Fixing True Strike [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Osuniev

2020-05-31, 12:23 PM

Asisreo1

2020-05-31, 12:40 PM

I'm looking for a minor way to make True Strike :
- useful from time to time, enough to make True Strike worthwile instead of other cantrips but not strictly better
- not overpowered
- similar flavourwise (you are trying to ensure your attack next turn will land)
- not too different from RAW.

Ideas I've had :
1. If your next attack hits, it's an automatic Critical.

I like it because it is really thematic. But...
I'm afraid this might make True Strike TOO powerful... Is the use of Concentration (and the risk of losing said concentration) + 1 of your precious Cantrips + 1 action enough of a cost ? Is there a way it can be abused ?

It wouldn't be all that good, tbh. Because you'd be doing double damage when you could've hit twice, but your modifiers are only applied once over the two rounds.

Maybe just increase the Crit Range of the next attack ?

2. True Strike gives +10 to hit instead of Advantage, ignores disavantage, Partial cover and 3/4 cover

This allows you to stack it with advantage, but it's still pretty meh. Maybe that's okay though ? It would make it worthwhile in an ambush scenario...

True strike is really only purposeful in ambushes anyways since it's a silent casting.

3. True Strike GUARANTEES your next attack will hit, unless the enemy has total cover
Makes it relevant against high AC enemy. Still VERY niche though, I think most Cantrips are still better.

4. True Strike gives you something in addition
Maybe one extra dice of damage ? Maybe it bypasses resistance ? Maybe it gives you information about the enemy AC ?
None of these really fit with the idea of the spell though...
One extra dice of damage runs into the same problem as crits, except it doesn't scale at all. Bypassing resistances means you're either doing half damage twice over two turns or full damage once over two turns. So it does nothing. Enemy AC is given handily in alot of games or can be figured out from players just throwing out attacks. You can also tell by how much armor they're wearing.

If anything, it should let you do triple the damage dice, or give advantage several times until concentration ends. There usually isn't enough noncantrip spells that can be cast multiple times that can take advantage of it, but at least you have advantage. A eldritch knight or arcane trickster might be overjoyed with the triple damage dice but it's probably not too big of a boost anyways.

Osuniev

2020-05-31, 04:53 PM

It wouldn't be all that good, tbh. Because you'd be doing double damage when you could've hit twice, but your modifiers are only applied once over the two rounds.

I mean, if you have access to True Strike, you're probably a caster, and so the modifier doesn't matter anyway. With this, you can do a "critical" Inflict Wounds or Blight, WITH advantage, so an average better than double damage, costing only one spell slot.

On the other hand, it means the damage arrives one round later (so maybe the target could have been downed earlier), if you lose concentration you wasted an action, and it has opportunity costs since you do not have your other cantrip.

Edit : Bilght is a CON save not an attack. And Inflict Wounds is not on the spell list of the class which can cast True Strike.

Mr Adventurer

2020-05-31, 06:03 PM

Make it a bonus action to cast it. Still a tactical choice since it restricts your spellcasting in the round you cast it. Still only applies to an attack on your next turn.

Segev

2020-05-31, 06:13 PM

This spell... it comes up over and over in this context. They really didn't think it through.

I'm looking for a minor way to make True Strike :
- useful from time to time, enough to make True Strike worthwile instead of other cantrips but not strictly better
- not overpowered
- similar flavourwise (you are trying to ensure your attack next turn will land)
- not too different from RAW.

Ideas I've had :
1. If your next attack hits, it's an automatic Critical.

I like it because it is really thematic. But...
I'm afraid this might make True Strike TOO powerful... Is the use of Concentration (and the risk of losing said concentration) + 1 of your precious Cantrips + 1 action enough of a cost ? Is there a way it can be abused ?

Maybe just increase the Crit Range of the next attack ?

2. True Strike gives +10 to hit instead of Advantage, ignores disavantage, Partial cover and 3/4 cover

This allows you to stack it with advantage, but it's still pretty meh. Maybe that's okay though ? It would make it worthwhile in an ambush scenario...

3. True Strike GUARANTEES your next attack will hit, unless the enemy has total cover
Makes it relevant against high AC enemy. Still VERY niche though, I think most Cantrips are still better.

4. True Strike gives you something in addition
Maybe one extra dice of damage ? Maybe it bypasses resistance ? Maybe it gives you information about the enemy AC ?
None of these really fit with the idea of the spell though...
My preferred solution is to have it say, "Your next attack against the target cannot have Disadvantage and gains Advantage." Otherwise, leave it alone. Same casting time, duration, targeting, etc. What this does is allow you to have Advantage even if you would otherwise have Disadvantage. Rather than the two negating out, true strike flat-out guarantees Advantage.

Even attacking somebody you can't see who's at long range on your ranged weapon, as long as you can target them at all, you do so with Advantage.

Kane0

2020-05-31, 07:02 PM

What i've been using is:

True Strike
Divination Cantrip
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: Touch
Components: S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute

You touch one willing creature. Once before the spell ends the target can roll 1d4 and add the result to an attack roll of their choice. The spell then ends.
The die rolled increases in size when you reach 5th level (1d6), 11th level (1d8) and 17th level (1d10).

Osuniev

2020-05-31, 07:26 PM

"Your next attack against the target cannot have Disadvantage and gains Advantage." Otherwise, leave it alone. Same casting time, duration, targeting, etc. What this does is allow you to have Advantage even if you would otherwise have Disadvantage. Rather than the two negating out, true strike flat-out guarantees Advantage.

I agree that, worded this way, it can be useful sometimes... But would you pick it ? Would you pick it over Firebolt, or Minor Illusion, or even Light ?
Because I wouldn't. Heck, I still wouldn't pick it over Mending !

Nifft

2020-05-31, 07:27 PM

Let me find that old post... ah here it is:

True Strike
Divination Cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: S
Duration: Instantaneous

As part of casting this spell, you make a single special melee or ranged attack.
- The defender does not gain a benefit to AC from half or three-quarters cover against this attack.
- This attack does not suffer Disadvantage from any environmental effect, including inability see the target due to heavily obscured vision, heavy wind, etc.
- If you are at least 5th level, this attack does not suffer Disadvantage from any Illusion effect, including Blur, Invisibility, etc.
- If you are at least 11th level, you gain a +1 bonus on the attack roll. At 17th level, the bonus increases to +2.

In this form, it's comparable to an SCAG melee cantrip -- it's an Attack-action replacement, not augmentation -- but it works on ranged attacks, and it's a bit more niche since it mostly just removes Disadvantage and Cover.

