Need help building most powerful low level druid summoner!

[Max Caysey]

Hi guys and girls...

So our old DM, from like 20 years go wants to start up a new game. He's giving us pretty free reins, so I wanted to perhaps look into a druid summoner. Its going to be in Faerun, so I was thinking Greenbound Summoning. However, I really don't know much about summoning in general or how to optimize it.

We apparently start somewhere between 3 and 5. I don't know how far we will get but probably no more than level 15, so I need a build which comes online fairly quickly. I assume all official published material is in use.

For my feats I have thought of: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning and Greenbound Summoning.

Race: Either human or Wood Elf

So, how do I build an effective summoner?

Cheers!

[Mike Miller]

Have you seen eggynack's druid guide? Also, I know you said it is in Faerun, but can you use Eberron material? Planar Sheperd is a nice druid PrC if you can swing it.

[NotASpiderSwarm]

There's a couple keys with summoning:
First off, prepare in advance. I'd honestly make an Excel sheet where you can input a monster's stats and get your buffed version out. Then print a copy out for every single SNA monster you can find, including obscure splats. Your turns are already going to take longer than any other player, don't make it worse by needing to do math every time you roll to-hit(or worse, check a book).
Second, be flexible. SNA summons a wide variety of animals. Look at movement speeds, special vision modes, etc. Every single animal has things it does best that you can't find anywhere else, and knowing that can be the difference between a shark watching your enemies get away vs an octopus following them onto land and grappling them.

Now, actual specific advice:
The spells take a full round to cast. That's awful and leaves you very open to attack. Max Conc and have your animal companion ready an action to defend you, at the very minimum. If you get hit hard enough, you just wasted a spell slot and a round. (If you can find an ACF or feat to let you cast it as a Standard, do that, but those are pretty rare)
Learn the lower-level lists and use them. There's plenty of problems that can be solved easier by 3 animals than 1, or you could even just use SNA 1 on occasion if there's no need for anything bigger than a wolf.
Consider Extend Spell. 3 rounds is NOT much time, and even at +1, it might be worth it on occasion. (If you can snag Ashbound from Eberron, that is Extend Spell for free with an added attack boost, so do that)
Ignore AC on your monsters. They are disposable sacks of hitpoints. If your summoned bear dies, GOOD. That means the enemy spent a lot of time attacking it, which means they weren't attacking you. AC adds nothing to the benefit of casting the spell.
As you learn what you can do, so will your DM. Expect Dispel Magic, anti-plant enemies, AOE spellcasters, etc. Again, this means your monsters are doing their job. That said, try to spot ahead of time how you will be countered and react in-turn. Especially expect a lot of anti-plant opponents fairly early on.
You don't have to use Greenbound Summoning. It's broken, sure, but so are animal-specific buff spells that you can also cast on yourself/your companion. Pick the right tool for the job.
On that note, you are a full-caster, not a summoner. Yes, you're spec'd into summoning, but if Call Lightning will solve a problem, cast Call Lightning, don't try to find a way to generate electricity using a leopard and a cold elemental.
Don't forget your elementals. At low-levels they're not good, but Air/Water as a vortex is a hilarious way to end the fight with any enemy smaller than them.
You control where your summons appear. Directly behind an enemy to flank with the rogue, next to an enemy spellcaster, even atop enemy fortress walls with orders to climb down and raise the portcullis(Monkeys have hands, which makes them invaluable). Summons significantly increase your tactical options, make use of that.
Again, I can't stress this enough: You have 3 characters to control, MINIMUM. Prepare. When other players are acting, be planning. You shouldn't have to think when your turn comes up, because you're going to take longer than the players who do have to stop and think anyway.

As for what specifically you should be summoning: Depends on the situation. Sorry. One of the keys is that you get flexibility from the spell, not the animal. An animal with 3 movement modes that are all average is worse than 3 animals, each of which excels at their one thing. You want your Animal Companion to be good in every fight, you want your summon to solve this one, specific problem. Big beatsticks like Bears and Rhinos are always great, and the cats are cats(although pounce is less useful when you can just spawn your pet in full-attack range of the enemy to start with), but you have to actually look at each spell level to find the most dangerous option at that level. That said, HP damage is not the only way to solve problems. Look at the situation, and look at your list. Something on there can handle the problem, not just the enemy.

If you can get Eberron material allowed, Shifter Druids and the Moonspeaker PrC are definitely worth a look(and Ashbound is excellent). If not, don't worry about it, summoner druids don't really need the help.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Go with a Strongheart Halfling (FRCS) which gets a bonus feat instead of the standard +1 to all saving throws. If possible combine that with Water Halfling (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) for +2 Con and a swim speed.

Take two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to have two extra feats starting out.

You've already found Greenbound Summoning which is the best summoning feat in the game. You'll also want Ashbound (ECS) which doubles the duration of your summoned creatures and gives them an extra +3 to hit. As a Druid you'll also want Natural Bond (CV) so at level 4 you can get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or Dire Eagle (RoS) as your animal companion and still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning are still good if you have room for them. Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) can be used to cast higher-level summon nature's ally spells. Invisible Spell (CS) will give your summoned creatures permanent invisibility, though you would want to prepare your summoning spells with that as it would take an extra round to cast them spontaneously with metamagic. Future feats should include Natural Spell and Summon Elemental (CM), and probably Multiattack for wild shape forms.

