbers are correct here.

If you search on reddit 3d6 for sustained dpr, you'll find the spreadsheet with the numbers that I quoted.

I just used LudicSavant's calculator and got slightly different numbers (feel free to double check me).
Fighter: attackbonus: 12 (5 str + 5pro + 2 archery). Then 4 attacks at 1d6+5 with a crit range of 20 no advantage. result (using -5 / 10): 35.6 dpr
Hexblade: attackbonus: 11 (5cha + 5 pro + 1 invocation). Then 2 attacks at 1d10 + (5 + 5 + 1 + 5) and 1 at 1d4 + (16) all with a crit range of 19 and advantage. result (using -5/10) with adv: 62.16 dpr. Close enough to what I said before.

A battlemaster has 5d10 worth of battledie at 13, if he ripostes every turn thats 5 attacks worth 34damage (see ludics calculator) + 27.5 = 61.5 avg total dmg per short rest at best. A hexblade will critfish a smite for 12d8 = 54 avg damage/sr, or use that slot for an aoe spell for more. If the Hexblade is a halfdrow (which I was) then he has an additional spellslot that he can use for another smite (putting him well ahead).

I'm not going to include the extra 5 or 6 dpr from the Hexblade's minion... (im assuming one curse only on a one fight blow everything you got deal)

You get the picture. The reason the numbers are so skewed is b/c of self-advantage. In practise the party will generate advantage for the fighter on a few rounds so its not quite as bad as it looks here and in practise the Hexblade curse won't always be up when they're fighting adds, but well you can see that the damage numbers are never going to go in the fighters favor until he has another attack or some way of having advantage...

[Tes]

If you search on reddit 3d6 for sustained dpr, you'll find the spreadsheet with the numbers that I quoted.

I just used LudicSavant's calculator and got slightly different numbers (feel free to double check me).
Fighter: attackbonus: 12 (5 str + 5pro + 2 archery). Then 4 attacks at 1d6+5 with a crit range of 20 no advantage. result (using -5 / 10): 35.6 dpr
Hexblade: attackbonus: 11 (5cha + 5 pro + 1 invocation). Then 2 attacks at 1d10 + (5 + 5 + 1 + 5) and 1 at 1d4 + (16) all with a crit range of 19 and advantage. result (using -5/10) with adv: 62.16 dpr. Close enough to what I said before.

A battlemaster has 5d10 worth of battledie at 13, if he ripostes every turn thats 5 attacks worth 34damage (see ludics calculator) + 27.5 = 61.5 avg total dmg per short rest at best. A hexblade will critfish a smite for 12d8 = 54 avg damage/sr, or use that slot for an aoe spell for more. If the Hexblade is a halfdrow (which I was) then he has an additional spellslot that he can use for another smite (putting him well ahead).

I'm not going to include the extra 5 or 6 dpr from the Hexblade's minion... (im assuming one curse only on a one fight blow everything you got deal)

You get the picture. The reason the numbers are so skewed is b/c of self-advantage. In practise the party will generate advantage for the fighter on a few rounds so its not quite as bad as it looks here and in practise the Hexblade curse won't always be up when they're fighting adds, but well you can see that the damage numbers are never going to go in the fighters favor until he has another attack or some way of having advantage...
Hexblades can only smite with Warlock Slots. Only Paladin can use whatever.

The Battlemaster should be using his dice on Precision Strike to turn misses into hits up to 5d6 + 25 + 50 extra damage (Weapondie +5DEX +10 is worth more than trying to hit AC20 with a new Attack at -5) 1-2 of those might still miss depending how close you want to cut it. Can't Riposte with a Crossbow.
By the time your Warlock does 62.16 damage your DPR is 36.08, you spent turn 1 buffing yourself. The Battlemaster beats that, without Action Surge, using a Weapon with D6 damage die against AC20 - less than favorable circumstances.

Run the numbers for AC18 if you really want to lose hard.
Or try again with Great Weapon Fighting FS + GWM + PAM. Probably better to run your numbers with Champion first, Battlemaster will be higher.

[Mr Adventurer]

What? How is darkness easy overcome?

