more uses for Hit Dice

[Osuniev]

I'm trying to find some cool, not too complicated uses for Hit Dice. Minor Houserules, not a redesigning of the game.

My reasoning is : Hit Dice represents the "tiredness" of your character, in a more granular fashion than exhaustion. Yet they don't matter that much (even though I play with the Gritty Realism Variant, it's not often my players feel like "I should be careful, I'm running low on Hit Dice").

1. "Restore spells using Hit Dice" (playtested)

In my new campaign, Spellcasters are obsessed with finding a way to get back their Spell Slots, because we play GR and we didn't in the previous campaign. Overall, I'm really happy with the mechanical effects (the fighter can shine again, diplomatic skills matter much more now that Detect Thoughts, Charm Person or Circle of Truth have a meaningful cost, to a lesser degree it's also true of other utility spells : they are still very useful, but because they have a real cost, they don't take priority over smart use of objects and skills).

I had them find "mana potions" which convert hit dice to spell slots over a short rest. (1 HD for a lvl 1 slot, 2 for a lvl 2, etc...) and it created cool moments where they had to choose how to spread them. It also provides a nice gold sink for players who don't care about having a castle and don't need armor since they lay spellcasters.

2. Hit Dice to fight exhaustion. (not playtested)
I love exhaustion as a mechanic, but it is really punishing on players. I am considering allowing the use of a Hit Die on Exhaustion Checks (because of sleep or water deprivation, ), either to add to the d20 or a a substitute (allowing for several Hit Dice being spent).

3. Hit Dice used on Death Saves (not playtested)
Instead of rolling a d20 for your death saves, you'd roll as many as you'd like of your HD. Meaning a character that has no HD left would auto fail.

4. Hit Dice to survive excess damage (not playtested)
When you go below 0 HP, you'll need to spend hit dice until their total equals or exceed the leftover damage. This rule can replace the rule for negative max Hp elegantly : on average, all your HD equals your HP, so if you haven't used any it's equivalent, and it makes excess damage have a cost : the more you take, the more HD you lose, and if you don't have enough... you die.

5. Hit Dice to get back up. (not playtested)
Whenever you receive magical healing whilst at 0 HP, you'd use Hit Dice (not d8s for Cure Wounds or d4 for Healing Word) to calculate how much HP you get back. Alternatively, you can go in negative HP, and so you need those hit dice to have a chance to go over 0.

6. Hit Dice for extra effort (not playtested)
On a Strength or Constitution Check, you could spend Hit Dice to increase your roll, basically putting all your energy to be more efficient, but at the cost of some of your long term recuperation.

7. Lose Hit Dice whilst unconscious (playtested)
Every time you go to 0 HP, you lose one HD. Every time you fail a Death Save, too.

8. Poison costs Hit Dice
When your character takes poison damage, s.he also loses 1 HD. When you're character is poisoned, s.he cannot use Hit DIce during Short Rests.

I welcome criticisms, I'm only playing with rule number 1 at the moment because I'm not confident of the others being balanced/interesting enough to justify the extra complexity.

[firelistener]

Some of these would probably just resilt in players being even stingier with their hit dice. 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, and 8 all seem to punish players for running out of hit dice, so you'd probably notice everyone just stop using them for healing at all.

1 sounds like a neat idea. Personally, I'm not a fan because it means casters have way more potential for big nova damage between long rests, but it could still be really fun for everyone if you build encounters around that.

4 sounds cool, and I really like the concept as a narrative element. However, I think you'd realistically see players just burning through hit dice on checks every time they plan to go take a long rest. If your main goal is just to encourage spending hit dice though, I think it will work.

[Segev]

I like the notion of consumables that give alternate uses for hit dice.

[Vogie]

I love the idea of getting back up via hit die - However, it definitely overpowers the existing "Healing Word Yo-yo" style of game we have.

I like the ability to use consumables to augment hit die - However, you could rejigger health potions to act like the Healing Surge variant, or introduce a new style of health potion that gives 2HD +2 healing rather than the Xd4+X system we have currently.

I'm interested in the idea of "mana potions" that allow hit die to be converted to spell slots. I currently use the UA Variant that allows Paladins & Clerics to use their Channel Divinity to recharge a 1st level spell slot, and they seem to really like that. I'd already been thinking allowing non-land Druids to use their Wild Shape for the same ability, and allow Bards to eventually hunt down and learn a Song of Recovery that allows them to do something similar.

[Segev]

It might only come up rarely, but maybe you could spend Hit Dice if you take enough damage to otherwise outright kill you; the hit dice are rolled as normal when restoring hp, but instead increase the threshold number of hp below 0 you can survive on a hit.