Items to consider include Lesser Rods of Extend, a Ring of the Beast (CC), a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp (MIC), and a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed, which is only 9,000 gp per the 3.5 DMG.

[Biggus]

Greenbound Summoning is one of the most frequently banned/nerfed feats in 3.5 (its designer said he designed it as a +2 level metamagic feat but for some reason it didn't appear in print like that) so it's probably worth checking with the DM before building a character around it.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

What Biffoniacus said.
Plus here’s a link to a compilation of all SNA and Summon Monster targets, the fourth post has creatures organized by their SLAs, super handy. Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List)

In general, pure combat choices are usually bears or cats at low level (although Wolves have improved trip); Unicorns (and later Devas) are handy for emergency healing. Other than that it’s really just utility of the moment, one of my favorite low level summons is the Thoqqua, basically a lava worm from the elemental plane of fire. Only monster in Core books that can burrow through solid rock, MM specifically says it leaves a tunnel behind.

Edit: just realized that’s only summon monsters in that link, looking for the SNA bookmark, I’ll post when I find it
Edit2:thought I had an SNA specific, but here’s the Summoning-Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook) it has sections on SNA

[Blackhawk748]

You may want to take a look at Half Orc Druid. It gets Augment Summons for free and a better HD and Intimidate.

It's pretty solid

[MicHag]

As a Druid you'll also want Natural Bond (CV) so at level 4 you can get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or Dire Eagle (RoS) as your animal companion and still count your full Druid level toward its benefits.

Is this even considered RAW?

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

Natural Bond adds 3 to your effective Druid level for purposes of determining Animal Companion bonuses. Fleshraker adds itself to Animal Companion options (MM3 pg 41), but says it is a -3 on the Animal Companion table. Haven’t checked it this second, but I believe Dire Eagle says the same.
So at lvl4 you can have either animal companion by RAW, Natural Bond just boosts your effective Druid level back to your actual Druid level for determining bonuses.

[Max Caysey]

Have you seen eggynack's druid guide? Also, I know you said it is in Faerun, but can you use Eberron material? Planar Sheperd is a nice druid PrC if you can swing it.

I have not... Ill check those PrCs out!


There's a couple keys with summoning:
First off, prepare in advance. I'd honestly make an Excel sheet where you can input a monster's stats and get your buffed version out. Then print a copy out for every single SNA monster you can find, including obscure splats. Your turns are already going to take longer than any other player, don't make it worse by needing to do math every time you roll to-hit(or worse, check a book).
Second, be flexible. SNA summons a wide variety of animals. Look at movement speeds, special vision modes, etc. Every single animal has things it does best that you can't find anywhere else, and knowing that can be the difference between a shark watching your enemies get away vs an octopus following them onto land and grappling them.

Now, actual specific advice:
The spells take a full round to cast. That's awful and leaves you very open to attack. Max Conc and have your animal companion ready an action to defend you, at the very minimum. If you get hit hard enough, you just wasted a spell slot and a round. (If you can find an ACF or feat to let you cast it as a Standard, do that, but those are pretty rare)
Learn the lower-level lists and use them. There's plenty of problems that can be solved easier by 3 animals than 1, or you could even just use SNA 1 on occasion if there's no need for anything bigger than a wolf.
Consider Extend Spell. 3 rounds is NOT much time, and even at +1, it might be worth it on occasion. (If you can snag Ashbound from Eberron, that is Extend Spell for free with an added attack boost, so do that)
Ignore AC on your monsters. They are disposable sacks of hitpoints. If your summoned bear dies, GOOD. That means the enemy spent a lot of time attacking it, which means they weren't attacking you. AC adds nothing to the benefit of casting the spell.
As you learn what you can do, so will your DM. Expect Dispel Magic, anti-plant enemies, AOE spellcasters, etc. Again, this means your monsters are doing their job. That said, try to spot ahead of time how you will be countered and react in-turn. Especially expect a lot of anti-plant opponents fairly early on.
You don't have to use Greenbound Summoning. It's broken, sure, but so are animal-specific buff spells that you can also cast on yourself/your companion. Pick the right tool for the job.
On that note, you are a full-caster, not a summoner. Yes, you're spec'd into summoning, but if Call Lightning will solve a problem, cast Call Lightning, don't try to find a way to generate electricity using a leopard and a cold elemental.
Don't forget your elementals. At low-levels they're not good, but Air/Water as a vortex is a hilarious way to end the fight with any enemy smaller than them.
You control where your summons appear. Directly behind an enemy to flank with the rogue, next to an enemy spellcaster, even atop enemy fortress walls with orders to climb down and raise the portcullis(Monkeys have hands, which makes them invaluable). Summons significantly increase your tactical options, make use of that.
Again, I can't stress this enough: You have 3 characters to control, MINIMUM. Prepare. When other players are acting, be planning. You shouldn't have to think when your turn comes up, because you're going to take longer than the players who do have to stop and think anyway.

