Thug Roguish Archetype - PEACH

[heavyfuel]

Somewhat inspired by Bozzok from the comics, the Thug fights with brutality rather than finesse.


Bonus Proficiencies

When you choose this archetype at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with martial melee weapons, medium armor and shields

Brutal Sneak Attack

Starting at 3rd level, you learn how to deliver deadly blows regardless of the weapon you're weilding. You can use your Sneak Attack feature with any weapon you're proficient with, even if the wepon doesn't have the finesse or ranged property.

Extra Attack

Starting at 9th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Intimidating Strike

When you reach 9th level, if you hit a creature twice on your turn with melee attacks and one such attack is a Sneak Attack, you can use your bonus action to force a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Aggressive Demeanor

At 13th level, you know how to hit people where it hurts, both literally and figuratively. If you hit a creature with a melee attack, you gain advantage on Charisma (Intimidation) checks for 1 minute against that creature, and the creature has disadvantage on Charisma (Deception) checks for 1 minute.

Merciless Blows

Starting at 17th level, you become a master of oppression. Whenever you hit a creature that is Frightened of you with a melee attack, you can use your Sneak Attack feature even if you have already used it this turn. You can use the Sneak Attack feature against creatures Frightened of you even if you don't have advantage on the attack roll or if there isn't another enemy of the target within 5 feet of it as long as you're using a melee weapon and don't have disadvantage on the roll
So, what do you think?

[JNAProductions]

Bonus Proficiencies... Not sure you should give them ALL martial weapons. Maybe just one-handed ones.

Brutal Sneak Attack feels fine. Note the interaction with GWF, but that's minor enough that I'm not bothered.

Extra Attack, okay.

Intimidating Strike does not work with TWF or GWM bonus attacks, so okay. Feels fine.

Aggressive Demeanor doesn't feel very good. It's just... Not very usable in good ways. I'd recommend scrapping it and making a new feature.

Merciless Blows, as a 17th level feature, is hard to proc (only with Intimidating Strike, really), but if it works...
That's 9-10d6 extra damage PER ATTACK.

Assuming a 65% hit rate, you'll activate it about two out of every five turns. But if you do Rogue 18/Barbarian 2 (an AWESOME multiclass) you have advantage on those attacks. Granting you an ~88% hit rate, for being able to active Intimidating Strikes three out of every four turns.

All told, that means in two turns, you can easily deal 8d6+20 (four greatsword/maul attacks) +18d6 (two sneak attacks) +18d6 (two Merciless Blows) for a total of 174 points of damage. On average. Without crits. Over just two turns, with a good chance of being able to do it turn after turn.

Overall, levels 3 and 9 are fine. 13 needs to be made better, 17 needs a heavy nerfing or replacement.

[heavyfuel]

Bonus Proficiencies... Not sure you should give them ALL martial weapons. Maybe just one-handed ones.

Brutal Sneak Attack feels fine. Note the interaction with GWF, but that's minor enough that I'm not bothered.

Extra Attack, okay.

Intimidating Strike does not work with TWF or GWM bonus attacks, so okay. Feels fine.

Aggressive Demeanor doesn't feel very good. It's just... Not very usable in good ways. I'd recommend scrapping it and making a new feature.

Merciless Blows, as a 17th level feature, is hard to proc (only with Intimidating Strike, really), but if it works...
That's 9-10d6 extra damage PER ATTACK.

Assuming a 65% hit rate, you'll activate it about two out of every five turns. But if you do Rogue 18/Barbarian 2 (an AWESOME multiclass) you have advantage on those attacks. Granting you an ~88% hit rate, for being able to active Intimidating Strikes three out of every four turns.

All told, that means in two turns, you can easily deal 8d6+20 (four greatsword/maul attacks) +18d6 (two sneak attacks) +18d6 (two Merciless Blows) for a total of 174 points of damage. On average. Without crits. Over just two turns, with a good chance of being able to do it turn after turn.

Overall, levels 3 and 9 are fine. 13 needs to be made better, 17 needs a heavy nerfing or replacement.

I think giving them only one handed weapons is not good enough. Basically all it does is raise the damage from 1d6 to 1d8, an average of 1 point of damage. It also goes against the idea of the class, a rogue that wields heavy weapons. Perhaps removing the Shield proficiency is better? Though I don't think it's necessary.

