Does switching gods hurt your spell casting as a cleric?

[eyebreaker7]

If I'm a drow and I worship Lolth and I'm a 5th level cleric but later give up worshiping Lolth and pick a different deity, will it effect my current cleric spell casting? Will I "lose" those spell levels? I don't think so but I'm not sure. And will it matter if I change class also?

[Doctor Despair]

The rebuilding rules in the PHB II discuss how a cleric might change deities. Iirc it entirely depends on your DM making up a huge quest to allow you to do so, but check in there for details.

[eyebreaker7]

Ah hah! Found it. Page 193 gives the requirements your talking about. I never look in the PH2. Thanks!

[Psyren]

The Atonement spell in core can also be used for this. It's not required, but it's there in case your GM feels that "I worship X now" is too easy.

[Gavinfoxx]

You'll become a fallen cleric and not have any casting or other divine powers unless you do the appropriate quest to rebuild your character per the PHB II rules.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by eyebreaker7
Page 193 gives the requirements....

The rules seem a little overboard for something that could be accomplished with good roleplaying. If someone is going through a personal crisis, the struggle is mainly internal, and working all the way through that should be evidence enough of devotion to the new deity.

Beyond that, I would think that the new deity would be glad to have a new adherent, and wouldn't hesitate to grant spells and domain abilities. New converts tend to be on fire with their zeal, and there's no sense not putting that to work as a full-fledged cleric as soon as possible.

[Gavinfoxx]

The rules seem a little overboard for something that could be accomplished with good roleplaying. If someone is going through a personal crisis, the struggle is mainly internal, and working all the way through that should be evidence enough of devotion to the new deity.

Beyond that, I would think that the new deity would be glad to have a new adherent, and wouldn't hesitate to grant spells and domain abilities. New converts tend to be on fire with their zeal, and there's no sense not putting that to work as a full-fledged cleric as soon as possible.

Point of order, since when has the behavior of Outsiders in a D&D setting been shown to be sane and reasonable?

[Doctor Despair]

Point of order, since when has the behavior of Outsiders in a D&D setting been shown to be sane and reasonable?

"So you're telling me that you devoted your life to that deity, your very soul, and now you wanna worship me? Why would I want such a disloyal troglodyte?"

Hence why there are steeper requirements to earn the new god's favor.

[Nifft]

I feel like the God of One Eternal Loyalty might not accept you as a new convert, but on the other hand the God of Changing Your Mind might let you have a go.


On the other hand, restricting a Cleric to a single god is very weird in a world with lots of gods which are all known to be real. Pantheonic worship seems a lot more sensible, and "switching god" might be nothing more serious than having a different favorite amongst the pantheon to which you pray.

It might have mechanical meaning, like you might gain favor with a different pantheon-member over time, but the switch itself wouldn't necessarily be a betrayal. Your former favorite would still get a portion of your pantheonic prayers.

[Palanan]

I'm just coming at it from the perspective of gods competing for worshipers. If someone wants to switch to you, why would you make that more difficult? The decision to make a break from the previous god would be momentous enough, no need to pile on any additional burdens.

Now, if a particular cleric bounces from god to god to god, I could see him getting a rep in the celestial realms. "Is that Father Francis? Yeah, godhopping again." In those cases I could see a god behaving a little more sternly and requiring a steeper standard of devotion.

But for a one-time switch, I'd say the new god would be happy to welcome a new worshiper. Maybe a 24-hour vigil to commune deeply and establish the connection.

[Psyren]

I feel like the God of One Eternal Loyalty might not accept you as a new convert, but on the other hand the God of Changing Your Mind might let you have a go.


On the other hand, restricting a Cleric to a single god is very weird in a world with lots of gods which are all known to be real. Pantheonic worship seems a lot more sensible, and "switching god" might be nothing more serious than having a different favorite amongst the pantheon to which you pray.

It might have mechanical meaning, like you might gain favor with a different pantheon-member over time, but the switch itself wouldn't necessarily be a betrayal. Your former favorite would still get a portion of your pantheonic prayers.

Yeah, I'd prefer to reward someone for the mechanically suboptimal choice of venerating a single patron, than I would punishing them for the more flexible approach of signing up for a whole pantheon. As you mentioned, swapping between members of a pantheon would be as easy as choosing which vestment you want to wear that morning, whereas someone who goes with a single patron would have a harder time changing that selection.

Pathfinder's Obedience feats are close to what I would want - but as with so many other cool things in Pathfinder, they are gated behind multiple feats that could stand to be consolidated, if not eliminated.