Shadow of Moil spell says "Flame-like shadows wreathe your body until the spell ends, causing you to become heavily obscured to others. The shadows turn dim light within 10 feet of you into darkness, and bright light in the same area to dim light."

Darkvision overcomes it, since it's just shadows causing darkness. Upcast Daylight, which lasts an hour with no concentration, automatically dispels it on contact. Blindsight ignores it. Truesight does actually also ignore it.


Do your encounters have enemy caster in every fight and in every fight that caster think his best usage of precious spell slot and action is to counter 2nd level spell instead of doing AOE spells or trying to counter your party caster? If that is - great for my team if all he wants to do is counter my 2nd level spell while my party Fighter smacks him in the face. Even better at higher levels.

That's a silly question, and irrelevant.

Some encounters include spellcasters with Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Daylight, or something else. For example, at 14th level as your build is, I just recently ran a Hard encounter vs a party of 4 which included two Mages (9th level spellcasters) and they were not the centerpiece.

The level of the spell is irrelevant. It's the effect on the battle which that spell has which is important. (This is even more true for a Warlock who doesn't even have 2nd level spell slots at 12th level.) You've done a great job of setting out the great effect this spell could have - so it's absurd to scoff at the idea of countering it.

Finally, your original comment said "always". I don't need to show that it's actually "never". Only that it's actually only "sometimes".


Also how disadvantage is applied to Hexblade? You see in darkness as Hexblade which gives you advantage.

A quick glance shows that out of 14 conditions listed, 6 result in disadvantage on your attack rolls (one of them is if your opponent is invisible).

That isn't even starting to delve into spells and special monster abilities. It's not hard.

Your incredulity is unwarranted.


Also Darkness is being replaced by SOM on level 7. And it is accuracte that you have advantage on every attack if you want. The only thing that can beat it is blindsight. True Seeing doesn't work on SOM and vs Tremor you have Fly.

I've been exclusively talking about Shadows of Moil since that's what you posted. But it applies equally to the Darkness spell (except Darkvision). Both spells just create darkness.

[Hael]

The Battlemaster should be using his dice on Precision Strike to turn misses into hits up to 5d6 + 25 + 50 extra damage (Weapondie +5DEX +10 is worth more than trying to hit AC20 with a new Attack at -5) 1-2 of those might still miss depending how close you want to cut it. Can't Riposte with a Crossbow.
Or GWF + GWM + PAM.

Yep correct about precision strike (I was using riposte to simplify the math) but regardless the conclusion remains the same. +- 20-30 damage doesn't change things (forgive me I don't want to do the exact math).

For GWF/GWM/PAM I have (for a paladin with Haste or a Battlemaster) fighter bonus 10 vs ac20.. 3 attacks at 1d10 + 5 and 1 of 1d4 + 5 = 31.4 dpr .

If you action surge: that gives 52.8 dpr on the first round, then 31.4 each successive rounds.
If you do the buffing round for the hexblade, he does zero turn one, then 62.16 turn two, 62.16 turn three... As I said before he is slightly ahead by turn three and then distances him on turn4 ... IF we're interested in non boss fights, the Hexblade doesn't use curse (and the fighter doesn't action surge), the Hexblades average dpr is still 47, about 50% higher.

Anyway as another poster correctly points out it's frequently better to not go HAM damage with darkness/SOM and instead use the extra spell slots for other things (synaptic/fear etc). But when a Gishes baseline is comparable or better than a dedicated martial, you know it's a pretty strong chassis.

Anyway, having said all of this. . I probably would still take a sword and board paladin as a main tank if that was the only martial present, simply b/c save auras are deeply OP and reduces an enormous amount of variance that would potentially team wipe (5e is all about removing unlikely events)

[RSP]

If you search on reddit 3d6 for sustained dpr, you'll find the spreadsheet with the numbers that I quoted.

How is needing to use Hexblades Curse and limited 2+ SR spell slots per batlle considered “sustained dpr”?



If the Hexblade is a halfdrow (which I was) then he has an additional spellslot that he can use for another smite (putting him well ahead).

How does the half drow have 20 Cha and 2 feats at level 14? Obviously this isn’t done using standard array.