So if you have 14 hp and are hit for 30 damage, you could roll a hit die (d8) and add your Con mod (+1) and, if you roll at least a 3 total, you don't die outright, instead are at 0 and dying as normal.

[Osuniev]

It might only come up rarely, but maybe you could spend Hit Dice if you take enough damage to otherwise outright kill you; the hit dice are rolled as normal when restoring hp, but instead increase the threshold number of hp below 0 you can survive on a hit.

So if you have 14 hp and are hit for 30 damage, you could roll a hit die (d8) and add your Con mod (+1) and, if you roll at least a 3 total, you don't die outright, instead are at 0 and dying as normal.

<yeah, that's similar to proposition number 4.

[Osuniev]

I love the idea of getting back up via hit die - However, it definitely overpowers the existing "Healing Word Yo-yo" style of game we have.


I'm not so sure. Yes, from time to time, a lucky roll of hit die would allow a Barbarian to get enough HP to survive the next attack, when a d4 wouldn't have... Most of the time, he would get just enough HP to go down on the next attack, like he does now. If your opponent deals 10 damage, being at 4 or 10 HP makes no difference.

But on the other hand, EVERY time the Barbarian goes down, he loses a resource. And if he runs out of Hit Die, he can only be stabilized, meaning this "yo-yo" is now less attractive.

(Anyway, at my table the Healing Word needs to be heard, ie the target must be conscious and not-deafened, so it won't get you back up).

[Stealthscout]

How about spending dice to travel faster or over varied terrain? Makes sense that a deep jungle could cost you some stamina to get through and why NPCs avoid it as they would be slowly weakened to the point they succumb to something mundane.

I also like the idea of a potion that let's you use HD as though you had a one-round short rest. Sudden recovery, long term cost, more useful to pcs than npcs.

[EnnPeeCee]

I’ve considered letting players use hit dice to recharge magic items that have limited per day uses. Never got around to actually implementing it, so not sure how balanced it would be, but it seemed like an interesting extra use for hit dice.

[Zhorn]

After reading this, I may introduce a mechanic into my gritty healing house rules (tldr version: no full heal from long rests, short rests are 1 Hit Die limit)

new inspired addition: once per long rest, you can expend a Hit Die to attempt to clear a level of exhaustion. Roll the Hit Die; if the result is higher than your total exhaustion level , your exhaustion is reduced by 1.

[Osuniev]

new inspired addition: once per long rest, you can expend a Hit Die to attempt to clear a level of exhaustion. Roll the Hit Die; if the result is higher than your total exhaustion level , your exhaustion is reduced by 1.

How high are your exhaustion levels ?? Even for a wizard or sorcerer, 1d6+CON should be higher than their levels of exhaustion almost all the time, no ?

[Zhorn]

How high are your exhaustion levels ?? Even for a wizard or sorcerer, 1d6+CON should be higher than their levels of exhaustion almost all the time, no ?

No +con, just a raw dice. These grittier healing house rules are meant as a hard-mode. This would be the exhaustion recovery method, so no guaranteed -1 exhaustion on a long rest.

[Contrast]

I sometimes feel like I'm playing a different game to other people.

I quite often see comments where people say they never short rest or can't remember ever using hit die. In the games I've generally played in hit dice are a valuable and (with the nerfing of Healing Spirit) main source of healing for most players. Introducing hit die for things other than healing isn't something I'd realistically consider simply because players already treat hit die as a valuable resource to be carefully shepherded and spread out. Characters running out of hit die is one of the main signs in our campaign that we need to be thinking about retreating or trying to figure out how our next steps will lead us to a long rest.

I think the only one I would consider would be intermeshing the exhaustion mechanic but thats simply because I dislike how the current exhaustion mechanic works. I could totally get on board for a system which replaces the existing exhaustion mechanic where instead you lose a number of hit die based on the how exhausting a task was and if you have no hit die remaining instead suffer some sort of debuff until such time as you finish a long rest. That's not ideal either though as I'd prefer exhaustion to hit characters like wizards more frequently than tougher classes like fighters (one of my gripes with the current exhaustion system being its much worse for martials than spellcasters generally speaking when it feels like martials should be the ones trudging along unaffected while the wizard struggles).

Perhaps some sort of system whereby when exhaustion makes you spend a hit die you roll it and subtract the value from some number (say 12 for the sake of argument) and the remaining points add to some exhaustion tally with effects when you reach certain levels? That might be too fiddly and the levels and effects would need to be carefully thought out - maybe three tiers with -d4 to attack rolls, ability checks and saving throws but the player gets to choose which one? The penalty doesn't have to be as severe as you're also being punished by having to spend hit die. It could wrap round up to d6, d8 etc if more tiers were needed I suppose :smallconfused:

[GlenSmash!]

Thematically I like the idea of some magic items requiring the spending hit dice to use their wondrous abilities.