It also scales up like a good cantrip should.

Segev

2020-05-31, 09:19 PM

I agree that, worded this way, it can be useful sometimes... But would you pick it ? Would you pick it over Firebolt, or Minor Illusion, or even Light ?
Because I wouldn't. Heck, I still wouldn't pick it over Mending !

Depends on the build. For an Arcane Trickster it could be golden.

Zhorn

2020-05-31, 09:42 PM

for a good discussion I recommend having a read of this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?586969-Fixing-True-Strike)

True strike is your 5e equivalent of building a better mousetrap, everyone want to take a shot at it once in a while (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?611742-Retooling-True-Strike-Looking-for-Feedback)

I ended up coming to the conclusion there was no fixing it. Easy advantage is too powerful, and by the time you put a bunch of constraints around it it's just not worth it for a caster, who has so few attack roll spells.

It's fairly weak on the typical caster, but if you make it powerful enough to be worth it, it's ridiculously broken on a GISH
Yep, I remember getting to that conclusion in the other thread

Agreed. As advantage, true strike is a lost cause. Trying to balance a cantrip that grants advantage requires too many conditionals that it becomes either too convoluted or unusable.
With some back and forths (suggest reading the other thread for context, quotes kept to jump to relevant sections) these were the two versions I feel comfortable standing by a year later.

True Strike (modified)
Divination cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: -
Components: V, S, M (a weapon capable of dealing damage)
Duration: Instantaneous

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you make one successful regular attack with your currently equipped weapon against one creature within the that weapon's range/reach, otherwise the spell fails. When hit, the target suffers weapon damage and effects as if hit by a regular attack.
Basic concept is a guaranteed weapon hit, no attack roll means no crit chance, and the further intent of not being able to apply the -5 to hit penalty it disqualifies use with GWM and SS.

The other version reintroducing attack rolls

True Strike (modified)
Divination cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: -
Components: V, S, M (a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous

As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make a weapon attack with your currently equipped weapon against one creature within the that weapon's range/reach, otherwise the spell fails. As a benefit of this spell, you add 1d4 to the roll to hit.
This spell's bonus to hit increases by 1d4 when you reach 5th level (2d4), 11th level (3d4), and 17th level (4d4).

This reintroduces both a chance to miss into the attack with the chance to crit.
Levels 1 to 4: +1 to +4 bonus to hit.
Levels 5 to 10: +2 to +8 bonus to hit.
Levels 11 to 16: +3 to +12 bonus to hit.
Levels 17 to 20: +4 to +16 bonus to hit.

Both are using BB / GFB as the basic structure, but intentionally not including any additional damage component as part of the cantrip (avoiding power creep).
Taking an action means classes with Extra Attack will still favour multiple chances to hit for more damage, but when getting A hit is more important, this is where it comes in.
Action Cantrip gives EK compatibility with War Magic
Not being a Bonus Action allows AT to still dash/disengage/hide etc
Sorcerer based gish builds can meta magic quicken + twin to get off 3 attacks in a round
Warcaster compatible
Concentration free
Immediate payoff

lots of discussion about building these versions in the old thread.

MaxWilson

2020-05-31, 09:52 PM

I'm looking for a minor way to make True Strike :
- useful from time to time, enough to make True Strike worthwile instead of other cantrips but not strictly better
- not overpowered
- similar flavourwise (you are trying to ensure your attack next turn will land)
- not too different from RAW.

Ideas I've had :
1. If your next attack hits, it's an automatic Critical.

I like it because it is really thematic. But...
I'm afraid this might make True Strike TOO powerful... Is the use of Concentration (and the risk of losing said concentration) + 1 of your precious Cantrips + 1 action enough of a cost ? Is there a way it can be abused ?

Maybe just increase the Crit Range of the next attack ?

2. True Strike gives +10 to hit instead of Advantage, ignores disavantage, Partial cover and 3/4 cover

This allows you to stack it with advantage, but it's still pretty meh. Maybe that's okay though ? It would make it worthwhile in an ambush scenario...

3. True Strike GUARANTEES your next attack will hit, unless the enemy has total cover
Makes it relevant against high AC enemy. Still VERY niche though, I think most Cantrips are still better.

4. True Strike gives you something in addition
Maybe one extra dice of damage ? Maybe it bypasses resistance ? Maybe it gives you information about the enemy AC ?
None of these really fit with the idea of the spell though...

One minor fix to True Strike that's probably in keeping with RAI is to eliminate the unnecessary delay:

You extend your hand and point a finger at a target in range. Your magic grants you a brief Insight into the target's defenses. On your next turn, you gain advantage on your first Attack roll against the target, provided that this spell hasn't ended.

Eliminate that clause and it becomes useful for e.g. an Eldritch Knight retiarius trying to land a Net attack on an enemy without suffering the normal Net disadvantage. (True Sight + War Magic: Net attack, to restrain the enemy.) It could also then be useful for niche scenarios like True Sight + Quickened Plane Shift, or True Sight + Quickened Contagion.

Skylivedk

2020-06-01, 03:36 AM

Osuniev

2020-06-01, 07:56 AM

Make True Strike a bonus action. Isn't that the simplest solution? It seems to match with the Aim bonus action from the UA rogue alternative feature. It still takes a concentration slot, so not great most of the time, but now occasionally useful.

And remove the pointing. It's impolite and also I'm certain players can find cooler description than that.

But it means for someone who doesn't have another use for concentration and bonus action (not that unusual), True Strike is costless. I feel it makes it a no-brainer, instead of an interesting trade-off.

Chronos

2020-06-01, 08:43 AM

Osuniev

2020-06-01, 08:44 AM

My fix would be to make it a bonus action, but also make it a first-level spell instead of a cantrip. Maybe also make it apply to all attacks in the same round, instead of just one, to make it more appealing to slightly-magical martials.

Yes, that would work... But I'm tryng to keep it a cantrip (because I feel my PCs have enough interesting choices with lvl 1 spells, not so much with Cantrips).

nickl_2000

2020-06-01, 08:48 AM

Osuniev

2020-06-01, 09:29 AM

This was my solution personally.

True Strike
Divination cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: S
Duration: Conc. 1 round
You extend your hand and point a finger at a target in range. Your magic grants you a brief insight into the target’s defenses. Until the end of your next turn, you gain advantage on all your attack rolls against the target.

You get advantage on AoOs and with multiple attacks. It naturally gains power as you level since you get more attacks.