I'm not going to include the extra 5 or 6 dpr from the Hexblade's minion... (im assuming one curse only on a one fight blow everything you got deal)

Again, not sure why you’re counting “a one fight blow everything you got” as sustained dpr.



You get the picture. The reason the numbers are so skewed is b/c of self-advantage. In practise...

In practice, Conc will be dropped by the AC 17 Hexblade quite regularly, even when they’re being attacked at disadvantage.

As you had, at best, a +2 Con mod, and used your ASIs on +2 Cha (for a 19 if using standard array), GWM and PAM (therefore no Resilient (Con) or Warcaster), your chances of passing even a minimum Conc check of DC 10 is only 60%. And that will usually be a check where you’re passing at less than 50%, with enemies a level 14 party should be fighting.

For example, a CR 9 Fire Giant (hardly a challenge), attacks with +11 to hit. So they need a 6 or better to hit the SoM Warlock. Granted, it’s at disadvantage, but each attack is still more likely to hit then not. And they get 2 attacks per round, doing ~28 damage per hit. So that’s possibly two rolls of DC 14 Con checks per round against what should be an easy opponent. You most likely will fail either of those rolls (40% chance to pass either; which my basic math skills equates to a 16% chance to pass both of hit twice - though I could be off).

This also doesn’t count either Counterspell or Dispel Magic, either of which will ruin your even favorable calculations.

And no ES or no SoM if doing 3 combats before a short rest, which statistically should happen about once a combat day or so.

Also, were you factoring in the BM at level 13, but the Hexblade at level 14?

[RSP]

Shadow of Moil spell says "Flame-like shadows wreathe your body until the spell ends, causing you to become heavily obscured to others. The shadows turn dim light within 10 feet of you into darkness, and bright light in the same area to dim light."

Darkvision overcomes it, since it's just shadows causing darkness

Not correct. It’s that the flame like shadows cause you to be heavily obscured - not that the caster is heavily obscured because it creates darkness.

If you care about Crawford’s tweets or RAI:

“Shadow of Moil heavily obscures you, full stop. The spell also dims the light around you.

The fact that you're heavily obscured is a result of the flame-like shadows surrounding you, not the result of being in darkness. This means you're heavily obscured even to darkvision. #DnD https://twitter.com/DerynDraconis/status/1083478620490948608 …”

[Mr Adventurer]

Not correct. It’s that the flame like shadows cause you to be heavily obscured - not that the caster is heavily obscured because it creates darkness.

If you care about Crawford’s tweets or RAI:

“Shadow of Moil heavily obscures you, full stop. The spell also dims the light around you.

The fact that you're heavily obscured is a result of the flame-like shadows surrounding you, not the result of being in darkness. This means you're heavily obscured even to darkvision. #DnD https://twitter.com/DerynDraconis/status/1083478620490948608 …”

Like many, I take tweets with a grain of salt - especially given they don't necessarily impart the specific RAI as-written.

In this case, it hardly matters, since most of what I wrote still applies.

[RSP]

Like many, I take tweets with a grain of salt - especially given they don't necessarily impart the specific RAI as-written.

In this case, it hardly matters, since most of what I wrote still applies.

What still applies? Darkvision, nor Truesight would see through SoM, as it heavily obscures without darkness or illusion.

I’m not saying SoM is a great spell, but it does heavily obscure the caster quite effectively.

[Mr Adventurer]

What still applies? Darkvision, nor Truesight would see through SoM, as it heavily obscures without darkness or illusion.

I’m not saying SoM is a great spell, but it does heavily obscure the caster quite effectively.

My position is that the obscurement does result from darkness. The text I quoted seems quite clear to me in that sense.

If others are not running with it in that way, that's fine.

[RSP]

My position is that the obscurement does result from darkness. The text I quoted seems quite clear to me in that sense.

If others are not running with it in that way, that's fine.

Fair enough, though the spell does say it’s heavy obscured, and doesn’t mention it being from lighting conditions.

Also, it’s fair to assume most others will play it as it provides HO that Darkvision doesn’t see through (as that’s what the spell says and it’s RAI).