I'm just coming at it from the perspective of gods competing for worshipers. If someone wants to switch to you, why would you make that more difficult? The decision to make a break from the previous god would be momentous enough, no need to pile on any additional burdens.

Now, if a particular cleric bounces from god to god to god, I could see him getting a rep in the celestial realms. "Is that Father Francis? Yeah, godhopping again." In those cases I could see a god behaving a little more sternly and requiring a steeper standard of devotion.

But for a one-time switch, I'd say the new god would be happy to welcome a new worshiper. Maybe a 24-hour vigil to commune deeply and establish the connection.

It can be exactly that easy if you want it to be, especially if the source and destination deity are not diametrically opposed in alignment. Putting a process around it is designed to help GMs who don't have ideas on how to handle that ask, not to stymie those who do.

[Saintheart]

"So you're telling me that you devoted your life to that deity, your very soul, and now you wanna worship me? Why would I want such a disloyal troglodyte?"

"Because you need to level up to Divine Rank 5, and only need 1 more follower to pick up the retirement home in Celestia?"

It depends on whether the Gods Need Prayer Badly (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly) trope is in effect. Good old Ao himself put that rule in effect for the Faerunian slobs from around the Time of Troubles. If so, then it might be that gods will happily poach and pick up other followers at the drop of a hat since it makes them more powerful and depowers their rivals.

[Telonius]

It would depend on the deity, at least somewhat. I'd think that (for example) somebody like Olidammara would be extremely happy to steal a Cleric away from another deity. Boccob probably wouldn't care either way. A god of Treachery would probably get you bonus points if you defected.

[FaerieGodfather]

On the other hand, restricting a Cleric to a single god is very weird in a world with lots of gods which are all known to be real. Pantheonic worship seems a lot more sensible, and "switching god" might be nothing more serious than having a different favorite amongst the pantheon to which you pray.

It might have mechanical meaning, like you might gain favor with a different pantheon-member over time, but the switch itself wouldn't necessarily be a betrayal. Your former favorite would still get a portion of your pantheonic prayers.

This, so much this. This is one of those things that people insist don't make sense because they're incompatible with longstanding D&D assumptions that make even less sense. This is one of the bugbears that keeps me awake at night.

[Zanos]

"Because you need to level up to Divine Rank 5, and only need 1 more follower to pick up the retirement home in Celestia?"

It depends on whether the Gods Need Prayer Badly (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GodsNeedPrayerBadly) trope is in effect. Good old Ao himself put that rule in effect for the Faerunian slobs from around the Time of Troubles. If so, then it might be that gods will happily poach and pick up other followers at the drop of a hat since it makes them more powerful and depowers their rivals.
Even if it isn't, a cleric is a direct agent of that deity in the mortal realm. So even if gods don't need prayer to maintain their powers, they do need clerics to maintain their influence. There are many gods that should be very interested in ensuring Lloth is deprived access to a cleric, particularly a high level one.

[Eldan]

Personally, I would be hesitant to just allow it as a DM. Because from the perspective of the god, they'd be taking on a cleric who has already proven they aren't perfectly loyal to their god. Many gods wouldn't like that in a cleric.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Eldan
Personally, I would be hesitant to just allow it as a DM. Because from the perspective of the god, they'd be taking on a cleric who has already proven they aren't perfectly loyal to their god. Many gods wouldn't like that in a cleric.

It really depends on the situation, which is why I think roleplaying is important here. If someone has been slowly realizing that they're not in the right faith--perhaps pushed into the church by family expectations, or some other reason--then it could be a real struggle to work out where their devotion really belongs. What seems like disloyalty to one god could look like a genuine spiritual awakening to another.

If it's being done for selfish reasons in-character, or purely mechanical reasons by a player, then yes, there should be some additional hurdles, especially in the case of a player who's just cherry-picking isolated class features without much regard for consistency. But if the RP is done well it's a major character arc in its own right.

[Buufreak]

I know that seeing beyond the void of existence and realizing that gods are just another piece of the puzzle, and thus gaining spells from the universe itself... costs 2 caster levels. Not the biggest deal, all things considered.

[Ashtagon]

It depends on the metaphysics of your setting too. If it costs a deity a certain amount of divine energy to create the link that empowers a cleric, they're going to think twice if that cleric has demonstrable loyalty issues. If it's possible to a pantheon to collectively empower a cleric, then they might think nothing of a cleric switching between members of the panethon, but would be highly suspicious of clerics who try to switch between pantheons.