Also, note that the feature doesn't grant proficiencies to all martial weapons, only martial melee weapons.

Completely agree with Aggressive Demeanor. I wanted to give an ability that said "You're excellent at obtaining information through intimidation" but I couldn't think of anything too good. I thought of giving Expertise in the skill, but by level 13 they'd probably already have it if it was something they wanted their characer to do. Any suggestions on how to implement this concept?

I hadn't noticed until you posted that the language I used means you can stack Merciless Blows and Sneak Attack on a single attack. This wasn't the intention. The intention was to allow for two instances of Sneak Attack dmg per turn, not four. I've edit it now.

[JNAProductions]

Still too good.

Scout, for reference, can double-dip on SA, but only if they target two foes. They cannot pile it on one.

[heavyfuel]

Still too good.

Scout, for reference, can double-dip on SA, but only if they target two foes. They cannot pile it on one.

But the scout can do it from round 1. And can use it with Ranged weapons.

The Thief can also double-dip once per combat. Not only double-dip, but in fact take an entire second turn. Considering combats that last more than 4 rounds are rare, I'd say the Thief gets ahead pretty much every combat.

The Thug has to get into melee and hit both attacks on round 1, then the target has to fail their wisdom save, then he has to hit twice again to gain the benefit. Using you calculations from the previous post, a 65% hit chance means a 42% chance of hitting twice. Which becomes a 21% (assuming 50% chance they make their save) of making the enemy frightened. Then you have another 42% of hitting the Frightened enemy twice.

That means you have a 8.9% chance to get a singe double-dip by round 2. If you have advantage on every single attack, the chance increases from 8.9% to 29.9%, which is a big increase, but still far from guaranteed. If you're getting advantage by dipping Barb 2, then you're only doing this at lv 19.

So I don't think the comparisson is exactly fair. The Scout's double-dip is weaker but far more straightforward. The Thief's double dip is much stronger, but limited to 1/combat. The Thug's double-dip is between the two in strength, and can theoretically be used multiple times per combat, but it requires set up and multiple dice roll to succeed.

Thug's double-dip also doesn't work against enemies immune to Frightened, and it requires even more set up against enemies with Legendary Resistances, both of which are pretty common at level 17. Even more common at lv 19.

Also, don't you think the weaker level 13 ability makes up for it?

[JNAProductions]

There’s no melee restriction.

[heavyfuel]

There’s no melee restriction.

Crap. You're right. Could've sworn I'd put the melee restriction for Initimidating Strike and Merciless Blows.

Consider them added. What do you think?

Edit: Actually added them now

[Nifft]

Hmm, what about a different mechanic:


Sucker Punch: When you miss with a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can spend a Bonus action to make an unarmed melee attack.

(Yeah it's basically the Arcane Archer's feature.)

Then give some bonuses to unarmed attacks to represent a Thug's uncouth fighting style. Don't give Shield proficiency -- you need that spare hand for stuff like Pocket Sand (Su), or the above Sucker Punch. Do consider giving perks on unarmed melee attacks.

Maybe give some extra Bonus action options which involve your free hand?


Shove: When you hit with a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can spend a Bonus action to move the target one square.

Unbalance: When you hit with a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can spend a Bonus action to impair your target. One of your allies gains Advantage on melee attacks against the target until the start of your next turn.

... or so.

[heavyfuel]

Hmm, what about a different mechanic:


Sucker Punch: When you miss with a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can spend a Bonus action to make an unarmed melee attack.

(Yeah it's basically the Arcane Archer's feature.)

Then give some bonuses to unarmed attacks to represent a Thug's uncouth fighting style. Don't give Shield proficiency -- you need that spare hand for stuff like Pocket Sand (Su), or the above Sucker Punch. Do consider giving perks on unarmed melee attacks.

Maybe give some extra Bonus action options which involve your free hand?


Shove: When you hit with a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can spend a Bonus action to move the target one square.

Unbalance: When you hit with a melee weapon attack on your turn, you can spend a Bonus action to impair your target. One of your allies gains Advantage on melee attacks against the target until the start of your next turn.

... or so.

Do you suggest we add this or replace something with it? And at what level?

[Nifft]

Do you suggest we add this or replace something with it? And at what level?

Replace Extra Attack with Sucker Punch (which is weaker).

You could give Sucker Punch at level 3, which frees up 9th level for something nice.