I guess that makes it ok for Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Valor Bards...
But it still sucks for full casters who only have one attack and not much AoO. Or do you think granting advantage on a higher level spell makes it worthwhile on it's own ?

(Just thinking outloud, not saying it's a bad idea.)

How would someone abuse it if it granted a Critical Hit (IFF the attack worked) ? I really like it but I'm afraid I missed an exploit.

Segev

2020-06-01, 09:50 AM

nickl_2000

2020-06-01, 09:59 AM

I guess that makes it ok for Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Valor Bards...
But it still sucks for full casters who only have one attack and not much AoO. Or do you think granting advantage on a higher level spell makes it worthwhile on it's own ?

(Just thinking outloud, not saying it's a bad idea.)

How would someone abuse it if it granted a Critical Hit (IFF the attack worked) ? I really like it but I'm afraid I missed an exploit.

There are a fair amount of subclasses that get multiple attacks.

Stone Sorcerer, Warlock (bladelock), Bladesinger, Valor Bard, Swords Bard, EK (definitely), AT. However, it also applies to all attack rolls not just weapon attacks. So, you get advantage on your Eldritch Blast or your spell attack that you just need to hit.

As for critical, just think of the case where you roll the most die and that is where it will be effective. Rogues will dream about it (especially AT who use booming blade). A fighter 2/ AT X will take it for action surge and burn that like crazy in the first round, often dropping someone hard in that first attack. For others, honestly it probably isn't worth it.

MrCharlie

2020-06-01, 10:10 AM

To be fair to 5e true strike, it never really saw much use in previous editions. I seem to remember it only being used when cover/concealment and other such effects were limiting vision and someone wanted to spam out a really strong spell, or someone had the ability to cast it for free without spell slots or actions (in which case it was, of course, great for a gish).

The real problem with true strike is that there aren't enough high level attack roll spells that do damage. If something like disintegrate required an attack roll, then true-strike would matter because one attack roll would actually be more important than another. But outside of low-level clerics, no caster gives two craps about their attack roll spells, as they either attack multiple people (steel wind strike), are cantrips, or suck. If we had worthwhile attack spells you'd consider using true-strike to decrease the chance you waste a slot, because in that circumstance casting the spell twice really isn't an option.

This is the real problem with true-strike, and if it were remedied it would work, more or less, like the spell in other editions.

Hence the only changes I'd make to true strike are as follows.

1. It removes disadvantage from darkness, distance, and all non-magical sources, as well as all cover bonuses to AC for the next attack except full cover.

2. If you cast True strike on a target, you "see" the target even if it is invisible, in cover, or you are blinded, as long as it is within line of sight.

Bullet 1 brings it in line with its intended effect. Bullet 2 gives it a usage on par with other cantrips-situationally, you can use it to bypass a few annoying tactics involving sight blockers and spells which require sight to target, at the cost of an action each turn. That's more or less on-par with what cantrips can do.

jas61292

2020-06-01, 10:22 AM

How would someone abuse it if it granted a Critical Hit (IFF the attack worked) ? I really like it but I'm afraid I missed an exploit.

If it was otherwise the same as it is currently it would be hard to abuse it too much. Guys with bonus damage dice like doubling them on a crit, but if it means not getting them at all the previous turn, its pretty much a wash, and only useful if you can set up an ambush. If those bonus dice cost a resource, this could let you save resources, but typically the ones for whom that is the case are guys like paladins, and when you have two attacks per round, one critting once is not worth giving up two normal attacks the previous round.

The only real advantage of getting the crit that I can see would be for spellcasters using it to get far more bang for their buck on leveled spells. While there is always an advantage of doing damage faster, if a creature is unlikely to die in one round, doing double damage round two is the same as doing normal damage in both rounds, and if the former uses fewer spell slots, it is the better strategy. That said, this will hardly have much impact on balance in my opinion.

Now in terms of actually exploiting this, the only real way to do that would be if you have a very limited resource to boost damage, and thus by use of True Strike, could guarantee that boost aligns with a crit. The best example I can think of for this would be a Tempest Cleric that dips a level in Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard for True Strike and Chromatic Orb/Witch Bolt. At level 3 (Cleric 2 / Other Class 1), you could cast True Strike and then throw a Chromatic Orb out of a level two slot. If it hits, you channel divinity to do straight up 64 damage. At higher levels the damage potential could become absolutely crazy, especially if you nabbed Witch Bolt for those 5th level and above slots. Now obviously this kind of damage is something that could already be done with some luck, but a true strike that grants crits lets it be fairly reliable. And it doing so allows single spell slot damage that dwarfs other options by comparison.

Whether this is a real issue is hard to say, but its the biggest potential abuse that I can think of.

Skylivedk

2020-06-01, 11:08 AM

But it means for someone who doesn't have another use for concentration and bonus action (not that unusual), True Strike is costless. I feel it makes it a no-brainer, instead of an interesting trade-off.
And whom do you have in mind?

Most of the time, I'd take create bonfire and most of the level one buffs/debuffs over true strike. If it is then giving an edge when tank is on E and took a cantrip choice; no biggie. Better than it just being a waste of space and innocent tree.

If you don't like the bonus action version, you can keep the action cost and change the amount of attacks it affects (ie by lasting till end of next turn as suggested above), remove the concentration cost or go for some of the other suggestions :)

Garfunion

2020-06-01, 11:47 AM

The simplest fix I can think of would be to change “on your next turn” to “you next attack roll”. This means the spell will be active on the same turn it is cast.

Allowing for sorcery point use, opportunity attack, and/or more cinematic/tactical commander’s strike.

Segev

2020-06-01, 02:40 PM

Could just make it count your next attack roll as a 20, or, if you don't want an auto-hit, a 19.

Democratus

2020-06-01, 02:59 PM

I think an auto-hit (but not a crit) is a reasonable result of the spell.

olskool

2020-06-01, 03:28 PM

How about making True Strike...

1) Provide ADVANTAGE to ALL strikes in the following round and it ignores DISADVANTAGE provided for all conditions.
2) Be able to strike creatures only hit by magical weapons starting with a +1 Resistance and increasing the Resistance to be hit by 1 every time the caster's Proficiency Bonus [by Level] increases? This would allow low-level characters to hit magical creatures without having to resort to magical weapons.
3) Allow it to be cast on anyone by touch.

I would then take away CONCENTRATION on the Magic Weapon/Enchanted Weapon Spell (I cannot remember its name and my book isn't handy) as a higher level Spell in 5e. This gives players without magic weapons the ability to hit creatures hit only by magical weapons.

