What is the correct Challenge Rating of an Allip?

[Gavinfoxx]

So I'm having trouble applying Vorpal Tribble's rule of thumbs to the Allip.

Can someone walk me through the math in a way that makes sense with the end result? I'm mostly hung up with the immunities. Has anyone re-CR'ed the Allip anywhere?

[Psyren]

I'm not sure what the rules of thumb are that you're referencing - but I would recommend using the PF Allip, which was toned down in several ways and so is more in line with CR 3 in my opinion. The 3.5 version is noteworthy for being much harder than a CR 3 would suggest.

[Biggus]

I've seen estimates of between 4 and 7 for the Allip's actual CR; 5 is the most common answer IIRC.

Tbh I'm not sure how well Vorpal Tribble's guidelines work for undead, as they get a ton of immunities but some of them are quite weak (the human commoner zombie for example).

In the case of the Allip, if you count "incorporeal traits" and "undead traits" as each being a single immunity, you get a CR of 5.26 according VT's formula, which is in the right ballpark. If you try to count all the aspects of the traits individually it comes out at something like CR13, which is clearly far too high (even a human commoner Zombie comes out at about CR10 if you do that).

VT's formula works very well for some creatures and very badly for others; it's only a guideline.

[Fizban]

Wraiths are CR 5 and deal con drain on a failed save. Allips deal wis drain, d4 instead of d6, but with no save- and instead have an aura with a higher save vs being hypnotized for several rounds. Allips are slower and have slightly fewer hit points, but have no Daylight Powerlessness, they have no Combat Reflexes or Blind-Fight, but also no Unnatural Aura warning (hearing the babble may just mean you're already in range).

Minimum rational CR is 5 if you ask me. Depending on how well you expect utilization of the Wraith's tactical options and weaknesses, possibly 6, or maybe as low as 4 if you assume more perfect DM use than I think the game actually expects.

[Mike Miller]

The Allip is somewhat of a specialized encounter. It can depend heavily on the party. If you have a sorcerer with magic missile and a wizard with one prepped MM, that Allip is going down fast with level 3 PCs. However, if no one has ghost touch (likely not at level 3) and no force magic, it will be much harder to fight.

I generally look at the party vs the creature when I prep combats. I look at CR as a useful pool of critters and begin my search at approximately the levels of the party. However, CR is not a definitive guide.