The level 18 ability would need to be remodeled since Sucker Punch doesn't give the opportunity to score 2 hits.

--------

But that all only makes sense if you like my image of the Thug, which is not a shield-bearing warrior but rather a punch-throwing dirty trickster.

[heavyfuel]

But that all only makes sense if you like my image of the Thug, which is not a shield-bearing warrior but rather a punch-throwing dirty trickster.

Like I said in the OP, the actual inspiration for this subclass is Bozzok, which is a heavy weapon rogue. I don't think he's ever seen wielding a shield, so I'm ok with scrapping the Shield prof. But the idea is being focused on two handed weapons and intimidation.

If the name Thug invokes a different concept, I'd be okay with a name change

[Nifft]

Like I said in the OP, the actual inspiration for this subclass is Bozzok, which is a heavy weapon rogue. I don't think he's ever seen wielding a shield, so I'm ok with scrapping the Shield prof. But the idea is being focused on two handed weapons and intimidation.

If the name Thug invokes a different concept, I'd be okay with a name change

Hmm, I don't remember his fighting style. Would head-butts, kicks, elbows and such be reasonable? If so maybe that stuff is the "unarmed strike" which he uses in addition to his big 2H weapon.

The Fear effect coming online at level 9 isn't bad but requiring two hits seems limiting, especially given the high-damage sneak attack requirement.

Do you want Str+Cha and no Dex (so Intimidate is improved)? If so maybe a thing like "Daunting Presence: If you're wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, you can replace add your Charisma bonus to your AC instead of Dexterity."


EDIT: Oh and one more thing -- IIRC, Bozzok was multi-classed in the OotS lore. That could be a perk here too? Just give the ability to sneak attack with any weapon, but give no extra proficiency. Then you'd want to be a multi-class Fighter/Thug or similar to get the full benefit, but additionally a single-classed Elf Thug or Dwarf Thug might have a reason for favoring a racial weapon, which is nice.

[heavyfuel]

Hmm, I don't remember his fighting style. Would head-butts, kicks, elbows and such be reasonable? If so maybe that stuff is the "unarmed strike" which he uses in addition to his big 2H weapon.

The Fear effect coming online at level 9 isn't bad but requiring two hits seems limiting, especially given the high-damage sneak attack requirement.

Do you want Str+Cha and no Dex (so Intimidate is improved)? If so maybe a thing like "Daunting Presence: If you're wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, you can replace add your Charisma bonus to your AC instead of Dexterity."


EDIT: Oh and one more thing -- IIRC, Bozzok was multi-classed in the OotS lore. That could be a perk here too? Just give the ability to sneak attack with any weapon, but give no extra proficiency. Then you'd want to be a multi-class Fighter/Thug or similar to get the full benefit, but additionally a single-classed Elf Thug or Dwarf Thug might have a reason for favoring a racial weapon, which is nice.

Actually checked the comic. Bozzok is shown with a looks like a bastard sword and light shield, which he later drops to wield the sword in both hands. Whether he's a multiclass character or a straight up Fighter with the Thug and Sneak Attac variants, will never be known.

Limiting to two successful hits was pretty much the intention. It has the "always on" feel, but it's somewhat difficult to trigger.

I like the idea of making the Thug less MAD by giving Daunting Presence. Maybe remove the medium armor proficiency then.

[Nifft]

One other thing I can suggest is to figure out if some benefits could be turned into a Feat, and make him with multiclassing + a feat.

But...

Honestly I don't like this as much as the 3.5e Thug (+Sneak Attack) variant because the 3.5e version plays like it should from 1st level, while the 5e variant can't do its thing until 3rd level at the earliest.

I wonder if it'd be better as a whole new 5e base class.

[JNAProductions]

One other thing I can suggest is to figure out if some benefits could be turned into a Feat, and make him with multiclassing + a feat.

But...

Honestly I don't like this as much as the 3.5e Thug (+Sneak Attack) variant because the 3.5e version plays like it should from 1st level, while the 5e variant can't do its thing until 3rd level at the earliest.

I wonder if it'd be better as a whole new 5e base class.

Like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?566793-Enforcer-A-Strongman-s-Rogue)?

[Nifft]

Like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?566793-Enforcer-A-Strongman-s-Rogue)?

No, the comic apparently shows Bozzok using a shield.