Democratus

2020-06-01, 03:34 PM

I would then take away CONCENTRATION on the Magic Weapon/Enchanted Weapon Spell (I cannot remember its name and my book isn't handy) as a higher level Spell in 5e. This gives players without magic weapons the ability to hit creatures hit only by magical weapons.

Not sure I follow this bit. You can use Magic Weapon to hit creatures that have resistance to non-magical weapons whether or not it is a Concentration spell.

Magic Weapon is a staple spell in most of our campaigns, as D&D 5e has no guarantees of magic weaponry. It's a fantastic buff spell for when you face these kinds of creatures.

Chronos

2020-06-01, 06:10 PM

Taking away the concentration on Magic Weapon means that the caster can keep on being a caster while also enabling the fighter to be a fighter. As-is, yeah, you can use it, but it means saying "I'll suck so you don't have to".

Tanarii

2020-06-01, 08:34 PM

What if it gave your opponent disadvantage on saving throw spells as well? OP?

Asisreo1

2020-06-01, 09:15 PM

What if it gave your opponent disadvantage on saving throw spells as well? OP?
Probably, yeah. It takes a sorcerer 3 sorcery points to do that but why would they if they can do it at the cost of a cantrip?

Especially since they have an extra cantrip that no other class gets innately (without investing in a branching path).

Osuniev

2020-06-01, 09:58 PM

Probably, yeah. It takes a sorcerer 3 sorcery points to do that but why would they if they can do it at the cost of a cantrip?

Because the Sorcery points don't cost an action, unlike True Strike.

Asisreo1

2020-06-01, 10:16 PM

Because the Sorcery points don't cost an action, unlike True Strike.
You can also twin True Strike, which means you give disadvantage on two enemies at once. That's very very good.

Even if you aren't a sorcerer, you'll always use true strike before casting a save spell because it's a limited resource and can completely flip encounters. I know cantrips scale but they definitely fall off at higher levels where you can basically cast as many leveled spells as you can and still have leftovers. But true strike would only get massively better the higher your tier (because of spell manipulation abilities and limits).

Osuniev

2020-06-01, 10:40 PM

Let's See what are the Spells that benefit the most from True Strike :

Lvl 1 :
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Ray of Sickness
Ice Knife

Lvl 2:
Melf's Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Vampiric Touch

Lvl 5
Steel Wind Strike

Lvl 7
Crown of Stars
Plane Shift (when used as a weaker Banishment).

aaaaaaand That's it. These are all the spells which are :
- an Attack
- on the Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer or Wizard Spell lists (which can pick up True Strike without a feat or multiclassing)
- not concentration

None of those spells are really overpowered.

Ray of Sickness is a debuff, so delaying their casting by one turn matters.
Scorching Rays, Steel Wind Strike and Crown of Stars are multiple separate attacks so only one benefits from True Strike
Vampiric Touch is used for healing the caster, but if you're low on HP, spending one turn concentrating on True Strike is a risk. And if you lost HP between your 1st and 2nd turn, you have a chance of losing concentration.
Plane Shift is already not optimal when used to Banish, and allows a Charisma save in addition to the attack roll.

With that in mind, I'm now convinced making True Strike an automatic Critical (IF the attack lands) is fine and won't overpower anything.

II suppose you could do much better multiclassing it or taking it with a feat, but that's ok in my books if a player wants to do the effort.

A Cleric could use it to greater effect in boosting Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon or Guiding Bolt. That may be the strongest use, but how many Clerics actually multiclass in Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wizard or take Magic Initiate ?
A Paladin or Rogue could use it to boost a Smite or Sneak Attack, but :
- the Paladin would be wasting one turn of multiattack (except at lvl 4, only moment where they would really have a chance of picking uup True Strike with Magic Initiate). Plus, being in Melee, they have a decent chance of losing concentration.
- the Rogue is not better of than if they attack on BOTH turns since SA doesn't cost ressources (except situationally when the 1st turn could not get advantage/SA, in which case it's fine, we want the spell to be useful).

Does anyone feel like I missed something ?

Asisreo1

2020-06-01, 11:07 PM

Let's See what are the Spells that benefit the most from True Strike :

Lvl 1 :
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Ray of Sickness

Lvl 2:
Melf's Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Vampiric Touch

aaaaaaand That's it. These are all the spells which are :
- an Attack
- on the Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer or Wizard Spell lists (which can pick up True Strike without a feat or multiclassing)
- not concentration

None of those spells are really overpowered.

Ray of Sickness is a debuff, so delaying their casting by one turn matters.
Scorching Rays are 3 separate attacks so only one benefits from True Strike
Vampiric Touch is used for healing the caster, but if you're low on HP, spending one turn concentrating on True Strike is a risk. And if you lost HP between your 1st and 2nd turn, you have a chance of losing concentration.

II suppose you could do much better multiclassing it or taking it with a feat, but that's ok in my books if a player wants to do the effort.

A Cleric could use it to greater effect in boosting Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon or Guiding Bolt. That may be the strongest use, but how many Clerics actually multiclass in Bard/Sorcerer/Warlock/Wiard or take Magic Initiate ?
A Paladin or Rogue could use it to boost a Smite or Sneak Attack, but :
- the Paladin would be wasting one turn of multiattack (except at lvl 4, only moment where they would really have a chance of picking uup True Strike with Magic Initiate). Plus, being in Melee, they have a decent chance of losing concentration.
- the Rogue is not better of than if they attack on BOTH turns since SA doesn't cost ressources (except situationally when the 1st turn could not get advantage/SA, in which case it's fine).

With that in mind, I'm now convinced making True Strike an automatic Critical (IF the attack lands) is fine and won't overpower anything.

Does anyone feel like I missed something ?
Plane Shift is an attack roll spell.

Anyways, true strike being a critical isn't overpowered, it's underpowered. You've shown how few spells can actually capitalize on True Strike. What're you going to use it on? Chromatic orb isn't an amazing spell and scales horribly. You've listed reasons why the others don't quite hold up.

If you use it on cantrips, you could've casted the cantrip twice. If you use it on an extra attack user, they'll use up a whole action for something that's less equivalent than a single attack anyways, with maybe an exception from a Barbarian (but True strike for barbarians?)

True Strike needs to be a buff that makes it worth losing a turn, otherwise it isn't useful at all. If anyone has played Turn-based RPG videogame, a spell that does a one-time boost that costs a turn should boost the attack at least x3 to make it worth it. Otherwise, there wasn't any point.