[N810]

3,5,7,8 Seem pretty brutal, especial if you used all of them at once.

The rest seem reasonable, although I would be warry about taking more than 2 at once.
1 & 6 seem like the most interesting options.

[Mr Adventurer]

To partly sidestep yo-yoing, I've been toying with a house rule where when you hit 0, you don't fall unconscious - instead you enter a state that's similar to "staggered" from 3.5e. You drop prone, and then some kind of restrictions on what you can do while at 0, only crawl movement and no multiattacks or bonus actions or something. Maybe Hit Dice could be spent to activate, or recover from, this state; or to take actions that this state normally restricts you from, or something.

[Vogie]

To partly sidestep yo-yoing, I've been toying with a house rule where when you hit 0, you don't fall unconscious - instead you enter a state that's similar to "staggered" from 3.5e. You drop prone, and then some kind of restrictions on what you can do while at 0, only crawl movement and no multiattacks or bonus actions or something. Maybe Hit Dice could be spent to activate, or recover from, this state; or to take actions that this state normally restricts you from, or something.

I've done something similar. Instead of getting 3 saving throws that are binary, you get up to 6, corresponding to the 6 levels of Exhaustion. That simultaneously helps the low- or no-healing party (which I have), while also giving weight to the yo-yo effects.

[Mr Adventurer]

I've done something similar. Instead of getting 3 saving throws that are binary, you get up to 6, corresponding to the 6 levels of Exhaustion. That simultaneously helps the low- or no-healing party (which I have), while also giving weight to the yo-yo effects.

Oh hey, that's much more elegant and integrated. Do you have rules about removing exhaustion levels?

[Osuniev]

Oh hey, that's much more elegant and integrated. Do you have rules about removing exhaustion levels?

My houserule is failed Death Saves turn into exhaustion points, but only after the fight is over, when the rush of adrenaline stops (to prevent a death spiral where the more you lose... the more you lose).

Since 6 exhaustion points mean Death, it works well to make falling to 0 HP matter. And it often means my PCs will choose to fall back after a difficult fight and flee the dungeon or fail the adventure without a TPK. It creates a nice "failure state"

(I also rule Exhaustion is reduced on Short Rests, but since we play Gritty Realism, it's still a night of resting).


3,5,7,8 Seem pretty brutal, especial if you used all of them at once.

The rest seem reasonable, although I would be warry about taking more than 2 at once.
1 & 6 seem like the most interesting options.

These are all (except number 1) just ideas I'm toying with, not meant to be used simultaneously

[Vogie]

Oh hey, that's much more elegant and integrated. Do you have rules about removing exhaustion levels?

Restoration spells and long rests remove exhaustion, as RAW.
We also use the "DING" rules, so the player will lose all exhaustion, gain all hit points, and refresh everything when they level up. However, we're using milestone leveling, so there isn't a random level up here or there, mid encounter, et cetera.

[Mr Adventurer]

My houserule is failed Death Saves turn into exhaustion points, but only after the fight is over, when the rush of adrenaline stops (to prevent a death spiral where the more you lose... the more you lose).

Since 6 exhaustion points mean Death, it works well to make falling to 0 HP matter. And it often means my PCs will choose to fall back after a difficult fight and flee the dungeon or fail the adventure without a TPK. It creates a nice "failure state"

Cool, so, are characters still at full capacity to act while at 0? Or do they still fall unconscious per normal rules - just replacing the death saves thresholds with exhaustion levels?


Restoration spells and long rests remove exhaustion, as RAW.
We also use the "DING" rules, so the player will lose all exhaustion, gain all hit points, and refresh everything when they level up. However, we're using milestone leveling, so there isn't a random level up here or there, mid encounter, et cetera.

Interesting. Exhaustion is one of the worst status conditions in 5e because it's so bad so quickly and so hard to remove. That doesn't make it a bad thing to use for risk-of-death as you have - but I just wondered if you'd added anything to counterbalance the status' increased frequency.

[Osuniev]

Cool, so, are characters still at full capacity to act while at 0? Or do they still fall unconscious per normal rules - just replacing the death saves thresholds with exhaustion levels?



At my table they still fall unconscious. It doesn't change most fights, it just means falling inconscious is a risky thing, so players will be more careful when they are low on HP.

[Pex]

If you do this then also make a house rule you get back all your hit dice spent on a long rest. People forget the rule is only getting back half hit dice anyway, and it hasn't broken the game. Making it an official house rule will encourage players to use the system.

Other ideas:

Once per long rest as a reaction a spellcaster can roll a HD to add that roll to his Concentration check.

Once per long rest as an action spend a HD to get back a class ability that refreshes on a long or short rest. The ability is not a spell slot or costs points of any kind nor this ability itself.