[Mr Adventurer]

Fair enough, though the spell does say it’s heavy obscured, and doesn’t mention it being from lighting conditions.

Also, it’s fair to assume most others will play it as it provides HO that Darkvision doesn’t see through (as that’s what the spell says and it’s RAI).

Of course, although I don't agree that that's what the spell says.

[kbob]

Like many, I take tweets with a grain of salt - especially given they don't necessarily impart the specific RAI as-written.

I thought Crawford’s Tweets were considered rulings. I believe that he said his and only his were as he is the rules designer.

He said darkvision cannot see through SoM as it isn’t due to darkness but the shadows themselves. (Im guessing its implied then that they’re not like real shadows but something akin to the shadow realm or something necromancy like). He goes on to say though, that True Seeing would see through it.

I personally think SoM is one of the most powerful spells in all 5e especially for its level.
You get the mechanical advantage of greater invisibility (adv attack, dadv on being attacked, not targeted by spells that require seeing target). You also deal damage when someone does hit you in melee. And, not that it would come up often, but there is potential of using dim light/darkness radius to aid other party members around you. Oh and resistance to radiant damage. Almost forgot that one (but again doesn’t come up often as a PC).

[RSP]

Of course, although I don't agree that that's what the spell says.

They certainly could have been more explicit with their intent but using better words. Yes, usually “shadows”=dim light, which isn’t HO and would affect the caster just as much as anyone else. However, the spell explicitly states it does create HO, and that it only affects others in this way, and not the caster, so it’s not “shadows” as represented in the Dim Light description but something else.

[Mr Adventurer]

They certainly could have been more explicit with their intent but using better words. Yes, usually “shadows”=dim light, which isn’t HO and would affect the caster just as much as anyone else. However, the spell explicitly states it does create HO, and that it only affects others in this way, and not the caster, so it’s not “shadows” as represented in the Dim Light description but something else.

Shadows may or may not qualify as Dim Light. Sufficient shadows may qualify as any level of obscurement. I take it that the spell states it creates sufficient shadows for heavy obscurement.

Shadows, in common language, are a kind of darkness.

[RSP]

Shadows may or may not qualify as Dim Light. Sufficient shadows may qualify as any level of obscurement. I take it that the spell states it creates sufficient shadows for heavy obscurement.

Shadows, in common language, are a kind of darkness.

I was referring to this line from the PHB: “Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area.”

In this reference, shadows=dim light. In the SoM, it does not.

[Mr Adventurer]

I was referring to this line from the PHB: “Dim light, also called shadows, creates a lightly obscured area.”

In this reference, shadows=dim light. In the SoM, it does not.

Understandable. I wouldn't hold that shadows, as an entire category, ought to fall into the definition of Dim Light, myself. Squares and parallelograms and all that.

[Alucard89]

The SOM debate was cleared long time ago, there is no point in bringing that back here.

Flame- like Shadows makes caster heavy obscured. That's it. It's not illusion, it's not darkness or magical darkness (which are two seperate fenomenas in mechanic). It's physical obscurment. True seeing or Darkvision doesn not help with that at all, period. The things that truesigh penetrates are very clearly detailed:

"normal and magical darkness, see invisible creatures and objects, automatically detect visual illusions and succeed on saving throws against them, and perceives the original form of a shapechanger or a creature that is transformed by magic. Furthermore, the creature can see into the Ethereal Plane. "

Shadows from SOM are not: magical darkness or normal darkness (that second effect of the spell, not first one), it's not invisibility, it's not visual illusion (it's necromancy spell), it's not tranformation or shapechanging and it has nothing to do with Ethereal Plane.

The second effect of SOM is creating darkness (not magical darkness) which Darkvision or Truesight penetrates but only to see caster surrounded by flame-like shadows. Those magical flame-like shadows are some magical phenomena that does what it says- heavy obscure caster. That is all.

It's that simple.