I propose True Strike lets an attack roll do 3x damage on the first hit, all else equal. It would be quite good for Eldritch Knights but it's still taking away a multiattack and eventually falls off at tier 4, as cantrips should. Arcane Tricksters may have a field day with it but they also use up an action, though it doesn't fall of as much at tier 4. It's still useful for cantrip users since the spell will always be a bulk damage per attack roll (with the exception of eldritch blast, where true strike would fall off at tier 4 as well).

Yakk

2020-06-01, 11:32 PM

Paladin Whispers bard with a flametongue longsword. 12d8(54)+14d6(49)+7=110 damage crit (4th level spell slot and a 5/short rest ability).

2 attacks deal 2d8(9)+4d6(14)+14=37.

A smite+whisper is 5d8+5d6=40. So 2 attacks+smite+whisper is 77 damage.

So True Strike cantrip adds 33 damage to the combo.

I guess 128.5 isn't a broken 2 turn combo.

Yuroch Kern

2020-06-03, 01:50 AM

I just remove Concentration. It opens up a couple more combos, and instead of a specific enemy in 30', it's a recipient in 10'. Every other limit applies. Not too bad.

Tes

2020-06-03, 03:13 AM

Well. let's look on a criteria list:
Current
- only S Components
- costs your Action
- self only
- 30 ft range single target
- Concentration w duration 6 seconds
- Advantage on Casters next turn for the first attack roll

Current uses:
Precast against a fairly close target from hiding for a better Surprise Round.... if the target can't hear you muttering, you're using something with attack rolls and aren't maintaining Concentration on something else.

List of options stuff to fiddle with:
- make it targetable to Partymembers
- increase Range to allow "Sniping"
- allow it to work with a full Attack Action/spell/turn
- change/build on Advantage - +10 to hit, ignore 1/2 & 3/4 cover, ignore Blur, ignore Mirror Image
- remove Concentration
- make it work with DC based single target spells

Autohits are bad in my book and so are auto crits. Too many things that can go wrong there, stuff should always be able to fail even if you need double 1s on a D20. Advantage can be very easy to grab so I'd probably remove Advantage from it and go with ignore Disadvantage, +10 to hit and make it ignore things that make you miss (as listed above, cover, Blur, Mirror image...). I agree it should work on the next attack against the target rather than next turn (allowing some synergy with Booming Blade/Sentinel AoOs and Quicken) but keep it one roll.
Increase the DC of the next Attack by half your Proficiency Modifier against the target, doesn't work with AOE or multitarget Spells.
Remove Concentration when cast on self, so you can use it to set up stuff like Ensnaring Strike etc.
Allow casting on others with Concentration required.

Things I wouldn't do personally:
Have it impact crit chance or autocrit. That's just going to make yet another combo it works best with, dunno Half Orc Great Axe Gish Sorladin twinning True Strike and then twin 2 autocrit Booming Blades + smiting on top of the guaranteed crits.
It's still a Cantrip it should be useful and compliment more efficient use of Spellslots, not just ideal for better (single target) DPR. Temporarily circumventing fairly low level defensive Spells in exchange for an Action is useful but not going to break the game.
Increasing DC and to Hit chance makes some stuff double dip and increases the fairly limited amount of Spells it works with right now, up to 3 extra DC keeps it relevant even in higher tiers.

Tanarii

2020-06-03, 03:23 AM

Current uses:
Precast against a fairly close target from hiding for a better Surprise Round.... if the target can't hear you muttering, you're using something with attack rolls and aren't maintaining Concentration on something else.

If you attack from hiding you already get advantage on your attack roll.

There is no muttering because it is S only.

It's uses are:
- your next spell is going to be an attack roll & no concentration spell using your highest level slot. Or at least one you can't afford to blow easily. Basically that means an upcast Chromatic Orb.
- you cannot make an attack because all you've got are melee attacks, and you're just out of reach.
- you're in the open, combat hasn't started, and your DM generously rules that it isn't obviously casting a spell, just pointing at someone.

BarneyBent

2020-06-03, 03:41 AM

Make it a Bonus Action to cast. If you’re worried about this being abused by martials (e.g. a Swashbuckler who won’t be bonus action hiding) in the early levels then you can also remove concentration but require a CHA saving throw. This means martials will have to invest in the relevant spell casting statistic to make it land regularly, removing concentration so it’s not too much of a penalty to casters.

Asisreo1

2020-06-03, 04:13 AM

Something about True Strike is it can be used before you become polymorphed by an ally and your first, likely buffed, attack has advantage which may have better efficiency than any of your non-ploymorph actions on the previous turn.

Mr Adventurer

2020-06-03, 04:14 AM

It's uses are:
- your next spell is going to be an attack roll & no concentration spell using your highest level slot. Or at least one you can't afford to blow easily. Basically that means an upcast Chromatic Orb.

People keep saying this, but a quick look suggests to me that there are 15 Wizard spells that meet the criteria.

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 05:25 AM

People keep saying this, but a quick look suggests to me that there are 15 Wizard spells that meet the criteria.

Which ones ? Because I've found only 7 spells in the Bard, Warlock, Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists.
(Note that Concentration Spells won't work since true strike is Concentration)

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 05:33 AM

W
Things I wouldn't do personally:
Have it impact crit chance or autocrit. That's just going to make yet another combo it works best with, dunno Half Orc Great Axe Gish Sorladin twinning True Strike and then twin 2 autocrit Booming Blades + smiting on top of the guaranteed crits.

I've honestly been looking and haven't found any way to abuse the autocrit. As others have pointed out, it is still often better to do two attacks and not waste your concentration. It's often still better to attack on the first turn. Not always of course, which is why I think it's a good fix.

Mr Adventurer

2020-06-03, 05:57 AM

Which ones ? Because I've found only 7 spells in the Bard, Warlock, Wizard and Sorcerer spell lists.
(Note that Concentration Spells won't work since true strike is Concentration)

Booming Blade
Chaos Bolt
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Crown of Stars
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Ice Knife
Melf's Acid Arrow
Plane Shift
Ray of Frost
Ray of Sickness
Scorching Ray
Shocking Grasp
Steel Wind Strike

Chronos

2020-06-03, 07:02 AM

Most of those are cantrips, which means there's no reason at all not to just cast the attack cantrip twice instead of True Strike plus the other cantrip.