As for what specifically you should be summoning: Depends on the situation. Sorry. One of the keys is that you get flexibility from the spell, not the animal. An animal with 3 movement modes that are all average is worse than 3 animals, each of which excels at their one thing. You want your Animal Companion to be good in every fight, you want your summon to solve this one, specific problem. Big beatsticks like Bears and Rhinos are always great, and the cats are cats(although pounce is less useful when you can just spawn your pet in full-attack range of the enemy to start with), but you have to actually look at each spell level to find the most dangerous option at that level. That said, HP damage is not the only way to solve problems. Look at the situation, and look at your list. Something on there can handle the problem, not just the enemy.

If you can get Eberron material allowed, Shifter Druids and the Moonspeaker PrC are definitely worth a look(and Ashbound is excellent). If not, don't worry about it, summoner druids don't really need the help.

Indeed... I always do the math on creatures in advance. And thanks for the advise.


Go with a Strongheart Halfling (FRCS) which gets a bonus feat instead of the standard +1 to all saving throws. If possible combine that with Water Halfling (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater) for +2 Con and a swim speed.

Take two flaws (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm) (more here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30)) to have two extra feats starting out.

You've already found Greenbound Summoning which is the best summoning feat in the game. You'll also want Ashbound (ECS) which doubles the duration of your summoned creatures and gives them an extra +3 to hit. As a Druid you'll also want Natural Bond (CV) so at level 4 you can get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or Dire Eagle (RoS) as your animal companion and still count your full Druid level toward its benefits. Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning are still good if you have room for them. Versatile Spellcaster (RotD) can be used to cast higher-level summon nature's ally spells. Invisible Spell (CS) will give your summoned creatures permanent invisibility, though you would want to prepare your summoning spells with that as it would take an extra round to cast them spontaneously with metamagic. Future feats should include Natural Spell and Summon Elemental (CM), and probably Multiattack for wild shape forms.

Items to consider include Lesser Rods of Extend, a Ring of the Beast (CC), a Monk's Belt with a Wilding Clasp (MIC), and a standard Strand of Prayer Beads which has had the Bead of Smiting removed, which is only 9,000 gp per the 3.5 DMG.

Cheers, great advice!


Greenbound Summoning is one of the most frequently banned/nerfed feats in 3.5 (its designer said he designed it as a +2 level metamagic feat but for some reason it didn't appear in print like that) so it's probably worth checking with the DM before building a character around it.

Naturally I'll be doing that... The few things my DM has said so far is simple that we get to play what we want... how that will be practically implemented I don't know tho.


What Biffoniacus said.
Plus here’s a link to a compilation of all SNA and Summon Monster targets, the fourth post has creatures organized by their SLAs, super handy. Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?444042-Legal-3-5-Summonable-Monster-List)

In general, pure combat choices are usually bears or cats at low level (although Wolves have improved trip); Unicorns (and later Devas) are handy for emergency healing. Other than that it’s really just utility of the moment, one of my favorite low level summons is the Thoqqua, basically a lava worm from the elemental plane of fire. Only monster in Core books that can burrow through solid rock, MM specifically says it leaves a tunnel behind.

Edit: just realized that’s only summon monsters in that link, looking for the SNA bookmark, I’ll post when I find it
Edit2:thought I had an SNA specific, but here’s the Summoning-Handbook (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?527203-Summoning-Handbook) it has sections on SNA

Sweet thanks!

So far this is justs build ideas... I haven't shown my DM any specific build ideas yet, so I can't say if he'll allow Greenbound. I however don't think I'll be playing a druid summoner without... but we'll see how it goes!

Thanks for all the help. Please don't hesitate to add more.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As a Druid you'll also want Natural Bond (CV) so at level 4 you can get a Fleshraker dinosaur (MM3) or Dire Eagle (RoS) as your animal companion and still count your full Druid level toward its benefits.

Is this even considered RAW?

Yes, it is. You're allowed to apply your own effects in the most beneficial order. The 'level -3' of a stronger animal companion is your own effect, as is your Natural Bond feat. So you apply the 'level -3' first, then Natural Bond afterward, and your total effective druid level for the companion's benefits doesn't exceed your Druid level. You're not needing to split up one effect into multiple parts to accomplish that, so it's 100% legit.

[DwarvenWarCorgi]

A note on Planar Shepard. Planar Shepard is broken. Like ridiculously powerful, many DMs ban it outright, or at least ban attunement to the 2 planes that let you slow down time in a bubble around you.

Lion of Talisid (BoED) is the only other Druid PrC that is an improvement over straight Druid (unless you want to get into alternate Wild Shapes like aberrations, undead or swarms), but Lion does slow Wild Shape progression by 2 levels.

[Gorthawar]

You might not need it due to the power of greenbound summoning but the conjure ice beast spells can be quite interesting as well. Chose any monster that can be summoned with Summon Natural Ally and Summon Monster and add the ice beast template on top. Especially at lower levels where the HP bonus for the construct outweighs the loss of the constitution score.