Once per long rest as an action roll a HD and get back that many points of a class ability that gives you points of some kind.

Once per long rest spend a HD and take another Reaction after already using it before your next turn.

Once per short rest immediately after you take the Attack Action spend a HD to make one attack as a Bonus Action.

[Vogie]

Interesting. Exhaustion is one of the worst status conditions in 5e because it's so bad so quickly and so hard to remove. That doesn't make it a bad thing to use for risk-of-death as you have - but I just wondered if you'd added anything to counterbalance the status' increased frequency.

Not really - one of the interesting things about Exhaustion is that they rarely have more than 2 levels, and the main change is one of tactics. I make really good use of things like cover and height on my battlemaps, and that makes the characters think on their feet.

For example, in the friday night game, the party is a Zealot Barbarian, A Sorc/Wiz, a Div Wiz and an AT Rogue. Ironically, the Barbarian requires the least amount of healing, because of Polearm Master and Rage, and her main concern currently is that she's been infected with bluerot. The first 2 levels of exhaustion don't impact the casters and rogue that much, and even the third level makes them simply rely on spells with saving throws rather than attacks. The rogue uses their Familiar and/or the Aim Cunning action to ignore the disadvantage the one time he hit 3 levels of exhaustion.

[Osuniev]

If you do this then also make a house rule you get back all your hit dice spent on a long rest. People forget the rule is only getting back half hit dice anyway, and it hasn't broken the game. Making it an official house rule will encourage players to use the system.

Well, that's kind of against the design intent. I want to make managing Hit Dice important. Even with these changes, I don't expect PCs to often completely run out of Hit Dice.
Getting only half of them back is what will make these decisions matter, otherwise better use all of them.



Other ideas:

Once per long rest as a reaction a spellcaster can roll a HD to add that roll to his Concentration check.

Oooh, I like that one. (it does require a game where Hit Dice are precious, otherwise it's just a straight buff to casters).

[Mr Adventurer]

Cool. Maybe disadvantage on all ability and skill checks and Initiative, and half movement speed, isn't as bad as I think it's going to be!

[chando]

Hi!
Really liked and see not changing too MUCH game balance.
1. "Restore spells using Hit Dice"

2. Hit Dice to fight exhaustion. Maybe allow once/day a one level reduction on a short rest, spendint a hit die and adding to the d20 roll. Also allow for adding one hit die on the regular recovery rate. Would allow for more use of the mechanic, better berserkers as well.

6. Hit Dice for extra effort. How about do this, but gives you one level of exhaustion immediately/after a minute. Use it too much and you fall dead.
I would add a bit for concentration saves here.
Nice that finnaly a caster can use its "life energy" to concentrate on really important spells, and doesnt make REs(con)/Warcaster as much as a autopic, needed to be a caster (although still amazing feats). depending on the mechenic, could litteraly die seconds after the figth trying to keep a concentration.

on subject of the "Poison costs Hit Dice" I would make one specific poison or monster attack that does that. Maybe called Tiresome Death for laughs.

The others (negative HP and te like) I feel dont bring more fun to the game, or make death too imminent that make you hoard the HD instead of the fun new uses.

Also agree with the house-rule implementation of Recover all HD on long rest if using all these variants...

[Zertryx]

In wayfinders guide to Eberron they introduced the Aberrant mark feat that allows you to use a Hit die to amp up your spell 1 slot that you get from the feat once per day and then you also roll your hit die and take that much damage i believe. This could a be a start to get some ideas. I ended up house ruling that you could expend any ammount of hit dice with this feat and bump it up that many levels but you roll each hit dice and take that much damage (instead of only the one hit dice limit, i felt this wasn't too op since the feat only gives you a level 1 sorc spell and if my level 5 player wants to cast magic missile at level 6 by using all 5 of his hit dice and taking 5d8 damage then im cool with that) since he not only takes damage but now he has 0 hit dice until a long rest

I also bought a book on Drivethru RPG Called "Morgrave Miscellany" that was written by Kieth Baker himself as kinda a unoffical Suplement to Wayfinders guide (it adds more feats, sub class options and race options for Eberron) In it i noticed that certian races and classes Use Hit Dice as a "Resource", one of my players is playing a Barbarian from the book and Durring his RAGE when ever he rolls a Atk roll, Ability check or saving throw he can consume one of his Hit dice to add it to the die roll (you can wait until after you see the roll but before you know the result) then immediate after you Take that much damage as well. (damage cant be reduced)

It's suppose to kinda push the idea that you over exhaust yourself a little to try and do something a little better for a moment. but i thought it was a neat idea that he wanted to use Hit dice as a resource for abilitys / spells / feats, by basically making it this way of you overload yourself and take damage