Tes

2020-06-03, 07:13 AM

I've honestly been looking and haven't found any way to abuse the autocrit. As others have pointed out, it is still often better to do two attacks and not waste your concentration. It's often still better to attack on the first turn. Not always of course, which is why I think it's a good fix.

You literally quoted the example about where automatic crits would be abuseable.
Any sort of Smites for double dice/Spellslot and other on crit effects (Half Orc).

Using a Cantrip and a couple Sorcery points to blast two things with a critical Booming Blade +10D8 each for a couple Sorcery points seems good enough to me.
Potential Paladin 2/ Sorcerer X/Warlock X for double autocrits with double dice Smite + Eldridch Smites is probably not any more problematic than the existing Sorladin options, but it doesn't work well for the "standard guy" and adds just another build to the list that outclasses "normal" ones.

Zhorn

2020-06-03, 07:24 AM

I feel there are a lot of traps to fall into with a True Strike redesign.

As a cantrip, what it needs to be is simple and not overpowered.

Advantage is one of those potentially overpowered parts, especially with trying to get it as a same-turn + concentration-free + compatible with levelled spells, etc.

Levelled spell comparability is another big one. If you're changing it to a bonus action cantrip that you can pair with other spells on the same turn, it's not just a strong pairing, but outright overpowered. Isn't that the definition? Something so much stronger than the alternative choices that it is THE pick to make every time?

So then there's the challenge of once you get the parts you want, what restrictions you need to place on it to reign in the power-scale, or up the cost to match the value you are getting from it.

This is where reading a lot of the redesign ideas, there's many of them which are either getting too complicated with multiple caveats and non-linear scaling (some read like a progression of class features more than just a cantrip), or outright OP where the redesigner is wanting everything with it costing near nothing in return.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. Just thinking out loud. I like reading the ideas people are coming up with, and want to encourage folks to bring their ideas forwards. True Strike as it exists in RAW is just bad, but it doesn't mean that the solution is to do the exact opposite of its design, or that there doesn't exist some reasons behind the design choices.
When working on those redesigns, be sure to think what the core goals of the spell should be, what the cost should be, and where it would sit on the power-scale against the other options available.

Tanarii

2020-06-03, 07:53 AM

Booming Blade
Chaos Bolt
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Crown of Stars
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Ice Knife
Melf's Acid Arrow
Plane Shift
Ray of Frost
Ray of Sickness
Scorching Ray
Shocking Grasp
Steel Wind StrikeCantrips don't count. It's superior to just cast them twice.

Spells people don't take because they are subpar in their own right:
Chaos Bolt
Melfs
Ray of sickness

Scorching Ray and crown of stars the damage is over multiple attacks, and CoS is also over multiple rounds. steel wind strike is multiple targets AND it can't be upcast.

Okay fine, amended comment: ... which pretty much means upcasting Chromatic Orb and Iceknife, or Plane shift.

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 08:17 AM

Booming Blade
Chaos Bolt
Chill Touch
Chromatic Orb
Crown of Stars
Fire Bolt
Green-Flame Blade
Ice Knife
Melf's Acid Arrow
Plane Shift
Ray of Frost
Ray of Sickness
Scorching Ray
Shocking Grasp
Steel Wind Strike

As has been said above :
- cantrips don't count since you're better of casting them twice
- Ray of Sickness would not double the debuff, and would delay the debuff by one turn
- Scorching Ray, Steel Wind Strike and Crown of Stars are several attacks, so it only buffs the first of them. Again, suboptimal in most cases.
- Plane Shift used for Banishment is a 7th lvl spell slot used for a 4th level effect, AND it allows a Charisma Save anyway. If True Strike allows less chance of failing, it's a GOOD THING.

I did miss Ice Knife, however most of the damage of Ice Knife is based on a Dex Save, the Attack roll is only for 1d10 and doesn't scale.

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 08:19 AM

You literally quoted the example about where automatic crits would be abuseable.
Any sort of Smites for double dice/Spellslot and other on crit effects (Half Orc).
.

I don't see this as abuse, just a good use of the ability. It makes it worth using on an on-crit effect, for characters who don't have easy access to True Strike, so there's an opportunity cost in picking Magic Initiate or multiclass.

And anyone who can Smite will be able to multiattack (except at lvl 2 to 4, where it's much harder to get access to True Strike), arguably a much better use of an action than doubling the damage of their FUTURE attack. And all the Smiting SPELLS require Concentration so cannot be combined with True Strike anyway.

Seems fine to me.

Mr Adventurer

2020-06-03, 09:00 AM

Most of those are cantrips, which means there's no reason at all not to just cast the attack cantrip twice instead of True Strike plus the other cantrip.

Actually 6 out of 15 of those are cantrips, not "most".

There might be "no reason" not to cast twice in a white room scenario. Other scenarios have already been suggested in this thread.

Cantrips don't count. It's superior to just cast them twice.

Spells people don't take because they are subpar in their own right:
Chaos Bolt
Melfs
Ray of sickness

Scorching Ray and crown of stars the damage is over multiple attacks, and CoS is also over multiple rounds. steel wind strike is multiple targets AND it can't be upcast.

Okay fine, amended comment: ... which pretty much means upcasting Chromatic Orb and Iceknife, or Plane shift.

As has been said above :
- cantrips don't count since you're better of casting them twice
- Ray of Sickness would not double the debuff, and would delay the debuff by one turn
- Scorching Ray, Steel Wind Strike and Crown of Stars are several attacks, so it only buffs the first of them. Again, suboptimal in most cases.
- Plane Shift used for Banishment is a 7th lvl spell slot used for a 4th level effect, AND it allows a Charisma Save anyway. If True Strike allows less chance of failing, it's a GOOD THING.

I did miss Ice Knife, however most of the damage of Ice Knife is based on a Dex Save, the Attack roll is only for 1d10 and doesn't scale.

See my response above.

Also, though, I don't know what you're getting at with your 2nd point, I don't see the relevance of your 3rd point, and your 4th point seems to be arguing in favour of TS which AIUI is the opposite of what you're trying to say?

The point I made was only that there are more to-hit non-concentration spells than Chromatic Orb.

Tes

2020-06-03, 09:03 AM

Asisreo1

2020-06-03, 10:43 AM

People love to yell how incompetent the game designers are, yet these design problems leave people scratching their heads for a true "fix."

We've had forums everywhere, reddit, rpgstack, enworld, and here that claim to fix True Strike yet none really stick.

I don't believe there's actually a better fix, it's just a bad spell option. You want to "reveal someone's weakness of defenses" at the cost of a cantrip. With that premise, so little can be done that isn't overpowered or generally useless.