Also few words from me about concentration checks, since I was playing Hexblade quite a lot:

If someone is afraid of his concentration save throws - I had good experice with it. In real gameplay if you play PAM Hexblade as you should - get in, get out etc. and try to back off behind your true front liners - you are motly fine. Also when you play in party there is usually quite a lot of things around - Hypnotic Pattern on enemies from your Wizard, Aura from your Paladin, Bless from your Cleric, Cutting Words from your Bard etc. My Druid was using Longstrider on me and our Sorcerer was Twinning Haste on my and Paladin, so I had 80 movement every turn with 10 feet reach without provoking OAs etc. In some encounters we had Fearie Fire going so I could go for other spell etc.

In real gameplay scenario concentration wasn't really that bad. Sure I had dropped my sometimes (mostly due to occasional AOE spells but those are not every encounter), but not really less than my Cleric or Sorcerer since they were getting hit much more often (Sorc due to low AC and Cleric due to being always at front line in the middle of enemies). I wasn't on front line (My Paladin and Cleric was there) and I was more of mobile grinder than anything else. I also avoided a lot of damage from spells that need to see target, which was very helpful.

So if you expect to be front liner with Hexblade - I suggest taking different class/build than that. But if you want to be striker attacking from second line (or even third with range build) Hexblade kills fast enough to be able to live with 16 CON really well for quite some time.

That was at least my experience. You can always start with 1 level of Sorcerer or Fighter for CON saves if you really want. Both dips have quite a lot of good stuff for Hexblade anyway.

[Hael]

How is needing to use Hexblades Curse and limited 2+ SR spell slots per batlle considered “sustained dpr”?
How does the half drow have 20 Cha and 2 feats at level 14? Obviously this isnÂ’t done using standard array.
Again, not sure why you’re counting “a one fight blow everything you got” as sustained dpr.
Also, were you factoring in the BM at level 13, but the Hexblade at level 14?

For all the dpr calculations, I was assuming a variant human build (PAM, two cha asis + GWM) at lvl 13 and ditto for the fighter (SS/Xbow Expert as the feats, 2 dex asis, and a feat/asi of his choice b/c there aren't any more obvious dpr boosters at this point), standard array.

In my campaign I never reached lvl 13, I played till lvl 10 with a half-drow. I had a pam/elven accuracy build at the time and was the offtank.. I don't know which is min-maxed, it doesn't matter, they all hit very hard.

DPR calculations in 5e are a little bit silly to be sure, b/c usually one of the fights per short rest is what I call clean up/resource burners. You don't really need to hit a kobold very hard to kill it, which is why the crappy ranger build can be just as effective as the minmaxed xbow fighter build for those. Your bard/wizard blows a cc spell, the healer blows a few heal spells to top everyone off, maybe a buff spell, and you're done.

Otoh DPR matters when it matters, and you're usually looking at the scenarios I was mentioning. Either swamped with enough adds to wipe the party (necessitating a big aoe), or you have a big nasty thing that takes multiple rounds of sustained firepower to kill (and there you're looking at blowing action surge, all the battledie, curse, voe, smites etc), so it makes sense to do it as I have. As I indicated, even in scenarios where you don't blow any resources other than the usual darkness opener, you're still doing ~50% higher sustained (and basically even if they take your darkness down).

In my experience there were multiple times where casting darkness (a 10 min duration) was long enough to successfully encompass two fights worth, and there were very few times where con saves put me in a truly bad spot (the one time I recall vividly was due to aoes repeatedly clipping me and making me lose all my slots which ended up hurting us).

As Alucard says, if you want to be the main tank, then you wouldn't build a char this way, nor would you build a paladin this way either. SC Hexblade is a good option for a party if you need reliable damage (both melee and ranged), some tankiness, good movement and strong but limited spell options. It pairs well with classes like Moon druids that have endless amounts of hitpoints and control. It also pairs really well with Paladins...

[RSP]

Otoh DPR matters when it matters, and you're usually looking at the scenarios I was mentioning.

My point is you said you were doing sustained dpr comparisons. Using limited resources in a “big fight, blow all your slots” is in no way sustained dpr. So saying that’s the Warlock’s sustained damage is incorrect. Nor is it fair to use a nova damage build to compare to an actual sustained damage build: its two different things.

Your experiences may be different, but the DMs I’ve played with don’t just allow characters to sit behind “tanks” with impunity, so Concentration checks are a more regular thing.