[heavyfuel]

Honestly I don't like this as much as the 3.5e Thug (+Sneak Attack) variant because the 3.5e version plays like it should from 1st level, while the 5e variant can't do its thing until 3rd level at the earliest.

Well, the Sneak Attack Thug Fighter thing is just a theory. I can totally see Bozzok as a Rogue X/Fighter 2, or Rogue X/SAT Fighter 1 (just dipping for 1 SA die and proficiencies)


Like this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?566793-Enforcer-A-Strongman-s-Rogue)?

While the class does fit the concept somewhat, it's not exactly what I'm looking for. Besides what Nifft has already pointed out, there's also no Intimidation focus on the class.

[Nifft]

Well, the Sneak Attack Thug Fighter thing is just a theory. I can totally see Bozzok as a Rogue X/Fighter 2, or Rogue X/SAT Fighter 1 (just dipping for 1 SA die and proficiencies)

Yeah, and additionally Bozzok is high-level when we see him, so maybe he did go through some kind of awkward build adolescence before his features came together.

So if your concept of him only comes together around level 17, and he's level 17 in the comic, then that's potentially fine.


To me, the value of the class would be for lower-powered "street gang" style games, so I'm interested in low-level viability, but that's just me.

So let's see, would this be too front-loaded? (Relative to Battlemaster in specific.)

Level 3:
- Thuggish Brutality -- You can Sneak Attack with any weapon, but gain no extra proficiency.
- Daunting Presence Add Charisma to AC instead of Dexterity while wearing light armor, you can use shields if you're proficient.
- Dirty Fighting -- If you take the Attack action and miss, you can make a follow-up unarmed strike -- a knee, a headbutt, a shield-bash, a pommel-punch, whatever -- as a Bonus action.

Level 9:
- Intimidating Strike -- If you hit a creature with your Dirty Fighting bonus action melee attack, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Level 13:
- Aggressive Demeanor -- At 13th level, you know how to hit people where it hurts, both literally and figuratively. When you succeed on a Charisma (intimidation) check against a creature, that creature has disadvantage on Charisma (deception) checks against you until you complete a long rest. When you hit an enemy with a Sneak Attack as part of your Attack action, the target suffers disadvantage on its next saving throw before the end of your next turn.

Level 17:
- Merciless Blows -- When you take the Attack action and hit with a melee weapon Sneak Attack, you can spend your bonus action to make two more melee weapon attacks. You deliver your full Sneak Attack damage to the first one of these bonus attacks which hits. After using this feature, you can't use it again until you complete a long rest or a short rest.

[JNAProductions]

Yeah, and additionally Bozzok is high-level when we see him, so maybe he did go through some kind of awkward build adolescence before his features came together.

So if your concept of him only comes together around level 17, and he's level 17 in the comic, then that's potentially fine.


To me, the value of the class would be for lower-powered "street gang" style games, so I'm interested in low-level viability, but that's just me.

So let's see, would this be too front-loaded? (Relative to Battlemaster in specific.)

Level 3:
- Thuggish Brutality -- You can Sneak Attack with any weapon, but gain no extra proficiency.
- Daunting Presence Add Charisma to AC instead of Dexterity while wearing light armor, you can use shields if you're proficient.
- Dirty Fighting -- If you take the Attack action and miss, you can make a follow-up unarmed strike -- a knee, a headbutt, a shield-bash, a pommel-punch, whatever -- as a Bonus action.

Level 9:
- Intimidating Strike -- If you hit a creature with your Dirty Fighting bonus action melee attack, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Level 13:
- Aggressive Demeanor -- At 13th level, you know how to hit people where it hurts, both literally and figuratively. When you succeed on a Charisma (intimidation) check against a creature, that creature has disadvantage on Charisma (deception) checks against you until you complete a long rest. When you hit an enemy with a Sneak Attack as part of your Attack action, the target suffers disadvantage on its next saving throw before the end of your next turn.

Level 17:
- Merciless Blows -- When you take the Attack action and hit with a melee weapon Sneak Attack, you can spend your bonus action to make two more melee weapon attacks. You deliver your full Sneak Attack damage to the first one of these bonus attacks which hits. After using this feature, you can't use it again until you complete a long rest or a short rest.

Intimidating Strike ENCOURAGES you to miss. That's not good design.

[Nifft]

Intimidating Strike ENCOURAGES you to miss. That's not good design.