It's a legacy spell that survived because it was the iconic divination cantrip but it's function means nothing. Basically, the only real, balanced fix for it would be to remove it from the spell list.

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 12:51 PM

A redesign where only Sorcerers can make use of is by quickening or autocrits make better use of Smites miss the point and just add powercreep in a niche that doesn't really need help.
It's creating a new problem rather than fixing the existing one - making True Strike worth casting... sometimes... over a damage Cantrip in Combat.

I think it goes a long way to fixing the existing problem. With this version of True Strike (everything RAW + auto crit if it hits), True Strike become useful (not broken) if you don't need concentration, can afford for your target to no go down until next round, and :
- your attack this turn is likely to fail (cover, disadvantage, you name it)
- your next attack is going to use a resource (the spells mentioned earlier)
- the combat hasn't started yet, like in an Ambush scenario
- a critical hit is better than two attacks AND you don't have Multiattack.

That is not all the time, but it's enough that I would pick it up as my 2nd or 3rd cantrip if I was a wizard, sorcerer, warlock or even Bard of Whispers. Still much better than the only uses of True Strike NOW :

- the combat hasn't started yet AND you don't already have advantage by being hidden
- you're in combat and there's NOTHING useful you can do with your action

which is so niche that it makes True Strike a trap option.

Again, if you were an Half-Orc Paladin at my table, feel free to pick up Magic Initiate or Multiclass as a Spellcaster for True Strike. I believe you wouldn't do as well as you would picking up GWF, Sentinel, Lucky, Mobile, Tough, an ASI, or any other non-suboptimal multiclass. I do not think it is an abuse. I would be glad to see you use True Strike if you did it.

Worst case scenario ? You would be slightly more powerful until you got Extra Attack, and then your cantrip would become much more situational.

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 12:55 PM

Also, though, I don't know what you're getting at with your 2nd point, I don't see the relevance of your 3rd point, [...]

The point I made was only that there are more to-hit non-concentration spells than Chromatic Orb.

his 3rd point was : since most of those Spells actually call for multiple attack rolls, and True Strike only improves ONE of them, the fact that they exist doesn't mean True Strike is useful for them.

Mr Adventurer

2020-06-03, 01:20 PM

his 3rd point was : since most of those Spells actually call for multiple attack rolls, and True Strike only improves ONE of them, the fact that they exist doesn't mean True Strike is useful for them.

Yes, so, irrelevant to my post, the point of which I re-iterated.

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 01:24 PM

Ok that's fair, he probably thought you were replying in the context of the actual discussion, which only mentioned Spells with Attack Rolls because they were the only ones TS is useful for.

Vogie

2020-06-03, 02:40 PM

I think making it a concentration-requiring version of the Cunning Action: Aim that was presented in one of the UAs would work. That way it'd be more useful for the normal PCs who would take it, while being useless for ATs and, to a lesser extent, EKs (as it is a non-bo with War Magic).

Edit: You could also have it use the Marking Mechanic from the DMG, just not tied to the weapon attack. It could also work as a faux-Warcaster, allowing the caster to make ranged or spell Attacks of Opportunity

FabulousFizban

2020-06-03, 03:10 PM

trim the fat. drop the spell.

Yuroch Kern

2020-06-03, 03:16 PM

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 04:14 PM

Well, careful about casting it in a vacuum. Eventually, we all risk a slotted spell, face a high AC DPSer, SOMETHING, and you might be needing that one(1) Arrow of Slaying to hit the dragon. It may delay, but it grants Advantage out of the blue, often times in scenarios where you can't really have it.
Arrows of Slaying are precisely the kind of reason I'd like the spell to be relevant. This iconic moment when you NEED to make that shot...

Thing is, this kind of situation shows up, what, twice a campaign ? It doesn't make TS worthwhile, RAW. I personally would be fine if my players used it to critical hit the dragon (in fact, since the spell is only 30 feet, it would make for an awesome and tense moment where they approach it, have to maintain concentration/bluff it then attack...)

The Help action/Hide action are other ways to get advantage which don't cost a precious cantrip. Hell, Find Familiar can do everything RAW True Strike can, (and so much more in terms of recon etc) without costing concentration, actions nor a spell slot once it's been cast.

Yuroch Kern

2020-06-03, 04:31 PM

Arrows of Slaying are precisely the kind of reason I'd like the spell to be relevant. This iconic moment when you NEED to make that shot...

Thing is, this kind of situation shows up, what, twice a campaign ? It doesn't make TS worthwhile, RAW. I personally would be fine if my players used it to critical hit the dragon (in fact, since the spell is only 30 feet, it would make for an awesome and tense moment where they approach it, have to maintain concentration/bluff it then attack...)

The Help action/Hide action are other ways to get advantage which don't cost a precious cantrip. Hell, Find Familiar can do everything RAW True Strike can, (and so much more in terms of recon etc) without costing concentration, actions nor a spell slot once it's been cast.

Not often, true, but keep in mind the initial casting is 30'. You can move away to like 100' and still take that shot next round. This is an example of it sucks, until a situation comes up where it is all you got. Which is fine for a S only spell that you never run out of. I don't think the fix is allowing it to be usable every round after the first. Help/Hide are also infinite advantage, but those also cost actions and have conditions were they can be used too. Turning TS into a recipient in 10', as opposed to a single target in 30', gives it a little more flexibilty as a party buff. Especially if it is Twinned.

Yuroch Kern

2020-06-03, 04:59 PM

I suppose adding the wording "ignores half and three quarters cover" would also make it less difficult...

sayaijin

2020-06-03, 05:53 PM

I really like Zhorn's suggestions from the other thread, especially the one about making it similar to BB / GFM that it is a spell that requires an attack. Then you add scaling dice to the attack roll. My only question is why not also add the same scaling dice to the damage roll since it would compete with BB / GFB?

True Strike:

Evocation cantrip

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Weapon Range
Components: V, M (a weapon)
Duration: 1 round

You gain insights into the weaknesses of one foe and strike where its guard is down. As part of the action used to cast this spell, you must make an attack with a weapon against one creature, otherwise the spell fails.

When you roll to hit, you add an additional 1d6 to the attack roll. On a hit, the target suffers the attack's normal effects.

At Higher Levels. At 5th level, the attack deals an extra 1d6 damage to the target, and the bonus to the attack roll increases to 2d6. Both rolls increase by 1d6 at 11th level and 17th level.

Spell Lists. Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard

I think this captures the idea of casting a spell that makes your attack more likely to hit and strike where it hurts. An arcane trickster would have to give up BB to use this, so they would sacrifice damage for chance to hit. Other martials would probably rather attack twice, even sharpshooters and great weapon masters. If this is still too strong, you can limit it to melee attacks like BB /GFB.

Chronos

2020-06-03, 06:38 PM

Osuniev

2020-06-03, 07:31 PM

Just for the record, an offensive Plane Shift is much better than Banishment. Banishment lets you take an enemy out of a fight for as long as you keep concentrating, and then, if you can keep concentrating for a full minute, and if the enemy is extraplanar, you can get rid of it permanently. Plane Shift lets you get rid of an enemy right now, permanently, no matter its creature type.

Well, that's true, but it also cost a 7th spell slot and you need your attack to hit AND his Charisma save to fail. Most fights, if I have both available, I'd choose Banishment. I'd even more try two Banishment than a True Strike then a Plane Shift.

Asisreo1

2020-06-03, 07:43 PM

Well, that's true, but it also cost a 7th spell slot and you need your attack to hit AND his Charisma save to fail. Most fights, if I have both available, I'd choose Banishment. I'd even more try two Banishment than a True Strike then a Plane Shift.
Sure, but Banishment ends your concentration, Plane Shift does not.

Melee attacks aren't that hard to hit at high levels either. Even if you're enemy has a coveted 21 AC, you're attack modifier is roughly +10-11 so it isn't that hard to hit w/ True Strike. The Charisma save is annoying but hopefully you're targeting someone with mid-low charisma saves or without any proficiency. Plus, as Max mentioned, Banishment delays the problem, Plane Shift can basically solve it.

Zhorn

2020-06-03, 08:45 PM

I really like Zhorn's suggestions from the other thread, especially the one about making it similar to BB / GFM that it is a spell that requires an attack.Then you add scaling dice to the attack roll.
Daww, I enjoy my posts being noticed :smallredface:

My only question is why not also add the same scaling dice to the damage roll since it would compete with BB / GFB?
Additional damage isn't including because of the power-creep concern. This point has been brought up in the true strike discussion many times in the past, often by people far smarter than I am, but the general principle there's a base level of power that you shouldn't exceed too easily as to avoid making you change the best choice in ALL scenarios. The more power you add, to keep in line with the other options available at the same level there should be some cost or restriction that stops it being the best in all conditions.
Take Green Flame-Blade and Booming Blade, both are stronger than a regular attack, but costing an action makes then less versatile than the Extra Attack feature. You can attack multiple times, or just once for a bigger hit.
Adding damage on top of True Strike is making it even stronger than that, even with dropping in die size, it is still the superior choice in the matter. You are essentially making the attacking weapon an equivalent of a +1d6 Magic Weapon at a cantrip level (note the spell for Magic weapon is a 2nd level spell for a +1), and it only gets more OP at higher levels if you include level scaling.
It's a big allure of homebrew to keep adding +pluses, but to keep the design balanced you need to look at what the other options are at that power level, what the cost is for other things that grant more power, and draw your line in the ground as your "do not pass this" marker.

At the cantrip level (ie: Action cost, no spell slots) you can have ONE of: +damage or +accuracy or +extra attack. Only one. Any more than that and you are in spell slot territory or should be relying on a higher level class feature to achieve.

Vogie

2020-06-03, 09:47 PM

Actually, if you're creating an attack roll cantrip that'd largely be used on casters - why not make it a single-turn version of Shillelagh? Instead of being locked into a club or quarterstaff, True Strike would allow the caster to use their casting modifier for the attack and damage rolls, and lock it into a specific damage die. The tradeoff, of course, is that Shillelagh lasts a minute without concentration, but is weapon-locked; while New Strike would be expanded to any weapons you are proficient with, but lasts a single round with concentration.

Moreb Benhk

2020-06-04, 02:43 AM

What if it was not a spell but an action anyone could take. All other descriptors being the same (Action, Concentration, etc). That way its still useful in those random edge cases(eg arrow of slaying).

sayaijin

2020-06-04, 06:50 AM

Zhorn, those are some great points. I guess I was trying to balance with BB / GFB by sacrificing damage for accuracy. I guess attack roll boost only is the way to go.

Alternatively, Vogie had a decent idea too. One weapon attack using casting stat instead of martial stat. That way, they could remove the Hexblade's feature and just tack it on a cantrip.

Vogie

2020-06-04, 11:04 AM

Alternatively, Vogie had a decent idea too. One weapon attack using casting stat instead of martial stat. That way, they could remove the Hexblade's feature and just tack it on a cantrip.

I wouldn't remove that section of Hexblade, because it'd be a nonbo with Thirsting Blade invocation... but it'd be useful for Tome and Chain locks to be able to use their lone attack better. Tomelocks with Shillelagh were the original hexblades, of course.

ForeverFlame

2020-06-04, 02:10 PM

I like the idea of making it a bonus action, but in my opinion it should also give you some info on the target (like the Battle Master's feature). However, this information should have a cooldown so you don't just get everything about them.

Alucard89

2020-06-04, 02:17 PM

We made is simple. Bonus action and gives +4 to hit to next attack. Not bad, not terrible.

Reevh

2020-06-04, 03:53 PM

Seems to me a good way to make it useful is to allow you to grant others the advantage or other benefits instead of only yourself. It could compete with cantrips for damage if you could help ensure that fighter or rogue gets all their damage swings in.

Moxxmix

2020-06-04, 04:42 PM

Ah, good ol' build a better mousetrap time.

Here's a version I don't think has been proposed before:

True Strike
Casting Time: 1 bonus action
(No concentration)

If you make an attack this turn and miss, the next attack you make before the end of your next turn may be made with advantage.

If you have it, there's basically no reason to ever not use it, but I don't think it's broken, even if you combine it with Great Weapon Master and War Caster (which is a combination that I don't think anyone would normally take). No concentration roadblock, and no interfering with action economy, other than perhaps duel wielding. (Since you have to cast it before the attack that missed, you have to choose whether to use the spell or use the offhand attack, but can't only use the spell when you miss.)

You also can't guarantee it will affect a specific attack, which avoids a certain amount of cheesing (though not all). Mainly, it's not just a +4 to your next attack, affecting all of your attacks, meaning it's just a free +4 proficiency or whatever. Rather, the above makes the spell less impactful the stronger you get, but more useful during those early levels where you're missing all the time.