That's fair.

How would you write it?

[heavyfuel]

Yeah, and additionally Bozzok is high-level when we see him, so maybe he did go through some kind of awkward build adolescence before his features came together.

So if your concept of him only comes together around level 17, and he's level 17 in the comic, then that's potentially fine.


To me, the value of the class would be for lower-powered "street gang" style games, so I'm interested in low-level viability, but that's just me.

So let's see, would this be too front-loaded? (Relative to Battlemaster in specific.)

Level 3:
- Thuggish Brutality -- You can Sneak Attack with any weapon, but gain no extra proficiency.
- Daunting Presence Add Charisma to AC instead of Dexterity while wearing light armor, you can use shields if you're proficient.
- Dirty Fighting -- If you take the Attack action and miss, you can make a follow-up unarmed strike -- a knee, a headbutt, a shield-bash, a pommel-punch, whatever -- as a Bonus action.

Level 9:
- Intimidating Strike -- If you hit a creature with your Dirty Fighting bonus action melee attack, the target must make a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be Frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Level 13:
- Aggressive Demeanor -- At 13th level, you know how to hit people where it hurts, both literally and figuratively. When you succeed on a Charisma (intimidation) check against a creature, that creature has disadvantage on Charisma (deception) checks against you until you complete a long rest. When you hit an enemy with a Sneak Attack as part of your Attack action, the target suffers disadvantage on its next saving throw before the end of your next turn.

Level 17:
- Merciless Blows -- When you take the Attack action and hit with a melee weapon Sneak Attack, you can spend your bonus action to make two more melee weapon attacks. You deliver your full Sneak Attack damage to the first one of these bonus attacks which hits. After using this feature, you can't use it again until you complete a long rest or a short rest.

That's really cool! I really like most changes.

I do think it's clumsy to allow the archetype to benefit from a shield but not give proficiency. I thing it's against 5e's design philosophy to encourage multiclass like this (plus, I really don't want to let go of the two-handed proficiency :smalltongue:)

Maybe we can make it less front loaded by moving Dirty Fighting to 9th, and solve the problem with Initmidating Strike in one swing. How’s this?


Dirty Fighting: When you reach 9th level, you learn how to make an unexpected attack -- a knee, a headbutt, a shield-bash, a pommel-punch, or something of the kind -- as a bonus action. Treat this as an unarmed attack. If you have already attacked the target this turn and missed, you make this attack with advantage. Once you use this ability against an opponent, you may not use it against the same opponent for 24 hours. (or maybe something like Cha uses per long rest?)

Intimidating Strike: At 9th level, if you hit a creature with both a melee attack and your dirty fighting attack on your turn, you can use force a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

This allows players a choice. Use Dirty Fighting after you missed the first attack to gain an attack with advantage so you don't waste your turn, or use DF afterwards and maybe trigger Intimidating Strike

Love the change to Aggressive Demeanor.

Merciless Blows being limited per rest works so you can't double dip all the time. Maybe allow 2 uses per rest instead of 1?

[Nifft]

Dirty Fighting: When you reach 9th level, you learn how to make an unexpected attack -- a knee, a headbutt, a shield-bash, a pommel-punch, or something of the kind -- as a bonus action. Treat this as an unarmed attack. If you have already attacked the target this turn and missed, you make this attack with advantage. Once you use this ability against an opponent, you may not use it against the same opponent for 24 hours. (or maybe something like Cha uses per long rest?)

Intimidating Strike: At 9th level, if you hit a creature with both a melee attack and your dirty fighting attack on your turn, you can use force a Wisdom saving throw (DC equal to 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Charisma modifier) or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

This allows players a choice. Use Dirty Fighting after you missed the first attack to gain an attack with advantage so you don't waste your turn, or use DF afterwards and maybe trigger Intimidating Strike
Many creatures are immune to Fear, so this choice becomes a no-brainer and has the same problem as my initial Intimidating Strike -- the player wants to miss the first attack, because the second attack is so much better (in this case because advantage = Sneak Attack).

You could do the bonus-attack-on-miss and let the Fear apply on any sneak attack -- maybe have the Fear usable Cha times per day (long rest recharge) with a duration of 1 minute.

Then there's no incentive to miss the 1st attack, and you have "chunkier" Fear which might work for a whole combat instead of randomly round-by-round.